Unlocking Us with Brené Brown - Brené on Ask Me Anything, Part 1 of 2

Episode Date: July 8, 2020

I said, “Ask Me Anything,” and the Unlocking Us community came through with the tough questions. To be honest, I thought I’d get some easy, fun ones — but no, all deep-end questions. In fact, we received so many thoughtful and tough AMA questions from listeners that it took us two episodes to cover the most popular topics, including “fake news,” disappointment versus self-pity, religion and shame, when something is shame-worthy, and how parents can build shame resilience in children. I also discuss what TV series and films I think do a great job of accurately capturing emotions and the human experience, and I answer my own 10 rapid-fire questions. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support for this show comes from Macy's. Fall is in full swing, and it's the perfect time to refresh your home and wardrobe for the sweater weather with new finds from Macy's. From October 9th to October 16th, get amazing deals on shoes and boots, on sale at 30-40% off. And you can shop new styles during the Macy's Fab Fall Sale, from October 9th to October 14th. Shop oversized knits, warm jackets, and trendy charm necklaces and get 25% to 60% off on top brands when you do. Plus, get great deals on cozy home accessories from October 18th to October 27th. Shop in-store or online at macys.com. What software do you use at work? The answer to that question is probably more complicated than you want it to be.

The average U.S. company deploys more than 100 apps, and ideas about the work we do can be radically changed by the tools we use to do it. So what is enterprise software anyway? What is productivity software? How will AI affect both? And how are these tools changing the way we use our computers to make stuff, communicate, and plan for the future? In this three-part special series, Decoder is surveying the IT landscape presented by AWS. Check it out wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everybody. I'm Renee Brown, and this is Unlocking Us. And this is part one of those. Some folks who live outside of the US had

no problem leaving a message. Some folks really struggled to do it. So when we do it again, we'll make sure that we have an easier way for you to leave your question. I really thought that y'all were going to leave me kind of like fun questions, but no, there's no, there are a couple of lighthearted fun questions and they're not even that lighthearted and fun. Mostly you just came with really hard, complex, layered questions. And some of them I don't have the expertise to answer. It really helped us lay out kind of topics we want to cover. We're finding the right people to talk to about them. Some of them I can answer partly.

I can pull one question out of like maybe three or four questions that are embedded in one message. So what we're going to do is divide this up into two podcasts, one this week and then one later on, just because there are so many questions. message. So what we're going to do is divide this up into two podcasts, one this week and then one later on, just because there are so many questions. And I think because we put out the call for questions for the AMA at the end of the July 1st podcast on shame and accountability, a lot of the questions are about shame and you guessed it, accountability. So we'll divide it up and we'll jump right in. So we're going to listen to I think four or five today and we'll do a podcast for the second set of questions. Again, appreciate all those softball lobs. No, there

were none, none, all really hard questions. But I appreciate the critical thinking. I really do. I'm so grateful for this Unlocking Us community, for people leaning into real stuff, like hard, real stuff. I'm here for it. And the first person we're going to hear from is Jacob. Okay, here we are, AMA part one. My name is Jacob, and I'm from Seattle, Washington. Hey, Brene. So this might be too political of a question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. So the rise of quote unquote fake news has created this strange situation where I feel like people feel empowered to choose what is and isn't

true for them. And it seems like a lot of people automatically just believe whatever it is that makes them feel good, and they disbelieve whatever it is that goes against their pre-existing narrative or what makes them not feel good. And this seems like an issue with emotional regulation more than an issue of being educated, but I do still think it's an issue with critical thinking. So given kind of how your work, it seems, is really focused on helping people with emotional regulation, I'm kind of just wondering, like, how do you think your work could actually be used in the fight against disinformation? What's interesting to me about Jacob's question is the answer to it is

actually not controversial, but really there's a lot of conflict about the answer. You know, why are we vulnerable to propaganda is a way, I guess, to phrase it that would be in line with how some cognitive psychologists, people who are really studying this, would talk about it. They would talk about the vulnerability and the susceptibility to misinformation. So there seems to be two camps in the research world. One camp says people are susceptible because it's kind of confirmation bias. They want information that proves their political opinions. They don't think critically. They just want confirmation of their own beliefs. So there's that camp looking for confirmation of their political righteousness. And then the other camp of researchers would say that it's a lack of intellectual curiosity or a lack of skill

of critical thinking. So it's not that people are looking for confirmation of their beliefs, but they don't know how to challenge what they read, or they're not willing to challenge what they read because it takes a lot of effort. When I think about Jacob's question, in the frame of my research, I have a different perspective that maybe, I don't know, maybe pulls on both the lack of intellectual inquiry or critical thinking and the confirmation bias, just wanting to confirm what you already believe, which is in heightened times. Again, a reminder for those of you who haven't listened to another podcast where I've mentioned this, but I coincidentally started my research six months before 9-11. And so I've been watching how over the last 20 years, how fear has changed us, how something that didn't exist in some ways now is a huge driver,

at least for majority population, for white, middle-class, straight population that never was accustomed to living with a constant layer of terror and film over our lives. Now, of course, if you are a black person, or you are an immigrant, or you are in this country and our beliefs and our actions that are perpetuated by those beliefs cause you to live in terror, which we're seeing that clearly many people for the first time. 9-11 was not a new feeling. And in fact, I'll just tell you, this is getting off your thing, Jacob, but it's related. I was teaching in a graduate college of social work when 9-11 happened,

and we had to have very, very difficult conversations about race and violence and police brutality and living in fear, you know, on 9-12 basically, because that experience of living in fear was so new to some people and so consistently traumatic for other people who not only lived in that fear, but were raised by parents who were raised by parents who were raised by parents who were raised by parents who were raised by parents who lived in that fear and taught around the collective trauma and what they call the talk, the talk that you have to give your children when their existence, because of the color of their skin, their faith beliefs makes them unsafe. And so what I would say is after 9-11, there was a new level of collective trauma. And one thing that I saw,

which made things even more dangerous for people who were not in the majority culture of white, straight, Christian, middle class, was this phenomenon, and I write about it a little bit in Daring Greatly, of when people are afraid, if you can give them someone to blame for their fear and you can sell them the snake oil of certainty in times of deep vulnerability and uncertainty, we will consume and believe almost anything you tell us. It's so funny if all these questions had one thing in common from white supremacy to Jacob's question about fake news. We don't know how to be in pain and uncertainty. We don't know how to be productive in our vulnerability. And the many ways that we tap out of our pain and our fear is literally having our knee on the throat of other people. And so when I think about my own, you know, I'm a critical thinker for a living. And, you know, trained to think critically, trained to pull apart every argument, including the ones I love and the ones that make me feel better and the ones I want to wrap around me

like a blanket. When I'm in enough fear and I'm in enough scarcity, I will go down the, my own version of fake news. Like if I in the news like this blood type lessens your chance of COVID. Or if you take this vitamin, I'm like, Steve will get this box of blood testing equipment and supplements. And he said, what's going on? I said, well, I heard this news story. And he said, Brene, step back. And I get it. But step back for a minute. So we're all susceptible to information that delivers us from pain. And any news or information or proclamation or snake oil even that delivers us from uncertainty, fear, pain, shame. Our smarts are going to be overridden by the human need to tap out of that.

And so I think that's why when you listen to a lot of cable news, when you dissect it and you really listen to it, every news story has a blaming component. things that have nothing to do with people's choices sometimes. But everything has, here's what's happening, here's why you should be afraid, and here's to blame. And that's scarcity culture. And we're so deep in scarcity culture. Holy shit, I am in such deep scarcity culture around COVID. But scarcity culture, I write this in Daring Greatly, is you know you're in a scarcity culture when the conversation really hinges on what should we be terrified or afraid of right now and whose fault is it. And so in scarcity culture, I make up that there's a huge correlation between fear and scarcity and pain and belief of propaganda. But I'll dig in more. Maybe we'll bring in some of the folks who are studying it and ask them questions. That's one of the reasons I love this AMA.

So thank you, Jacob, for your question. Okay, let's listen to this question from Chuck. Hello, my name is Chuck, and I'm from League City. First off, Brene, do you play pickleball? Okay, my second question is, I was super excited about something a couple days ago. It didn't work out, and so I was experiencing disappointment. I pride myself in being emotionally sober. So I thought I was feeling it, but six hours later, as I was still feeling it,

I missed some connections with some people because they asked me how it went. And I didn't want to answer them because I was feeling my disappointment. Well, the next day I was kind of reviewing my day. And I was actually in, I believe, self-pity pretty quickly after. But anyway, here's my question. God, I hope this makes sense. Can you tell me the difference between the feeling of disappointment and self-pity? I think that's my question and I hope it makes sense. Thank you, Brene. I love you. Okay. So Chuck has a two-parter. The first part, way easier than the second part. So the first part, do I play pickleball? Brand new obsession. I mean, complete obsession. I'll tell you why. We are big time

Foursquare players. We will play Foursquare, just the four of us, for 10 years we've played Foursquare, maybe longer than that. So much so that I bought a chalk outline thing that like, when you make a field for sports, you know, you push that thing and chalk comes out of the bottom of it in the straight line. We had one, I thought it was temporary, but I made a four square court in our street and it was permanent. And so it was there for years. It was great for us. I'm sure our neighbors thought it was iffy, but I was like, hey, this is our country club baby right here, Foursquare. And we're huge Foursquare players. And we have like a whole set of rules, you know, no cherry bombs, no chicken feet, no

snake eyes, rookie cookie only once. Meaning if you've never played, you get one round where everyone's taking it easy. But then after that, you're on your own. But the four of us would play four square, me, Steve, Ellen, and Charlie. And by our second game, there'd be a line of 10 kids and some adults that are like, we won in the game. So first person out, the next person would come in. So I'm also a huge tennis player and I love badminton. So when I first, my friend Lauren told me about pickleball. And so I looked it up, of course, as all people would, because it involves a ball, which means

I'm interested in it. And pickleball is like badminton meets tennis meets the most important sport possibly in my life, ping pong. I have a ping pong table at work. I have a ping pong table at home that's in my living room. I take ping pong. I couldn't write a book without ping pong. So new obsession. I'll let you know how it goes, check, but I'm so excited. Second question, a little bit tougher. The difference between the feelings of disappointment

and self-pity. So for this one, I had to think a little bit about what is self-pity, what is disappointment, to figure out how they're different. And I went to Rhonda, who is our director of research. And right now we're doing this, I mean, like the most ginormous ass, that's a technical research measurement term, ginormous ass, literature review on all these emotions and cognitions and how they work and what the difference is and how they're the same. So if you look at the research on self-pity, man, we do not like self-pity. So I'm looking at research. Researcher Geller says that being accused of self-pity is one of the worst criticisms we can receive. This is from a 2006 study because it implies that the person's not willing to or making

attempts to improve their current situation. Gerdes states that self-pity is associated with whining and victimization. Most people experiencing difficulty even if they wish to be helped, loathe to be pitied. Stober, another researcher, points out that self-pity is often used as a bid for attention, empathy, or help, and calls it a strategy doomed to fail because people who indulge in self-pity ultimately tend to be socially rejected. So I think there is a real belief among researchers who study pity that self-pity is an ineffective coping strategy. It seems to higher levels of self-pity seem to be positively correlated or associated with

internalized anger, emotional loneliness, a belief that life is controlled by chance. It really seems to be not correlated with the sense of agency that I can handle things. I think when I was talking to Rhonda about it and we were trying to figure out, you know, we're careful when we talk about differences because as researchers, you know, we want to see the data before we talk about a difference. So here's what my research gut says. Disappointment is about something specific. I'm disappointed that I didn't get the promotion. I'm disappointed that this did not work out. Where self-pity is more of a global assessment. Even if it starts as something specific, it's more of a global assessment. In AA rooms, we often hear something that we associate

with kind of being in the throes of addiction or what we would call terminal uniqueness, like my life, my experience, everything about me is very unique, very unique, which there are unique things about us, of course, but when it comes to some things, we have a lot more in common than we don't. But this idea of disappointments about something specific where self-pity becomes a global assessment of circumstances, like I can't catch a break, nothing ever goes my way, I think we would affiliate self-pity with the poor me's. I also think that there's a perception that self-pity can be manipulative. And this is interesting because now we're getting into less research gut, more research research. So one of the things that we studied when we were studying shame is this idea of empathy

versus sympathy. Empathy is I feel with you while I may not have had that experience, I can connect to the emotion that you're feeling based on that experience. So while I may not know what it's like to get fired, I know grief and rage and fear. I know the emotions that underpin the experience and that's how I'm connecting to you around this. And so when we're in disappointment, I think we look for empathy. I think we look for, I just had something really disappointing happen. That's a true story. I just had something in the last week, really disappointing happen. And I was feeling everything from pissed off to grief to maybe not shame, but probably embarrassment that I'd gotten my hopes up.

And then I was disappointed when I can go into that thing where I should have known better than to get my hopes up, but I'm a get my hopes up kind of person. And I remember just texting Steve like, I'm pissed. Five seconds later, I'm so sad. Five seconds later, now I'm more pissed. And his response was empathy, like, God, I get it. I'm actually pissed too. And we compare kind of experiences where we're looking to make a bid for empathy with experiences where we're sympathy seeking, where I would say to Steve, God, I'm pissed and I'm sad and I'm just, I'm disappointed and I can't believe it. Nothing, you know, nothing ever falls the way I want it to. And then Steve would say, God, I get it. I'm, you know, I really, I'm so sorry. And I know you really, you know what? You didn't get it. You don't get it.

No one knows how I feel. That now we're moving into sympathy seeking. Now I don't want empathy and connection. I want sympathy and validation that every body has it better than me and no one gets it. And let me tell you, when I first started studying shame, I'm really hoarse. I don't sound like this because I'm trying to sound like Suzanne Plachette, for those of you on the age range to know who she is, sexy voice, Suzanne Plachette, nor have I been smoking a pack of cigarettes a day since COVID, but that I've been fantasizing. Maybe this is what happens when you just fantasize about smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. I'm just kind of hoarse today. So that's one to give you a little caveat. But when I first started researching shame, I interviewed a lot of mental health professionals. And when I would talk about sympathy seeking,

these well-trained empathy givers, holders of space, nothing got these people pissed off as much as this idea of sympathy seeking. They're like, oh my God, the sympathy seeking. Like if you're in group and you've got someone that's sympathy seeking and everyone gets pissed off and starts rolling their eyes, then you have to really manage the room and it's so hard. Or if you've got a client who's a sympathy seeker, it's just so manipulative and there's no winning, there's no helping. And I was like caught off guard by the reaction people had to sympathy seeking.

But I feel the same way because when someone tells you something really hard and then you try to be empathic, when you try to show compassion and the response is you don't get it, you could never get it. No one has it as bad as me. You're like, yeah, you're right. I'm out. And it's interesting because in group, when we wrote a curriculum based on shame resilience, I was co-facilitating a group with a clinician, a therapist, because again, I'm a researcher.

I have my master's degree in social work and my PhD, but I am not a clinician. So I was co-facilitating a psychoeducational group with a clinician who's a masterful clinician. And I saw her do this thing around sympathy seeking, which was so interesting because someone in the group said, and this was hard. This was a group, domestic violence, sexual assault. We were doing this at the Houston Area Women's Center. This was a group of incest survivors, very tough. One of the women in the group said, no one gets it. No one understands me. Everyone's got it worse. I mean, everyone's got it better than me, and then started stacking the list of

things that she was up against. I masterfully watched this clinician who is a good friend and just a bad ass say this loving accountability. I hear what you're saying that no one can understand. What I'm experiencing is a group of people who want to understand, a group of people who want to be with you in it. So would you be willing to help us be in it with you? It was so interesting because what we found in the research is that sympathy seeking is very related to shame. When we're in shame, what do we feel alone? So when we're sympathy seeking, what do we feel like? It's just me. I thought it was just me. So as she started unpacking all these things that she was ashamed of that made her feel alone, that made her feel like no one would ever get it, and she saw knowing looks and

she felt empathy by connection to not experience but emotion, she started coming out of the shame and moved from sympathy seeking to empathy seeking. And so I, this is such a long answer, but these are complex questions. So Chuck, there is a big difference between I think disappointment and self-pity. I also think, and this is really important, the action tendency, meaning a key element of all emotions and cognitions as well is the action tendency. What is the motivation? What do you do next from this emotion? What does it propel you to do? The action tendency with disappointment is to do better, is to move through it, think through it. I think, this is gut researcher here, the action tendency of self-pity is to seek sympathy, not specifically to move through it, to get through it, to learn from it, or to do better.

Check. Strong preference for the pickleball question, dude. Oh my God, I really am going to give up, dude. I thought I should give up, dude, at 40. Still with me at 50. 60 is going to be the key non-dude decade. About a year ago, two twin brothers in Wisconsin discovered kind of by accident that mini golf might be the perfect spectator sport for the TikTok era. Meanwhile, a YouTuber in Brooklyn found himself less interested in tech YouTube and more interested in making coffee. This month on The Verge Cast, we're telling stories about these people who tried to find new ways to make content, new ways to build businesses around that content, and new ways to make content about those businesses.

Our series is called How to Make It in the Future, and it's all this month on The Vergecast, wherever you get podcasts. So you've arrived. You head to the brasserie, then the terrace. Cocktail? Don't mind if I do. You raise your glass to another guest because you both know the holiday's just beginning. And you're only in Terminal 3.

Welcome to Virgin Atlantic's unique upper-class clubhouse experience where you'll feel like you've arrived before you've taken off. Virgin Atlantic. See the world differently. Okay, let's listen to Matthew's question. Hey, Renee and her team. This is Matthew in Los Angeles. Deeply appreciate all the work you do. I love the distinction between shame and guilt that you just did in the previous episode. And that shame is not a tool for social justice. I'm curious about the distinction of how we clarify the historical atrocities and how we shame movements of control and of evil. That there's zero tolerance when we talk about Nazism

in Germany and about the atrocities that were committed, but that America does not have that same sort of zero tolerance when it comes to the sins of slavery and enslavement and dehumanization and subjugation and discrimination. So how do we divide, as they say, the history and heritage that continue to prop up these systems of hatred and allow it to continue to exist. When does something become worthy of shame? Because my aunt said something very specific about that America has a problem with shame.

And yet when we look internationally, we are very quick to completely penalize and title and name shame for when we see evil done elsewhere, but not necessarily within our own history, our own borders, our own meaning. There's so many questions embedded in this and so many people way more qualified to answer the majority of them. I'm thinking about my conversation with Ibram Kendi, with Austin Channing Brown. I'm going to take one question. I played all the questions because I think they're all important to give context, but I'm going to pull one thread out of here, which is when does something become worthy of shame?

So I believe that, and I don't know because I haven't talked to Matthew, but I believe under that question is the presupposition that shame can change behavior in a good way. It's just unkind or too painful to use. And if it's not, I'm going to address this anyway and then go to the other things I think could be under the question. So I don't believe shame. If you've listened to the podcast before this on shame and accountability, you'll know that I don't believe in shame as a social justice tool. And as I've talked to many activists from Tarana Burke to again, Ibram Kendi, Austin Channing Brown, but many others across many other issues, I've never heard anyone say that they thought shame was a good social justice tool, honestly. Not a single person, no matter what the issue is. So it's not that I think shame is too painful to use or too dangerous to use. I just don't think it's effective. And I got to tell you, and this

is not something I'm proud of, to be honest with you, but if I thought, knowing how painful shame is, if I thought it could change some of the things that we're facing today in the world, I would probably say release the kraken. I really, I think I would just say the greater good outweighs the pain of some individuals who are wreaking havoc, dehumanizing, you know, people are dying. So if I thought we could shame people out of police brutality, if I thought we could shame people into wearing masks and social distancing, I might go for, you know, I don't know. I'd have to think about it, but my gut would be, I'd say, well, you got a way common good here maybe. I don't know. But that, this is just not the case. So the intellectual ethics exercise is not worth it. Pointless, I guess. But I don't think shame is an effective tool. I think shame is really related to the first question around fake news.

We're so hardwired to leap out of pain and discomfort and vulnerability and uncertainty and fear that shame is often the first thing we grab. So you say something that I disagree with, it causes me rage or pain, and I just shame the shit out of you. I belittle, humiliate you, but nothing changes. Nothing changes. Just the world is just a little bit bleaker, a little grosser, a little bit more dehumanized. I think accountability is what we don't do because interestingly, accountability is hard in cultures of vulnerability because accountability itself is vulnerable. It's just more vulnerability. It's just more uncertainty and it's a shit ton of work. You know, for me to hold you accountable means I need to say,

here's what this experience is doing to me. Here's what's not acceptable. Here's what's got to change. Here's how it has to change. Here's what it has to change by. And here are the consequences of not changing it. So accountability is hard. And when you're dealing with people, trying to hold people who have more power than you accountable, shame becomes a much easier weapon to grab. Because it'd be one thing if I was the CEO of a company and I was like, here's the new rule around accountability. Everyone has to do this by this date. This is what it's going to look like.

This is what it looks like if you don't do it. Here are the consequences. Because I have the authority to do that and the power to do that. That's why accountability, when we're in a power over situation, looks like protest. It looks like protest. It always has. It always will. Accountability is the tool. And when you don't have power or when the people you're fighting use power over instead of power with and power to, accountability becomes very difficult. It doesn't make shame any more effective. And here's the thing that really is just the worst.

Then the quickest handle you grab is shame. Then all of a sudden you're shaming, you're humiliating, you're name calling, you're canceling, you're doing all of these things. And now the debate shifts right in the middle of it from the real injustice to your behavior of using shame. It's just, it doesn't work. It doesn't work. For example, if, I mean, let me just take a really micro example, because I think it's easier to understand when we use really micro examples and then we can apply them to macro systems or even mesosystems, systems working with systems. are hurt and I see something really shaming to him. It doesn't matter if he did something really crappy to start this fight. It doesn't matter if he was disrespectful or did something hurtful because now I've said something that's cruel and scarring and mean, probably used a vulnerability

that he has shared with me against him. And now it doesn't matter what happened in the beginning. Now the whole vortex of what's happening is on me and not in a good way. And so that's why it just doesn't, shame doesn't work. Cruelty doesn't work. The example that you, that, that Matthew used around Germany and Nazism is really interesting because you know I I heard from people on Twitter I had I did a Facebook live after the violence in Charlottesville and after the neo-nazi white guys in polos and khakis with I don't know tiki torches I don't yeah marched and I did a Facebook Live around privilege and speaking out against that and why it was important

and how there were no nice people, like that statement from Trump. And it was interesting because some of the people that DMed me and commented were German, and they were just in shock that Americans would allow that display of Nazism. Because in Germany, just the presence of neo-Nazis, the paraphernalia, the swastikas, those kind of things, the Hitler salute, the statues, Holocaust denial even is illegal. And there's even a legal concept

that you can't even incite hatred. So any group of people inciting hatred against another group could go to jail. So I don't know. So to say, well, the Germans are on top of the neo-Nazi movement and some of this dehumanization and hatred because they use shame, I don't know that that's accurate as saying there are laws in place and there's accountability. Now, this is not without controversy, right? Because it's a legal strategy. And a legal strategy is an accountability strategy, where a shame strategy, which is name calling and make you feel bad about yourself. If all we did with drunk drivers was shame them, as opposed to like take away their driver's license, it costs a gajillion dollars, you go to jail. I don't know that that works. I don't know. But

the problem with a legalistic strategy is who is determining what's hateful, and then we get into a civil liberties issue, who's in power. If we had something like that now, there's no doubt in my mind that this administration would say Black Lives Matter. There doesn't have to be a doubt in my mind because Trump said that a Black Lives Matter monument that is going up in New York was hateful. So the problem about an accountability strategy that's legal is – a legalistic strategy, I guess, is civil liberties. So I don't know that we can say shame is working here. I honestly, if you look at outcome data, and I'm not, I don't have the most current, but it's something I looked into probably seven or eight years ago.

One of the things that's really interesting is looking at public health models to see what works for change there. And in public health models around successful public health changes like teeth brushing and seatbelt wearing, that might give us some insight. Because police brutality is a public health issue, and it should be looked at as a public health issue and funded like a public health issue. Dehumanization, hate crimes, terrorism. I absolutely believe they should be classified like that. Acts of white supremacy, terrorism, funded, researched, tracked, very much like the Southern Poverty Law Center.

So I think there are models where we have seen successful communal change. I don't know of any of those that have been shame-based. Because a lot of people in our culture today, if you shame them, will almost perceive that as proud moments of martyrdom too. Like, look, I've been called this by these people, which makes me a hero with my people. You know, I just, it doesn't work. There's no accountability. There's no change. There's no policy. There's no financial investment. I just don't think it works. But Matthew, lots of, lots of questions in here in your questions. Okay, let's listen to the question from Anne, who is in Charlottesville. Hi, my name is Anne. I'm calling from Charlottesville,

Virginia. I am 24 years old, and I identify as a gay woman. My question is, what role does religion play in the incessant shaming and guilting of LGBTQ plus people? And how can that type of force be resisted or combated when religion is often considered to be absolute truth? Thank you. So this idea of, you know, what role does religion play in shaming LGBTQ plus people? Shame is a tool of social control. So let's go back. One question I get asked all the time is, is shame ever useful? So if we look at shame from an evolutionary biological perspective, it served a purpose. Communal living was necessary for survival.

You did something that threatened the community's safety. You were shunned, pushed out of the community, and the community became safer, and you became dead. If you look at evolution, perhaps, yes. There is still this idea that someone not conforming to communal rules is a threat to the community. Now, as we've evolved and our brains have evolved and our capacity for thinking and emotion has evolved, it has become a sledgehammer on a thumbtack. You cannot

use it and it doesn't work. We all the time as a tool of social control. And then you get God on your side, or you get the Bible on your side, or you get whatever doctrine on your side. I mean, then it's not even an anvil on a thumbtack. Then it's like, you know, a cannon against a thumbtack. And so one of the things that I've seen in the research, because we, we did a lot of research early on when we were studying shame around shame and religion and spirituality. And what we found is that it's very interesting. People often asked, okay, what denomination is most shame prone? Who uses the most shame? So all the Catholics thought it was the Catholics. The Jews thought it was the Jews.

But the Southern Baptists were actually very sure that it was the Southern Baptists. They were like, look, we know that you're hearing from the Catholics and the Jews, but it's us for sure. We know already. So one of the things that we found is that no denomination emerged as more shaming than others. However, shame did cluster by congregation. So some churches were specifically more shaming than others, which means that it's the people using shame, not necessarily how they use doctrine, how they use texts, how they use their power. So we definitely found clusters around

congregations. And those clusters around congregations were across every denomination, Muslim, Catholic, Jewish, Baptist, mainline Protestant, across the board. So to me, when we talk about religion, shame is a very man-made part of that. And I use that word specifically. It is very much how men in power decided to add to their power by using God in their shame crew. And what was interesting to me about this as well as the majority of people, I think it was over 80% of people healing from religious shame wounds found healing in spirituality. They, however, did often leave their denomination and their church. So there is a long history that goes back from the beginning, I'm sure, to the beginning of time around live can be judged as holy, good, or divine by anybody but ourselves and our relationship with our God, how we define our God.

So the stories we make up about who we are based on what we heard growing up and seeing growing up, Very dangerous narratives that we spend a lot of our lifetimes unraveling, but it is worth it because on the other side of getting to the truth of that story is your inherent worthiness and lovability. Okay, y'all. Last question for the podcast episode today is from Sheila. Let's listen to her request. Hi, Brene. It's Sheila from Denver.

And I would really love it if you would answer your 10-question quickfire with your own personal answers during the AMA episode. Thanks. Okay, Sheila. Great. Turning the tables. The interviewer becomes the interviewee. I will answer the 12 rapid fire, which I'm not even going to think through them. I'm just going to answer it.

Number one, vulnerability is hard and brave. Two, I'm called to be brave, but my fear is real and stuck in my throat. What's the first thing I do? Name that I'm in fear. Three, something that people often get wrong about you. I don't know. Maybe that I'm a serious person. I don't know. Sometimes I think people think I'm like, like kind of goofy and funny and I don't know, silly. But then I think they don't know I'm kind of a serious person. I don't think I thought I was a serious person, but I'm a serious person. But then, yeah, maybe that I'm kind of a serious person. Last show that I binged and loved. Oh God, Lord have mercy. Normal people. Number one and number two in current binge mode, I may destroy you. Jeez. God, like

I feel so better waking up in the morning knowing that this kind of talent exists in the world. So normal people and I may destroy you. Powerful. Favorite movie. The color purple will definitely be in the top few. We'll go with the color purple. What's on my nightstand? Phone charger,

moisturizer, foot moisturizing cream, an unbelievable leaning tower of books, a lamp, and that's it. A concert I'll never forget. You too. Any of them. Favorite meal. So I've been a keto for like years. So we buy like some kind of fresh non-fishy white fish and then bread it in like chicharrones, like pork rinds. And then we serve it with, I make this cilantro lime coleslaw out of like either coleslaw or broccoli slaw. And I really love that. If I were not on keto, fried chicken, mashed potatoes, white roll, butter, did I mention mashed potatoes yet? Corn, did I mention fried chicken and mashed potatoes and corn in a roll? And then some kind of cobbler, blueberry cobbler. Okay, snapshot of an ordinary moment in my life that brings me true joy.

In the water, at the lake, with my family, friends, floating and talking. I can never get over how magic it is. I would say a weird snapshot of an ordinary moment in my life right now would also have to be being on a very isolated hike in the hill country and finding Jonathan Van Ness sitting on a rock under a cedar tree. It was as if I was in a fairy tale and like cartoon creatures would start frolicking about and birds would land on my finger. What am I deeply grateful for right now? My team at work, my family, and my, this community, the people that just help me move through the day. And it's just the people who helped me move through the

day at this point. All right. This was AMA, Ask Me Anything, part one of two. We may do the second part next week. We may move it out a little bit. Just depends. All right. Thanks, y'all. Stay awkward, brave and kind. Keep your hands washed, masks on. You keep your social distanced and take good care. Unlocking Us is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group. The music is by Keri Rodriguez and Gina Chavez. Get new episodes as soon as they're published by following Unlocking Us on your favorite podcast app. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com. Thank you. AI-powered email, SMS, and more, making every moment count. Over 100,000 brands trust Klaviyo's unified data and marketing platform to build smarter

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