Unlocking Us with Brené Brown - Brené with Bono on Songs of Surrender and Carrying the Weight of Our Contradictions, Part 2 of 2

Episode Date: November 23, 2022

We’re back with Part 2 of my conversation with Bono, recorded live at the historic Paramount Theatre and presented by Austin City Limits Festival’s Bonus Tracks. In this episode, we take it back to Bono’s early days in Ireland — most notably the school where he’d meet his future bandmates, his future wife, and a headmaster who modeled what it was to live in the radical center, in a space forged by complication and contradiction. “How casually our destiny arrives,” Bono writes of this formative era. From there, our conversation rolls through matters of faith, creativity, and what it means to truly surrender. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone, I'm Brene Brown and this is Unlocking Us. We're here with part two of my conversation with Bono. I won't even keep you waiting. It's just that good. Support for this show comes from Macy's. Fall is in full swing and it's the perfect time to refresh your home and wardrobe for the sweater weather with new finds from Macy's. Fall is in full swing, and it's the perfect time to refresh your home and wardrobe for the sweater weather with new finds from Macy's. From October 9th to October 16th, get amazing deals on shoes and boots on sale at 30 to 40% off. And you can shop new styles during

the Macy's Fab Fall Sale from October 9th to October 14th. Shop oversized knits, warm jackets, and trendy charm necklaces and get 25 to 60% off on top brands when you do. Plus, get great deals on cozy home accessories from October 18th to October 27th. Shop in-store or online at Macy's.com. I just don't get it. Just wish someone could do the research on it. Can we figure this out? Hey, y'all. I'm John Blenhill, and I'm hosting a new podcast at Vox called Explain It To Me.

Here's how it works. You call our hotline with questions you can't quite answer on your own. We'll investigate and call you back to tell you what we found. We'll bring you the answers you need every Wednesday starting September 18th. So follow Explain It To Me, presented by Klaviyo. All right, before we get started, let me just say that this was a live event in front of 1,200 of our closest friends at the Paramount Theater, the historic, beautiful, amazing Paramount Theater in downtown Austin. The event was presented by Austin City Limit Festival's Bonus Tracks, ACL Fest Bonus Tracks for short.

And we talked about Bono's new memoir, Surrender, 40 songs, one story. His new book, I just have to say, the memoir, Surrender, it's a love story. It's a love story to Ali, his wife, to his family, to all of us who found all kinds of peace and challenges in the music and the lyrics. Let's jump into the conversation. Okay, I got to do this. This phrase phrase holy shit paradox again but okay how casually our destiny arrives you're attending mount temple comprehensive school the story i make up about the school is it is a place that absolutely engages the middle of the paradox. This is not a place where you have to have a lot of certainty.

In 1976, you meet Larry Adam, The Edge, and the love of your life, Ali Stewart, in the same week. Yeah, great week. Great, great, great week. Okay, hold on. Let me find this passage.

You really have read the book. Wow. It's a lot of book. So you're at Larry's house, and the sign up at school says, Drummer seeks musicians to form band. Is that how it works? That's how it worked um and i'm very grateful um to i think the 14 year old larry mullen for posting that and yeah the school mount temple comprehensive is very hard to explain

it's because you have to try and imagine this is you know know, the 70s in Ireland. We really are something on the brink of civil war. And here's this school where people are allowed to be themselves. I mean, you might say that the sort of non-denominational aspect is unique, but even, you know, just boys and girls, that was also quite unique and much more interesting. So I read. Yes. You know, schools are really important. Teachers, the role that teachers play. Ali and I went back to Mantelma Comprehensive recently.

It was Saturday, we were coming in from the airport, it was a sunny day, and we just went, the two of us. We hadn't been there in over 20 years. And the current headmaster spotted us and said, do you want to come in and look around? So he said, I'll just get the keys in the headmaster's office. And I went into the headmaster's office and he said, you're probably in here a bit, were you? And I said, yep.

And I told him about a particular headmaster that I had been called up in front of. And I had lost the run of myself as a young man and being involved in some aggression with a teacher who was a bully. And anyway, the aggression could never be. I can't. I'm ashamed of it. But I went at this fucker anyway. I'm gathering that, yeah. And he was sent to the headmaster, and I said his name, and I said, and he's doing this every day to people.

It's not me. I said, I'm not, it's just, he's really humiliating people and humiliating girls. And the headmaster said to me, he said, we know this. Okay? He's a bad egg. He said, but this is not how you resolve this. Do you understand that?

And he said, you let me do my job and you can stay in the school. I said, but when you leave here, you promise me that you will not approach solving these kinds of problems the way you did on that day. And so I walked out of the class and people are cheering. Yay! And I like to think of my part in the bargain and the geezer was asked to leave at the end of the thing.

But I think about the headmaster, inspired man, who was trying to deal with people and complicated people and different religions, sex. Oh, yeah. He was in that space, that radical centre that you are so interested in, Brené Brown, and why I'm here. I am so interested in, and I'm obsessed with this school. I even Googled it and tried to figure out like, yeah, I was, I was into it. Rock, rock,

rock and roll high school. Okay. So you're at Larry's house and you're in his kitchen and everyone's playing. He's, you said it was metallic chaos. The primal power of the tom-toms, the boot of the stomach and the kick drum, the snap and slap of the snare drum as it bounced off windows and walls. It was, again, a beautiful violence modulated by the shining gold and silver armor

of the cymbals, oddly filling out frequencies. This indoor thunder, I thought, will bring the whole house down. Yeah, rock and roll, man. And it really gets rock and roll-y, I'll tell you why. Because then you hear something that's not in the kitchen, and it's girls giggling and laughing and screaming in the backyard yeah yeah larry already had a fan club and he gave us a lesson in rockstar mystique he turned he turned the garden hose on them i was like wow that's gosh because i was like, wow. Gosh. Because I was like, these girls, they're interested.

It's an approach. Okay. So now, I don't know why, I laughed at this line in the book. This is the first time you see Allie. And you say, I know I fancy bookish girls. Girls who look as if they do their homework. Who might develop a fine sheen of perspiration in the overheated library. Girls who look as if they might do my homework. Sorry, I just had to ask you that.

Oh yeah, she's been correcting my homework. I bet. For quite a while. When I had to bring the book to Ali, of course, and ask, was she okay with it? Because, you know, we don't, we're very private about our relationship.

Yeah. And, you know, whatever we've been through, it's not a soap opera outside of the songs. And they're real opera. So I brought them to her and she one thing she wanted to taken out the rest of spellings so you got her right there still still correcting my copy this is this was one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard someone say about another person.

And this is you on Allie. And I found it in the very back. I think it's on page 565 in a footnote. Allie is inscrutable, but not unknowable. Allie will let her soul be searched only if you reciprocate and if she's ready for the long dive that's the only way over that drawbridge yeah i mean by the way it's not just me that feels like that her children are the same they're all trying to get to know her and we all follow her around. It is a love story and the book I wrote it to try to explain myself to myself but I also wanted to explain to my family what I'd been

doing with their life because they permissioned me to be away. They permissioned me to be not just an artist but an. And I felt they should have a record of the failures and accomplishments and in detail, because when you come back, we're not sitting around the dinner table and I'm talking about being in, don't bring my work home with me that way. There are moments when I'll sit, I used to sit and still do actually, with our children, two boys and two girls and Ali, and ask their opinion on how I should behave in a certain situation or what would they think about their father taking this position or that position.

But by and large, we don't, you know, we're having fun. So I thought the book was important. And, you know, one day they'll read it. I think there's been some sneaky looks into it from them already but i'm they don't have to read it now i'm not demanding that and it'll be very embarrassing for them excruciating for them in some regards although i did admit that our youngest son john when i used to drop him to school would ask that I dropped him around the corner and so he wouldn't have to deal with any of that Bono shit. Yeah.

I didn't, I mean, I know you're Bono, but I don't think I knew what that meant until I got here and we came in the back door and there were just hundreds of people holding albums and we were in a black, you know, suburban. And I think they thought that I was you. And so they were coming very close to the car.

And I was like, oh, hell no. Like, this is, I don't do this. And then I rolled down the window and it's like, I said, it's not, it's just me. And 80% of them were like, aww, man. Except for like five women in their 40s. Come on, come on, let's fucking go. They were like, we're here for you too. If I could be the Brené Brown of Dublin, I'd be very happy.

I want to go to this on page 158. Do you want to read it? You remind me of it again? Well, I have it out right here. It's about you and Ali moving in together. And I can read it to you and you can comment or you can read it. Whatever you like. Let me tell you this.

I have the book. I have the Kindle. this i have the book i have the kindle and i have the audible do not miss the audible yeah yeah we went we went we went to a lot of trouble to try and create a more immersive experience yes regular a regular audiobook. So I read it, but there's bits of songs in it and speeches. And if you're talking about Mandela, you hear him in the background. And it's quite a layered thing. A genius called Scott Sherratt did it over months, and he just didn't sleep. He just did it, and it's pretty great.

Yeah, and having the book, I go back and forth because of the drawings and the photos. So I will tell you, I do a full immersive thing here. Well, this will not be that. But if you'd like, I will. I would love. Okay.

Would y'all like to hear him read it? Yeah. Page 158. No way. Okay. Ali and I were moving in together, and now we were beginning to move together. On paper, our marriage started that honeymoon week,

but in truth, it didn't feel like that. We'd honored each other, made sacred vows, but the biggest moments in life may not be those we notice at the time. No fireworks, no explosions, no falling even more deeply in love now that we had time together. We were the playwrights and the play, the actors and the critics, excited and nervous to begin our adventure together. No idea where we'd be in 10 years, 20, 30. I raise you again, 40 years. We'll eventually figure out what was going on in that moment.

Rather than falling in love, we were climbing up toward it. We still are. Rather than falling in love, we were climbing up toward it. We still are. Man, there is... I hope the people in your life do get a chance to read this because it is a love letter to so many people. It is... Yeah, I was going to call it a wee-moir

instead of a me-moir. I'm so glad you didn't. You know how singers, you know, you know how singers, you know, tune up. Me, me, me, me, me, me, you know. So, anything. I mean, even I was, the author had gone off the subject of the book by the end.

But I was reminded by the great editor, Sonny Mehta, who passed away, but is one of the reasons why I did the book with Knopf. One of the reasons why I did the book. And he said, you will not reveal yourself in your descriptions of what's going on in your life, in your mind, in your heart. He said, you most likely reveal yourself the most in your descriptions of other people. And I didn't know that. You know, and I have, these are extraordinary people that I'm in relationship with. And the ones you've just mentioned, I met the same week. But I went on to form another couple of bands as well. And so as an activist, you know, people like Bobby Shriver,

who we've co-founded Red and One with, Jamie Drummond, Lucy Matthew, who, by the way, has played just the most incredible role in this book, in making me do it. And she was so exacting. We co-founded One together. So these are people that I love, actually. And so, yeah, I didn't want to occupy myself with people that I loathed. So I just left them out of the book. And there's another reason there wouldn't be a page to fill.

I don't loathe anyone. And I really don't. I'm trying to think. There must be somebody I loathe. I can't, as I'm sitting here. Oh, yeah. I loathe Vladimir Putin. Yeah.

And I'll tell you. Okay. Now I'm going. Let's go. I loathe that patriarchy in Iran right now. And I think about those women, those girls, and they just give me such hope and belief in the indomitable human spirit

that these teenage girls will take these old gray geezers down. I pray. I pray. We pray. Can we get an amen on that? Yeah. Amen. Amen.

It's funny because Richard Rohr says, you know, in his Center for Action and Contemplation, he says the most important word is the and. Ah, right. Not the action or the contemplation, but the and. God, your activism. You've done things and created change with collaborators that I don't know that people thought was possible. And I wonder sometimes if it's because you don't allow yourself to loathe. You find, you say in the book, I think I'm quoting you correctly, you find common ground by finding higher ground.

That's right. And in the one campaign we say you don't have to agree with someone on everything if the one thing you agree on is important enough. And yeah, I'm not a natural for this line of work, just so you know. I am more naturally combative. So I learned this. I learned to put my hand in my mouth rather than my foot when representing these issues,

which were much bigger than me or anyone. So I learned to be specific, to take on targets and go after them rather than just go after everything. But the act, you know, you think about activists, the action of that girl, I'm not sure I remember her name, Asra Bahami. She was 16 and they took her out of school and killed her.

You know, and these actions, that's activism. But actions are important. And I learned something years and years ago, which is that just to observe a problem requires a response. So if you believe that, I'm not sure I do, but if you believe it, very careful what you call out because now you're engaged. If you've got a problem that you spot, do you have you to respond to that is the question.

And I don't know the answer to it. Our manager, Paul McGuinness, used to respond to that is the question and I don't know the answer to it our manager Paul McGuinness used to say to me Bono the the job of the artist is to describe the problem not try and solve it can you get that into your head and and I would say well yeah but no and I responded against this word. Maybe this is related to my father. I don't know. But I thought dream was not the word I wanted associated with my generation. I thought dream was the generation that came before us.

Imagine John Lennon. And he, you know, I'm wearing his glasses. Oh, he brought me here in so many regards. But I felt what I loved about his activism was that he just got, he got involved. He went, you know, he made a fool of himself and his missus sitting there, you know, the two virgins and bed-ins for peace. But so somewhere in my head, there is hardwired action and contemplation. And contemplation, in this case, and action.

And I just thought, if we know how to do it, I felt I knew how to get the, this is a soccer analogy, and I'm Scheidt's soccer player, but if the ball lands at your foot, and you think you've got a way around the defense, and you know where the goalie is, and he's standing, and you know where you might be able to get the ball if you've got the right team of people behind you.

You've got to go. How would you not go? You've got to go. And it was a really simple idea. It sounds really crazy this week but we said oh gosh you know we're gonna work with liberals and conservatives with nuns and punk rockers and soccer moms and teachers and nurses and it started at the end of the, just going into the zeros and on drop the debt. Huge.

Trying to cancel the unpayable really debts of the poorest countries in the world. To the richest. To the richest. And it was a worthy cause, but it became a kind of a winnable battle because of the amount of unusual people, unusual bedfellows. Right. And I remember Bill Clinton going, you've got a really big tent here. Wow, you've got the Pope, you've got punk rockers.

You know, and it was... And I thought... I remember thinking, yeah, this is, wow, has nobody else done this? Because we're all very, I'm from the left, I'm right on, I'm from the Sunday school, I'm from the church, I'm from this. And what was so great about Jubilee 2000, who enlisted me on the Drop the Debt campaign campaign was it was everybody was out on the streets and i mean you're going to see this in america you're going to see a return to the radical center because the fringes are are it's okay it's okay to have people push the elastic limit. We need that. But actually, there's a WBH poem, Second Coming, where it goes, things fall apart, the centre cannot hold, mere anarchy is loosed upon the world.

We need the centre. And we need to find the centre. We need to listen more. It's very hard for me because i have so much to say um but we have to we deep listening is something that i feel father roar would be encouraging and listening to people not only that you don't agree with people you don't like people you don't want to be in the room with maybe what radical christianity is and we've got to be very careful. I don't want to be right about this in the book, but I find myself helping God across the road like she's a little old lady. And come on God, I know exactly where you're going. We've got to be careful of this. But if you are, if you come from a position where if you find something

in this child born in shit and straw, if you believe there's a force of love and logic behind the universe that would describe itself perhaps as a child born in shit and straw, the vulnerability of that, and then we have to follow through on that and that means I think doing I think it's called pick up your cross or whatever it is pick up your cross and follow me I think that means going to places that you would not normally go sitting with people that you would not normally sit with. And all of the faith traditions, you find this. And in Islam, you have this incredible respect for community and congregation. So it's not unique just to the Judeo-Christian thing.

But I'm leaning into religion at the moment. I'll wake up and I'll change my mind back. But that's where I'm going at the moment. That's great because this is my last page titled Faith. Okay. Oh, wow. I mean, it's like weird, y'all, really. What software do you use at work? The answer to that question is probably more complicated than you want it to be. The average US company deploys more than 100 apps, and ideas about the work we do can be radically changed by the tools we use to do it.

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Check it out wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Esther Perel, psychotherapist and host of the podcast, Where Should We Begin?, which delves into the multiple layers of relationships, mostly romantic. But in this special series, I focus on our relationships with our colleagues, business partners, and managers. Listen in as I talk to coworkers facing their own challenges with one another and get the real work done.

Tune into Housework, a special series from Where Should We Begin, sponsored by Klaviyo. Okay, your dad, at the very end of his life, looked at you and said, he's fighting cancer, dying, and says, I've lost my faith, but don't lose yours. It's the most interesting thing about you. Yeah, yeah. I was on tour with the band.

We were playing in the UK and Ireland, and so I could get home a lot. And my brother and I were looking after my father, and we were fortunate enough to be let into the room and to sleep beside him in these times. So my brother would be with him during the day and I'd come home and then take over and sleep beside him, which was a great intimacy between myself and my father at the end. But I might have taken it too far occasionally. And I was drawing him and it was beautiful because I could really study him and so I was drawing, I loved that

and then I thought he wanted me to read the Psalms to him probably not or maybe one would have been enough but I'm like wow, check this one out, this is really good this is when David's in real trouble himself would have been enough. But I'm like, wow, check this one out. This is really good. This is when David's in real trouble himself.

Now, did you know, Dad, that David was a musician? He played the harp. Did you know that? He was kind of like a rock star. Yeah. Have you ever seen the statue of David? Doesn't he look like Elvis? My dad's like... And you know he's not...

They don't circumcise him in the statue of David. What's that about? Dad is looking at me like, eyes rolling, likely not to heaven. And he's like, knock it off, will you? And it's very important for people of faith to realize we can be really insufferable. Oh, terrible. The worst. The worst.

But he did say to me, yeah, he said, it's the most interesting thing about you. He lost his faith. I'm sad about that, actually. Although, as I do remind people, I love this thing, you know, we all sit around. Do you believe in God? Oh, I love this thing, you know, we all sit around. Do you believe in God? Oh, I don't know. I'm working up to it. No, I don't. We go ask the question. A much surely more interesting question is, does God believe in us? And that's the only question that matters. It's the big one.

It's like, oh, you don't believe in God, that's fine then, that's sorted that one out. It is not the point. We have to accept, those of us who have faith, that it is preposterous for people who don't have faith. And so go easy on the mayo. Because I think what my dad was saying to me. You talk about your faith here, and you say,

it's not just that some of the finest people I've known don't subscribe to any particular faith tradition. It's more that people who openly profess faith can be, how should I put this? Such a pain in the ass. Arse. Arse. You said arse, yes.

Spell check. Spell check, arse. Thank you, Allie. Caught that. You want people to live their love, not profess it, really. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. All right, so I'm going to hit you with this last thing, then we're going to do very quick rapid-fire questions. Are you ready? Okay. We're recording this for the Unlocking Us podcast, y'all. Okay, I'm getting ready to go Jesus just because I'm getting ready to go Richard Rohr. Okay. Richard Rohr writes, all of creation has a cruciform pattern of loss and renewal,

death and resurrection, letting go and becoming more. It is a coincidence of opposites, a collision of cross-purpose waiting for the resolution in us. We are all filled with contradictions needing to be reconciled. The price we pay for holding together these opposites is always some form of crucifixion. Jesus himself was crucified between a good thief and a bad thief, hanging between heaven and earth, holding on to his humanity and his divinity, a male body with a female soul. Yet he rejected neither side of these forces but suffered them all

and reconciled all things in himself. This is the quick-fire question. No. This is Richard. Richard Rohr doesn't quick-fire. This is Richard quick fire question. No. This is Richard. Richard Rohr doesn't quick fire. This is Richard Rohr. So here's my question for you. But what is the question?

Well, here's the question. Based on the quote. I will spend the rest of my life on the exegesis of that passage. And Jesus will not exit. Here's my question. Is surrendering for you the title of the book about this reconciliation within yourself because when i think of surrender i think of war i think of the song from the war album if i want to live i gotta die to myself someday this is not a far leap from what richard

roar is talking about here yes it's It's important, I think, to say that surrender does not always have to follow defeat. No, yeah. And for me, who was born with my fists up, metaphorically speaking, and sometimes actually, it's a word I don't fully grasp and haven't even fathomed the depths of. Grin for me does not come easy.

I'm not a natural for this. To surrender to my maker, to surrender to my bandmates, to surrender to my wife, my partner, is a daily challenge to me. I'm not that person. This book I've written for, in that sense, it's a prayer for where I need to be. And I have to put down my fists and, you know, stop fighting with my father. Stop fighting with myself. Stop fighting with imaginary foes. And it's a daily struggle for me because I'm, you know, I like a row. I do. I do.

Is surrendering giving up or giving over to? Oh, much better. Giving over. Giving over, yeah. It is, got to be careful about, you write well about guilt and shame. You write better than anyone about it. In Mount Temple Comprehensive, there was a very hipster English teacher.

His name was Jack Heaslip. And he was kind of 60s, liberal, cool guy. And he was the housemaster as well. And when, if you broke a glass or, you know, kicked a ball through the window or whatever, you'd be brought in and he'd have to set the punishment. And he said what he would do is he would ask the kids what they, you know, how would they think they should be punished.

Yeah. And he said 90% of the teenagers would choose way worse punishments than were on the books. And he said this is the human condition. He said it is kind of limitless guilt. And I've taken his advice on that one. And I think we have to be, we have to give up things. But I'm, yeah, I'm into people at Lent. Yeah. Take up something. Don't give up. We take up stuff in our house. Yeah. We take up something joyful. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Rapid fire. We only have time for a few. You ready?

I'm trying. Fill in the blank for me. Vulnerability is? An invitation to invincibility. You're called to be very brave, but your fear is real. You can taste it in the back of your throat. What is the very first thing you do smirk you watch the Super Bowl yeah my ears are just a bit to go out we're going live and people are slapping me on the back walking through the crowds and I am terrified and all you will see is a

smirk. Yeah. Favorite movie of all time? Wings of Desire by Wim Wenders. Oh, God. A concert that you'll never forget. The Clash, 1977 in Dublin. Changed my life.

Favorite meal? Ooh. Fish and chips as prepared by the Italian restaurant Macari in Dublin. Macari's fish and chips. Last TV show

that you binged and loved? Bad Sisters. Oh my God. So good. So good. So bad, but so good. Yes. What's one thing you're deeply grateful for right now?

Eve Houston. Oh. Oh, ready? He gave us a mixtape. Five songs you can't live without. Are you ready? It was just today's, but go on. This is what you gave us a mixtape. Five songs you can't live without. Are you ready? It was just today's. This is what you gave us today, or yesterday.

I couldn't live without them today. The first one's hard to pronounce, so you may have to help me. Miserere. Miserere. Miserere. Luciano Pavarotti. Zuccaro and I wrote it, and it's a wild beast of a song. Andreas Bocelli also does a version of it miserere

miserere yeah and it introduced me to to this great man really most of the time by bob dylan when doves cry by prince set sounds of silence by simon garfunkel and people have the power by patty smith yes right. In one sentence, what does this playlist say about you, Bono? He's a nice bunch of guys. All right. Before we get out of here, I think that's what the signal is.

I want to thank everybody for being here. Yeah. You guys are nuts. It sold out in three minutes with 4,000 people in queue. I want to thank Book People for supplying all these books. Support your local independent bookstore. Let's go thank Book People for supplying all these books. Support your local independent bookstore.

Let's go, Book People. I have a list. Okay, to Austin City Limits Festival bonus track. I literally texted them and said, Bono's got this new book at Kixask. We couldn't do anything, could we? And the text came back in 30 seconds. It said, you're on, let's go.

And then Bono's team was like, you're on, let's go. So. You have a lot of fans on our team. Everyone knows Martin Rowe, who took, after Jack Heasel passed, he became our kind of pastor. And he is just your, and he's so much in my head and in my heart with this book.

So it's perfect that we would be with you. That's what he would want. Thank you for coming to Austin. Austin, Texas. Austin, Texas. Yes, ma'am. And I have to say, in closing, my big question when I was reading this book, 17-year-old Walkman, wore tape. You wore a t-shirt.

Oh, I wore a t-shirt on, yes. Wow. I was really into liberation theology at the time, and I couldn't figure out whether it was nature or nurture with you two. Was I attracted to the music and stuff because that was me, or did y'all shape me? And what I realized from all the U2 concerts I've been to, and there have been a lot, how about y'all, have y'all gone to U2 concerts?

Yeah. I think we shaped each other. Yeah, I think U2 is the band that doesn't just drop stuff on us. It grows with us and changes with us. So thank you for being here. And thank you for giving us room in your music to figure out who we are. Thank you so much. All right, just I hope you all love this conversation like I love this conversation.

If you are looking for links to the book, you can find them on bernabrown.com where we keep all of the podcast notes. Just look under Unlocking Us. I really, really recommend the book. I mean, if you're a YouTube fan, you won't be able to put it down, but even if you're not, it's just, it's incredible. And the audio, I read the book

and listened to the audio. Both are incredible. Stay awkward, brave, and kind. Rock on. Unlocking Us is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group. The music is by Keri Rodriguez and Gina Chavez. Get new episodes as soon as they're published by following Unlocking Us on your favorite podcast app. We are part of the

Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com. About a year ago, two twin brothers in Wisconsin discovered, kind of by accident, that mini golf might be the perfect spectator sport

for the TikTok era. Meanwhile, a YouTuber in Brooklyn found himself less interested in tech YouTube and more interested in making coffee. This month on The Vergecast, we're telling stories about these people who tried to find new ways to make content, YouTube and more interested in making coffee. This month on The Verge Cast, we're telling stories

about these people who tried to find new ways to make content, new ways to build businesses around that content, and new ways to make content about those businesses. Our series is called How to Make It in the Future, and it's all this month on The Verge Cast, wherever you get podcasts. Support for this podcast comes from Klaviyo. You know that feeling when your favorite brand really gets you. Deliver that feeling to your customers every time. Klaviyo turns your customer data into real-time connections across relationships with their customers during Black Friday, Cyber Monday, and beyond. Make every moment count with Klaviyo. Learn more at klaviyo.com slash BFCM.