Unlocking Us with Brené Brown - Brené with Chris Germer on the Near and Far Enemies of Fierce Compassion, Part 2 of 2

Episode Date: December 7, 2022

We’re back with Part 2 of my conversation with Chris Germer, a clinical psychologist and lecturer on psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, and we’re talking about fierce compassion, which is something so many of us are trying to figure out right now. When there’s so much pain and hurt in the world, we want to be a voice. We want to speak up and speak out. We want to take action, and we want to do so from a place where we are healing pain. In this episode, Chris and I talk about what’s actually possible for us as humans and how we can respond to pain and hurt without causing more of it and without self-protecting and distancing. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi everyone, I'm Brene Brown and this is Unlocking Us. Welcome back, part two of my conversation with Chris Germer. If you haven't listened to part one, stop the episode, go listen to that and then come back here because part one's really important. You got to do these in order. It's like a good mystery novel. In the second part, I'm going to ask some tough questions. Can anger exist with fierce compassion?

Can inner and outer transformation happen at the same time? And then, of course, like my softball question, what is the wisdom exactly? And of course, he has to refresh your home and wardrobe for the sweater weather with new finds from Macy's. From October 9th to October 16th, get amazing deals on shoes and boots, on sale at 30% to 40% off. And you can shop new styles during the Macy's Fab Fall Sale from October 9th to October 14th. Shop oversized knits, warm jackets, and trendy charm necklaces, and get 25% to 60% off on top brands when you do.

Plus, get great deals on cozy home accessories from October 18th to October 27th. Shop in-store or online at Macy's.com. I just don't get it. Just wish someone could do the research on it. Can we figure this out? Hey, y'all. I'm John Blenhill, and I'm hosting a new podcast at Vox called Explain It To Me. Here's how it works. You call our hotline with questions you can't quite answer on your own.

We'll investigate and call you back to tell you what we found. We'll bring you the answers you need every Wednesday starting September 18th. So follow Explain It To Me, presented by Klaviyo. All right, before we get started, let me tell you a little bit about Dr. Christopher Germer, clinical psychologist and co-developer with Kristen Neff of the Mindful Self-Compassion Program that's been taught to over 200,000 people. He's also the author of a very popular book that I love, The Mindful Path to Self-Compassion, and co-author, also with Kristen Neff, of the professional textbook, Teaching the Mindful Self-Compassion Program and the Mindful Self-Compassion Workbook.

He is a lecturer on psychiatry part-time at Harvard Medical School. He's been integrating the principles and practices of meditation into psychotherapy since 1978. He co-edited two influential volumes, Mindfulness and Psychotherapy and Wisdom and Compassion in Psychotherapy. And he is a founding faculty member of both the Institute for Meditation and Psychotherapy and the Center for Mindfulness and Compassion, the Cambridge Health Alliance Harvard Medical School. Right now, he divides his time between teaching, writing, clinical practice, and consulting on self-compassion research and supporting the Center for Mindful Self-Compassion. He maintains a small private practice in Cambridge specializing in mindfulness and compassion-based psychotherapy. He is also a committed student of Insight Meditation and co-director of the Annual Meditation and Psychotherapy Conference at Harvard Medical

School Cambridge Health Alliance. Let's jump in. All right. Welcome back, Chris. Thank you for having me back. Man. You opened doors for me. You put me on an elevator that had to rise up past the near enemy floor, which is not always easy. And we're back to this conversation about fierce compassion, which I think so many of us are trying to figure out right now when there's so much pain and hurt in the world and we want to be a voice. We want to speak up and speak out. We want to take action and we want to do so from a place where we are healing pain, not causing more pain. But I'm not sure that's our default as humans. Do you think that's our default as humans? Do you think it's just human nature, social species stuff

to struggle with how to respond to pain and hurt without causing more pain and hurt, without self-protecting and distancing? Do you think some of that's just about being human? Yes, I do think that it's very human. And I also think that we are better than that. Oh, both things are true. There is some human instinct there, but we're also better than that. Yeah. Well, of course, that was your answer. That was good. So we talked about fierce compassion on the last episode, and we talked about Kristen Neff's work, and we're both big fans of Kristen

Neff. And we talked about kind of when you talk about fierce compassion, the far enemies are, and let's set it up. You've witnessed an injustice. You're outraged about something that seems immoral and hurtful. And the far enemies of fierce compassion are emotional reactivity, demonizing or dehumanizing, and hostility. Yeah, that comes very easily. It's very instinctive because when we feel threatened, we feel fight, flight, freeze, the threat response gets triggered and very easily we slip into reactivity, demonizing, and hostility. Yeah, that's true. One thing that was really hard for me to think about personally is I can definitely slip into these things around social justice issues, equity issues,

but I can slip into these things when someone does something to my kid that pisses me off. And then what I'm modeling for my child when I'm like, what? What do you mean that she said that to you? And she has no idea what she's doing. I don't even know how she became a teacher. And I mean, all of a sudden, emotional reactivity, demonizing, hostility.

Right? Yep, yeah. But, you know, your kid may also forgive you your excesses because your child knows where it's coming from. Yes, it's kind of like I have a very clear sport mode, but I do not have a very clear Buddhist mode in those moments. Like I just go into sport mode. Yeah, I don't think that, I think Buddhists go into sport mode too.

You do? Oh, I've met enough to say, yeah, they go into sport mode as well. Oh, I love that even more. Yes. Okay. That is so helpful. So then the near enemy of fierce compassion, which is we talked about in the first episode where love and suffering come together, is instead of emotional reactivity, we're just complacent.

Like, mm. And then instead of demonizing and dehumanizing, we go to sameness. Yeah. And then we, instead of kindness, we go to pity. Yeah, yeah. So what we're looking for in fierce compassion, I want to make sure I've got this right, is kindness, both self-kindness and to others, a sense of common humanity, and a sense of mindfulness. Yeah. So another way of thinking about that in the social justice area is to be wise or to have kind of a balanced awareness about what's going on and ready to

act, not complacent. Also in the social justice area, common humanity in the realization that we're all different, yet what each of us do has an impact on everyone's life, including our own. And lastly, in terms of kindness, to recognize that anything that we do for another person, if it's not done with an awareness of the, really the sacredness or the value, the preciousness of whomever it is that we're trying to help is only going to hurt them, you know? So really what the thread that really holds all this together, in my view, is the common humanity thread, you know? It's interesting. So we talk a lot about kind of those, everyone that we take in my view, is the common humanity thread. It's interesting. So we talk a lot about kind of those,

everyone that we take through our Dare to Lead program or the Daring Way program goes to selfcompassion.org, Kristen's website, and takes the evaluation on self-compassion. People really struggle the most with self-kindness and common humanity. And as a shame researcher, it makes sense to me because shame is the most effective when it convinces you that you're alone. Yes. Yeah.

And so I love what you said about taking wise and compassionate action. Yeah. This is what you write in this article that, again, if you missed the first part, I told Chris, I had to walk away from it like three times because I thought in my dualistic thinking sometimes that I have, I don't know. There was something in me when I was reading this article that I was in a season of my activism

where I had to stop because I couldn't tolerate my own level of asshole-ness. I love your honesty. It's true. I think whenever anybody with white skin who's in the social justice space can say what you said, we are 10 steps ahead of the game. Thank you for that. Yeah, I just couldn't take it anymore. My moral outrage and then being exhausted by it and then switching over to complacency and then thinking about, wow, which is about love and excavating lovelessness in myself and the world. And so the moment I started using lovelessness as the fuel

for my activism, something felt broken. It just felt broken. Does that make sense? Well, I just so appreciate what you're saying, which is we need to work on ourselves and the system, unjust systems that we live in at the same time. Because if we don't get our individual act together, we can create the most glorious systems and they're not sustainable. In other words, our hearts and minds need to be in a place that can sustain these good systems, even if we are able to create them. So, and frankly, I think along the way to a more perfect world or a better world anyway, the best way we can make progress in that regard is to continue to work on ourselves. So you're really making a really nice case for inner and outer transformation necessary to happen at the same time. In other words, I think we really do need a balance to work on ourselves

and do social justice work at the same time. I think it has to happen simultaneously or it's going to get lopsided and it's going to feel loveless, as you said. And frankly, we're going to burn out. This is the bottom line. You know, a lot of people ask, so what's the best antidote to burnout or compassion fatigue? It's self-compassion.

We need to be able to take care of ourselves. We need to nurture ourselves. And frankly, we need to grow as individuals if we want to grow the world around us. So, you know, I just really appreciate that you have that integrated vision, Renee. Yeah, integration and discernment are my things that I'm working on right now. And I love integration because I love that the Latin word for integration is integrare, and it means to make whole. Ah, sweet. Isn't that nice?

That is very nice. Okay, I do need some help from you. I need you to validate something for me. Am I allowed to engage and come from a place of fierce compassion and get really pissed off sometimes? Oh, that's a very interesting question. I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you should really be interviewing Kristen on this since Kristen Neff, because she's spent a lot more time thinking about this.

But one thing that we both agree on very much so is that anger, like any emotions, you say this all the time yourself, it's information. It doesn't mean because we're angry that it's more correct or incorrect. It's just information. And so the issue is not what emotion we have, but how we're holding that emotion and what we can learn from the emotion, right? So anger naturally arises when there's unfairness, when there's injustice, when we feel threatened. Anger is such an interesting emotion. Right. David White, I think he describes anger as a, have you heard that, as a compassionate emotion? He said, because when we're angry, we're actually protecting something that is so deep and so near to us that we just don't have a better way of holding it or protecting it other than being just angry. So the amazing thing about anger is that it points to something really deep, like our core values, that is also endangered and also a place of, as you would probably have already said a million times, is a place of vulnerability, right? So anger is a function,

which is actually protecting something sacred if we have the courage to go into that place, into that place of deepest meaning and also into that place of brokenness. When we're in the social justice field, we have to enter into a place of brokenness. We're broken. The cultural systems are breaking. So what is anger?

Anger is protective. You know, it's protective. If we can't get to those broken places, if we can't get to those core values, to what is sacred to us, and hold them and protect them, then what's going to happen is we're not going to behave wisely. We're just going to react on the surface with our anger and cause more pain and suffering. So I think anger is energy and anger is information. The energy side of anger is also brilliant, brilliant. It mobilizes us potentially for goodness. However, we need to apply it wisely, wisely. So how do we temper anger with wisdom? That's a really important question. How do we do that? And I know Mahatma Gandhi was often asked about this. And what he says basically is he definitely knows anger. He can feel anger.

And he even, he used the energy of anger in order to basically liberate a subcontinent from colonial domination. But by the time it came out, it didn't come out in violence. It came out in nonviolence. It came out in a transformative, wise action. And ultimately, I think this is our challenge, which is to, when we get angry, to be able to validate it, to be able to feel it, to know what it is that we're protecting, and then to find wise and effective ways of protecting those sacred things that need protecting without causing further harm. See, that's really beautiful and true.

And you don't see any successful social justice movements without anger, and you don't see any successful social justice movements without wisdom. Yeah. And so anger seems to be like a great, powerful, like you said, brilliant catalyst. But in our work, we always say, but it's a sucky life companion. That's great. Yeah. It's a catalyst, but it's a lousy companion.

That's great. About a year ago, two twin brothers in Wisconsin discovered, kind of by accident, that mini golf might be the perfect spectator sport for the TikTok era. Meanwhile, a YouTuber in Brooklyn found himself less interested in tech YouTube and more interested in making coffee. This month on The Verge Cast, we're telling stories about these people who tried to find new ways to make content, new ways to build businesses around that content, and new ways to make content, new ways to build businesses around that content, and new ways to make content about those businesses. Our series is called How to Make It

in the Future, and it's all this month on The Vergecast, wherever you get podcasts. Hello, I'm Esther Perel, psychotherapist and host of the podcast Where Should We Begin, which delves into the multiple layers of relationships, mostly romantic. But in this special series, I focus on our relationships with our colleagues, business partners, and managers. Listen in as I talk to co-workers facing their own challenges with one another and get the real work done. Tune into How's Work, a special series from Where Should We Begin, sponsored by Klaviyo. What is wisdom? Well, there's like an Eastern version, there's a Western version. In

the East, wisdom refers to insight into complexity, into the interdependence of all things, which means also into our own selflessness, that who Brene is or who Chris is, is really a combination of an infinite variety of intersecting forces. There's not a rigid Brene or Chris anywhere to be found. She's changing, Chris is changing. We're all changing. So wisdom is really this awareness of interdependence in the East. And in the West, usually people say, oh, that's a wise person because there's this pragmatic aspect of being able to not only see kind of all the complexity of the situation, but to find your way through, you know, how to like get stuff done in a way that is effective, you know?

Yeah. So in my view, a really nice definition of wisdom is really a combination of both. One is that we can see the complexity of things and also find our way through. And without a doubt, whenever we are going to do something, you know, like sometimes people say, okay, now that I've got the fire of compassion burning in my heart, what do I do about my, you know, rotten, I don't know, someone, how do I fix that person or that thing? And the answer is, I can't tell you. You got to figure that out. Anytime we're going to do something, it really depends on the conditions at that moment, which includes who's doing it and when

and with whom and so forth. So ultimately, we can't act without wisdom. We need to know what's going on. I feel lucky that you're sharing your wisdom with us today because I do feel like it is a combination of interdependence, but also helping us find a way through. I feel very grateful for that. Yeah. I do. Thanks.

Thanks, yeah. All right. Speaking of wisdom, are you ready for some rapid fire questions, which is the opposite of wisdom? Probably have a little fun. I'm a little fun together every day. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Fill in the blank for me. Vulnerability is, ah, is the,

uh, fluttering of the human heart i'm looking i'm looking at barrett we're both like so good okay you chris are called to be very brave but your fear is real you can taste it in your mouth you can feel it in the back of your throat what is the very first thing you do? Oh, I felt anxious before talking in this interview because I admire you so much. We haven't met. I was really hoping, oh, I hope it goes well. And I didn't realize you were quite so delightful. I mean, I've read your books and they're fabulous, but in person, you're even better. So what did I do prior to this?

I just, I dropped into my heart and, oh, I just felt the love that was there and thought, let's make some room for this. And that's what happened. When you say you drop into your heart, are you dropping in from your head? Yeah, drop down into the heart, the spiritual heart, you know, in the heart region of the body where our deepest intentions and wishes and knowing takes place, you know. Beautiful. Okay. What is the last television show that you binged and loved?

Ted Lasso. So good, right? So good, yeah. So good. I'm just looking forward to the next series. Me too. They're holding out on us. It's a compassion show.

You know, it's all compassion, right? It is very much a compassion show. Tell us your favorite movie. Oh, my favorite movie. Oh, my goodness. Oh, there's just so many films that come through my mind. They're like fun ones. One that you watch whatever it's on.

Oh, I don't tend to watch movies more than once. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. We were thinking about Gandhi just a few moments ago, and I sure did love that film. If I need to say some film, but, oh, there's just so many.

We'll just leave it open. We'll just say too many to name. Okay. What about a concert that you'll never forget? A concert I'll never forget. Well, in 1970, I went to a Grateful Dead concert, and that was a hoot. I probably never forget it. That's one.

That's perfect. What's your favorite meal? Well, I could tell you my favorite ingredients are grits, even though I was born and raised in the Northeast. You're a Southern boy. Well, my wife's from Louisiana, but I eat more grits than she does. I love grits.

I love avocados. And I like anything that's fresh. Yeah. Fresh. Grits. I would have never guessed grits. I love grits. Do you put salt and butter on them?

Well, there are many ways of making grits. Sometimes I put salt and butter. Sometimes I put in spinach. Sometimes I will add nuts and maple syrup and raisins. It's a miracle food. It is a miracle food. Take that, everybody who doesn't eat grits. Yeah, you heard it right here. Okay, a snapshot of an ordinary moment in your life that brings you joy. I love to sit on the back porch and look at my wife's beautiful garden, which is a cascade of color. That's an ordinary moment, which I enjoy. And frankly, I love to meditate.

It's such a joy to wake up in the morning and sit down and just go home, you know, go home in the heart. And those are more individual things. I have to say my sweetest moment of the day is at the end of the day, this is a rather personal thing, but at the end of the day when my wife puts her head on my shoulder, I think I could die right then and I'll be perfectly at peace. Wow. That is a moment to be grateful for. Yeah.

It gave me shivers. Okay. We asked for five songs that you can't live without. I'm going to read them to you. Hallelujah by Leonard Cohen. All Along the Watchtower, the original version by Bob Dylan, and then the later version

by Jimi Hendrix. You may have to help me with this one. Rade Govinda? How do you say it? You said it. Really? Yeah. Krishna Das. Yeah. Did I say it? You said it.

Okay. Lake Charles by Luc say it? You said it. Okay. Lake Charles by Lucinda Williams. You like grits and Lucinda Williams? And Lucinda Williams. It's the truth. Oh, my God. You are such a Southern guy. Such a Southern guy.

Then White Rabbit by... I only knew there was a Grace Slick version. Oh, but... And the Bluegrass version by Molly Tuttle. I mean, come on. It's fabulous. Come on. I need to move to the South. Is that what you're saying?

I'm just saying that we got a lot of grits. We got a lot of bluegrass. There's all that happening. And we got a lot of Lucinda Williams. Okay. In one sentence, what does this mixtape say about you, Chris? Yeah. What I like, what really deeply moves me is compassion in the trenches, you know, gritty spirituality. Leonard Cohen, you know, it's about being beautiful and broken, you know. Lucinda Williams is such a soulful singer, and you get the feeling of vulnerability and brokenness at every moment.

And yet, kind of a, the whole thing is wrapped in compassion, you know. And her dad even wrote a beautiful poem called Compassion. So all these pieces, definitely the Indian kirtan, those devotional songs to God, there's this quality of compassion and devotion and love, but not in a transcendent way, in an anchored way, in a real way, in a gritty way, like on the ground way, in an anchored way, in a real way, in a gritty way, in like on the ground way, which is frankly where it just has power. And I just feel deeply moved by it. Same with the blues. I love the blues. Oh God, me too. I just couldn't think of a good blues song, but it's the same kind of thing. It's like our feet are in the mud, but that's not ultimately where we live, you know? As human beings, we are bigger than any of our suffering. And I like to be reminded of that in music. Beautiful. God, this is so beautiful. I have enjoyed every minute. Thank you so much for being on Unlocking Us.

Thank you, Renee. It's such a delight spending time with you. I feel the same way. I really hope y'all enjoyed both part one and part two of this conversation with Chris Germer. I just think he's so calming, right? And I love to know that the Buddhists have sport mode as well. I don't know. It was super helpful for me, very timely. You can learn all about his work, all about him, and find his books and find out more about the mindfulness self-compassion program on brennabrown.com. Just go to podcastunlockingus, and then you'll see the one with him.

Y'all stay awkward, brave and kind. Unlocking Us is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group. The music is by Keri Rodriguez and Gina Chavez. Get new episodes as soon as they're published by following Unlocking Us on your favorite podcast app. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com. company deploys more than 100 apps, and ideas about the work we do can be radically changed by the tools we use to do it. So what is enterprise software anyway? What is productivity software? How will AI affect both? And how are these tools changing the way we use our computers to make stuff, communicate, and plan for the future? In this three-part special series, Decoder is surveying the IT landscape presented by AWS. Check it out wherever you get your podcasts. Support for this podcast comes from Anthropic. It's not always easy

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