Unlocking Us with Brené Brown - Brené with Father Richard Rohr on Spirituality, Certitude, and Infinite Love, Part 2 of 2

Episode Date: April 27, 2022

In Part 2 of an unforgettable and transformative conversation with Father Richard Rohr, the Franciscan friar and I really go there — asking and answering hard questions about certainty and the ego, a cosmic God who’s bigger than what Christianity often espouses, and the spiritual yearning of today’s up-and-coming generations. It’s a deeply holy discussion that I hope will resonate with you no matter where you fall on the spiritual spectrum. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, everyone. I'm Brene Brown, and this is Unlocking Us. Thank you for joining us for part two of my conversation with one of the people whose work and whose teachings have completely made a difference in my life, really been transformative. I'm talking with Father Richard Rohr, and we're talking about certainty and ego and uncertainty and social justice and the right and the left and a cosmic God and Jesus that are bigger than, you know, what Christianity has espoused. I mean, we're going there and we're talking about it all. And I'm glad you're here for it because for me, it is a very holy conversation. Support for this show comes from Macy's. a very holy conversation. sale at 30 to 40% off. And you can shop new styles during the Macy's Fab Fall Sale from October 9th to October 14th. Shop oversized knits, warm jackets, and trendy charm necklaces and get 25 to 60% off

on top brands when you do. Plus, get great deals on cozy home accessories from October 18th to October 27th. Shop in-store or online at Macy's.com. About a year ago, two twin brothers in Wisconsin discovered, kind of by accident, that mini golf might be the perfect spectator sport for the TikTok era. Meanwhile, a YouTuber in Brooklyn found himself less interested in tech YouTube and more interested in making coffee. This month on The Verge Cast, we're telling stories about these people who tried to find new ways to make content, new ways to build businesses around that content, and new ways to make content about those businesses. Our series is called How to Make It in the Future, and it's all this month on The Verge Cast,

wherever you get podcasts. Before we jump in, let me tell you a little bit about Father Richard. He is a Franciscan friar and an ecumenical teacher. He bears witness to the deep wisdom of Christian mysticism and traditions of action and contemplation. Father Richard is the founder of the Center for Action and Contemplation in Albuquerque, New Mexico. I love contemplation and action, both. Action without contemplation, not so good. Contemplation without action, not so good. Together, oof, endless love. Father Richard teaches us how God's grace guides us to our birthright, which is, you know, as being people made of divine love. He is the author of many books, I think 34, including The Universal Christ,

The Wisdom Pattern, Just This, and the one that was like probably the big introduction for me falling upward. I'm pretty sure that this quote is in at least one of my books, but I think it's two where I quoted you. It's a long quote, but I want to read it. And I just can't wait to hear you talk about it because it's actually hanging up in my office too. You write, my scientist friends have come up with things like principles of uncertainty and dark holes. They're willing to live inside imagined hypotheses

and theories, but many religious folks insist on answers that are always true. We love closure, resolution, and clarity while thinking that we are people of faith. How strange, you write, that the very word faith has come to mean its exact opposite. That's right. You got it. You know what of my quotes to focus in on. Yeah, it's come to mean I have faith means I'm right. It's the cult of innocence again. Where does the cult of innocence come from?

The ego's need to feel separate and superior. Those are the two needs of the ego, feel separate and to feel superior. And if you follow those voices, you might go to church, but you'll never be a spiritual person. Wow. I know, I know.

It breaks your heart, doesn't it? It does. And I'm not trying to say this to make myself right, because I know I'm constantly fumbling with these verbalizations. It's like a recent president we have. If you want to know what he's calling someone else, he's talking about himself. Always, always.

And this is the way the ego is. It sees its own fault in other people. Yeah. I mean, I think to myself all the time, I'll post something on social media, especially something that has to do with social justice, racism, or the anti-trans stuff. And the angrier and more hateful people are, the more scared I know they are about something within them. It doesn't hurt me less sometimes.

I wish I could rise above, but I can't always. But I know it's someplace in my heart. And it's not my brain. It's my faith heart where I know there's some kind of pain there being projected on me. And I need to scoot out of the way sometimes, but I'm not good at it. Sometimes I like to catch it and then ball it up and make it even meaner and then throw it back. I'm just like you. Thank you for admitting it. That's the eagle making its last stand.

A new way to be right. Be right for God. As if God needs that. As if God needs that. You get what I'm trying to say. Thank you. Forgive my voice. It's getting so weak.

No, again, I can hear you loud and lovingly. Can you? Oh, okay. Yes. But I think it's so funny that when you say, I get it, it's because you've been my teacher. I mean, Joan Chidester, you. Joan. Yeah. In the Buddhist tradition, Joan Chidester, you. Joan. Yeah, in the Buddhist tradition, Roshi Joan Halifax.

Oh, also here in New Mexico. Yeah, Thou Hooks. Thou, yeah. Yeah. So I think if I get it, it's because I've been taught well. And it probably helps that I'm a vulnerability researcher, but, you know, I think I've been taught well. God's using you, Brene.

Where does the name Brene come from? I have such a sad story. Do you want to hear it? Yes. I hated the name growing up because I couldn't, when we'd stop at a truck stop on I-10 between Houston and San Antonio, everyone would get spoons or shot glasses

or something fun with their names on it. And I could never find Brene. And so I was convinced that it was French. And so when I was 17, I graduated from high school and I left for six months in hitchhiking. So when I got to France, I was like, I'm here, voila, Brene. I'll be able to find, and the first thing,

like the first thing a person from Paris said is, Brene, what kind of name is this? And I was like, what? I was like, it's French. I'm one of y'all. No, you know what? We call you Pamela because we like Pamela from Dallas, the show Dallas.

As it turns out, Brene is solidly Southside San Antonio, Texas. My parents just made it up. No kidding. Yes. Wow. So you grew up in San Antonio? San Antonio and Houstonston mostly yeah i taught seven summers at saint mary's university in san that's where i went you're kidding no i went i was there for don't look at my transcripts it was an exploratory time in my life father richard very exploratory, but I was there when John Motor was the head. Father Motor. Yes. Yes. I was there 77 to 83.

I was there from 83, no, 84 to 87. You came after I left, yeah. I was trying to teach Catholics who don't know much about Scripture, how to interpret scripture. So for seven summers, I taught scripture in San Antonio. I loved it. Yeah. Oh, I lived in Our Lady of Lord's Dorm. Yeah. No, I was there. What a small world. Yeah. I had a boyfriend that lived in Chaminade Dorm.

Yeah. Chaminade. Yeah. All right, before we go down that rabbit hole of San Antonio, that's a good question. Like, as a Catholic Episcopalian, I cannot win a dueling scripture war with a good Baptist. No, you don't have a chance. But it's a war you wouldn't want to win

anyway. Because the premises of how to interpret scripture, forgive me. Now I'm trying to be right, but they're useless. You know, if God intended the Bible to communicate truth, it was called biblical inerrancy by the Southern American Christians, then why are there four Gospels in which every story is told in a very different way? Which one is true? Different voice? Yeah. Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John.

I mean, it's written in plain sight. There is not one correct way. And we just, you know, it's like recent politics. Fake news, just don't bother me with the facts. I'm going to believe what I want to believe. Ego again. And every word of the Bible is inerrant. Of course, we Catholics did the same thing with the Pope, the poor Pope.

We made him infallible. And both of us were searching for certainty, not faith. Oh. See? Oh. Yes. Oh, boy. not faith oh see oh yes oh boy

the catholic the catholic version of certainty is our pope that's why everything has to kind of he's the intermediary

between god like the pope yeah you need something that's absolute the protestants took the bible biblical inerrancy

we took the pope papal infallibility. You see? And both of them emerged in the middle of the 19th century. We got it on fine without it before then. You know, I got another quote lined up. Go ask me. Go ahead. This is the most exciting.

I can't wait. Okay. This, wink, wink, I'm asking for a friend. Okay. Yes. Ready? Much of the work of midlife is to tell the difference between those who are dealing with their issues through you and those who are really dealing with you.

Wow. I'm going to read it again because I kind of messed it up. No, it's good. That was a Rorian slip. Instead of a Freudian slip, that was a Rorian slip that I said. But did I say that? Did I say that? Yes, you did.

You said the right way. This is from Falling Upward, which is... Oh, Falling Upward, of course. Oh, man, good. Much of the work of midlife is to tell the difference between those who are dealing with their issues through you... Through you. ...and those who are really dealing with you.

Yes. So this is about projection, right? You got it. You got it. You know, what got me into my men's work were my first years teaching at a Franciscan high school in Cincinnati, then being a jail chaplain here in Albuquerque for 14 years. Wow. I recognized how many people have what I called a father wound,

a really tragic relationship with their father. And what I learned early on, and of course, we Catholics ask for it by being called father. But as so many people who were talking to me or raising their hands, waving in the room, they weren't dealing with me. They were dealing with their dad. And they needed to change me because they hadn't met me yet. They assumed all kinds of things about me because I'm white and American and clergy. So I can understand.

But so many people were dealing with their issues through me. Now, once I learned that and I stopped resenting it and fighting it and began to allow it, I can let them hate me. I can let them mistrust me. The doors broke open of many counseling relationships. But if I would try to defend myself in vulnerability. Basically, the healing relationship was over. But I think the father wound, I haven't taken a statistic, I don't know,

but after preaching in 46 countries, I think it's the most universal psychological wound that human beings have on this planet, which is probably, of course, I look at everything theologically, but why Jesus called God Daddy, Abba. He knew that that masculine image had to be radically healed. And God was not a father in any sense in which you understand male power or male authority in any sense. He knew God was a male. But he said, even whatever part of God is male

is good. Until you heal that, everybody's dealing with male authority figures. These are the rebels on the left and on the right. Those on the right agree to conform. Those on the left and on the right. Those on the right agree to conform. Those on the left

say, I'm going to keep fighting it. But it's both a mistaken battle. Can I ask you a question about how much of the father wound is driven by toxic masculinity? Oh, most of it. Yeah, you named it right there. Because even a little child is healthy enough to know, my dad is screwed up. You know what I mean?

Yeah. That they recognize toxic masculinity. And they just prefer to avoid him after a while. And for many people, that never changes. It takes a different form in women and a different form in men. But you said it. Yeah. What software do you use at work? The answer to that question is probably more complicated than you want it to be. The average U.S. company deploys more than 100 apps, and ideas about

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and get the real work done. Tune into Housework, a special series from Where Should We Begin, sponsored by Klaviyo. I'm going to try to tie two things together that we've talked about. Go ahead. And you can untie them or retie them if I'm off, but how much of the toxic masculinity power over instead of power with and power to,

how much of that drives us to create a God with an ego? I would say you could draw a direct line. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that's the model of maleness we're familiar with. Men who've got to be loud and boisterous and bullies, frankly. I mean, look, that we'd elect a bully president of the United States shows how blind we are to this.

Mm-hmm. And where we see it as strength and people try to emulate it. Strength. Yeah. Exactly. And that the whole Russian world is now behind their bully. Yeah. Come on.

And so we take that idea of masculinity and we create God the dictator instead of God the lover. There you go. There you go. We gravitate, as you well know, Brene, toward what we're familiar with. Yeah, for sure. And if our dad was a bully, a rageaholic, alcoholic, we'll take that rather than somebody kind. Because we see that as weakness. I remember when I, yeah, when I was at the jail, some young prisoners who I thought I

had a trust relationship with, I would call them son. And usually they loved it. But once in a while, they just come back and say, don't you call me son. I'm not your son. And they were right. I shouldn't have presumed. But the word itself was abhorrent to them, not beautiful. Yeah. They had never been a beloved son. They'd only been a loveless son. Oh, you get it all.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I had good teachers. I looked at your list of 33 books and I was like, oh my gosh, this is like, this may be an obsession on my part. I think I've read them all. You're sweet. You're humble.

Go ahead. What else? I have one last question for you. All right. It's, I don't know how to word it exactly this is where Brene in her Catholic school uniform at Holy Name of Jesus

is scared to ask the question but grown up Brene is going to ask the world goes back so much further than the theology that I was raised with. Yes, yes. I just have to believe, I believe, I don't have to believe, I believe that God predates the narrative of my faith story. Or he's not God.

Oh, whoa. Whoa. That's right. That's right. What? Trouble is you get it too quickly. You understand all the implications. What do you mean? If God started with Christianity, then God's not God.

That is the most. Well, then God only started 2,000 years ago. And you and I know the universe is 13.6 billion, give or take a few years. We've got to have a God that is at least as big as our cosmology, our understanding of creation. And that disconnect between creation and God is much that we're facing now, especially with your children's generation who are educated in science. They just, it doesn't compute.

You know, that, so if we discover another planet with life on it, did Jesus go save them too? You know, it doesn't work. It just doesn't work. It doesn't compute. And these aren't rebellious people. They're just sincerely thinking people. Yeah. So my kids are Gen Z and I think there is a mythology about the Gen Z kids and the millennials, the young adults who are millennials, you know, the nuns, N-O-N-E-S,

not N-U-N-S, that they have no spiritual yearning. But I think when I look at my kids, they have a deep spiritual yearning that says, I believe deeply in something that doesn't make me choose science or faith. And I want something deeply that doesn't tell me my Muslim friend is wrong or my Buddhist friend is wrong. So it's not that they don't have a spiritual yearning. It's as deep as mine. Of course. Of course you're right. What do you make of that? It's only in the 20th century

that we became capable of that kind of wide-angle lens seeing. It wasn't malice. People were at the blue level of consciousness, forgive me, I'm back into spiral dynamics, where everything is seen tribally. You know, when you think tribally, well, you've got to fit God into your tribe, and he likes your tribe the best.

And that's understandable. I can forgive it all. I've been saying lately that what it means to be old is to be able to forgive everything more and more. It doesn't have to be my way. It can't be my way. I'm one little billionth, you know. Yeah, we just have the eyes to more inclusive seeing, whereas religion up to now largely defined into all of the world religions, not just Christianity or Judaism, by exclusion, who wasn't right,

who was going to hell, who God didn't love, as if we could know. It's so silly. But more and more, I can talk to people the way we're talking, and they don't fight me. But my preaching days are over. It's all out there if people want to hear it. You're a delight. I got to get back to Austin. Oh, yeah, I'll come see you too. Like y'all heard it here first.

Right now I'll start walking. I'll start walking west. Oh, aren't you sweet? I want to end on this note. So are you saying it's possible for the people out there, especially the young people who have a spiritual yearning, to find community. And to me, the cadence of the liturgy,

I'm a liturgical girl living in a cosmic world. Like I'm really trying to figure it out. So are you saying it's possible for them to find this bigger than one theology God and a community that is also not so loose that it loses meaning? There you go. It's that middle point where you hold on to essential order, but not non-essential order, you know? Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. They can find it.

That's the difference between intelligence and wisdom. Wisdom is what you're describing. Where I can hold on to what's good about order, include what I've discovered that we first of all call disorder, and that's the new order. When you put order and so-called disorder together, I've got a new book out. I'll tell them to send it to you. Oh, I'd love it. Yeah, that's the wisdom pattern.

Order, disorder, new order, or reorder. Father Richard Rohr, man, you have put so much depth and breadth of love in the world. I thank you. It's so insufficient, but that's all I have. But it's just, I'm so grateful to you. You're beautiful. I look forward to meeting before I pass. Thank you so much.

God bless you. God bless you too. And just may just the wonderful peace be with you. It is coming through your eyes and your smile. Thank you. Thank you. Can you see me? I can.

Oh. I got to watch a dog right behind you. Well, that's Opie. Can you see Opie? Opie, you want to see Brene? Oh, Opie's way. Isn't he cute? Oh, God, look at that tail.

He's a Jack Russell Terrier. Oh, my gosh, so cute. Thank you, Father Richard. Love you. You can find out more about the episode, more about the Center for Action and Contemplation, all kinds of links on the episode page on brennabrown.com. Thank you for being here.

Stay awkward, brave, and kind. Unlocking Us is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group. The music is by Keri Rodriguez and Gina Chavez. Get new episodes as soon as they're published by following Unlocking Us on your favorite podcast app. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com. So you've arrived. You head to the brasserie, then the terrace.

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