Unlocking Us with Brené Brown - Brené with Gabby Rivera on Superheroes, Storytelling and Joy as Resistance

Episode Date: November 11, 2020

I talk with writer, storyteller, and joy advocate Gabby Rivera, the first Latina to write for Marvel Comics. Gabby penned the solo series America about America Chavez, a portal-punching queer Latina powerhouse. We also talk about her debut novel, Juliet Takes a Breath; how important it is to see ourselves in stories about the hero’s journey; and how joy is a form of resistance. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, everyone. I'm Brene Brown, and this is Unlocking Us. In today's episode, I am talking with writer, storyteller, and joy advocate, Gabby Rivera. She is the very first Latina to write for Marvel Comics. So we are going to completely geek out about superheroes. I don't know if y'all know this, but I'm a Marvel fan. Gabby penned the solo series America about America Chavez, a portal-punching queer Latina powerhouse superhero. And she is not just a superhero. She's a shame-resilient superhero who does vulnerability. It's incredible. We also talk about Gabby's debut novel, Juliet Takes a Breath, which will actually take your breath away. We discuss how and why it's so important for us to

see ourselves as the hero in the hero's journey. So many books and films about the hero's journey center just boys or men as the heroes, but not Juliet Takes a Breath and certainly not our Marvel superhero, America Chavez. We also talk a lot about food and we explore how joy is an important form of resistance. I'm so glad you're here for this conversation. I cannot wait to introduce you to Gabby if you don't already know her. And if you do, you'll get a chance to visit with her again. Support for this show comes from Macy's.

Fall is in full swing, and it's the perfect time to refresh your home and wardrobe for the sweater weather with new finds from Macy's. From October 9th to October 16th, get amazing deals on shoes and boots on sale at 30 to 40% off. And you can shop new styles during the Macy's Fab Fall Sale from October 9th to October 14th. Shop oversized knits, warm jackets, and trendy charm necklaces and get 25 to 60% off on top brands when you do. Plus, get great deals on cozy home accessories

from October 18th to October 27th. Shop in-store or online at macys.com. What software do you use at work? The answer to that question is probably more complicated than you want it to be. The average U.S. company deploys more than 100 apps and ideas about the work we do can be radically changed by the tools we use to do it. So what is enterprise software anyway? What is

productivity software? How will AI affect both? And how are these tools changing the way we use our computers to make stuff, communicate, and plan for the future? In this three-part special series, Decoder is surveying the IT landscape presented by AWS. Check it out wherever you get your podcasts. So Gabby Rivera describes herself as a Bronx-born queer Puerto Rican author on a mission to create the wildest, most fun stories ever. And having read her work, I can just say mission accomplished. Again, she's the first Latina to write for Marvel Comics. And her critically acclaimed debut novel, Juliet Takes a Breath, was called F-ing Outstanding by Roxane Gay and was republished in September 2019 by Penguin

Random House. Her podcast, Joy Revolution Revolution is available now. When she's not writing, Gabby speaks on her experiences as a queer Puerto Rican from the Bronx, an LGBTQ youth advocate, and the importance of prioritizing joy in QTPOC communities at events across the country. She makes magic on both coasts, currently residing in California. And I think she is incredible. Gabby Rivera, let's jump in. Okay, y'all. She's here. I'm with Gabby Rivera in her pink bedroom. And it is awesome. And she keeps tidying up, which is like now maybe my 1000th favorite thing about her. Welcome to the Unlocking Us podcast. Hey, thank you so much, Brene. Actually, it's called peach mimosa.

Is that the color? It's so good. We're going to take a screenshot of us together in a minute. And then people will say, oh, peach mimosa. Is that like a Sherwin Williams, Benjamin Moore? Do you know who makes that color? What is that? B-E-H-R? Yeah. Oh, bear. It's a bear. Okay. Peach mimosa. It's a good color. So you describe yourself as a writer, speaker, storyteller, joy advocate, and sinvergüenza. Yes. A no-shamer.

Yes. Without shame. Without shame. I love it. All right. I want to start from the beginning. Tell me about growing up in the Bronx. Oh my gosh.

I grew up in the Bronx, the North Bronx, right? The border of Yonkers and Mount Vernon and the Bronx. So 241st and White Plains Road, a lot of Puerto Rican family around me, and also the energy of a very diverse neighborhood. A lot of Puerto Ricans, a lot of Italians, a lot of Jamaicans, all of us just kind of living in this urban environment. I went to Catholic school. I grew up taking the subway. I grew up Pentecostal evangelical. So like lots of church, very strict parents, but like hardworking, affectionate, caring parents. My mom was a teacher in New York City public schools for like 35 years. My father was a salesman, very like, I don't know, very boomerific kind of parent, but you know, very sweet. Yeah, that was kind of my upbringing, like one minute being in church,

one minute being in Catholic school, and the rest of the time, like running around my grandparents' houses, listening to them tell stories and trying to be a good student. I always had to be a good student. Was there a lot of value put on that by your parents? Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Especially because my mom, like I said, was a teacher. So my homework had to be perfect. I had to get straight A's. I had to like behave and like, yeah, just you almost that stereotypical, like model minority generation,. Like because you're Puerto Rican, they're going to come down harder on you. So you have to be like the best student. You have to be, you have to behave. That was, it was tough. I had tough parents with high expectations for me and my brother. Fair to say tough parents, high expectations, a ton of love.

Yes, definitely a ton of love. You know, like my mom, she was a kindergarten teacher. So like for our birthdays, she would make the decorations herself. The year that my brother wanted Ninja Turtles, she handcrafted Ninja Turtles right before Pinterest. I love Pinterest. Right. But before all of those resources, you just had your mom and like some scotch tape and construction paper, you know, nerdy stuff. Right. Like on a Saturday afternoon, if me and my brother got good grades, we would go to the Barnes and Noble. Right. And like, we'd get to pick out like two books and what an afternoon. That's crazy. Very wholesome. Yeah, I love it. Were you a creative, imaginative kid? I think I was a wacky little kid. I think I was always making up stories and like giggling to myself as I do now, right?

Like writing and reading books. I think I read a lot of books. I think there were moments where I was like shy and I also got like teased a lot in school, right? For being chubby and for being a nerd and for being, you know, like having one eyebrow and thick glasses, right? So like, there's the part of you that's silly and goofy with your family, and you're singing karaoke, and you're doing your little like nerd games in the car, right?

And then there's a part of you that's just like, you know, writing in your journal that you don't have any friends. Yes. Yeah. Very like Shakespearean, also me like. So let me ask you this question. What role did storytelling play in your family growing up? Storytelling was like this like central way of exploring and explaining the world around us you know a lot of folks would be like puerto ricans in general are big storytellers but you know depending on your ethnicity you could say that about so many groups for us it was the bigger the story the better the funnier the story the better and juliet takes a breath there's titi wepa She's like the cop character, the tough love aunt. I love her.

Right. One of her big moments is just this random story about chasing a perp down Yankee Stadium. And that was kind of the energy in my family. It was always just some big story. And you escalate, you exaggerate, and you take the elements of your life that might be terrifying, like being a cop or just trying to navigate the Bronx on your own. You take those elements and you turn them into something funny, larger than life, something that you can share. And I just soaked it all in. If you were telling a good story, you got all the attention. You got all the laughs. You know what I mean?

Really? Yeah. If you were funny, everyone couldn't wait to hear a story. My dad was a big storyteller. I think it was like turning everyday moments into things that were more fun and more entertaining and ways to share family stories and tell us about ourselves and who we were and remember our ancestors and all of those things. Who was the storyteller that when they started talking, the whole place was wrapped?

The whole place was like, oh my God, this is the best. You know, I really have to say that at one point it was my DP soul. She just had that big story energy, the ability to sneak in all the like inappropriate jokes, right? And still be like giving the table, you know, like get away with the hilarity and the like silliness of whatever she was going through. Her and my dad, I would say my dad as well. My father could turn any meeting with a group of strangers into a big story. And those were my favorite things about both my father and that and his sister. They can tell a good story and be tough. You don't want to think your dad's cool, but there were moments when he would tell these stories that I was like, looking up to him, all that confidence and that charisma. He's not just my strict dad. He's also this guy that lights up in a room when he's talking about growing up in the Bronx in the

like 50s, seeing this whole other side of my dad, through his own storytelling. I think that's one of my favorite, favorite things. It still is. He still got it in him. God, I love a good story. Okay, so I have to say this about your writing. First of all, I met with my team before we did the podcast because we all read the book together. And just everyone is so floored by your writing ability. It is so poetic and so lyrical. The thing that sucked about your writing, especially in Juliet Takes a Breath, I was so hungry. I was so hungry the whole time I was reading it. Tell me about the role food played in your family. You know, it's interesting. I think about this a lot when it comes to,

you know, I'm still trying to figure out what it means to be Puerto Rican from the Bronx, living in the United States. My family didn't use the words displacement. But as I explore the relationship between the United States and Puerto Rico, that migration to me is like a big displacement. People could no longer survive on the island. And so you get pushed into the Bronx. And that story itself wasn't often really shared with us. I never was old enough to ask, why did we come here? Because coming here was part of accessing the American dream, right? So I got stories about the American dream. And what I got about being Puerto Rican was definitely through food. There was no fear in talking about the paranas at Christmas time, going around and

singing songs while everyone's cooking, making pasteles, making pernil, making arroz con gandules. Those were the stories that were shared. That's where the pride was. Oh my God, my grandma in the Bronx had this giant kitchen with a huge bay window. And we would set up stations to make pasteles, which are like the Puerto Rican equivalent of like a tamale, essentially. So you start with the like banana leaves, right? And then you have the aceite then. You got somebody who's mashed up all the plantains to make the masa. You have the chicken or the pork or whatever. You got the olives. My mother's job was to like wrap it all up in the special way and tie it. And so through food, I experienced so much of the culture of being Puerto Rican, right? Through food, I got to learn about my grandmother's grandmothers and their names like Doña Luz

Maria that was like, you know, she died like 40 years ago, but she's still here with us. So food was a big part of understanding who I was, who I am, and feeling that connection to my people and my roots. And then Julia takes a breath. There's just food everywhere, right? They send her off with a big dinner because that's what you do. Of course, my family, thankfully, could often afford to go eat at a restaurant, right? For the everyday celebrations, right? That's when you got the banquet at home. That's when you could tell the big stories with

abandon, right? Like because you're in casa with everybody around you eating your own food and like having that safe space. When you were describing meals in the book at home, I could feel the connection to ancestry. It was like a thin place. I don't know. It was so powerful. And God, I was so hungry because it wasn't just the pleasure of eating it and you describing it, but it was like the love with which it was made and what it meant to folks. Yes.

And my grandmother, my father's mother, Amalia, had a saying. I mean, it's a common phrase, but she'd always say like, donde cabe diez, cabe once. So it's like, if you can feed and fit 10, you can feed and fit 11 and 12 and 13 and so on. There's always room for more. There's always an extra plate. And so that was like, no one was ever turned away in our family.

We would always have extra folks over for Thanksgiving too. So there was a lot of room as well. Writing Juliet, I definitely wanted to make sure that everyone felt that room, that there was room for them to sit with Juliet and her family. Oh man, I felt it. it is so good. So let's jump into Juliet Takes a Breath. First of all, the cover is so incredible. But I love the top where it's a endorsement by Roxane Gay that just says fucking outstanding. You know, how dope is that? Right? Like, it's dope. Yeah, that would qualify. I can't pull off the word dope. But if I were to, it would be describing Roxanne Gay's blurb on top of your book. Thank you. First of all, that cover with the girl in the shaved head,

that is courtesy of Christy Road, who is an incredible Latinx queer, multidisciplinary artist. They have an incredible deck of tarot cards, The Next World. So Christy, we were able to keep that on the original purple cover when I indie published. And when I was working with Penguin, my editor Nancy Mercado was like, oh, we definitely going to keep that girl on the cover. And we're going to keep Christy's work. And when they plopped Roxanne's endorsement at the top, I was like, oh, look at this. Oh yeah. I know that feeling. That's a out of body experience, right? Yes. 100%. Can I tell you my little story about Roxane Gay? Can we? Yes. Oh my God. Yes.

So listen, when maybe it was hunger, I think when hunger came out, Roxanne was doing a whole speaking tour. And we were at the, oh my God, that bookstore in New York City, a housing works, right? There's a housing works in the Lower East Side. She did a performance there. I was so starstruck. There was no Juliet takes a breath out. So I'm watching her wait in line to talk to her, me and my girlfriend at the time. And of course, right, I get up to her and I'm like, Roxanne, my name is Gabby Rivera, la la la, I'm writing a book. I'm going to publish, you know, like that person. And Roxanne, like cool as a cucumber. She looked me right in the eyes and was like,

you published that book. You let me know. Here's my email. And she gave me her in the eyes and was like, you published that book. You let me know, here's my email. And she gave me her email and I was just like, I just couldn't believe it. Right. And so there you were, right. I emailed her and was like, thank you so much. You know, and we like gently kept in touch. And when I published Juliet, I immediately emailed her and offered her the book. I was like, here, take it. It was essentially me doing my own marketing promotion. When it was indie published, I was buying my own books and shipping them to everybody's little gay cousin everywhere I could, you know? And so she writes back and is like, hey, I'm doing a lot right now, but thank you. I'm so proud of

you. And to me, that was enough. A couple months later in June, my phone starts blowing up. Roxane Gay has finally read the book and has tweeted like six tweets about Juliet Takes a Breath. And then that was like the A-train to Washington Heights, to the magic. Wow. Yeah, that's from her, either her tweet and her Goodreads blurb. Yeah, that's from her tweet. What a great story. And I have to tell you, as someone who self-published my first book and like sold shit out of the trunk of my car. That is the A-Train. How autobiographical is Juliet Takes a Breath? I mean, it is pretty autobiographical. When I was 19, I fell in love with a book about feminism and made it my business to create an internship with the author in Portland, Oregon. All of that book

nerd energy, the like frizzy, excitable, goofy energy, that's like a lot of me in there with Juliet. The relationship with her mom is a lot of my trying to figure out my relationship with my mom and honor her at the same time. You know, it's essentially me writing about myself, but then also me trying to make an offering to all my little like queer Latinx folks, you know, we are allowed to be this as well. We are allowed to be goofy and nervous and excited and joyful. And like, we do not have to fall into any stereotypes or or or anything like that you know like we are allowed to be free essentially and so Juliet is super autobiographical it's like documentation and offering that I was here you know Brene like even now in 2020 like who's repping me? Who's writing about one, Butch Dykes, right? Like who out here? Who's really like, oh to certain beauty standards, who are like just navigating

this world literally in their own way, like forging their own path. So yeah, it's autobiographical, but it also, it like feels like my purpose, you know? Yeah. It's got some manifesto in it for sure. It definitely has an autobiographical vibe, but it also has a manifesto feel too. Yes. I like it. It's got some revolution in it. Thank you. Yes.

Tell folks what the book is about. Lay out the premise for us. The premise of Juliet Takes a Breath, it centers on Juliet Milagros Palante. She is 19 years old. She loves herself. She is chubby. She is brown. And also she is lesbian, right? Like she has come out to herself and is excited. She's also reading this book about vaginas and feminism and just things that she has never experienced before when it comes to like feeling empowered in her body in this one book. And so she's got a couple of things to do. She's got to come out and she's got to go on this internship with the hippie white lady who wrote

the book. And so, yeah, right away you jump in and she is navigating her family in the Bronx. She heads to Portland, Oregon. So it's that fish out of water tale. And then she does some serious reckoning and soul searching. It's like one of those like perfect summer movies, you know, where the kids like figure out who they are. And that is the, that is the whole point. That is the magic. You know what I loved about it so much is I'm a huge student of, studier of Joseph Campbell and the monomyth and the hero's journey. But damn, there are a lot of white guys making that journey. Very few women, very few women of color, very few queer women, very few disabled. I mean, like no trans women, like white guys are not the only people making this journey, right? Yes. And then you've got Juliet as a protagonist in this absolutely riveting hero's journey.

Hey, I love that. Yes. Thank you. The amount of women in the book is also really intentional as well, because I feel like a lot of times when there is a story about a girl, she must be surrounded by at least five boys at the very least. To give her context, encouragement. Like even Ugly Betty, there were multiple white guys in her life on that show in the American version that were there to boost her up. And it's like, first of all, that is very rarely the case, especially for me. The most people boosting me up in my life were women, queer women, my mother, my grandmothers. When I started moving in my journey as a writer, it was the Latina Writers Group. It was open mics for queer folks. It was like black and brown women creating writing spaces. You know what I mean? And so I think that was important. That's totally important for Juliet and for that perspective. You know, you're allowed to breathe. You're allowed to not constantly exist in this world of men and patriarchy. And so wherever I could in Juliet, that's like intentional. She is writing her own way. She is talking about her own delicious, curvaceous body. She is exploring relationships with other women

in platonic ways, in romantic ways. And there's none of that push from men to do any sort of thing or go any which way. And the male characters that are in the book are very intentional, like her brother, little Melvin. Oh, I love him. And the Twix bars. Yeah. He loves her. He's compassionate. He is gentle and creative. And like, if I'm going to write male characters, they are going to like push against the stereotypes. They are going to be compassionate and vulnerable and caring and do their work. About a year ago, two twin brothers in Wisconsin discovered, kind of by accident, that mini golf might be the perfect spectator sport for the TikTok era. Meanwhile, a YouTuber in Brooklyn found himself less interested in tech YouTube and more interested

in making coffee. This month on The Verge Cast, we're telling stories about these people who tried to find new ways to make content, new ways to build businesses around that content, and new ways to make content about those businesses. Our series is called How to Make It in the Future, and it's all this month on The Verge Cast, wherever you get podcasts. Support for this podcast comes from Klaviyo. You know that feeling when your favorite brand really gets you? you get podcasts. Making every moment count. Over 100,000 brands trust Klaviyo's unified data and marketing platform to build smarter digital relationships with their customers during Black Friday, Cyber Monday, and beyond.

Make every moment count with Klaviyo. Learn more at klaviyo.com slash BFCM. Let me ask you this. In Juliet Takes a Breath, Juliet's mom gives her a set of purple composition notebooks when she turns 13 with a card that says, reading will make you brilliant and writing would make you infinite. Is this been true for you? I mean, how did you start writing? Oh my gosh. I have been writing, I think, since my mom taught me how to read and write. There's even this picture of me at my first play school desk writing some stuff down. That was just always my safe place. One, we didn't have the internet like we do now. So people just in general read more and wrote more.

So for anyone really young listening, we did have that advantage, right? But I got teased a lot at school. I got bullied by boys and girls alike for all the things I mentioned before. And so writing in my journal was my release. It was my way to not feel alone. It was where I could put all of my sad thoughts and all of my questions for the most part. It was a place that was also safe from like my parents' watchful eye, just all of these things. And then, you know, as I became a teenager, then it became like poetry. And in high school, I was part of the Writers and Poets Society there.

And then at 17, I went to the Nuyorican Poets Cafe in New York City, the Lower East Side, the first Afro-Boricua, Puerto Rican-like spoken word place, the Mecca, right? And that just blew my world right open. I did not know you could perform poetry like that. I didn't know that words could be like hymns and symphonies from people. And then I was performing, right? So then I was always just at open mics, honing my skills, going to poetry slams, hosting poetry slams, like always performing. I had a lot inside of me, especially, you know, my parents were super strict. So there wasn't a lot of like talking back. I never yelled back at teachers because I was so scared all the time of getting

in trouble, of getting punished. And poetry was a way to just be so loud and fearless. And it released so much in me. I've written stories as I was a kid, but I did so much more poetry growing up. And I kind of left the writing of stories for a little bit that when I was older and performing, a lot of my friends were like, yo, you should write some stories. Let's get you in this anthology. Write something for this other one. I was reintroduced to storytelling through poetry and through making friends with communities of writers. I can feel your poetry in your prose. You know, when I was writing this book, Juliet Takes a Breath, in my mom's basement,

you know, no writing training, I would finish each chapter, and then I would read it out loud to myself, like it was a poem. And if you have that rhythm, then I would go back and write more and edit. And that's kind of like, how I navigated the flow of the book as if it was a spoken word poem. The lyricism is so powerful. I mean, and you are really the reigning queen of emotional, one line, drop the mic kind of moments. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's so good. Okay. So this is the craziest part to me. And I have to say to everyone listening, Roxanne was right. It is effing outstanding, this book.

It's incredible. The folks on my team that I read it with have already bought it for nieces and friends. So it is just, it's just an incredibly powerful, poetic story of a young woman on her hero's journey that is just, it's so good. So thank you. Thank you. I don't know what's up. Maybe it's like an emotional week, but like, I remember like writing Juliet and being unemployed and being scared that I wouldn't ever be able to like make my way in the world, you know.

And like, I remember just being like, if this book can give me just one opportunity, I will stay here. I will stay if I can just get a break. And like, so it's just wild. Everything, the whole journey is so incredible to me still. And to just like, hear you saying that, it just means so much. It really does. Thank you so much. Wow. I really, really mean it. I'm a better person having read it. So let's talk about one of these weird, crazy opportunities that comes from this book.

I have to caveat this by saying I'm a huge Marvel fan. Yeah. So I am because I have a son who's 15 now. And this is how I connected with him during those really hard middle school years, upper elementary, where he didn't talk to me about much, but we could sit down and talk about the Marvel universe and who's connected with whom. So tell me about who are Joe Casey and Nick Drogada and how did they find you? They created America Chavez, right? She is their creation. They manifested her to be Latina and queer. They did really good work developing her character for the Marvel universe. And then Who Found Me is just the sweetest, smartest editor guy named Will Moss.

He worked on like Spider-Man, just all sorts of like Howard the Duck, all sorts of random comics for Marvel. But he was put in charge of pulling together the team for America, the solo series. And what I love to share about Nick's story is that he's a white guy, right? A softy, feminist, intelligent white guy who wants to do what's best for his kids and the world. And so instead of saying, we're going to do America Chavez with Nick, Harry, and Joe, same team, same crew, he did his work, right? And he read books by Latinas and by queer people and went out of his way and did good research, right? And through that research, he found Juliet Takes a Breath. And so he passed it around at the Marvel headquarters and they reached out to me

just off of them reading that book. I was at work at my LGBTQ non-profit job, right. And I get this email from Marvel. That was like, so surreal. Just writing the book was this blessing. And I kind of was like, oh, this is great. And then you get this other opportunity and you're like, oh my God, this is astronomical. This is unexpected magic, you know? And so, yeah, they emailed me and I was like falling out of my chair, calling my mom because they love Marvel comics too. They're, again, 1950s, like growing up at the time of, you know, the Fantastic Four and all of that stuff. I kept thinking of that quote from Juliet Takes a Breath, reading will make you brilliant, writing will make you infinite. And then here you are, you get this email.

So are you like, nah, delete? Are you like, oh my God, what the hell? That quote is something that like, that was like a piece of offering right like there's a lot of times where ethnic mamas are seen as folks who don't encourage artistic creativity and so like that quote is specifically a note to all the young kids to be like yo your moms can and will say this to you you are and you will get this type of support. And I think I missed your question there, but that quote really is like PowerPoint. Yeah, no, because I do think there is a mythology that especially immigrant moms, first generation moms are like, we have no time for art. We have no time for creativity.

And I just, I'm like, that doesn't reconcile with all the creative people that are where they are today, because they had moms who said, if this is what you want, then turn your full force to it, and we'll do it, you know, so I love that we're double clicking on this a little bit, because it is definitely right. Like, so, you know, a little piece of that context too, is like, I really was unemployed. I really was experiencing also some familial trauma. Right. And my mom was there for me and like always holding space, always having my back. I had no job, right. I had no job. I had no prospects. My gender presentation was changing. It was just such a low point. And my parents could have been like, get a job. And instead they were like, finish your book. Finish this book. You've always been a writer. It's okay. We love you. You'll work it out.

And that space to, and I showed up to the table too. I did finish up. I did write every single day. And so that trust between us was like fortified, you know, by both of us giving my father, my mother, me giving. And so, so without that, without that space in that room, like I probably wouldn't even be here talking, I wouldn't have been able to finish Juliet. I wanted to honor those parents, those guardians, of tattooed on my heart is that, you know, when I finished my PhD program, I had $110,000 or $15,000 in student loans because I had kind of worked my way all the way through my bachelor's. And I wanted to write a book on shame, and no one would even get close to it from the publishing world. And so I didn't know what to do. And I turned to my parents and they said,

let us lend you the money to self-publish it. And I was like, oh, shit, I don't know if I can do that because I already have $115,000 in student loan debt. My husband has more because he was in residency at the time. So we have $250,000 in student loans combined. And then to borrow more money from my parents. And they were like, you know, write the book. And I remember all I needed was the change belt at some point, because I was selling that out of my trunk, you know. And I do think that, boy, if you're a parent listening to this, and you've got a kid who wants to be a creator, make the space. Right? Right. Let's go back to our superhero, America Chavez. What did you do when you read the email? You know, it came with all these warnings. So I was

like, is this spam? What is this? What is it? The red stop sign? That's like contents of this email, blah, blah, blah. So I was a little freaked out. And I run down the stairs and call my mom outside and be like, Mom, I think I just got this email from Marvel Comics. She starts yelling and screaming. My dad is like, what's going on? It was this whole moment. She's like, Nana, breathe. Whatever blessings are coming your way will come your way. Jump on it. It's okay. And then at this point, I also have an agent, not because I banged my head against the wall and solicited. But again, somebody named Joe Volpe read my book when it was on one of those queer indie lists that one of my friends had written. Right. Like no big names recording Juliet at the time.

And so the agent was like, oh, my God, let's work together. And she was super cool. She was the only agent type person that hit me up that didn't make me seem like I had to woo them or something. Right, right. I don't chase. Listen, growing up in the Bronx, one of the things my mother always told me was you don't run for the bus. There's always another bus coming. So I don't chase. I follow my goal.

I don't chase people. I don't chase money. Like, so I had this sweet agent I follow my goals. I don't chase people. I don't chase money. So I had this sweet agent, Jo Hope. She's still my number one person. And she's like, Gabby, whatever you want to do, we can just talk to them. You don't have to sign anything. You're not beholden. It's exciting.

But we want to make sure that you are protected, not exploited. So again, good supportive teammates, good supportive family. And then there we were in touch with Marvel. And let me tell you something. I spent my whole life hating superheroes, hating big hero movies because my parents loved them. And so of course, when you love,

when your parents love something, you're like, oh, I hate that. I don't want to watch Smallville. You know what I mean? Yes. I'm a rebel. So it was just this whole mental shift. And because it's like, you might not like superheroes, but you can't ignore Marvel movies.

Right. And like how big Spider-Man was and Iron Man. And so, you know, the weight of what it could be to work with Marvel. And it was just so chill right from the beginning. Will Moss, the other editors on the team were super open and kind. And they were like, just pitch a story. Nothing is set in stone. Just give us your best 12 episodes. I had never written a comic before. And I was momentarily overwhelmed, but also it was like Trump had just been elected. So in my mind, I was like, well, if I take any inspiration from him, it's that you don't have to have any

experience to do the thing that you want to do. He was never elected office before he became president. So I've never written a comic before. I might as well go for it. You know, like, I mean, that's right. And a lot of people don't have the qualifications, right? They're just somebody's nephew. So they get the job. So why should I hold myself back from this opportunity? I slapped that imposter syndrome so quick. Just smacked it right down, didn't you? Yeah. So I also asked Will Moss, I was like, what are your best scripts? What are some templates that I can use? Not just the comics themselves, but what are like real scripts that people submit? I was literally like learning on the go. That was the most intense professional development.

Oh God. Yes. It was awesome. And there I was writing comics and reading comics and like trying to navigate this whole new world. Tell me about inhabiting America. What did you want to make true for her? She's not your normal superhero. Like, I mean, I study vulnerability for a living. I would say she does vulnerability. She's reluctant, but she does vulnerability. With America, once I finally kind of got in the zone with her, right, kind of at about issue seven, which is one of my favorite issues, is her origin issue. I just had this idea of her being someone who has been displaced, who didn't get to grow up with her moms, who didn't get to grow up with the culture and the history of her people. And so I wanted to give her family. I wanted to give her untainted history.

Our histories are always tainted. You're either the colonized or the colonizer, the slave or the enslaver. And so if I'm Puerto Rican and I'm going to go through my history, so much pain has come from the United States. So much pain came from from the United States. So much pain came from like the Spanish occupation, right? Like so much pain has come from colonizers.

And there was a part of me wistfully that was like, can America just have her own planet that is like free? Can she at some point be able to witness the history of her people without erasure from a stronger military power or whatever it is without anybody's lies, without anybody's violence, right? Like, can she just have the beautiful history of her people? And so with America, like I wanted to give her that. I wanted to give her mentorship. That's why we brought Storm from the X-Men in on issue three, because without mentors from other women, especially other women of color, Black women, folks taking you under their wing, like how do you evolve? I wanted to

give her that. And I was like, I've never seen that in a superhero comic. So here we go. You know, there was so much backlash about my run of America. There was so much venom and hate and like people were losing their minds. And it's like, you know what? I don't care. You wanted a Chubby Dyke writer with joy and wiggliness who loves women, is pro-women, pro-gender, queer folks, pro-non-binary, pro-Black. You want radical queer shit. This is what it looks like. It comes with vulnerability. It comes with women in charge. It comes with compassion and historical exploration. It comes with fantasy, care, and tenderness. A lot of straight hetero white stories do as well, right? Like Star Wars is so full of compassion, so full of love. And sometimes I get confused because I'm like, why is that version okay? But my version isn't. When essentially the core components of both types of stories are compassion, community, joy, love.

Does it come down to who wrote the story and what they look like? It's that and who they choose to center, right? Like even, hey, she's like a skinny white girl, right? And she can't even catch a break in these Star Wars movies, you know? No, yeah. If they're going to hate anyway, I'm going to go for it. So we had America Chavez being mentored by Storm.

And at first they're sitting there trying to meditate. And America Chavez is like, I can't do this, y'all. I'm a fighter. I can't do this. So they get up and they start like practice fighting in the air and storm is like blowing America away with the winds and like trying to guide her as well. So it's like, you can have all the corny gay stuff, like mentorship and compassion and still kick butt. And still it is physical and still it is super, you know? It is super. And, you know, I think this was in your TED talk, which I have to say

is one of the best TED talks. It is just so incredible. One of the things you said is growing up in the Bronx was tough and people were tough and you had to be tough. There's a sentence in there that just reverberated for me. Soft did not leave home. So I want to ask you something. This is my researcher in me. The themes across your life, across Juliet's life in the book, Juliet Takes a Breath, with America Chavez, our superhero, you have to leave to find yourself. Is that a theme for you?

It is a theme to explore, right? It is something that has been kind of fed to us, you know, especially if you live in like an urban environment or a rural environment, there's this push, you got to leave, you got to go to the big city. You got to do this. You have to get out of the hood. You have to get out of the trailer park. All of these places that are full of real life and struggle and all of these places that aren't considered perfect places, we are being pushed out of them. We could even talk about displacement, right? Yeah. In Juliet and America, I definitely am exploring that. With America, she's kind of cast it out

from her homeland, not of her own volition, but just she's cast out because her mothers sacrificed themselves and she fell out of the wormhole or whatever the heck it is. And then with Juliet, she has to leave the Bronx in her mind to find queerness, to find feminism. In Juliet, especially, what she realizes is that queerness and pride in being Puerto Rican and all of these things that she's searching for are all within her family. Yes. And it isn't a white savior that saves her. Yes, this white lady's book was part of the powder keg, right? Like it just kind of loaded everything wide open for her.

And that's great. That happens a lot. But you don't need to like completely let go of yourself and your upbringing. And with America Chavez, it's the same thing. She is generic Latinx. Her original creators did not give her a country or island of origin. And I also did not choose to give her like Puerto Rican, Dominican, Colombian heritage. I wanted to like do outer space Latinx. So she comes from Planeta Fuertona, which is basically slang for like bad bitch planet. And she gets to see all of her history, unadulterated, uninhibited from her grandmother's sharing, right? The grandmother doesn't tell her story, uninhibited from her grandmother's sharing, right?

The grandmother doesn't tell her story, but the grandma leads her to the ancestral plane. And then there it is. There's all her history. There's everything she needs to know about this part of who she is. We're exactly where we're supposed to be going because we're on this hero's journey. So what I saw from both Juliet Takes a Breath and America Chavez is, and jump in, Juliet has this white feminist mentor that she goes to intern with over the summer in Portland.

America has Storm. But in the end, just like in every hero's journey, the mentor becomes imperfect and fallible and our heroes learn that they had what it took all along in their hearts and in their souls and is actually fueled by their ancestry and their origin. Is that true? Yes, that is 100% true. That is why Juliet ends with a letter to herself. It is like a poem. It is like a rallying cry. It is the embodiment of her last name, Palante, which is literally a Puerto Rican rallying cry made especially famous by the young lords. Palante, siempre Palante, we always move forward. We are always together. Yes. And she found that in herself and in her family with Julia, in her family, in her understandings of what it means to be Puerto Rican through learning about Lolita Lebron, exploring other queer women and the research component of what she's doing in Portland. It's not just about queerness. It is about understanding why certain women have been erased and how you stay present and how you continue to hunt and search for what you need for your history. With America Chavez, her journey for me, when you go through the whole book at the very end, she is in a position where she can inflict pain on people on a certain alien race

that has taken over her home planet, or she can find an alternative. And America Chavez finds that alternative and finds that compassion and a way to keep that peace and make an offering to both her people and that other group of folks that have landed where they live. You know, and to me, that is like also part of finding your power and your identity and your ethnicity. That doesn't mean that like you become the dominant force. It's like, again, like my grandmother said, where we fit, we can all fit.

Where there's 10, we can fit 11. You know what's really funny about America is that there were moments when I was writing America where my editors were like, Gabby, at some point, she has to fight people. And I would be like, but what if she's invested in restorative justice, you guys? What if she just wants to talk to Arcade and figure out where his pain comes from, you know? Like, no. So she, you know.

She can punch in portholes. I mean, that's like, that's her thing. Yeah, oh my God. Portals into other dimensions. So, you know. I wish I could have been a fly on the wall when you're like, okay, so the superhero that I'm writing for Marvel, it's like, this is not a small thing, is into restorative justice. There will be no pow, boom.

There's just going to be talking and understanding. I'm talking. And meditating. Okay. This is why we love you. Okay. Speaking of how joyful this podcast has been for me to do with you, you have a podcast called Joy Revolution. And tell me about why joy is important to you. You know, you don't come with the easy questions, do you? No, ma'am. That's my superpower.

With Joy Revolution, for the longest time, I allowed a lot of other things to get in the way of me being connected to my joy. I wanted to be like other people, believe it or not. I wanted to be cool. I wanted other people to like me. I was insecure in who I was. In your TED Talk, right, if we're going to do this, in your TED Talk where you talk about how someone has to believe that they're worthy of compassion and care in order for them to like to give it and receive it you know there was definitely a big point in my life where I did not think I was worthy of any of that stuff and a lot of people in my world were proving that to me with different forms of neglect

and like abuse and when you run with destruction in your heart, you find yourself in minefields all the time. Again, this is what you study, right? I'm going to tell you my sadness. I'm going to receive it. Yeah. You asked me about joy. Joy comes from having been crushed, you know, and having been like practically stomped out. When I was 29, my best friend died in a very public way. And it was something that was in the news for so many months. And it just absolutely like obliterated everything I ever knew and everything I knew of myself. It's like when you intentionally burn down a forest and then you're just the ash. That's what I was for so long. And through much healing and much

love and folks reminding me that I deserve to be here and much healing, I realized that I must honor my joy. I must survive. I must thrive. I have overcome certain things, but also this friend of mine, my best friend, she lived her life with so much love and so much joy and so much giggly giddiness. you know, and in her passing, I was like, I have to honor her and not just like live for her, but live with her, right. And live that energy and that spirit. And at first I didn't even know that it was joy that I was looking for. And when I found that word, and when I found that it was a word that a lot of people weren't connected to, maybe you talk about joy in church, but then that is a joy that comes after you're dead, right? Like, you know, heaven. I was like, this is what I'm going to, I have to hold on to this.

No one has ever told me my joy is important. So it must be the most important thing. It must be something that people are actively trying to keep us from. It must be something that people are actively trying to keep us from. It must be something that I honor and cherish and protect and show up for. It is the thing that heals me, right? It is the thing that got me out of bed when I had no hope left. The simple, small joys combined with the intentional healing and the joy in that healing that has kept me alive and kept me together and has allowed me to be so full that I can like offer and share. And with Joy Revolution, that was the give back because I had been so healed and because I had been so loved and cared for during the worst times in my life.

I was like, I want to offer some of that back. And also Joy Revolution to me was a push against a violent white media. Trump was just elected and all of these really intelligent media folks like Wolf Blitzer, Anderson Cooper, all these people who can comment on the state of things aren't pissed off enough to stop everything and change it. So we get to just play along and one station wants us afraid. One station wants us to hate our neighbors. One station wants to just talk about the riches and the wealth of the Trump family. So this white supremacist media is pummeling us on a daily basis and I am tired of it. And why not just talk to queer and trans people of color and allies about how we are preserving joy and have a space where I'm not trying to tweak your flight or fight

response, where I am not trying to pit you against your neighbor, where actually we're doing this to help each other be vibrant, gorgeous humans who love each other and who are fighting every day to make this world the better place we know it can be. I don't have time to have my spirit impacted by Fox News. Keep it. You want that in your life? You just go for it. It's right there. But for me, I need soft language. I need gentle language. I need compassionate spaces. And I need the type of joy that reckons with the world around it. The type of joy that is marching for reparations, is marching for Black trans women. I need joy that is holding the world accountable without trying to like pummel everyone down.

When I hear you describe it, the first thing that comes to my mind is real, true joy as a form of resistance. That's the hope. That is the goal. That's all I got. But we desperately need it because joylessness, it's its own pandemic right now. And it creates pain and then we discharge pain on each other. And that's all I see when I look around. I think this is the most I've ever talked about Trump. I normally try not to ever say his name. But let me tell you something.

Like people look at that man and his family as like this epitome of wealth and da da da. And I just see like a bunch of really hurt people. Like I'm like, who hurt you all. What utter pain and abuse did y'all experience as little kids that have turned you into these people who just don't care about anybody? And that doesn't mean that I'm like putting sympathy for them above my compassion for everyone else. No, not even a little bit because everyone's an adult and everyone can go to therapy as people of color. We learn that it's not our job to educate white people, right? On racism and compassion. And that I adhere to, but I do have a lot of room for the little white kids, the little queer white kids, little five

year old, six year old white kids in the classrooms because they got that good spirit. They want to love each other. They want to be loved. They want fairness. It's grownups that come in and violate, take away the joy, take away the compassion and the neighborly love and the affection even from a lot of kids. Joy revolution is a place where we're like, no, we come in with love. We are going to love on you. We are going to talk about this joy. We are going to show you that it is necessary and vital to cherish it and to manifest it all together. Yeah. And that is resistance. I mean, that's love. Not unicorn rainbow love, but gritty, real get shit done love.

Literally. Yeah. Yeah. All right. You ready for a rapid fire? Yes. I love this stuff. I play that game taboo. I can give you the clues, the hints. Oh my God. We would crush it because I am so good at that. We need to go on like a road tour. We just like play people for money. Okay. Ready? Fill in the blank. Vulnerability is? A blessing. Number two, you're called to be brave, but your fear that you're experiencing is real. You can feel it in your throat. What's the very first thing you do? Throw up.

Three, something that people often get wrong about you. My outward appearance makes people really uncomfortable and I'm just like a big softie. What people get wrong is they think you're soft or they think you're not soft. I think they look at me and, you know, people think dykes are scary. You know what I mean? They're like, oh, shaved head, tattoos, you know. Got it. Like, and, you know, people don't sit next to me on the bus. People don't want you teaching their kids. But, you know, Bush Dykes, man, we are the softest babes out in the whole land. In the whole planet system.

Okay. The last thing that you binged and loved on television? It has to be the Great British Baking Show. I just love that show so much. So damn good. Okay. Give me one of your favorite movies. Poltergeist. A concert that you'll never forget. Oh my God. Mariah Carey, 1994. Her first ever concert at Madison Square Garden. I was like 12 years old, living my best life.

Favorite meal? Oh my gosh. My cousin Gloria's arroz con gandules and pernil with platanos and tostones. Okay. Translate for us. Oh. Like it makes me hungry right now. So, but tell us what that is. Tell us what that plate would look like. Puerto Rican flavor. My cousin Gloria is an incredible cook.

So it's her rice with gandules, which are like pigeon peas. Benir is roasted pork with just, oh, just so crisp and juicy. And then platanos are plantain. You can fry them soft like maduros, Dominican style, or you can make them crispy tostones, Puerto Rican style. I mean, you know, yeah, either way, they're delicious. Okay. What's on your nightstand right now? Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. This is perfect. On my nightstand right now is Maria Hinojosa's book, Once I Was Beautiful. Maria, I love you so much. She's

also one of my mentors. Got it. Okay. A snapshot of an ordinary moment in your life that brings you real joy. For the first time in like five years, I am dating someone who is kind and lovely and generous. So during the pandemic, we just had no information. We were even scared to like look out the window at each other. She brought me a care package with soup and oranges and a little like stuffed bear. I have goosebumps. Okay, that's good. Tell me one thing you're deeply grateful for right now. My mother's unconditional love. Right on. Okay, we asked you for five songs you can't live without.

You gave us Ain't Nobody by Chaka Khan, Just a Girl by No Doubt, Sittin' on the Dock of the Bay by Otis Redding, Toxicity by System of a Down, and Unity by Queen Latifah. In one sentence, what does this mini mixtape say about you? I'm a bad bitch. Okay. I think we just have to leave it there because, Gabby Rivera, you are indeed amazing. And I'm so grateful for this conversation and the really important, joyful, thought-provoking work that you are putting in the world. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. What a pleasure to be here with you. Thank you. Thank you. Is that just the biggest breath of fresh air ever? I just love this conversation. I hadn't read a comic book in so long. I loved reading America. Chavez, I loved

Juliet Takes a Breath. A bunch of people on my team read it. It's incredible. I'm so glad y'all got to know Gabby because she's incredible. You can follow her on Instagram at Quirky Rican. It's just Q-U-I-R-K-Y-R-I-C-A-N. Same on Twitter. Podcast Joy Revolution lives wherever podcasts are found, wherever you listen to yours. Her website is GabbyRivera.com. And I have to say that joy as a revolutionary act is something that we are seeing every day right now in real life, real time, right now. Taking joy to the polls, taking joy to the streets, joy is a radical act. And I love this quote. I love how she says, no one ever told me my joy is important

So it must be the most important thing and I have to say that after talking to her about the joy of her family gatherings and the food I'm, so hungry just hearing about her cousin. Gloria's cooking. Oh my god starving I also love this thing, you know as we think about Thanksgiving coming up, her grandmother saying, if we can feed and fit 10, we can feed and fit 11 and 12 and 13 and so on. There's always room for more. There's always an extra plate. We all make enough space at our tables. Gabby Rivera, y'all, just so good. All right, housekeeping. Do I call this housekeeping? I don't know,

but let's start calling it that. Housekeeping. We could call it organizing and buying extra office supplies, whether we need them or not. We'll call it that section. This week on the Dare to Lead podcast, I'm talking with Aiko Bathia about diversity, inclusivity, equity, having hard conversations. We do this amazing role play around empathy that was so real and so hard, but I think you'll love it. So that's on Dare to Lead and is free. I think that's all I've got for y'all right now. It is a weird and hard and important time. So I will end where I always end, which the best advice for a tough time

is stay awkward, brave, and kind. And I'll see you next week. Thank you so much for listening. You may have just been treated to the pitter-patter of my dog coming in. Lucy, weird Lucy says hello. Unlocking Us is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group. The music is by Keri Rodriguez and Gina Chavez.

Get new episodes as soon as they're published by following Unlocking Us on your favorite podcast app. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com. So you've arrived. You head to the brasserie, then the terrace. Cocktail? Don't mind if I do. You raise your glass to another guest because you both know the holiday's just beginning. And you're only in Terminal 3. Welcome to Virgin Atlantic's unique upper-class clubhouse experience,

where you'll feel like you've arrived before you've taken off. Virgin Atlantic. See the world differently. feel like they're designed for specific tasks performed by a select few. Well, Clawed by Anthropic is AI for everyone. The latest model, Clawed 3.5 Sonnet, offers groundbreaking intelligence at an everyday price. Clawed Sonnet can generate code, help with writing, and reason through hard problems better than any model before. You can discover how Clawed can transform your business at anthropic.com slash clawed.