Unlocking Us with Brené Brown - Brené with Jason Sudeikis & Brendan Hunt on Ted Lasso

Episode Date: October 7, 2020

As the self-appointed president of the TLFC (Ted Lasso Fan Club), it was a blast to talk to Jason Sudeikis, the co-creator, writer, and executive producer who plays Ted Lasso, and Brendan Hunt, the co-creator and writer who plays Coach Beard on the Apple TV+ hit series. The show follows the adventures of a small-time college football coach from Kansas hired to coach a professional soccer team in England, despite having no experience coaching soccer. We talk about the show’s interesting origin story, writers’ room inspirations, and why intention is critical to the creative process. It’s a fun conversation about a show that is unapologetically awkward, brave, and kind. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, everyone. I'm Brene Brown, and this is Unlocking Us. In case you don't know this, in addition to being the podcast host for Unlocking Us, I am also the self-appointed president of the Ted Lasso fan club. Ted Lasso is a show on Apple Plus, and it's one of my favorite joys right now. It's just so fun and big hearted and funny. It's interesting because this is not the first time we've met coach Ted Lasso. We first met Ted Lasso when he starred in a couple of NBC promos after NBC acquired the television rights to the English Premier Soccer League. So Jason Sudeikis played this kind of wide-eyed American college football coach who was hired to be the new manager for a big Premier Soccer League

club. And of course, he knew nothing about soccer. These promos were so funny, especially if you know just a little bit about soccer, but you still don't understand offsides. They're just funny. And both promos were really successful. They went viral. They helped NBC build its audience for the Premier League games. And it introduced us to this guy that we really loved. So now fast forward, six, seven years later, and Ted Lasso's a new show. The whole first season is now completely out. I had to watch them painfully drip slowly, one at a time, like old school. But now, episodes one through 10, season one are out. And again, it's just funny and smart and kind and thoughtful and just unapologetically goofy

in the best way. And in this episode today on Unlocking Us, I'm going to talk to Jason Sudeikis, who plays the lead. He plays Ted Lasso. He's also the co-creator, writer, and executive producer. And I get to talk to Brendan Hunt, who is also a co-creator, writer, and he's the actor who plays Coach Beard. It's just a joyful thing for me to get to talk to these funny, smart guys about a show I love. Every time I watch it, I'll quote Ted Lasso right here for you. I feel like I fell out of the lucky tree, hit every branch on the way down, and ended up in a pool of cash in Sour Patch Kids. Support for this show comes from Macy's. Fall is in full swing, and it's the perfect time to refresh your home and wardrobe for the sweater weather with new finds from Macy's. From October 9th to October 16th, get amazing deals on shoes and

boots on sale at 30 to 40% off. And you can shop new styles during the Macy's fab fall sale from October 9th to October 14th shop, oversized knits, warm jackets and trendy charm necklaces and get 25 to 60% off on top brands. When you do plus get great deals on cozy home accessories from October 18th to October 27th shop in store or online at Macy's.com. What software do you use at work? The answer to that question is probably more complicated than you want it to be. The average U.S. company deploys more than 100 apps, and ideas about

the work we do can be radically changed by the tools we use to do it. So what is enterprise software anyway? What is productivity software? How will AI affect both? And how are these tools changing the way we use our computers to make stuff, communicate, and plan for the future? In this three-part special series, Decoder is surveying the IT landscape presented by AWS. Check it out wherever you get your podcasts. So for those of you who do not know Jason Sudeikis, he's an actor, a comedian, a screenwriter, and a producer. In the 1990s, he began his career in improv and performed with Comedy Sports and The Second City. In 2003, Sudeikis was hired as a writer for

Saturday Night Live and starred as a cast member from 2005 to 2013. He has been in a lot of movies that we all know, including Horrible Bosses, We Are the Millers. And now he plays my much beloved Ted Lasso. And again, he's also executive producer and co-creator and writer. Brendan Hunt is also an actor and a writer known for roles in the films Where the Millers and Horrible Bosses 2, as well as voicing two characters in the video game Fallout 4. After getting his theater degree, Hunt studied with the Second City in Chicago before heading to Amsterdam and joining the Boom Chicago comedy troupe. He, is co-creator, writer, and he plays my very just kind of heartthrob in the weirdest way, my coach beard on Ted Lasso. So very excited to jump into

this conversation with Jason and Brendan. All right, let me just start by saying that this morning, I was so excited. I've had 500 texts from my friends and my family members. And Steve, my husband grabbed me by the shoulders and said, I want you to hear me, Brene. And I was like, I hate it when you call me by my name. What? And he said, they're not real people. Like, you know, they're, Brendan's real and Jason's real, but, you know, Beard and Ted, like they're, those are characters. And I said, I get it. I'm a grown ass woman. Like, I get that.

And he's, I was like, what is your concern? And he's like, well, you're wearing a Roy Kent jersey. And I'm fearful because you talk to our kids like they're real. Like you tell them, I need you to Ted Lasso up here. Like pull a beard right now. Just stay quiet and do the right next thing. So I have to start. I couldn't decide whether I was going to start by saying thank you or congratulations, but I'm going to start with gratitude. God, this show means so much to so many people. Do you all know that? I don't. Brendan, do you? I mean, I know it means a lot to the people that made it.

I mean, certainly, you know, Twitter suggests that we don't know how many people are actually watching it, but it does seem that people who are watching it sure do like it. Yeah. But meaning to them, that's a whole other level. I'm happy to hear more. Really? Are you, like, being humble? Are you bullshitting me? Or do you really not know?

It's all anecdotal. You know, like I can only towards some of your, you know, previous work struggling with people who are critical of you or singing your praises. I know for me personally, having been in the quote unquote spotlight for X amount of years, you kind of like, if I'm not going to react to the negative, then how do I react to the positive? So, so there's a little bit of me that will always make the excuses of like, Oh, we're talking about a thousand people on Twitter, people that are really fired up and doesn't take anything away, but still you don't, can't quite quantify it because also the dirty little secret is that, you know, streaming sites, it's not like Nielsen ratings where we don't know

how many people are really watching, you know, they don't, they don't give even us that information, much less trades or what have you, or agents or managers and any of that stuff. So it's more ignorance than humility. Fine line, fine line. Yeah, no, fine line for sure. But so, okay, totally. Cause I had a special on Netflix. Like I'll just, just tell people who are watching this, you'll never see that data from the streaming services. But I want to talk more qualitatively as a qualitative researcher. When I did, just for preparation for this, a thematic analysis of the comments, I have about 10 million people across all my social media platforms. When I look at the comments for Ted Lasso, because I really shouted it out in a podcast. I've written about it. There was one comment that said, your TED Talk and your books saved my marriage. Ted Lasso

changed my life. Then I'll give you another example. So I'm taking 150 top senior leaders through a leadership training. And most of them are now watching Ted Lasso as leadership instructive. Does this surprise y'all? Again, yes. Because you write a song, maybe to get something out of you. And I'm not a songwriter by any means. And Brendan, please chime in here on your perspective. But you don't anticipate anybody dancing to it at a party or at their wedding or anything like that. You don't know.

You just sort of have to get it out of you. And you want to put it and you want to lay it down and you hope someone walks by and maybe glances at it. And that's nice. So when I read things like on the comments, like it really has changed my life. Or I talked to a group of therapists before this call and said, they're all Ted Lasso fans. What do you think's going on with this response?

They said three things, joy, possibility, and goodness. And so I'm so curious what y'all think about this response. Yeah. The thing that's fascinating to me is that, yeah, you come up with these ideas and myself, Brendan, and Joe in like 2015 talked about this show. And then Bill came into the fold in 2018, I want to say. but some of those are exactly things we talked about in regards, and it's all rooted from the character. But you don't, I just at this point in my life, don't expect anybody to, when you set something down, and you make something for them to respond to it in the exact way you had hoped. I mean,

I think that's so neat. But there's a lot, there was a lot of intentionality there. And it's rooted in a lot of things that I think people have always turned to for those type of things. Someone specifically like John Wooden and his teachings is very much a model for the Ted Lasso ethos philosophy point of view. Yeah. Brent, what do you think? that some there's been some talk uh i've seen people being like wow uh how we've sort of constructed this character of ted specifically to be this good person in this in this dark world and there's there's some truth to that but there's also in terms of like what's surprising about the reaction is we we kind of made what we think is a pretty normal guy like just in like in normal midwestern terms like he's certainly certainly to some degree the best of us,

but he was never thought of as a superhero. These are some folks that Jason's met in Kansas are like this and folks that I met in normal Illinois are like this. And it's just interesting that nowadays, yeah, that person seems like more unique and out there than Batman. No, you know what I think? I think this is really interesting. I just can't

turn the researcher in me off because that's just my jam, but- Go, do it. Yeah, be you. I think it's the fact that he is vulnerable and imperfect and he's not superhuman. And it shows us that kindness is possible in very difficult situations. I mean, as a shame researcher, I can tell you there's a moment, and I've never done an interview like this around a TV show, so I don't want to give it away because I think I need everybody to watch it so we can talk about it in its entirety later. But there is a scene where someone who is dealing with a ton of shame and pain has done what we all do with shame and pain for the most part, has discharged it on someone else. And then you've got Ted Lassa, who's like a freight train, who just stops the shame and blame thing and leans into forgiveness. And have we forgotten, do you think, that that's not super

human, that that possibility exists in all of us? I think we have forgotten that. I think that's a big part of why it was thrilling for us to conceive and then execute, because it did feel like a modern-day aberration, and yet it's in a DNA, like sociologically, like it can seem so trite, but there is such a bright, shining example on such the highest peak in this country and arguably in the world of ignorance and arrogance. And Ted is ignorant and curious. And I think curiosity comes from a power of being able to ask questions and truly empathize, like see what someone else is dealing with and there's people much more clever than than myself that came up with all those great

kind of quote uh you never know what battle someone else's is is dealing with you know everybody's life is a comedy a tragedy and a drama i think it was mark twain and i just think ted and our intention was for him to embody those things, but to do it in a sincere and genuine way. But yeah, I think we have forgotten it a little bit. And it breaks down the discourse and the opportunity for dialogue and loving someone for who they are versus hating them for what they're not. Oh, God. Yeah. So I have to ask. So y'all spent a big old chunk of time in Amsterdam together early in your careers. Is that correct? Yes. But I mean, Brendan, the most, how many years, Brendan, you were there? Five was my main chunk. And then I piecemealed a couple more afterwards because I just couldn't

let go. Yeah. And then Joe was there for how long? Joe, two and a half or three. Yeah. And then I was there for like five, five months straight, but off and on for a year because I was dating a gal who was there, so I would go visit. But I knew everybody there. And we were working at a sketch improv theater there called Boom Chicago. We weren't just going over there being American tourists. We were adding to the vibe of the city in a positive way. That was my takeaway.

What was your takeaway, Brendan? Because I'm so curious about how this informed some of the tension that's in Ted Lasso about being American in Europe. Well, there's some specific language of yours that pre-resonated with me because when I moved, I was in a very dark place. Basically, we'll get to the oversharing part, like, you know, life of verbal child abuse. My mom mom was alcoholic my dad was vietnam bed they got divorced when i was two i got married way too young and then i got divorced and um like i was just kind of a mess and then i got this opportunity to go to amsterdam in amsterdam the reigning philosophy of life is called chazalikhaid you know they want things to be

chazalik and to be chazalik is a meaning with a lot of different a word with a lot of meanings it can mean like comfortable like the lighting in here is really chizalekh um but it also can just mean like like oh let's not be a bummer to each other because that would be unchizalekh if there's a thing you are worried about but you can't change that thing by worrying about it then why worry about that thing that will ruin your day? That would be uncivilized. And one way around of saying, I was defined by shame and guilt. And this is a society built to completely abandon shame and guilt because they have seen that there's not much point in that. And that was why I stayed so long because that was a message of phenomenal value. And yeah,

that's what changed me because shame and guilt. And at least for a Chicago kid of lapsed Catholics, that's America to me at the time. And so it was cool to see a different option. Those are the patriotic emotions for sure over here. Those are them. And it's really interesting too because we do research on what denomination

and all the Catholics are like, we're number one. And the Southern Baptists are like hard roll them. And it's really interesting, too, because we do research on what denomination and all the Catholics are like, we're number one. And the Southern Baptists are like, hard roll them. They're like, oh, no, sir. Southern Baptists, number one. It turns out that we're all kind of jacked up on it across the board. So, say that word again. I'll never say that. I'll never be able to say that.

Chzellich. G-E-Z-E-L-L-I-G. It's the same ch as in like chutzpah. Chutzpah. Chzellich. G-E-Z-E-L-L-I-G. It's the same ch as in like chutzpah. Chutzpah. Chzellich. Okay. I see some of that vibe in Ted Lasso. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. And, you know, for what's worth, you know, Ted Lasso, yes, I play him. He is a guy on the show. But it's also the thing we talk about. It's like it's a vibe. Like Ted Lasso is like a vibe. You know what I mean? So it always gets a little tricky for me when talking about ted lasso

because it feels like i'm almost entirely the third person but i mean it for every it sprinkles down to every character i mean like the the opening titles that the the company that that came up with those the idea of ted sitting in a chair and then it it you know changing changing the environment around him it's it's you know ted is more of a white rabbit than a white knight. He sort of leads you to the thing and leads by example, almost like Michael Landon and highway to heaven or like Delores and touched by an angel where it's just like, I always loved the characters that I grew up with.

Like in the eighties, you know, Bill Murray doesn't have an arc in ghostbusters. It's like the city of New York city believes in ghosts around him. You know, like, uh, Axel Foley doesn't change in Beverly Hills cop. It's like the city of New York City believes in ghosts around him. Axel Foley doesn't change in Beverly Hills Cop. It's like the city of Beverly Hills and the police department changes around him. And that was like an archetype that I just thought was interesting that if you had your protagonist as a person who does change, but externally more than internally, at least for this season. Uh, and I feel that one of the big influences of Amsterdam, uh, and again, because there are issues and, uh, on the pro side of like shame and whatnot,

one of the two largest example of that are two of the biggest cliches of there is like legal marijuana and, and, you know, and legal prostitution, which, uh, you know, they've accepted as just part of their culture and so that being said doing mushrooms over there when i was there having never done drugs in my life was was legally very legally very legal okay but when you look at like michael pollan's work in his recent book how to change your mind and how and how psilocybin and hallucinogens are being used to treat people with ptsd and, anxiety and whatnot. And that book had just come out when we started writing the pilot for this.

And I realized that, oh, Ted is in the scholastic way like mushrooms. He is egoless. He does allow for people to be themselves and reflect what they think he is, but really what they are. Even as simply as Trent Crinn character, the critic, he thinks Ted is this. He thinks he's a dumb American and Ted doesn't try to persuade him. He just knows, just keep marching along slow and steady wins the race. He's felt that way before, as I say, in episode 108 within the darts game that he's familiar with that conceit, but he doesn't allow himself to be changed by it and try to prove other people wrong. He just knows the time. And I believe that that is rooted in the experience of living in Amsterdam and just accepting the world for what it is. And then the other half of losing ego is you're no longer just

your own thing. You are connected to everything. You see the matrix in terms of a lattice work of everything. And yeah, that's Ted's standard default position. And majority of time I've improvised in my life, especially when doing in front of a crowd, I've been sober, but I wouldn't be able to tell you the difference between being sober and un-sober, I guess, when you're in that zone.

I mean, athletes talk about being in the zone and it's just, you can just feel it. I know that happens when you go on a trip with your family or when you go on a road trip with your friends just you can just feel it i know that happens you know when you go on a trip with your family or when you go on a road trip with your friends you can get into that zone where you're finishing each other's sentences your banter just becomes second nature and you're just it's it's again it's a vibe and it was greatly appreciated that like michael pollan's book came at that time because i i think when you're when you're making something you're taking all things and you know I think about the maybe the story might be apocryphal but you know a lot of us know Simon and Garfunkel

because of of The Graduate and that's you know Michael Mike Nichols the director of that movie didn't know Simon and Garfunkel when he was thinking about directing that movie and I think it was like his brother was playing the album while he was making it in the other room and he's like what is this and it's like this is great perfect. And it's like, because his heart and his mind and his soul was open to all the things around him, it allowed everything that he was doing to be filtered through this idea of this film, this graduate, the characters. I think that's, yeah. And I think that like the story about the graduate. So, Brendan, I think this goes back to what you were saying too about the interconnectedness of all things. Like, in a five-minute period

of one episode, you make 50 connections that are so deeply human. I think there's something really important here, and I'll never get to it and I'll nerd out on it later after we hang up and I'll be, damn it. Send a voice note. Yeah, send a voice note, right? No, there's something about like even, I'm like a totally sober person. I think I have 25 years at this point, 24 years. And so I don't, but I know the zone. Like I know the zone. Like I was in the zone this morning, I was playing tennis. Like some days I saw, and I don't play any better when I'm in the zone. But I'm just like directly connected with something bigger.

Y'all connect these things, like semantic satiation. Like, where did that joke come from? Whose idea was this? I don't know whose idea was per se, but I think it came directly from the knowledge that that scene was going to use the Allen Iverson practice speech. So we're sort of setting up that notion of where there's going to be a word that's going to get said, it's going to get said so many times that it's going to change that meaning or it's going to lose that meaning. And so, yeah, we sort of retrofitted putting that definition earlier into the episode. I mean, like, so human.

Yeah, that was always been a favorite phrase of mine. Semantic satiation is 100% a real thing. And it's something, it's like that and trichotillomania, which is, you know, like, and tristate acophobia, the fear of 13. There are certain like phrases that I remember from whatever, 18, 19, 20, and semantic satiation was one of them.

So, it's just so smart. And the number of connections, like I've seen every episode three times. Oh, Renee. Because no, no, no, no, it's true. Because, because you know what? There's a definition of creativity that I love that I use in my own work, which is to connect the seemingly unconnectable. Yeah.

And y'all do that every five effing seconds on this show. So you cannot get it the first time. And so when y'all were talking about semantic satiation, I was like, yeah, I have that problem so much with mo, the word mo, like mow the lawn. Is it mo? Mo. That's not a real word. Mo.

And then I can also have it when I'm writing with the, and I'm like, the, the, the, but like, just, I don't know, the writing is so impeccable. So let me ask this question too, about, so I want to keep going. Who, are y'all in charge of the music? I mean, yes, to a degree. I mean, again, it's a team. I mean, I'll take claim for like being the final tube, I guess, like, you know, the sort of the final year and a, but depending on what song I can tell you where it came from or whose idea it was, at least to the best of my knowledge. About a year ago, two twin brothers in Wisconsin discovered kind of by accident that mini golf might be the perfect spectator sport for the TikTok era. Meanwhile, a YouTuber in Brooklyn found himself less interested in tech YouTube and more interested in making coffee. This month on The Verge Cast, we're telling stories about these people who tried to find new ways to make content, new ways to build businesses around that content, and new ways to

make content about those businesses. Our series is called How to Make It in that content, and new ways to make content about those businesses. Our series is called How to Make It in the Future, and it's all this month on The Vergecast, wherever you get podcasts. So you've arrived. You head to the brasserie, then the terrace. Cocktail? Don't mind if I do. You raise your glass to another guest because you both know the holiday's just beginning.

And you're only in Terminal 3. Welcome to Virgin Atlantic's unique upper class clubhouse experience where you'll feel like you've arrived before you've taken off. Virgin Atlantic. See the world differently. OK, I'm going to ask then. Okay. So I'm a Liverpool fan and have been for years. And so like on my bucket list, like number three is a Liverpool game at Anfield. So I had never heard You Will Never Walk Alone by Marcus Mumford.

It didn't exist. Yeah, that was, okay, so that's, okay. So that song is from Carousel. You might, you know, as you go through, the show, I would say, exists in the feminine space. I don't define feminine and masculine between the male and female forms, or any variation in between in these modern times.

And I believe that in doing so, what I'm very proud of the show is how much Ted and everybody on the show knows musicals because that's often thought as a female thing. It's like a feminine thing. And yet it is the way that I personally was raised. Brendan is a theater nut. Bill Lawrence can sing all of Les Mis in French. We have men and women that totally love and care about that. So a show, a song that's from Carousel that's been rebranded or I don't want to say co-opted.

Yeah. It's so often to have a negative connotation, but it was by Liverpool. That was something that I was made aware of by our good friend, Brendan Hunt here. And so, and it was Jerry and the Pacemakers did the original one. And so that was the comp that i was using but then being friends with marcus and part and you know i could speak separately about why you know i wanted marcus to do the soundtrack and why i think he actually ended up doing and and the score i mean him him and uh our friend tom uh i just heard him him singing that song and so i asked him if he would do that because i knew i knew what i wanted the feel of the final moments of the show and i knew it was too going to be to that song and there's lots of lovely versions and you have elvis you have sinatra saying that song barbara

streisand you can pick any of the greats but marcus is from the ground up with this show he loved the the commercials that the character is rooted in. And so yeah, it was literally just trying to do the Mike Nichols thing. Or another one of my other favorite things is the Quincy Jones quote. I don't know if you if you and your listeners have ever seen the documentary about him that his daughter Rashida made it. So I believe it's on Netflix still. Yeah, but it's incredible. And it goes through different parts of his life. But he talks about when you're making something that you want to get it like 75 of the way there and leave room for the magic so if i have this picture in my head and this vibe in my head the other thing when he said that i just saw recently was like you gotta you know get it to where it's supposed to be but

leave space for god to walk into the room which i think is lovely too i know some people hear the god word and make it you know uh they'll reject it in the same way people will reject sports outright. Um, but like, you know, for me it works as a metaphor regardless. Uh, and so if I have this idea in my head, then I got to stay open to Brendan's suggestions, Marcus's voice, and just the vibe going on that we want to go on, but the one that's actually going on. And then you try to find, um, what did you say Brendan about, you know, making those things connect?

Lattice. Lattice, yeah. Yeah. Because I often define the job of being creative as making the invisible visible, you know? Yes. And so it's, that's, that's the neat thing that great storytellers do for, for themselves first and foremost, but then also then for the people. Uh, Brendan, do you remember anything different about the, or separate from that picking of that song?

I think we certainly knew by the time we were filming it, that we were going to put that there. Cause we at least constructed some shots around putting that song in. But at that point we were thinking exclusively of the Jerry, the pacemakers, because that is the one, you know, that launched the song into the football sphere. And the football is also of course spherical um but then yeah um marcus just trumped it like i remember one day i'm just

sitting around and then you were like hey you got to hear this and it was uh you know it was a wave file of marcus just singing you'll never walk alone in his studio i was like oh yeah yeah we're gonna we're gonna be doing that instead. I sent it to Joe and I was, I was like, Hey, have a couple of margaritas, put on your headphones,

chill out and just, and just listen to this, you know, three times in a row. And again, it's when I heard it the first time, I mean, it's the neatest thing.

It's the closest I'll ever feel to like Quincy Jones, you know, or, or Jimmy Iovine where I'm like, I'm like, Hey, you know, Springsteen,

you don't sing that song. Have this person sing that song. Like it felt like that great moment where someone on American Idol just picks the perfect song and just knocked out and elevates it in a way that yeah, still gives me goosebumps to even talk about, but yeah. Oh God,

I had to stop it. I had to put y'all on hold. I had to put the whole show on hold just to pull myself together. Yeah. Like it is. And it transcended, which that song never transcends football for me, because I'm a Liverpool fan, obviously, but it transcended football. Like I thought, this will be my funeral song with a slideshow. Like, let me do it again.

Yeah, no, but I was like, because because i'm like i'm weird that way okay season two okay first let me just get to the nuts and bolts of this is that going to be in the next few weeks that we're going to be able to watch that no we're writing it we've been writing it for the past couple uh a couple months we don't we don't film until it'll be the same timetable as next year. It'll come out August. Yeah. Son of a sea cook. America, you gotta see the crushed look on Brene's face here, which is sad for her, but it's very

encouraging and heartening for our work. So, thank you, Brene. Really? Like, really? It's gonna be a year? It is, yeah. Well, I mean, less than a year now, right? Okay, so there are so many potential directions with season two that are fraught with tension and vulnerability. There's so many things that we need to unpack here with our friends.

Can you tell us anything about, can we expect the same set of actors? Can we, are we going to get like, there's so much work that needs to be done here. Yeah. There's there yeah same actors our production designers even asking hey do we have in the same sets uh yes i mean we're a little cautious precious uh especially when working for a company like apple of giving too much away but also for us because yeah again in this day and age of binging i i and i brenna i think you're on the same page, but like Bill Lawrence and I were, could argue 50-50 of, do we want this to all be dropped at one time per the norm these days, like all 10 episodes at once? Or do we want to space it out? I was concerned about maybe the noise of the world going on, swallowing up this little pearl we were hoping to drop into this mighty ocean of, you know uh public discourse and i um i i kind of love that we that we went

the way of spreading it out because the story was told to give you emotional and narrative cliffhangers and so that definitely occurs over over this break too where where when we drop in on this you got to play catch up for you know maybe the first half of the first episode or whatnot that a lot of that all those little knobs are still being twiddled and uh figured out here but yeah the cast is you know ted doesn't ted doesn't uh ted and beard don't all of a sudden go you know teach gymnastics in romania or something like that i so i'm gonna be so worried about all of my friends over there until i know what they're doing like i just really i need beer to get in some therapy, you know, and so, because he just, like, he just can't keep putting the chess and stuff in front

of the girls. And I need Ted to, like, I really, you know, my whole, my whole friend group, just for what it's worth, you know, we just, we need, we need some Ted and Sassy action. We need some Ted and Sassy. But I will tell you, Roy cannot underestimate the gravity and the grief with this transition out of football. And he's very important to everybody I know because he's full of fury and rage like all of us. But then he's got Phoebe who he kisses and holds hands with. So I'll trust y'all to take good care of my people during the second season. We got it. We certainly will.

And we love them too. Yeah. It works out i will say that you know in regards to the second season and this isn't me being you know overly convenient but you know part of the reason that we flipped as a as a text chain as a as a writer's zoom room when you uh you know tweeted about the show initially was that your name and your work had been bandied about you know in our first don't know, two, first two weeks of the writer's room. That's so nice.

And I believe, unless I'm wrong, Brendan, tell me I'm wrong, but I believe it was Brett Goldstein who brought it up, who is the fellow that plays Roy Kent. He also is a writer on the show. So talk about, you know, some synchronicity there. Yeah, I guess what I need y'all to hear is that you came, you knocked on our door, and we opened it, and then we peeked around and we invited you into our hearts. And now it's so important that y'all know that now we co-own these characters. Because we love them so much. Which is, I mean, isn't that the dream of a writer? Yeah. I mean, I think it's one part getting it out of you because you have to get it out of you,

that you're not making anything that's inconsequential. And I can only speak for myself and through myself that it's like, I just don't want to do anything that I don't care about. Ah, yes. Otherwise, if I'm not connected to the work I'm doing, then I think that's when you're an actual honest to goodness sellout. I don't think it's when you're doing stuff for dough or for a company or something like that. I kind of want to connect these last two things real quick.

I just sort of realized something about the fact that we parsed it out every week. And I'm glad we did too. And maybe that's some part of the connection that you're feeling with that buildup. But the people who were with us from the beginning and had that tension every week, what's going to happen? They're the only ones who are going to have that tension from now on. Because from now on, everyone will tear through it, which hopefully will be as good an experience. But there's kind of going to be a club of people who not just got to it early, but experienced the show differently than anyone who watches it from now on will do.

I definitely thought y'all sucked for dropping them one at a time, just to be honest. Just in the beginning, I was like, oh no, I was like, this is just bullshit. But then I got into it and I was like, okay, I kind of understand. I bet it was an intentional decision because everything about the show feels so super intentional. Yeah. On the creative side, it was. That was Apple's idea. And they have, again, numbers that we don't know. But I'm super nervous just because you're kind of like, ah, I don't know if people will stick with us. And that was true humility through just fear, like the actual, I think, decent kind of humility. Not fake humility, but where it's like,

I don't know if there's just so many choices out there and so many things what if people don't care about you know i mean you know you're gonna get the people that are gonna care from jump but but but what i think it did bernie was it did allow it to sit and and sit in people's um psyches and because of the quarantine i would even argue that it didn't even allow for it to be merely water cooler banter of like 10 minutes that it kept. There was a true, like the water cooler became, you know, the event or the country and like that ripple effect continued on. And I think getting to sit with a show, even a silly fish out of water comedy, if you give it space, you got to leave room for that magic, you know and and that magic is just as much what the what we're doing on the writing side or the actors are doing the acting side but also on

the viewer side to like allow them to put themselves in it and so you're only getting 30 minutes but then you have six more days and 23 hours and 30 minutes to like think about it and talk about it and live it i mean from business perspective, get the word of mouth out there and turn other people on to it. And yeah, the sense of discovery that I think is still one of the most powerful things with television and music. You know, when you hear a band, you've got to see a band in a small club before you get to see the Beatles at the Tavern Club.

It's like, that's yours. That's forever yours. I would encourage people to maybe try to watch them one at a time. And we did write it with that intentionality that you're speaking of. And I'm so glad you sniffed that out. I think it does warrant, as a guy that edited a lot of it, I've seen these episodes over and over. And I'm not crazy about watching myself, but I love watching the show because of it. We get to see everybody else.

And there are things that are set up in the pilot that pay off in the finale. And those things through repeated viewings over maybe the next, you know, nine months, 10 months will hopefully elicit more of that vibe permeating throughout the universe. No, yeah. I think that, I mean, I think one of the things it did too, I was just thinking again from a research perspective is it took away, you know,

a lot of the binging is also numbing. So when you have it a little bit at a time, it's not a great numbing tool. You have to pay attention to it. And the other thing that a lot of people are saying is that it's one of the very few shows that I have a 15-year-old and a 21-year-old. And when she came home from college a couple of weekends ago, Charlie was like, we do Friday night, we order dinner out, and we watch Ted Lasso, me and mom and dad. You have to watch it with us. And she's like, I haven't seen any of

it yet. And it's all mom talks about. Jesus, is it, you know, do I need? And so we binged it that night, the four of us, for five and a half hours over Indian food. Jesus, is it, you know, do I need? And so we binged it that night, the four of us, for five and a half hours over Indian food. And then I think we just, I think we even like Uber-eated cake or something because it was so long. But when it was done, she just said, nothing else makes you feel like this. Like nothing else makes you feel like this. And so like, not only does it make you think, it just catches you on that three-legged stool of affect and emotion, cognition and thinking, and then behavior. It's just, there's something really important about it that is, and I get it's a show, and I get it's a fun comedy,

and I get it's a workplace comedy, but I'm grateful. I guess I'll just, before we go into the rapid fire, I'll go into, I'm just grateful. I'm crazy grateful to get to make it and have people respond to that. And I think one of my true, true joys of it is how much we hear about people watching it with their family. And again, I was, you know, my dad took me to see Beverly Hills Cop when I was nine years old. And there's language in there. And that's Eddie Murphy, like, you know, at his height. And, And there's language in there. And that's Eddie Murphy at his height. And language are symbols. And if we understand the intent, there does get to be, with Roy and the F word, some semantic

satiation where it's like you lose the thread a little bit, as he usually does when he uses those words. But yeah, the fact that families are watching it together is incredible. I mean, it's so, it's so neat because those are some of the best experiences that I long for and love about, you know, growing up with my folks.

They took me to see, you know, mom took me to see Broadway. Dad, you know, would take me to go see, you know, Die Hard and Beverly Hills Cop and things like that.

You know, and Chevy Chase being a smart ass. That is, you know, that's who me and my sisters are. All right. You ready for the rapid fire questions? Okay. So I'm going to start with Brendan. Are you ready? Because you're in the top of my Brady

Bunch Zoom screen. Okay. Fill in the blank. And we're going to move at a pace. No thinking ahead. No cheating. I hate cheating. Okay. Number one, fill in the blank. Brendan, vulnerability is? Essential. Jason, vulnerability is? Essential. Jason, vulnerability is? Powerful. Two, Brendan, you're called to be really brave, but the fear is real. It's right there in your throat. What's the very first thing you do?

Continue being brave. Jason, first thing you do? Take a deep breath and think of my family. Brendan, something people get wrong about you? That I am not allergic to cats. Jason, something people get wrong about you? That I was in a fraternity or maybe that I would be. Okay. Number four, Brendan, last show you binged and loved.

I May Destroy You. Okay, Jason. Search Party. I haven't seen it. Yeah, Search Party is great. Yeah, it's on HBO Max. Okay. Favorite movie that you would not pass up if it was on?

The Blues Brothers. Okay. Pulp Fiction. Okay. Brendan, a concert you'll never forget? Oh, gosh, off the top of my head was Robbie Williams in Las Vegas. Awesome. Okay, Jason, concert you'll never forget? Watch the Throne Tour at Madison Square Garden with Jay-Z and Kanye West. Okay. Favorite meal, Brendan? A deep dish Chicago pizza if I haven't had it in like a year. Because I can only have deep dish Chicago pizza like once a year at this point.

It destroys my body. And I love it. Yeah. I get that. Jason, favorite meal? I mean, it would be some form of Kansas City barbecue with a whole bunch of friends. I can't be too specific about which place because they're all good. And I'd get ripped to shreds. Yeah, you should not do that, for sure. Pulled pork. Pulled Jason. I'll just tell you this one story about Kansas City. So I'm also a big football. I'm just a big sports fan. If it has a ball, I'm for it. Worst football

experience of my life, like 1990, maybe. Chiefs versus Raiders. I was in Kansas City for it. That thing is like a bar street fight in the hellhole of Texas, that game. Those people hate each other, the Raiders and Chief fans. Sold out, but the stadium's empty because it's negative like five degrees and sleeting. I was wearing a trash bag. And when I went to the bathroom, I couldn't move my fingers. So I had to ask a stranger to unzip my jeans because I was wearing a trash bag. And when I went to the bathroom, I couldn't move my fingers. So I had to ask a stranger to unzip my jeans because I was frozen like this. And so that's when I think Kansas City and I think of sports, I just think of coldest I've ever been. Okay. And I think of the kindness of people willing to unzip people's jeans for them. You know what I

mean? That is very Midwest. Yeah, that is totally about. Yeah. Yes. Actually, my hand was like frozen because I still smoked and drank back then. My hand was like frozen in cigarette form. What's on your nightstand, Brendan? A book that my baby mama's mama got me called Dude, You're Gonna Have a Baby, which breaks it all down into real caveman terms for my dumb head. God, big, big, huge congratulations. When are y'all due? Thank you. We're due in January. Right about the time we'll be in London shooting. It's going to work out great.

It's going to be great. It's going to be amazing either way. Congratulations. Thank you. I'm excited. Baby's going to cry in an accident. It's going to be adorable. Yeah. What's on your nightstand, Jason? Several books. The book that I'm thinking of, the biggest one there is a book about gambling card slights by a fellow named Steve Forty. I like magic. And yeah, so it's a whole big old tome.

There's two volumes of it. But yeah, the first one's up here. Yeah, Gambling Sleight of Hand, volume two. You gave us a little bit of that in Ted Lasso. Okay. What's a snapshot of an ordinary moment, a really ordinary moment in your life that brings you real joy? I have two hobbies that most people in my cohort do not. One is that I play an obscure German card game called Scott at a reasonably high level. And I'm also a hula hooper. So sometimes in my most meditative state, I will be up here hula hooping.

But while I'm hula hooping, I'm on my iPad playing Scott against people in Germany who don't know that the guy they're playing is A, American, and B, hula hooping. I didn't even think it was possible to love you more, and I do. Okay.

Oh, you have no idea. You have no idea, Bren no idea the weirdness just begins okay snapshot of an ordinary moment in your life Jason uh one as of late uh and it's been because of partly the quarantine but then also just you know his age but uh playing uh video games with Otis uh has been a great joy because you know my my dad grew up with like pinball you know they didn't have I I'm the I'm the age where I've had a you know, Atari I've had a controller in my hand my whole life and now that Otis is getting into it And all in moderation

but when we play we play we've been playing FIFA soccer together and him learning the sport that way and both how to deal with Winning and losing because he's kind of a you know He's a shitty loser right now It kind of bums me out and I just need him to not give up on things and so seeing him when he makes a great pass and like look you know sitting next to each other on the couch and looking over at him when this little smile comes across his face because he's you know he's not at school he's not playing you know he's not doing games and camps with his friends so i the the importance of ensemble you know work and team mentality is something that that's forged the person that I am.

And I know that that's a great way to sort of simulate it right now. But seeing the look on his face when he makes a great play and understands something is really, really amazing. That is a warm fuzzy, isn't it? It's a warm parent fuzzy for sure. Okay. Last question. Brendan, tell me one thing you're deeply grateful for right now.

I'm grateful for the child that we're about to have. It was a lot of work getting there. It took four years of science and it's finally coming and we're very grateful. It's amazing. Again, congratulations. Thank you. Jason, one thing you're really grateful for right now. Yeah, my friends and family. The family that I was lucky enough to be born into and the one that I've been smart enough to choose to have around me. That starts with Olivia, my partner, and all the amazing people she's brought into my life too. And yeah, interesting for me, again, as a researcher. I don't mean to do a deep dive on the inner sanctum of your souls, but the five songs you can't live without, Brendan, what I'd say, parts one and two by Ray Charles, Don't You Worry About a Thing, the great Stevie Wonder, Because I Love You, Lizzo, always great, Poison Rose, Elvis Costello,

one of my favorites, and Hey Jude by the Beatles, because you have exactly one tattoo and it's a Hey Jude tattooed. In one sentence, what are these five songs tell me about you? That I care about everyone getting out of whatever dark time they might be in at a given time. And that trusting that every storm passes and it's going to be okay. Beautiful. Okay. Thank you. Jason, If I Ain't Got You by Alicia Keys, Small Town by John Mellencamp. So Midwestern, I can just taste it from here.

Easy Lover by Phil Collins and Philip Bailey, which I had not thought about. I had to play it. Okay. Easy lover. It's so good. Yeah, sir. Yeah. It was A Very Good Year by Frank Sinatra. And great song, High Rollers by Ice-T. What in the wide, wide world of sports do these five songs say about you? I mean, the first thing that makes me think of it is that's the guy that used to travel with a lot of CDs in his duffel bag. That's like just lugging around, having a separate rolly bag just until the iPod, basically. Knowing why I chose each one of those, it has a lot to do with what I think it would tell about you.

Or at least it does to me when hearing those all back like that, is that I am a product of, I am forged by the people and situations I was lucky enough to be born into. Each one of those is about something else happening to me or me being around something or someone else's influence, how something gave me perspective on a different situation or world. But yeah, I think it's, I think that's why I get away from it.

It's so funny to think about it as like, you know, a connected group of five versus the individual. I love that. As a body of work. Yeah. It's my, I'm going to make, you'll, a connected group of five versus the individual. I love that. As a body of work. Yeah. It's my, I'm going to make, you'll each have little mini mixtapes with your faces on them. They'll be really cute. Okay. Thank y'all.

This was so fun. And I'm so grateful. I know y'all are writing, taking care of my people that all belong to the Richmond Football Club. And I'm just, thanks for taking the time and talking to me about it. It was really important and great oh this was a this was a blast i mean we're so truly flattered that you that you wanted to and that you you know again and using your platform to shine a light on on

you know our group of merry pranksters it's really um it's really been amazing and thank you for being so thoughtful and kind to the to the characters as well because you know that's what that's what you know they say be the change you want to see in the world. And I think our group is trying to write the change. All right. I just want to say thank you all to listening to sharing this conversation, sharing this kind of joyful experience and moment with me. Obviously, it goes without saying that if you've not watched the show, each episode is about 30 minutes. All 10 are now available. You can watch them on Apple Plus.

And if you want to, you know, I think it's always so fun when shows have their own social media handles, although it's not good for me because I have a hard time separating reality from TVs and movies that I really like. But you can follow Coach Lasso on Twitter at Ted Lasso. You can follow Coach Beard at The Coach Beard. And you can also follow AFC Richmond, which is not really a premier football club, at AFC Richmond. There's also an official Ted Lasso soundtrack. I'll link to it from the episode show page. I'll give you all these links so you can find out about all of

these things on brennabrown.com. When you get to the website, just look at the top and go to Unlocking Us Podcast and you'll find this episode and you'll find all kinds of great links to things that you need to find. If you want to follow Jason, he's just Jason Sudeikis. And Brendan is Brendan Hunting, H-U-N-T-I-N-G. All right, that is it for today. Thank you so much for listening again. Please, if you're in the United States, figure out a voting plan. Really dig into it and be prepared. Don't wait till it's too late. Unlocking Us is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group. The music is by Keri Rodriguez and Gina Chavez.

Get new episodes as soon as they're published by following Unlocking Us on your favorite podcast app. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com. Thank y'all. Awkward, brave, and kind. Take care. Support for this podcast comes from Klaviyo. You know that feeling when your favorite brand Thank you. every moment count. Over 100,000 brands trust Klaviyo's unified data and marketing platform to build smarter digital relationships with their customers during Black Friday, Cyber Monday, and beyond. Make every moment count with Klaviyo. Learn more at klaviyo.com slash BFCM. Do you feel like your leads never lead anywhere? And you're making content that no one sees.

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