Unlocking Us with Brené Brown - Brené with Lukas and Willie Nelson on Family, Love, and Music

Episode Date: November 17, 2021

In this episode, I’m talking with Lukas and Willie Nelson about their new album, The Willie Nelson Family, a collection of country gospel–flavored songs performed by the Nelson Family Band and recorded at Willie’s Pedernales Studios — where we recorded this podcast — just outside Austin. We talk about faith and family, music as church, and love — and how it’s really all tied together. We also talk about what brings us together, what keeps us apart, and what holds us back. We get some Nelson family advice — including their three family rules. And we end the episode with a surprise treat you’ll be singing all week. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, everyone. I'm Brene Brown, and this is Unlocking Us. And I'm so excited. Okay, y'all, special episode. I am talking with Willie Nelson and Lucas Nelson in this episode. That's right. The Willie Nelson and his incredibly talented musician son, Lucas Nelson. And this is a podcast that A, you'll want to listen to, but B, you'll want to listen to the very end because yes, it's true. They sing. And I'm sitting in a chair right across from them, watching them and like losing my shit, losing my mind. We recorded this in a studio right outside of Austin where Willie records and where Lucas records. They have a new album coming out entitled The Willie Nelson Family. And it's a collection of

country gospel flavored songs performed by Willie's family, and it is amazing. It is church. But did I mention the part where I get to have a conversation with Willie and Lucas Nelson? Let's just focus here. It was incredible. I'm so excited to invite y'all to share this with me.

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that mini golf might be the perfect spectator sport for the TikTok era. Meanwhile, a YouTuber in Brooklyn found himself less interested in tech YouTube and more interested in making coffee. This month on The Verge Cast, we're telling stories about these people who tried to find new ways to make content, new ways to build businesses around that content, and new ways to make content about those businesses. Our series is called How to Make It in the Future, and it's all this month on The Verge Cast, wherever you get podcasts. Before we get started, let me tell you a little bit about the new album. Again, it is the Willie Nelson family, and it's out November 19th via Legacy. And some of the songs are original. Some of the songs are ones that we all recognize. They're songs that I grew up hearing them on K-Buck, you know, radio in San Antonio on a transistor next to like my grandmother's husband, Curly, was a forklift driver at Pearl Brewery.

And oh my God, he just listened to this music along with my grandmother. My grandmother, I called her Meemaw. Meemaw would always stop and say, listen to the piano on this piece. This is the entire Nelson family coming together. Extended family, longtime band members, performing songs that they performed for their entire lives. Sister Bobby, sons Lucas and Micah, daughters Amy and Paula all contribute,

plus band members Mickey Raphael, Kevin Smith, Billy and Paul English. It's produced by Willie and Steve Shady, who actually, shout out to Steve, who recorded this podcast. And it's really, the whole album is shaped around a set list of 12 kind of spirit-driven songs from the Nelson family repertoire. Talking about the perfect holiday gift, this would be it. Willie's son, Lucas, who fronts his own band, Lucas Nelson and Promise of the Real, sings lead vocals on two of the album's tracks, All Things

Must Pass and Keep It on the Sunny Side. And he shares lead vocals with Willie on I Saw the Real. Sings lead vocals on two of the album's tracks, All Things Must Pass and Keep It on the Sunny Side. And he shares lead vocals with Willie on I Saw the Light. Oh, that's what a song. And also on Why Me. Why me, Lord? What did I ever? Okay, just incredible. I just can't wait for you to hear the podcast. I can't wait for you to listen to the album. Jump in. Here we go. Willie and Lucas Nelson, welcome to Unlocking Us. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Glad to be here. Yeah. All right. I just want to jump in and right off the bat talk about this new album, the Willie Nelson Family Album. Well, I'm really proud of it because all the family, we get to sing together, and Luke and Mike, Paul and Amy, and all of us get to... And Bobby.

Yeah, it's the whole family. Well, it's a family deal, so I'm proud of it. Tell me about, when y'all came together to make this album, tell me about the decision to make it a collection of spirituals, of hymns. Well, originally we were going to do a gospel album. And then we decided, well, why not just do a family album? We can include all kinds of songs in there. Then gospel songs are all good, too, In the Garden and all those things.

Sister Bobby plays really great piano. And we decided a family album would be... It would say the same thing. Say the same thing without getting too far out, you know. Without getting, you know, too denominational. Yeah. You know, we wanted to include everybody, so we didn't want to make it a completely...

If we called it a completely gospel album, then we'd miss the market. Yeah. So we play a lot of gospel stuff, but we include everything. Yeah. And I've got a double handful of gospel albums out there already. Yeah. And I think it brings more people in to just be more spiritual instead of religious in a way. Yeah.

That garners a hearty amen from me. Yeah. But I guess I can hear God in pretty much all honky-tonk music. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about what faith looked like in the Nelson family for you growing up. Well, we went to church every Sunday, and we had prayer meetings every Monday,

and we did singing conventions in Hillsborough, I think on Wednesdays. So I would just raise it up in gospel all around me, and I loved it. It kind of gave you a background to go and run on, you know. I remember growing up, my favorite gospel song that, I don't know if you wrote it or not, but In God's Eyes. Did you write that?

Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. But anyway, he said, all things must pass is on this record, too. Yeah, and it's a gospel. It's a gospel, too. And George Harrison, you know Harrison was a very spiritual guy.

And he felt God a lot in a different way than, obviously, the Christians do. But I feel it's just as valid and just as important to express. You know, it's funny. When I was listening, I got an early listen to the album, which I will admit that I got through half of one song before I was teary-eyed. And it was so beautiful. And the first thing I wanted to do was share it with my family. There's a definition of spirituality that I use in my work that is, like y'all said,

inclusive. And it just means I believe that we're all connected to each other in an important way that's bigger than us. Yeah. Absolutely. Some people call that God. My dad calls it fishing. God calls it love.

Yeah. Yeah. And when I was reading, this is Sister, Brother, Family, An American Childhood in Music. And it's a kid's book. And it's beautiful. And it's illustrated. There's a line in here.

I'm going to flip to it. That I just love the whole story. But you write that music was how you gave, received, and felt love in your family. Yeah. Can you separate, can either one of you separate faith and soulfulness from music? Does music exist without soulfulness and faith? Music brings us all together. I don't think there's anybody, any religious organization or whatever out there,

that someone in there doesn't like music. Yeah. Music is what people travel a long way to see, whether it's me or Luke or somebody out there. There is an energy exchange that takes place out there on the stage. I know we get the feedback from the people who like what we do and they like what we do or they wouldn't be there.

So there's a great reaction there that I look forward to at every show. Yeah. It feels like for me, when I play, I'm going to church. You know, when I'm going and... This is church. Yeah, this is church. This is church for us, yeah.

And when I go out and sing, and most of the time I'm singing about love, you know. And it doesn't matter if it's a church or a beer joint. It's all love. That's right. It's right. I used to sing at a place called the Night Owl in West Texas, down around Waco and West, Hillsborough, Abbott. And I'd sing to a bunch of people on Saturday night.

And the same people would be on Sunday morning in church. And I'd sing to them again at the Methodist Church at Abbott. So it's all tied together. Oh, I loved reading about that community in Abbott and that church community and what it meant to you and to Bobby, and it was just powerful. Yeah. Yeah. There's a saying in spirituality that I love that real spiritual moments are called thin places. And that means the distance between us and other people and the distance between us

and something greater and bigger than us becomes very thin. Sure. And for me, both of you make music that feels like a thin place. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah.

I loved a line in, I think it was, yeah, Letters to America. I'm reading all your books here. Okay. No joke. That at some point you had to choose between playing honky-tonks and teaching Sunday school. They wanted me to. Yeah. Yeah, I remember where that was.

Yeah, you said the choice was easy. I said, well, you know, I don't make any money. But when I play the night out, I get a pretty good paycheck. So I think I'll stick with what I'm doing. Can I tell you a story about how you're covering a song, you're singing a song really changed me? Is it okay if I tell you? Sure.

So it was probably, I don't know, 15 years ago. I was just turning 40. And I don't know, 15 years ago, just turning 40. And I don't give a shit about what they say. Around 40 is the new 20. 41 is the same old 41 it's always been. And I was just getting ready to turn 41. And I was having this super crisis of faith. And I just so lost.

And I ended up in Galway, Ireland at a conference. And the Celtic spirit stuff is really powerful there. So I had my iPod and I had been collecting versions of Amazing Grace. And I always thought that the line was, it was grace that taught my heart to feel. And I was always like, how is that going to work? How is grace going to teach my heart to feel? I don't understand. So one day before the conference started, I put on my iPod and I walked up a hill and there was a huge heart made out of stones that overlooked the water and the Aran Islands. And I sat on it, and I hit shuffle on my iPod.

And you came up, Willie, singing Amazing Grace. I can barely talk about it. And the way you sang that song, I realized in that moment that the lyric was not, it was grace that taught my heart to feel. It was grace that taught my heart to fear. Absolutely. And it was fear that grace released. Absolutely. And in that moment, I thought, holy shit, I don't know how to be afraid. I don't know how to be afraid. I don't know how to be afraid.

And I'm afraid all the time. I'm afraid as a mom. I'm afraid as a human being in this crazy world. And that's what grace meant. It would teach me how to be afraid. Because you know how I'm someone who can get, when I get scared, I get scary. Sure.

You know? Everybody, to a certain degree, it's hard to deal with fear. it's hard to deal with fear. It's hard to deal with fear. And then there you were, Willie, in my ear. It was grace that taught my heart to fear. Nothing wrong with fear. There's a place for it, you know?

I'm afraid of fire. I'm afraid of a lot of things. But I'm glad I am. I used to be a little bit different where I wasn't afraid of anything. And I've got a lot of scars to prove it. But it was you that told me that 99% of the things we're afraid of never come. Never happen. Never happen.

Never happen. As well. But a negative thought will release poison into your body and your heart and soul and everything. And enough of those negatives will cause cancer or anything else bad you can think of that can happen to you. But fear, who was it? We have nothing to fear but fear itself. But fear itself, that's the one, yeah. Whatever, Roosevelt or somebody like that.

Yeah, and the other one you told me was 99% of the things you worry about. Never happen. Because worry and fear are two different things. I think, like you said, fear has a place, but worry is almost, you know. I wrote a song called Imagine What You Want and Then Get Out of the Way. What does that mean for you? It means that I can imagine things that I want to happen.

And if I get out of the goddamn way, it's going to happen. Okay, so let me ask you a question because I'm in the goddamn way all the time of what I want. I mean, all the time. It's like, yeah. So if you get in the way of what you want, what are you normally trying to do? Like, what would cause you to get in the way of what you want, what are you normally trying to do? Like, what would cause you to get in the way of what you want? What's the red flag? Well, fear.

If I'm afraid of it, then wait a minute, maybe there's a reason I'm afraid of it. Check it out. Think about it. Imagine what you want, but then get out of the way and let it happen. Because I believe that energy follows thought. And whatever you think is still out there, that thought is going around the world right now. Whatever you thought is still out there, that energy is there. If it's a positive thought, that's really good.

If it's a negative thought, it could bite you in the ass. But it circles around the world and then it catches up with you, right? And bites you in the ass. You run into it again. Again and again. What about you, Lucas? If you have a vision or a real sense of something you want and you find yourself getting in the way of it, why usually? Well, mostly if I overthink it or if I'm trying to force it to happen. My mom gave me this book when I was a kid called What You Can See, You Can Be.

And I remember real clearly. And both of my parents, I think, are very powerful manifestors, if you will. My dad could see what he wanted, and he went there and got it from the time when he was 14 and had Bob Wills come play in Abbott, Texas, or was it Hillsboro? Yeah, I hauled Bobby's piano in the back of a pickup over there. Yeah, you were 14 years old. 14 years old.

No way. And he hired Bob Wills to come play the town there. Paid him $1,000. Paid him $1,000. And I brought in exactly $1,000. Not $1,005, but $1,000. Yeah. And then my mom, I mean, she's been working for Formula One,

and she worked for McLaren in Europe and was a dog groomer and then did makeup and just had so many different she's always a go-getter and she is always a go-getter and always made something and then when they found each other i mean that powerful combination raised me and so that book that i got what you can see you can be was really it helped me i think to tap into my own powers of manifestation. And I've always believed that I could imagine something. But in the book, it says, imagine it, and then put it in a bubble, and then let it go. Right? So it's not just something that you're obsessing over. It's just something that you've imagined and visualize, and then trust and find that feeling of trust and let

it go. And then just work, you know, do what you do and work. And don't be afraid to put in the time and work. And take opportunities when they come. And sometimes, like Dad said, fear can help you, but worry can hurt you. You know, I think that's the difference. Fear, just instinctual, whoa, I better stay away from that. Yeah, it's an immediate thing, but worry is forever. Worry is just a sort of a chronic thing that just keeps you locked in a certain mindset,

and it's not really helpful. It should be a very small amount of time that you use your brain to think through a situation, and at that point, there's no use worrying because you've already weighed every option and now you just got to trust and that trust is the hard part i think but once you can find a place to trust and for me that's what helps that's what's helped me to be able to let that little bubble go and just keep going imagine what you what you want. And get out of the way. That's so powerful for me. Imagine what you... So I imagine what I want, and then I just try to control the shit out of it.

Oh, yeah. I just wring the life out of it. Everyone has that same problem to overcome. Yeah. I had a therapist one time tell me, hey, Brene, the saying is let go and let God, not let go and let Brene. I was like, that's rude. But true. God knows what he's doing.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And on the other hand, I usually don't. So tell me what it was like. Y'all quarantined as a family. Was there a lot of music? Well, that's how we recorded this record, right?

Most of this family record was done. Because of the quarantine. Yeah, well, because we were up not too far from here altogether. And so we had time to lay these tracks down. And Bobby's just right there. And we really had everybody together. It was something that was made to happen. It was meant to happen.

For us to use that time that we couldn't go out and play somewhere to at least come in here. We're still making music, and that's what we love to do. Yeah. Yeah. We were very lucky to be able to have Steve there running the studio and just to be able to have this outlet. Yeah, have just, you know, to be able to have this outlet. Yeah, have a studio here to do what we.

Oh, man. Yeah. We kept us sane, I think. Yeah. You know, kept us believing. To a certain point. Yeah, well, yeah. We all had a breaking point, right?

Maybe it kept us functional. Okay, so I just want a couple of pieces of Nelson family advice for the world. I think we could use some Nelson family healing right now. Well, the family rule is don't be an asshole, don't be an asshole. There's three family rules, right? Yeah, I'll do two of them. I'll do the third one. Okay, don't be an asshole, don't be an asshole.

Don't be a goddamn asshole. God, I mean, just don't be an asshole, right? That's it. That's it. That's it. It's not hard. It seems pretty tough out there these days, I got to tell you. There's a lot of them out there. You know, I was, am maybe still, a gambler. I like to gamble poker, dominoes, chess, you name it. But I also used to be kind of a hustler.

One time I had all the best calf ropers in Texas get together and do a rope-off, and I would challenge the winner. And I never won, but I always come in in second place. I'm going to definitely use that somehow. You're going to see me on social media with a lot of second place ribbons moving forward.

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Okay, so here's where we could use some Nelson family energy. Okay. God, everyone's scared right now. Everybody's scared. Everybody hates each other. Everybody's at each other's scared right now. Everybody's scared. Everybody hates each other. Everybody's at each other's throats. What is your assessment and what's going on? Well, it goes back to nothing to fear, but fear.

This fear will poison you. We can be respectful, but not fearful, you know. You can stay in the house and get your vaccinations and protect yourself. There's nothing you can do about those who will not take a vaccination. You know, it's stupidity, I think, is rampant right now around the country. Maybe it's because of everybody being holed up for a long time. I saw this sign about six months ago outside a window that said, husband for sale.

You can make a lot of money selling those signs during this quarantine, I can guarantee you. I think it's important that we not demonize each other, that we not vilify each other. We have to be able to talk to each other without getting to the point where we call the other one an asshole. Because once you're into that place of name calling, then you're an asshole yourself. You know what I mean? You just got to that level, you let yourself go, You let yourself get to that place where your

anger is more important than the issue at hand. And I really think it's important to let go of that part and just try and communicate and reach a part of somebody else where you have common ground. And there may be a point where you can't. And at that point, then you just gently let go. But you can't hold on to that vilification. Short of somebody killing somebody, which has happened in this country. And there's a lot of fear. Yeah, panic. But to the point where we can't let ourselves be enemies of each other here in this country or in the world.

We have to find places where we connect. And if we don't, then we are going to tear each other apart, I believe. And so we have to find a place where we all want to live happily. We all want to be able to eat. We want to be able to have food and water. And everybody, I believe, when it comes down to it, when you forget about political affiliations, I think that most people, if taken away from their political affiliations, really do have compassion. It's just they've gotten into this mindset where it's like

a team. There's the blue and the red. And then, of course, there's just this perpetual news cycle. And so you have to really be careful that you don't associate with a certain team and you don't actually talk about the issues and you're not actually discussing rationally. And there are many people out there that are. But it's important not to associate or find your identity with the left or the right. Just find your identity with what matters, in my opinion. Also, there's the great communicator.

There's still a Reader's Digest book out there. Anyway, there used to be in the middle page, and it was two pages of jokes. Oh, God, I remember that. I remember that. And the name of it, Laughter is the Best Medicine. Yeah. Period. I remember that. I remember that. And the name of it, laughter is the best medicine. Yeah. That's right. Period.

I mean, I remember that. Yeah. And I have to say, I loved your, you had a lot of posts for a while about like, turn off the news. And that was helpful. Yeah. Well, I mean, because it was just, for me, it's not about inaction. In fact, it's about action. It's about putting down the phone and doing something. I met

a guy, a friend of mine, who's a big fan of ours, and he had a bad accident. And what happened was that accident had sparked him into action. And it told him before he was very concerned with every new news cycle. And what he realized after his accident was, I've been sitting on my couch and on my phone and watching this stuff and not doing anything about it. I've just been feeling anxiety about it because most of the articles on here have nothing to do with me. They're just something I have to read and I have no control over. But when he had his accident and he was laying in his hospital bed, he came to the point where, you know what? I'm going to join my local city council.

I'm going to actually get into local government because that's where I know I can make a difference. And so now it's a bipartisan thing, you know? He's just figuring out issues to make his neighborhood better. And everybody has the opportunity to, I think, in their lives, even if it's just with their family around them, to cultivate love in their garden, if you will. Turn off the news and build a garden. Turn off the news is the first step. Building a garden is really what that song means. And the garden is connecting with people and trying to find common ground and trying to figure out how we can make the world a better place,

because we can't by just continually clashing. We have to figure out a way to get along. Yeah. You know, and so that's really what that is about, to turn off the news and build a garden, do something. I think that maybe for some got missed when I first put that song out. But I'll tell you, every time we play that live, it's a big highlight because people connect with that idea. And I think inside, people know that they're being sucked in to the phones

and to the cycle. It's addictive. It is addictive. And a lot of people watch that movie, The Social Dilemma. The Social Dilemma. Right. Holy shit, that scared me. It scares.

It scares about social media and how, in a way, we're kind of being assimilated by these devices. And it's really important that we set that aside and go and connect with somebody and we have to learn to think positive about politics because it exists yeah that's a good point wow say that again we have to think positive about politics because it exists it's here it's going on my daughter sent me a thing the other day where it says, Viagra makes politicians taller.

Wait! Stop! Oh my God! That's so funny. Yeah. But still, we need politicians. Oh, my God. That's so funny. But still, we need politicians. We need people to represent us locally, nationally, world. We need them. But we need them to have a good attitude. We need the shorter ones. We need the real little ones.

To me, what your song said was, stop tearing shit down. Yes. And take that energy and build something better. Exactly. You know? Yeah. And what I realized when I heard it the first time was, at first I was like, ah, that's neat, but I'm not going to build a garden.

And then I was like, oh, this is deeper. This is a metaphor for stop using all your time and energy just to tear shit apart. Sure. And make something that matters. And there's so much being made right now. I just saw an article about the great garbage patch in the Pacific that's being cleaned up right now. There's new technology being rapidly invented right now. And there is hope if we put our energy in the positives, in the building, in the finding politicians that believe in the future of the planet and aren't cynical.

It's really important to figure out how we can build a better world for ourselves and our future. And there's a lot of cynicism even in our youth right now. And I think we have just gone through a really traumatizing time. Oh, my God, for sure. We've made the divisions deeper between us, but we have to find ways to repair those divisions. People forget we are the government. Yeah.

And we. Yeah. My mom's saying, you probably can't hear it because there's no mic, but people do forget that we are the government. Yeah. The government is the people, and we have to believe in that. We have to believe in that. We have to believe that we can put people in charge that have our best interests in mind. It's so easy to be cynical about that. And also believe that if we put someone in charge, we can also fire them. Yeah, hold them accountable, right? Yeah, exactly.

Hold them accountable. Yeah. If they're not doing what you want, vote them out. Exactly. I want to ask y'all one last question, and it's about music, because Dirk Heim, who was a French philosopher, they were studying this thing that they saw in church, and they thought it was some kind of weird magic. And they named it collective effervescence. Like, what happens to people when they come together and there's this collective joy? To me, the closest we have to that right now is music. When you're on the stage and you're looking out, and if you turn on all the lights and told people, like,

what do you believe politically? What do you believe about the vaccine? What do you believe? It'd just be a shit show, right? But there's a collective effervescence that brings us together with music. What does it look like for y'all when you see it? Like, when you look out and you see people loving each other and singing together, what does that mean? Well, again, it's me imagining what I want and seeing it happening and saying, thank you. Glad you came here. We're all in the same place. Yeah.

Wow. We're creating a place that we want to see. Yeah. That we're creating the world, like Gandhi says, you have to be the change you wish to see in the world. Well, the music, to me, ever since I was a kid and watching Dad go all over the world, I realized that music was a vehicle for a joyful life for me.

I could follow music and travel everywhere and meet people and bring people together. It's a win-win. I have fun doing it. They have fun at the show. I can make a living doing it if I play my cards right and practice and get good at it. And there's so much joy in learning a skill like that. in it, if I play my cards right and practice and get good at it, you know. And there's so much joy in learning a skill like that. And in a way, devoting yourself to something like building a skill like that is connecting to God, to me, too.

Amen. You know? Yeah. It's like an instrument of spirit. It's a weapon of soul. Yeah, I started something one time. I don't know if I finished it or not. It says, God is love, and love is God,

and that's all you need to know. Isn't that on the record? Is that on the record? Is it? I don't know. Is God is love on the record? No. No, it's not. No, I don't think it is.

God is the Borg. Play it right. The Borg. It could be a good Borg. Yeah. Yeah, God brings us together. But not in a, I'll take away your individuality and assimilate you. But I'll celebrate your individuality and our connection with each other.

Holy crap, did you just make a Star Trek reference? Yes, she did. I'm a Trekkie, too. Oh, yeah, me too. Oh. Yeah. Yeah, so my husband calls me the Borg because wherever I go, whatever accent they speak, I come back speaking it. My mom does that too.

You too. I don't know about that. Yeah, wherever you go, you sort of adopt the accent that you're around. That happens when I'm in the South a lot. Me too. I get that for sure. But my mom does that when she's in Italy. She's all of a sudden really Italian.

I love it! Alright, y'all. Could you play a song? Oh yeah, you want to play just outside of Austin? Or you want to play one from the new record? Play that outside of Austin and I'll play some guitar with you. Oh my God. I just want for everybody listening,

I thought about this moment and then I got out of the way and this shit's happening right now, people. This shit's happening right now. There you go. Imagine it and get out of it. We're in C. C, all right.

Yeah. Yeah. Cedar trees, the morning air The way the dew sits on her hair So peacefully below a Texas sky I think I'll leave her lying there Take a walk I don't know where Just bathing in the sunlight in my life I hear the sound of windy leaves summer birds and gently flowing

rivers, creeks and pools up from the spring the music of the water on the rocks is getting louder as I walk towards whatever life may bring Just outside of Austin High as I've ever been

Just outside of Austin I think I fell in love with you again. I went out to play the other day. The city and its city ways. A time and place for everything you'd say. But I just want to sit at home. Ride my horse or write a song a little bit of weed and i'm okay those nights when it's just you and me or maybe soon we could be three it ain't so bad a place place to raise a kid Or maybe we should wait

a while, no need to hurry nothing, I'm just saying I'd be happy if we did Just outside of Austin High as I've ever been Just outside of Austin, I think I fell in love with you again. guitar solo

Just outside of Austin I think I fell in love with you again again. Wow! All right. Oh, my God. There it is. Y'all will have to close this shit out. I can't talk.

Oh, my God. Well, thank you, Brene. Thank you for being on Unlocking Us. The new album is so beautiful. And just the timing of it, it's what we need right now so much. I agree. Yeah, me too. And I think a lot of people are going to enjoy it.

Me too. We had fun doing it. And the love comes right through. Yeah. Yeah. Lucas and Willie Nelson, thank you so much. Thank you. Yes, thank you.

Thank you, Brene. It's an honor to be here. Thank you. You're a fantastic author. Thank you. Yes, thank you. Thank you, Brene. It's an honor to be here. Thank you. Fantastic author. Thank you. Okay, can y'all believe that this happened to me? Like I wished it, I put it into the universe, and then I got out of my own damn way. Oh, what a moment. I want to tell you a little bit about Lucas and Willie. You know, Lucas, if you've never heard Lucas Nelson and Promise of the Real, what, the song that you heard is from Lucas and his band,

and to sit there and listen to hear him sing it, and man, that is a song that is so timeless and beautiful. I cry every time I hear it, and don't think I didn't cry in the studio. I really encourage you to check out Lucas's music. And then Willie probably doesn't need a go over, but let me just tell you, seven decade career. He's earned every conceivable award as a musician.

He's an author, an actor, an activist. He is just, he's Willie Nelson, y'all. Like, just icon. Just real icon. You can get all the links on the episode page on brennabrown.com. You can find Lucas's music and Willie's music wherever you listen to music. We'll put links to all of the books. Sister Bobby and Willie wrote a beautiful kid's book. I love.

If you saw like my coffee table, you would see a lot of Willie Nelson and Nelson family books. I just love them. All right, I appreciate you being here. We'll leave with two sign-offs. One, stay awkward, brave, and kind. And two, from the Nelson family rule book, don't be an asshole.

All right, y'all take good care. Chavez? Get new episodes as soon as they're published by following Unlocking Us on your favorite podcast app. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com. So you've arrived. You head to the brasserie, then theace. Cocktail? Don't mind if I do. You raise your glass to another guest because you both know the holiday's just beginning. And you're only in Terminal 3. Welcome to Virgin Atlantic's unique upper-class clubhouse experience, where you'll feel like you've arrived before you've taken off. Virgin Atlantic. See the world differently. The all-new reimagined Nissan Kicks is the city-sized crossover vehicle that's been completely revamped for urban adventure.

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