Unlocking Us with Brené Brown - Brené with Reese Witherspoon & Kerry Washington on Little Fires Everywhere

Episode Date: May 29, 2020

Reese Witherspoon and Kerry Washington are true creatives and storytellers, working to make timely art that is honest and vulnerable and truth-telling. Here’s Part 2 of my conversation on Little Fires Everywhere. This episode covers how Reese and Kerry worked with a team of other creatives to bring Celeste’s words to life. We talk about the challenges and responsibilities of creating authentic, living, breathing characters with complex internal thoughts. We talk about motherhood and how it connects us, changes us, and changes as it goes. And we talk about creating art that honors ordinary, complicated people from completely different backgrounds, while connecting us all together. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Earlier this week, I talked to Celeste Ng, the author of the book, and today we are going to talk with Reese Witherspoon and Kerry Washington, who both star in the Hulu series, Little Fires Everywhere, and executive produced the series as well. So the story goes that the book was discovered by Reese prior to its publication. When the book came out, Reese featured it in her Hello Sunshine book club, and it became an instant bestseller. She brought the book to Carrie. And together the pair approached Liz Tagelar to adapt and show run the novel as a limited series. It premiered on Hulu on March 18 2020. And there are eight episodes. And if you go now you can watch all eight in a

row. I had to like, I had to wait for each one to drop. It was just miserable in the world of binging television. We're so spoiled, aren't we? Again, the series stars both Reese Witherspoon and Carrie and is set in our favorite character in the book, maybe Shaker Heights. I think y'all know Reese Witherspoon and Carrie Washington, but let me tell you about both of them a little bit. Reese is an actress, producer, and entrepreneur. She has an Academy Award, a Primetime Emmy Award. Time Magazine named her one of the 100 most influential people in the world. Forbes listed her among the 100 most powerful women. And she is just a creative's creative. She is just building all kinds of amazing craft and art around women's

stories. It's incredible. And you know what? At the end of this episode, I'll tell you where you can find them, but it's much easier to go to the show notes on brennabrown.com other than me like listing all the web pages and the Twitters and everything else when you're out walking or very few people are driving around these days, but when you're out and about. Let me tell you a little bit about Carrie. Carrie Washington is an Emmy, SAG, and Golden Globe nominated actor, director, producer, and activist. She is a native of the Bronx, New York, and received high acclaim for her work in television, film, and theater. You may know her as Olivia Pope, one of my all-time favorite characters on television from the ABC drama Scandal. She just was so incredible in that. And a big barrier breaker,

the first African-American woman since 1974 to headline a network TV drama. She has earned two primetime Emmy nominations, a Golden Globe. She has launched her own production company, Simpson Street, which uses art, entertainment, and technology to share narratives that amplify our common humanity while affirming the value of every individual's journey. Washington and Simpson Street's latest release is Little Fires Everywhere. So sit back, enjoy the conversation or put on your tinnies and we'll talk as you walk. And if you're me, you can talk and walk with us even though you're just alone with your earbuds on the street because that's what I do. I'm a big self-talker. Children and neighbors fear me. Okay. Kerry

Washington, Reese Witherspoon on Little Fires Everywhere. All right. Kerry Washington, Reese Witherspoon, Little Fires Everywhere. So I want to start. We had a podcast with Celeste Ng on Wednesday. This is part two. I want to start from the beginning about your experience. I'm assuming, Reese, you read the book first and you were interested. Tell me about that. Yeah, I read the book. I actually ran into Celeste at a conference with a lot of authors and she said, I want you to read my next book. And I was like, oh, great. Yeah, I would love that. And so she sent it and I read the book. My head executive for film and television, Lauren, read it and she just flipped over it. And so I read it and it just, it's really spoke so much about motherhood and that your mother isn't necessarily the woman you're born to sometimes, or it is, but you can be mothered

by many people in your life. And I really identified with that and explored so many incredibly interesting themes. And so we optioned the book, we picked it at Reese's Book Club book, and then we optioned the book to turn it into a TV show. My executive Lauren was like, you know who would be amazing as Mia is Kerry Washington. I was like, Kerry Washington. I know her and I love her. I've been wanting to work with Kerry for so long. We've always just come in ships passing each other, but it just felt so exciting. So I was like wishing on a little prayer and lighting a little candle that as she read it, that she would see herself playing this character. It's very personal, you know?

So is that how it works? You, you reached out to Carrie and said, I'm thinking about you for this. Would you read the book? Is that, I don't know how that works. Yeah. She said, I found something for us, which was the best email in the world to get from Reese. But also like, oh, I wonder what it is. Like, you know, because that means she's cast it in her head. So I was like, well, I wonder what she's cast me as. This should be interesting. Oh, yeah.

Right? Like, what does she see as the perfect project for us to dive into together? And then I read it and I realized as with most things in my life, Reese was right. And it was perfect casting and really so, I just thought the book, it just grabbed me. It's just so gripping and so provocative and really moving and important. And also I thought it would be fun because we really like each other so much. And like my dad calls us photo negatives of each other, because we're like the same person in black and white or North and South. And so to be able to

kind of get in the boxing ring and not play that, you know, do something so different from our sort of natural heart connection. I knew that it would require us to sort of grow as actors too. So my first thought was reading. I hope they never make this into a series. I'm just saying, yes. Then I heard it was you. And then I heard it was the two of you. And then I was on like a prison calendar countdown until it came out. And I'm going to tell you why I'm going to tell you why. Why? Why? I'll tell you because the key, I think, to this book, at least from my, you know, because I try to turn things off, like my work self off, but I not going to work because this would require actors that can speak a devastating passage with their facial expressions.. Y'all were it. Mia and Elena had looks that I knew exactly what was going on. I didn't even need to read the book, but I was like, oh my God, I know that the subtext and the thought bubbles and the, you just inhabited these people in a way that was really breathtaking to me. Was it hard? Thank you for saying that, first of all. Thank you. What a lovely compliment. Was it hard? I mean, I think we had so much respect for the words and the Celeste, I mean, her book is just beautiful. If people can, I just wouldn't miss the opportunity to read the way she speaks about motherhood and starting over, about having the importance of things burning to the ground to start over.

There's a beautiful passage that Carrie's character says at the very end that is so vivid and descriptive about destruction and change and passage of time. But was it hard? Yeah, it was hard. The characters are tough. My character is so rigid. And I think the most difficult thing for me, and it was probably one of the hardest characters I've ever played, is that I was trying to invite people into her in the first few episodes because I knew where it was going wasn't going to make her very many fans. She is so, so shut down and rigid about her ideology. And if I didn't let people in with a lot of warmth in the beginning, then I don't think they would have gone with me on the journey, I think. Yeah, you both play characters that,

Elena more so than Mia, but Mia to some degree too, you both played characters that I was not crazy about, but I could not turn off my feelings for them. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's true. I think both characters, which was part of the challenge of what Reese is describing, they are real people. So they are injured and wounded and broken and have figured out how to be functional in the world in a way that that allows them to walk around and protect their hearts but meanwhile we still wanted audiences to feel like like they knew them like there was room to invite them into their hearts and lives so it was interesting to play a character who's so guarded for both of us a character who's so guarded, but who audiences could see themselves in their humanity, you know, like guarded with a reason, guarded with a reason so that you, you could get

on board for the reason and for the familiarity of like, I've been there or I, or I know that person, but, but that doesn't mean that they're quote unquote likable. It was funny because Lauren, who's our podcast producer, we were talking before this and she said in an acting class that she had taken that there was this line, you have the characters' lives in your hands. Are you going to protect them? And you had their lives in your hands and you made them human. Like we saw what was under the armor. Well, it's a great gift to have incredible writing. Our writing staff on this show was the most inclusive and thoughtful group of people that I've been around in a very long time. had these incredibly open conversations about race and class and sexuality and adoption and the immigrant experience in America. So that when Carrie and I arrived on set with these scripts, so much thought and care had already been put into the words and the journeys of these, not just our characters, but every character. And they have, I mean, you're talking about some of the most compassionate,

truthful writers. They just dig deep and they're not afraid of the ugly or the real. And they allowed us to go to really tough places with each other. I think within the, is it the first or the second episode you and I have that scene outside the bike shop? It's my favorite scene. When I ask you to be my housekeeper, my maid, I mean my housekeeper. I think it's the first. It's the first. Yeah. It's the first. And then I immediately don't know what I've done wrong.

And then I'm backtracking off at it, but I don't know why. I don't know what I've done wrong. And then I'm backtracking off of it, but I don't know why. I don't know how I've offended you. It's a really – I think it's such a well-written scene. And it was really fun to play with Carrie. Because she said some stuff off camera that was not the lines, Brene. She was not saying the real lines. What were you saying, Keri? I don't know exactly. I think I said some curse words at times. I like to play with actors and see... We have these... We get into these

paths, these paths in our brain of how the scene is supposed to go and how the lines are supposed to sound. And so I always think the magic is when we stir that up and it can feel like new because for you guys, it's new. It has to be new every take. So sometimes I like to change the lines when I'm not on camera to get people to see differently or hear differently. But you can only do that with somebody like Reese, who, you know, a lesser actor, you do that and they crumble or they freak out, you know, but somebody like Reese takes that and stands up, you know, fights back. And that's where you get the magic, you know, after action, because she's like so present and able to respond no matter what you say to her in character, as if she's that person. I want to make sure I understand this,

because this is so interesting to me. And I think everyone listening will think that so you do this scene that is so I'm almost loathe to call it a microaggression, because maybe a microaggression by 90 standards, but like a big ass macro aggression. So then you're going to have to do the scene again. But between takes, you kind of stay in your characters and you kind of go at each other a little bit and use that energy for the next take. Is that what happens? No, some people do that. Some actors do work that way. We don't really work that way. We don't really work that way. But after the director says action and you start the scene, let's say normally in a scene, let's say you and I are doing a scene, Brene, and we're doing a scene

about baking pancakes. And so the director says action and I say, hey, can you bake me some pancakes? And your line in the script is, you know, I'm not really in the mood to bake pancakes. And then I say, okay, that's the scene. So occasionally after we've done it a couple of times, I might say, sometimes if actors are improvising on set, the director says action. And I say, and you say, hey, can you make me some pancakes? And I say, go to hell. No, I don't want to make you pancakes. Get out of my face. Your reaction to that is going to be very different. Do you see what I'm saying, Brene? So I would love that. And so the camera's on you. So I've said something to you that's totally different from the script and you're going to be more surprised and more upset. And it doesn't

matter what I say, because in the edit room, we can cut out what I say but what the magic is that the camera has now caught you being really upset and surprised at what I said oh my god I I I love this this is so good that would be interesting because I would respond yeah yeah I must have done that a lot because I saw some like I was like oh my god if looks could kill they'd both be dead right now in some of these scenes. So Brene, it just shows you what an incredible director Carrie is too. She's an amazing director. So she would actually give me like incredible, she was like, may I offer you a suggestion, which is a lovely way. It was because I can choose to accept it or not. And it's a brilliant directing tool.

She did it too. It was great. We had fantastic directors, but in that scene when I was holding baby Em and you were like, don't say anything this time. And I was like, oh, that's such a good idea. We were really there for each other as producers, as actors, as co-conspirators. But what I will say is too, we're about the same age and that is really was acceptable as we were coming up in the business. And now, then I had to do these scenes at the very end of this series with the children where I do go off book and I have to say really nasty things to them. And then I was like, oh my goodness, this isn't the 90s. I have to go over and check and see if they're okay. That's right.

That I just went off book and hollered at them and grabbed their arms and all. And I'd be like, are you okay? Is your body okay? No, I don't mean those things. I'm just saying them in character. I had a conversation with Lexi Underwood, who plays my daughter and her mom. I had a conversation with Lexi and Lexi Underwood, who plays my daughter and her mom. I had a conversation with both of them at the beginning. And I said, Lexi, I'm going to push you. I'm going to push you. And even after the director says action, if there are a hundred people standing around looking, if I say something that you want to say cut, because I pushed you too far,

you can say that to me. Like you can push back, but I'm only doing it because I know how extraordinarily talented you are. If I don't think we're in the real zone yet, I don't want to go home until we've got it. I don't want to go home until I believe everything I've said and I believe everything you've said. What about this thing, just things that I've had to do, just small things. Like I can get up and talk to a jillion people about my research. That's easy. But what about this idea where if I were an actor, I would say, oh, I'll be happy to do that. I'm

only going to do it once though. You can't do that, right? No, no. And you really don't do it if you're the producer too. Yeah, exactly. Imagine. The thing about Keri and I both being the producers is like, we will stay longer. We'll wake up earlier. We'll show up more. And I have to say having Keri as a partner was extraordinary because she carries water and she sees everything to the finish line with the standard of excellence is very high. I don't say this a lot, but she's as driven as I am to get the right. I laugh, but it's true. And I do see a lot of similarity between us that, I mean, we have fun and we have a great time, but we also show up early. Yeah. I wouldn't want to just do it once because I don't want to

like stay late or come in early. I just feel like if you have to do it a second time, is that vulnerable? Does that feel awkward? Everything about this is vulnerable. Everything. It's so, I mean, I think that's one of the reasons why so many actors I know are drawn to your work and your research is because you are studying what we have to do for a living. Like we, we really have to reveal our hearts to, to tell the truth in the work. I mean, a lot of times what we're doing with the material is, you know, if you're lucky, if you're blessed as an actor, you get asked to play characters at the worst moments of their lives because that's good story, right? Like that's good narrative is you want to, what people want to watch is people dealing with big challenges. And so we have to look at the

material and look at the big challenges, whether they're internal challenges or external challenges, right? Like is the demon I'm fighting within me or is it a dragon I have to slay on a green screen? Either way, I have to be fighting big challenges and that requires courage. So what in my experience, Kerry Washington, can I use to relate to what Mia is going through? What can I reveal about myself, Reese Witherspoon, through these other words that you don't know I'm talking about myself, but emotionally I'm talking about myself on screen? That's what we're doing all the time. Yeah. That just, yeah. I just think, I just, I don't know. Okay. I want to, I want to- But you do it. No, you do know, Brene,

because you do it. You stand up. I do it. I've seen you live at Royce Hall. You stand in front of all these people and you tell your story. I mean, if anything, you do it with more courage than we do because we at least hide behind the mask of the character, right? Like, I'm not telling you exactly what happened to me. But I'm telling you, through her words, what happened to me that made me feel a similar way. But I'm still hiding behind the character. You're not doing that. You're telling us all your stuff, and we love it. But I think if I, I think if I had to do like, I'm thinking of a couple of scenes. Like, if I had to do the scene in the last episode with Elena and her kids and I'm not perfect. Yes, you are. I had to do the scene where, oh my God, where Mia is just getting pounded by her daughter for lying

and all the truth. Like, I'd be like, I'm going to show up for this one time. And then I'm going to need to take off a week. And if you need another one, you're going to have to have somebody else do that. Is it hard to come in and out of that? I mean, do you just go like, yes, you are. And then, haha, can I have a cup of tea? I mean, like, do you know what was crazy about that sequence with the four children and the very end is that, first of all, I have to say our incredible director, Lynn Shelton was with me and my partner, and she passed away a few days ago unexpectedly and very suddenly, not COVID related, but just a rare disorder. And I just want to honor her legacy of incredible, as a director, she created so much comfort for us to be uncomfortable and a space for us to feel

safe to lose control. Because that's what a director does doesn't judge you tells you to be as vulnerable as you possibly can when you think you're done to the last drop and you have nothing left they say can you do it one more time and then then they hug you at the end and say you did it it was. And she was all of those things. And I came in as a veteran, you know, I come in and I've got my list of things. I'm like, I want to say this and I want to do that. And I'm going to go off book on that. And what I didn't anticipate was four kids who had never been in these kind of, one of the kids had been in had to have a screaming, horrible fight on film with their parents to the point that it's like something terrible is going to happen to this family.

So with Lynn together, we found that with the children. we filmed all the children first. We pushed them emotionally by hollering things at them. Oh, it's brutal. It's a terrible situation. But we got to the end of it. And then they turned around and shot my side of it. And I was fried. It was probably perfect because I was just a raw nerve. And I'll never forget. I mean, it makes me want to cry. I'll never forget hugging Lynn and just saying, like, look at what happened. Like, we did that. And it took four and a half hours to get that whole sequence. But it's some of the most beautiful work. I'm so proud of it.

I'm so proud of Lynn and the legacy that she left on film with this show. I mean, I remember our meeting with her because we didn't know what, we did not know who we were going to be able to bring in to direct this because the show was so, the show is so complicated and you have to be willing to traverse

so many different ideas and themes and different perspectives. And she walked in the door and she solved our problem. Like she came in with this beautifully bound presentation with imagery, and she shared so much of herself in the ways in which she related to the story and from so many different facets, like how she related to Elena, how she related to Mia, how she related to the story and from so many different facets, like how she related to Elena, how she related to Mia, how she related to Bibi. I mean, she just really, she gave all of herself to all of these characters and the world of this show. And it is, it's just so tremendous to now receive it as a gift from her heart, you know? I gotta say that I did not know Lynn, but so many

people who I love and respect have written things about her that make me just think that the world's a little dimmer without her in it. Yeah, that's very true. The people that I know that make art that is real and honest and vulnerable and truth-telling seemed to have a shared opinion of her, that she made a lot of that possible. So she definitely left us with a gift. About a year ago, two twin brothers in Wisconsin discovered kind of by accident that mini golf might be the perfect spectator sport for the TikTok era.

Meanwhile, a YouTuber in Brooklyn found himself less interested in tech YouTube and more interested in making coffee. This month on The Verge Cast, we're telling stories about these people who tried to find new ways to make content, new ways to build businesses around that content, and new ways to make content about those businesses. Our series is called How to Make It in the Future, and it's all this month on The Vergecast, wherever you get podcasts. Hello, I'm Esther Perel, psychotherapist

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So let me tell you something interesting i'm talking to celeste and i asked her about the use of fire as analogy and metaphor and y'all probably know this that she did not know how many times she referenced fire in the book and that her agent said the publishing house wants a list of potential titles so she rere reread the book. And that's where she realized how many times fire had been mentioned in the book. And one of the titles she put on three single spaced pages of potential titles was Little Fires Everywhere. She had no idea consciously how much she was referencing fire. And is that news to y'all? Yeah, I didn't know that.

Yeah, I thought it was interesting because when you're reading and watching it, it's not just the fire analogies and metaphors, but it's the sense that I got both watching and reading of how flammable every single thing was during the whole time. There's so much tension about how this shit is going to go up in smoke any second. The fragility of it. The fragility. The fragility of it is like, it's going to take one tiny spark to set this whole thing ablaze. And so I just thought fire was so smart. The other thing that I thought was interesting is, you know how everybody, when you fall in love with characters, you want part two, you want something different. And of course, we all want part two of this. And there's not a book. But

when I asked her what she thought about the film adaptation, she said, What did you think? And I said, I got to consume two different things that were truthful and real and amazing. And they were different stories and there were changes, but there was such commitment and truth to the characters that never changed. So some of the storylines change because what you need to do on film is different than what you do in a book as a writer. I mean, I know that. But the fidelity to the characters was so real and it was so good. How do you do that? It was really important, even as we got to set, that we really incorporated more of Celeste's

language, I think, because her language is really particular. You can make a show about motherhood and never say anything really profound about it. But her language, there's one particular speech where she talks about letting go of your children. And I personally deal with this with my daughter going to college and my son is about to graduate high school. I think about it a lot that letting go of your child is like learning to love the smell of an apple when all you want to do is devour it, seeds and all. I've got it right here. Let me read it. I've got it pulled on my notes. Yeah. The whole passage starts with the line, which I thought was powerful. Parents, she thought, learn to survive touching their children less and less. And this is a passage from Mia's perspective. It was the way

of things Mia thought to herself, but how hard it was. The occasional embrace, a head leaned for just a moment on your shoulder when what you really wanted more than anything was to press them to you and hold them so tight you fused together and could never be taken apart. It was like training yourself to live on the smell of an apple alone when what you really wanted was to devour it, to sink your teeth into it and consume it, seeds, core and all. This was something I have to say that I thought I saw in both Mia and Elena. It's so funny because I remember when we were working on putting that passage into the script and I I remember having a moment of thinking like oh but I don't that's that's

Mia's thought I don't know how I feel about that being Elena's lines because it's Mia's thought and then I thought no this is exactly right because this is a chance for them to be the same person. And Mia witnesses Elena saying something. And if I can have Mia's reaction be, oh, my God, those are my words. Then it will it will build a bridge between these two characters. And that's the moment. Like that's the moment until the betrayal of hearing about what happened with my daughter a second later. You get that.

You get that these are two characters who are of one mind and it is that unifying motherhood experience of like once the moment they are out of the building, out of your womb, if that's your path into motherhood experience of like once the moment they are out of the building, out of your womb, if that's your path into motherhood, once they're on the outside world, it is just a walk toward individuation. It is just like more and more letting go every single day. However they come to you, it's just about like helping them, allowing them, fighting them, walking away from you. It is the thing that makes us all the same in our parenting.

To different degrees, we allow it or don't allow it, but that's the job, you know, is to let them be their own people, witness them being their own people. And it's so hard at times. It is. Before we jumped on, Reese and I were talking, I have a 20-year-old who's been quarantined with us for 12 weeks. Same. Same. Same. Yes. And she said, I've got to go back now. And I thought, I can keep you safer here. But she's got to go back now. And that's right, because I want her to grieve the life she has, because it means she built

a big life for herself. But it takes me to this other quote that I want to talk to you all about. To a parent, your child wasn't just a person. Your child was a place, a kind of Narnia, a vast eternal place where the present you, where living in the past you remembered in the future you longed for existence all at once. You could see it every time you looked at her. Layered in her face was the baby you'd seen, the child she'd become, and the adult she would grow up to be. And you saw them all simultaneously like a 3D image. It made your head spin.

It was a place you could take refuge if you knew how to get in. And each time you left it, each time your child passed out of your sight, you feared you might not ever be able to return to that place again. So beautiful. We saw that. We saw that in y'all. But isn't that interesting how we do, we layer the child. My daughter, Ava, I layer baby Ava, over 20-year-old Ava.

And it is my work as a parent of an adult child to let her become this individual that she needs to be that has nothing to do with my memory, has nothing to do with my hopes or dreams for what she will be. It has everything to do with those things that are of her own. And I feel like I think about my mom a lot lately and about letting go of this idea that your kids have to be a certain way or be a certain, or live close to the house or close to who you are. It's like the best thing my parents ever did was let me go. But God, how painful for them. Jesus, painful. Painful. My mother spoke about this morning. I talked to her. She was like, the day you graduated high school, I knew you weren't coming back. You know, it's so funny. I think my husband

asked my mom, was it hard in college? Because she was describing how they dropped me off at college and I hopped on my bike in Washington, DC and was like, bye. And like, took off down the street. And my husband was like, was that hard? And my mother said, no, because this is who she's been her whole life. So she has been like, I have been preparing for, I had been preparing for that moment on that sidewalk since she did that same thing to me when I dropped her at preschool. She's loose. She's on her way. She was like, by that time, I was like, if I cry, it's on me because this is who this kid is. So interesting. But she cried then at preschool. Yeah, no, I do think, I think one of the things that Celeste does that's amazing is gives us words to describe things that we do that we don't understand. Like, I do think I see my kids in 3D every time I see them baby Charlie, 15 year old going to high school, Charlie and 40 year old Charlie, like I just feel like, okay, I wanted to say this, it was interesting when I was asking her about the adaptation, I skipped this part because I wanted to share what she said.

She asked me what I thought. And I said, I thought I got to see two different things with the same characters, but the same story. I loved both of them really equally. And she said, this is the analogy she used. I don't know if y'all have heard it before, but she said, one of her favorite songs is hurt by nine, nine inch nails. And she said, Man, I didn't figure her for a nine inch nails person. But I was like, right on. Okay, so that's great. And she said, and then you hear all of a sudden that Johnny Cash is going to cover hurt.

And I just couldn't believe she brought this up. Because that's my all time favorite song is Johnny Cash singing hurt. And I said, Yeah, it's the best song ever, and she said, but you were worried about it as a Nine Inch Nails fan until you heard it, and then you thought, man, now I've got two beautiful things with the same words that I'm in love with. Oh, my goodness. Isn't that incredible? Yeah, that's amazing. And also makes me so happy because that like we, our dream was to make something that we could feel proud of and that honored her, right? Like it starts with her. So the fact that she feels that way is just so fulfilling for us as producers. It's rewarding.

I mean, that's the biggest hope when you option these books is that you honor these writers who have been working. Sometimes they've been writing these books for 10 years. Right. And you're like, I can't mess this up. The stewardship is really big. Oh, yeah. And I feel so responsible. And it was nice to share that responsibility with Carrie. Yeah. I mean, so brava to y'all, because for someone to feel like the difference is equally as beautiful and was fidelity to character she built and breathed life into. That's a big deal. All right. And can you say something else? You know, what a time we're in, like that Carrie and I are able to get something like this made at this level. I think about six, seven years ago when I walked into major studios with projects

like this and they were like, we're not making books. We're not making adaptations with two women starring in them. About motherhood? About motherhood. And you think about the years and years of lost storytelling. We were also, as the actresses, told not to play mothers. It would age us. It's the death of your career to be somebody.

Really? Oh, yeah. And when streaming emerged and storytelling diversified and there was empirical data that more than just young white little boys wanted to see movies and television, when it wasn't a guest anymore and there was actual data that said, there's an audience out there for these kinds of shows. It opened up a world for us as storytellers. So it's such a gift that I take so much to heart that I'm able to be a producer with Carrie and bring a story that is so meaningful about the spectrum of the female experience. Because it's not just her and I.

It's a young Chinese immigrant woman. It's a mother who can't conceive and adopts a baby. And there's all sorts of mothering in this show. And it's not binary. It's not like the good mom does this and the bad mom does this. It's like, no, every person has done things that would horrify you as a parent. We, you know, someone said, oh, somebody said, oh, I can't believe she's screaming at her kids like that.

I guarantee you every person who watched it has watched someone scream at their children like that. Or is the person screaming at their children like that? Or got screamed at like that. That's right. I couldn't even watch the Christmas cards scene. I couldn't even like, I couldn't even watch it. My daughter was just looking away because, you know, I'm like, get in the effing picture because this is a Christmas card and we're joyful. God damn it. You know, like that's like, I couldn't even watch picture because this is a Christmas card and we're joyful. God damn it. You know, like that's like I couldn't even watch it. And then, you know, because I'm under Christmas dress and, you know, like I have motherhood questions for y'all.

But for both of you, I want I'd love to. So. So this quote, this is from Celeste. It takes a minute to read it, but it's it's worth it. All her life, she had learned that passion like fire was a dangerous thing and so easily went out of control. It scaled walls and jumped over trenches. Sparks leapt like fleas and spread as rapidly. A breeze could carry embers for miles. Better to control that spark and pass it carefully from one generation to the next, like an Olympic torch, or perhaps tend to it carefully like an internal flame. It reminds me of when I was

getting my PhD, I got pregnant. We were trying to get pregnant and I got pregnant the second year of my PhD program. And I remember going into school and telling my PhD committee that I was pregnant. And the first person to say anything was my committee chair who said, we really thought you had a career. We really thought you were going to be someone. And yeah, and I read I remembered a quote from Carl Jung that we had studied that said, the greatest burden a child must bear is the unlived life of its parents. And I thought about Pearl and I thought about Elena's kids and I thought about the burden of the unlived life. Because I think that's actually true. I do too.

It's one of my favorite young women quotes. Yeah, I think it's true. So tell me how y'all, as people, not me and Elena, are making sure that that's not a burden that your kids carry? I don't know. I don't, I just want to say, I think it's a practice. Like I don't, I can't sit here and say like, I know that I am, that I'm not giving my kids that burden, but I know that I'm conscious of, of trying to lessen their burden by, by attempting to live fully and authentically in my life and in my career, you know, knowing that, that, that, you know, it's not just about putting your own oxygen mask on first because self-care is important, but also this idea that I will impact their ability to make choices for themselves if I don't make authentic choices for myself. Just to try to practice that awareness and ask authenticity of myself.

I just, I attempt that. Practice. Trying not to live small, I think, is the big one that I work on and work through. Yeah, I think that's really well said, Carrie. I feel like I practice the same sort of thing and try and, you know, I think I had Ava when I was really young, like 22 and 23, and we definitely talk about what was that like for me. And it didn't diminish my dreams. You know, I was still working and I never, you know, my mother had this incredible work ethic, she had three jobs all the time. So I never, I never thought, oh, I'm going to give

that up or I can't, I could afford to have a child at that time. But I do think about, I guess, I don't know. I sometimes I think people burden their children with their expectations for them. And because it is the life they didn't live, I've lived a lot of great parts of my dreams. I think I see people putting their ideas of what they wanted onto their kids. And I try really, really hard just to say, what do you want? And really work on cultivating that language out of them. And let's focus on that too. And you don't have to be good at everything, but let's focus on what your dreams are.

Because this is the time when they're like 16 to 25 is when you have to really start doing that emotional psychological investment in them and going, okay, okay, but let's be practical. Is that a good idea? How are you going to get there? Okay, what have you done to get towards your goals and dreams today? So it's really fascinating to me how you have to pivot as a parent as your children get older. Oh, God, yeah.

It's somebody, I mean, I'm sure lots of people have written books about it, but it's just, it is really a completely different skill set. And I find people going, just be like me or just do what I say. This doesn't work like that. You have to earn your adult children's respect, I think. You know, one of the things I think, Brene, when I so beautifully said Reese, when I think about that quote, I don't just think about parenting. I first have to think about myself as a daughter because I first have to ask myself, like, how was I impacted by my mother's unlived life? And then, like, can it stop with me?

Right? Like, can this sort of generational ideology that's been passed on. It was passed on to me. I know, I know exactly. And I've thought about it a lot. We recently joked around that because we were, we were teenagers in the nineties. So in a lot of ways playing these characters, it was like stepping into our mother's shoes because our mothers were parenting teenagers in the nineties. So I, I thought a lot about my mom and about my relationship with my mother in the making of the show. I mean, a lot. And so I think about that a lot, that idea of like, okay, let me start with me. And how can I make sure that I'm processing

my mother's unlived life in the right ways for myself so that I'm not passing that on to another generation. It's a generational trauma, I think. And I do think, I love both of your answers so much and I'm grateful for them because they, they, they helped me think about my own. I always say that my mom gave up way too much and everything and it cost her a lot. I gave up a lot less but had a lot like one like it's a practice for me too. And it's also about letting my kids be what they want to be. But I also think the one thing I hope Ellen can do better than I did is I went ahead and went for the big life, but still struggled a lot with the guilt of the choices I had to make. I had to miss

stuff. I had to be out of town during things. So I'm hoping maybe Ellen, maybe Ellen will do big life, less guilt, and maybe then, you know, a granddaughter somewhere down the line, you know, so I do think there's Hopefully the pendulum will swing toward the center. Yeah. question for y'all. One of my favorite characters, the one that I had a hard time loving, but I had some empathy for, but I would definitely position as a character, a main character was Shaker Heights. There's no question to me that that town was a character in the book, in the film, or in the series. And what was interesting for me is it made me think for the first time as a researcher, in fact, I've opened up this whole line of inquiry as a researcher since reading the book and seeing that. And it took the book, but it also took the series. It took the cinematic expression of the book for me to really get to this was I don't think we dig enough in when we're doing our own work around the character of place.

And so Nashville, the South, New York, the South Bronx. Tell me in a sentence or two what those characters, how those characters shaped you, just like we saw these characters shaped by Shaker Heights. How did the South of Nashville shape you, Reese? How did South Bronx shape you, Carrie? Oh my gosh. I mean, it's everything to me. It's so much, you know, and it's so on my mind all the time. Like growing up in Nashville, I had a really safe childhood. I had a really good education. I grew up mainly with my parents both worked a lot. So I spent a lot of time with my grandparents, like a lot.

And that was so formative for me. Two people also who grew up during the depression and through so much hardship, through many world wars, they just had a different worldview. They didn't have a lot of excess. They grew a lot of their own food in the backyard. They loved simple pleasures, reading, playing cards. So I grew up with a lot of that. And this quarantine has reminded me I have a lot of resources because of my grandma and grandpa. I just went right back to that. Oh, not that I'm a homesteader or whatever, but

planting in the yard is a half day activity. And the beauty of watching birds in the yard. I mean, this sounds so dumb, y'all, but I have bought a bird bath and fill that bird bath up every day and watch those birds. And it just, I see you on Instagram doing these things and I'm like, is she planting? Or yeah. So, so yeah. So those fingerprints are on your heart. For sure.

But also I will say, as it pertains to the little fires, the way we spoke about race in our primarily white community was with words like, well, we're colorblind. We don't, we don't judge people for the color of their skin. And, And we see everybody's the same. And now, I was actually able to incorporate a lot of that sensibility and that language that now I understand is completely toned up and doesn't recognize the individual in the way that has no respect or honors people from completely different backgrounds. And all sorts of things I heard growing up that I'm sure so many people heard growing up in the

South about sexuality. And no one ever explained to me what homosexuality was. No one ever explained. I had to figure it out when I was 15 and I started coming to Los Angeles for auditions. I didn't understand. And somebody said, oh, I'm gay. And I was like, what's that? You know? And I went back and one of my grandparents told me that's a very rare thing. We didn't tell you because it's rare. That's what her character says in the show. And my character says it in the show. We had to put it in. When I heard that story, I was like, come on. And they said, we didn't explain it because it doesn't happen very often. Very often. Rare.

Rare. And, you know, that's just not, but it was the language that you have, and you have to understand where, and I think I'm, you know, I'm grateful that my children watch the show because they get to see like, that's what we were told. Yeah, no, there wasn't the internet and you didn't have a great way to communicate and share ideas like we do now. It's true. Carrie, South Bronx, Shaping. Oh man. I mean, I always joke that I'm like the the twin sister of hip-hop because we were both born in 1977 in the Bronx and that's kind of how I feel like like that I that I come from this magical art form you know what this magical art form was born in a place where people didn't have instruments, right?

Like the funding for schools were cutting music lessons. So there weren't instruments in the home and a lot of homes didn't have electricity. So you plug your record player into the electricity that's flowing down the sidewalk and you turn your record player into an instrument by creating sounds and beats off of an electronic device. Now that's now called a DJ and everybody has one at their wedding, but that's an art form that was born out of not having, right? Like we didn't have- Out of need. Yeah. We didn't, we weren't being taught poetry, but we created poetry and rhythm and music and dance on cardboards on the sidewalk.

Like we learned how to spin like yogis on cardboards on the corner because we didn't have dance studios. And there's something to that, that resilience of being from a place where we can make magic out of nothing. You know, what is now a billion dollar industry and a music form that feels like it belongs to a global community. But it came from my neighborhood and people looking for joy and rhythm. And that even that experience of, you know, that housing, those housing projects. It was, it's just like, it's a tradition of making love and joy when resources are limited. And I, so I think I feel the same way, you know, that Reese does around in this time, feeling like we are resilient, you know, that, that, that Glennon phrase, you know, we can do hard

things. Like we can do hard things. Like you don't grow up in the Bronx and, and not know that you can do hard things because hard things are happening all around you. I was describing this game we used to play at my pool in my, in my neighborhood was four buildings. I didn't grow up in the projects. I grew across the street from the projects, so projects adjacent. And there was a pool in the middle of our four buildings. And we played this game called All Sharks Under, where I was the first girl in my neighborhood who was invited to play All Sharks Under because I'm such a good swimmer. But the point of the game was to get from one side of the pool to the other side of

the pool without coming up from air. And people would try to tackle you. I was describing this to my kid's swim teacher a couple of years ago. And she was like, that doesn't sound like a game. That sounds like child abuse. Like that sounds really dangerous. Like people could have died. And I was like, well, it was the Bronx. So like it was dangerous no matter what. So, you know, if we're going to be in the pool, we're going to play dangerously and we're going to be fierce and we're going to get to the other side. All right. Well, I have to say.

I love you, Terri. You're the greatest. Yeah. Like dangerous or not, in the water, outside the water, it's the Bronx. There's going to be sharks. Yeah, there's going to be sharks involved. We're not dolphins in the pool. It's not all dolphins under. It's all sharks under. And I love you so much. I'm buying a birdbath today. That's amazing.

Y'all, simple joy. Just simple joy. It made me, not what's the word I like, it made me flutter a little bit when you said that because my grandmother's favorite thing was to drink instant iced tea and smoke or cigarettes while watching her birdbath in San Antonio. Yeah. And so like, I wish I could have a cigarette because I would go out there and watch my birdbath as well. One last thing I want to say because I think it's really important. I'm a big fan of Austin Channing Brown's anti-racism work. And I kept thinking of this quote from her when I was watching the series. When you believe niceness disproves the presence of racism, it's easy to start believing bigotry is rare and that the label racist should only be applied to mean-spirited, intentional acts

of discrimination. Your politeness will not save you from the dehumanization white supremacy wreaks on yourself and the world. Niceness has yet to save us from the distortions of racism, and it won't. Niceness will never be enough. Wow, that's powerful. Yeah, and I just kept thinking like, I just kept thinking of Austin Channing Brown's quote, just the same. Okay, we're getting off right now. That's incredible.

Thank you for sharing that. And thank you for having this conversation with us about this whole week. Can I say, Renee, I do think, you know, when we talk about the themes in this show, it's great to watch it with kids that are the right age, because it does talk about, if you are not talking to your kids about racism, about class, about sexuality, they are talking to somebody about it. They're getting data somewhere. They're getting data somewhere because it brings up questions. It doesn't answer things for you, the show.

You turn off the show, and my husband was watching it separate from me because he goes, you come and go, what does this mean? Why are you so mean to her? Why is she so mean to you? It's an important process. So good, right? So good. I wish I had a video camera. I said to Reese, like, I needed to be filming Nnamdi watching this series. Like, he would jump off off the, no, no. Like, he was so, like, it was a football game. He was so in, so in. But also we would have to process it. We would have to talk about it. Oh, Ellen, I had to talk about it every time,

but like for a long time. Yeah. All right. I want to be respectful of your time. So this is my rapid fire 10 questions. I've never done it with two people. I'm going to switch back and forth because one of you will have a split second to prepare, and I know how you actors work. Okay. I know. Now I know the inside scoop. Okay. Number one, Reese, you go first.

Fill in the blank. Vulnerability is? Darren Grayley. Cheater. Okay. She's such a good student. She's such a kiss-ass good's such a kiss ass good student. Carrie, vulnerability is? Hard.

Number two, Carrie first, you're called to be brave, but your fear is real. It's stuck in your throat. What's the very first thing you do? Try to breathe. Reese. Acknowledge it. Reese first. Something that people often get wrong about you. That I'm organized. I'm not. I'm a mess. Oh, you're not? Mm-mm.

She is. Wow. Okay. I am. Carrie, what is something people often get wrong about you? That I'm serious all the time. Those are two good things. I would have thought both of those.

Okay, Carrie first. Last show that you binged and loved. Little Fires. Jesus, they're cheaters, y'all. I watched that in the edit room nonstop. Okay, last show that I binged and loved. I am binging the Michael Jordan doc, but I don't know that I'm loving it. I got to be honest. It's causing very conflicting

feelings in me. So binge and loved, I would say I'm late to The Outsider and really loving it. Okay. Reese. Outsider? The Outsider. The Outsider, yeah. Yeah, The Outsider? Outsider. The Outsider, yeah. Yeah, The Outsider. What did I love lately? Well, I watched the Michael Jordan thing as well. I think it's definitely bringing up a lot of feelings for me.

But let me see. I know I watched something recently. Also, Never Have I Ever. Oh, Never Have I Ever. I watched that. That is so funny. So good. It's really good. All praise to Mindy Kaling.

Mindy Kaling is so funny and great. Give me just one of your favorite movies, Reese. Favorite movie? I love Goldie Hawn movies. So I love Overboard. It just makes me laugh every time. Carrie? When Harry met Sally.

Okay. Carrie first, a concert you'll never forget. Best concert of my life was my, we were trying to figure out where to go on vacation, like just my husband and I a couple of years ago. And he looked at the schedule for the On the Run 2 tour. And in our window of vacation, they were going to be in Barcelona. And so we were like, I guess we're going to Barcelona because we were missing them in New York and missing them in L.A. So we went to Barcelona to see J.M. Bay and they were amazing. And it was like a perfect romantic whirlwind concert weekend in Barcelona. God, that sounds amazing, actually. Right? Okay, Reese,

a concert you'll never forget. I'm jealous of that. Oh, seeing Dolly Parton at the Hollywood Bowl. I can't, y'all. I can't. She plays every instrument. She plays like seven, ten instruments. She sings like an angel. She's so underestimated all the instruments.

Yeah. I mean, my favorite Dolly cover is like your Johnny Cash cover, which is, you never thought it could be beat? Stairway to Heaven, Dolly Parton. Oh, I've never heard that. Never heard it. Oh, it's haunting. You have to listen to it. Oh, I'm sure. Okay. It's amazing. All right. I think Reese first, favorite meal. Oh, I'd have to say probably something Southern, like fried chicken and biscuits. Mashed potatoes? Gravy?

Yeah. Fried okra. Oh, fried okra. Just like fried things. Oh, and banana cream pie. Okay. Low carb? Carrie?

I love Latin food. Growing up in the Bronx, I love Latin food. Like growing up in the Bronx, I love Caribbean food. So like, you know, arroz con pollo and pernil and just all that. Just so good. So y'all both want foods that take you back, take you home foods. Okay. Yeah, Caribbean food. What's on your nightstands?

Carrie first. Like book-wise? What's on your nightstands? Carrie first. Like book-wise? What's on my nightstand? Anything. Oh, I have my nighttime vitamins by my bed. I'm on a lot of vitamins right now. And I just finished Alicia Keys' book, More Myself. And I listened to some of it I listened to and some of it I read so I have it by my I mean

I'm I just she she wanted to send it to me because she name drops me in the book so she was like can I send you something to make you smile but it was at the beginning of COVID and I was like I am not accepting packages you're such a I'm such a dork it was like that it was like those first few days where I was like, I am sorry. I'm sure whatever you have will make me smile, but I cannot accept it into my heart at this moment. So then I emailed her a couple of days ago and I was like, were you going to send me that book? And she was like, yes.

It's so, it's such an important book. It's beautiful. And so I interviewed her for it, for the podcast. And it was a great conversation. I'm sure it was great. It was good. Okay. her for it, for the podcast, and it was a great conversation. I know I need to listen to your podcast. I'm sure it was great. It was good. Okay.

What's on your nightstand? 5,000 books, Reese Witherspoon? Yes. I'm actually rereading because I'm supposed to talk to some kids that aren't having a graduation next week. So I'm reading Marian Wright Edelman's book, The Measure of Our Success, again, because I read it when I was 19 and it really spoke to me. It's a letter to her sons on their 18th birthday and it's really, it's a great book.

And it's a good gift for a graduate, The Measure of Our Success. That is an amazing graduation idea. I never thought of it. Okay. You know, her son is Ezra Edelman who directed the OJ documentary. And when I didn't know that's amazing. Keep a good friend of ours. Okay. Reese, a snapshot of an ordinary moment that brings you joy in your life right now. Just an ordinary moment. The bird bath. Oh, covered. In there. Are you listening, Brene? Yes. I barely.

Carrie, these two are such shit starters. Don't even take that. Don't even take that sweet, like, hey, it's pretty. Something that's bringing me joy right now. The circle time with my kids. Like we do like a real kindergarten circle time in the morning where we have a little magnet board and we change the date and we talk about how everybody's feeling and, and just having that. Also, it helps me actually remember what the date is and what day of the week it is because I must teach it to them. So that's super helpful, but like we're picking up, I have a letter of the

day for my three-year-old and word of the day for my six-year-old and a word of the day for my six-year-old. I love it. That circle time in the morning is really, it feels like such a great ritual. All right. Last one. What's one thing you're both grateful for? Health. Health of my family.

Health, for sure. I would have to say, particularly now, obviously, health, a roof over my head, water to be able to wash my hands with soap and water. She said one thing, Keri. All right. And also you. I was going to say you, but now I take it back. There we go. I'm super grateful for Reese. When should be nice to me? All right. Closing with this quote from our friend Celeste Ng, rules existed for a reason. If you followed them, you'd succeed.

If you didn't, you might burn the world to the ground. I think Reese and Keri should continue burning the world to the ground. I love it. Amen. Every minute of it. You too, sister. You too. Well, we will.

From your mouth to God's ear. Amen. Y'all take good care of yourselves. All right. Thank you, Brene. Bye, Brene. God's here. Y'all take good care of yourselves. All right. Thank you, Renee. Such a great conversation with Carrie and Reese. I just, you know, you look at some people and you think, you know, never meet the stars,

celebrities. I've always kind of got the side eye on the celebrities. And then you talk to people like Reese and Carrie, who are just about as down to earth as anyone I've ever talked to or kind of met IRL in real life. If you want to go to the show page and figure out where to follow them, where to find them, you can do that. I can tell you a lot of it's pretty easy. Carrie on Twitter and Instagram is just Carrie Washington. Reese Witherspoon, her website is hello-sunshine.com. She also owns a clothing company, Draper James, and that's draperjames.com. And Twitter, she's Reese W.

And Instagram, she's Reese Witherspoon. And again, you can go to the show pages on BreneBrown.com and learn more about them, learn more about the show, learn more about Celeste Ng and her incredible book, Little Fires Everywhere. Y'all have a good one. Stay awkward, brave, and kind, friends. Unlocking Us is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group. The music is by Keri Rodriguez and Gina Chavez.

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