Unlocking Us with Brené Brown - Brené with Samin Nosrat on Grief, Gratitude, and Connection

Episode Date: April 14, 2021

Get ready for a delicious conversation. I am talking to Samin Nosrat, author, cook, teacher, podcaster, and the force of nature behind the revolutionary cookbook Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat and its Netflix documentary. We connect on her work and the struggles and realities of creating connections in a period of great disconnection. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, everyone. I'm Brene Brown, and this is Unlocking Us. In this episode, I am talking to Samin Nasrat, author, cook, teacher, podcaster, and the incredible force of nature behind what I think is probably the most revolutionary cookbook I've ever come across, Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat. She also stars in her own Netflix documentary by the same name, and is just one of the most incredible shows I've ever watched. We watched as a family. It was so much fun, and we learned a lot. We're talking about her work, and we're also talking about struggle and the reality of getting through this pandemic. What happens when you are someone who is passionate about connection and feeding people and gathering and we're in a period of great disconnection. It's a really honest and vulnerable and intimate conversation about life

and about the importance of understanding that we are made up of many, many pieces. And it's our whole self that we need to understand and see as beautiful. It's an incredible conversation. Support for this show comes from Macy's. Fall is in full swing, and it's the perfect time to refresh your home and wardrobe for the sweater weather with new finds from Macy's. From October 9th to October 16th, get amazing deals on shoes and boots on sale at 30 to 40 percent off. And you can shop new styles during the Macy's Fab Fall Sale from October 9th to October 14th. Shop oversized knits, warm jackets, and trendy charm necklaces, and get 25 to 60% off on top brands when you do.

Plus, get great deals on cozy home accessories from October 18th to October 27th. Shop in-store or online at macys.com. About a year ago, two twin brothers in Wisconsin discovered, kind of by accident, that mini golf might be the perfect spectator sport for the TikTok era. Meanwhile, a YouTuber in Brooklyn found himself less interested in tech YouTube and more interested in making coffee. This month on The Verge Cast, we're telling stories about these people who tried to find

new ways to make content, new ways to build businesses around that content, and new ways to make content about those businesses. Our series is called How to Make It in the Future, and it's all this month on The Verge Cast, wherever you get podcasts. So before we get started, if you don't know Samin Nasrat's work, let me tell you about her. She is just a badass. She is a chef, a teacher, an author of a best-selling James Beard award-winning cookbook called Salt, Fat,

Acid, Heat. She has been called a go-to resource for matching the correct techniques and the best ingredients by the New York Times. And in PRs, All Things Considered called her the next Julia Child. Samin is an EAT columnist for the New York Times Magazine, and she can be found eating, cooking, laughing, and teaching in her Netflix documentary, Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat. Welcome, Samin. So we have to start here. I want to know your story. And I want to know your story from the beginning, from baby Samin. Wow, thank you for asking. Thank you. That's amazing. People are always like, did you always want to cook? But it starts so much, you know, I was a baby first. So my parents are from Iran. And they came to California to San Diego in the mid 70s.

And a big part of my story is that I think it's true about a lot of immigrant kids is there are a lot of holes and there's a lot of secrets in my family. I don't know the full history of my family. I don't know the full story still. So I don't actually even know exactly why my parents came and I don't know the full story still. So I don't actually even know exactly when my parents came. And I don't know the full story of exactly why they came. I do know there was some religious persecution on my dad's side. My dad's side of the family is Baha'i. But my parents came and I had an older sister at that time. I wasn't born yet. And I was born in 1979 in San Diego. And when I was one,

my sister died. She had a kind of a terminal brain cancer that kids don't survive. And so I think the move, the huge, the immigration and the loss of a kid really set the tone for my childhood and our family life in a lot of ways. In a way that I don't know that I had an understanding of or context of until many, many years later when I got to go to therapy, but there was definitely a lot of heaviness and grief and sadness that was not particularly resolved in our family. So that's kind of where I come from. And also I come from an amazing, very rich culture, a beautiful, beautiful culture that my mom really wanted me and my two younger brothers to be familiar with and love and fully understand. She worked really hard to fill our house with the senses and the flavors of our culture. And my aunts and my uncles, as they also came to the States, they were always coming in and out of our house. And we celebrated Persian New Year, which is our big holiday. And so our house was full of family. And there was a lot of like,

I was trying to fit in in Southern California and also be part of my family. And so it didn't always happen. But also, I just was trying to be my best Samin self. Yeah. Tell me about elementary school, Samin. I definitely wanted to get the best grades. I wanted to be, yeah, I wanted to be the best for the teacher. Like I was always the kid, raising my hand for sure, like at the front of the classroom. I grew up in suburban San Diego. And it's funny too, because sometimes I'm like, am I over-narrativizing this? Sometimes I'm like, sitting here where I sit now, have I created a story that I didn't fit in? But now that I go back and look at pictures of my elementary school birthday parties, I definitely

didn't fit in. I'm the only kid with the thick brown eyebrows and the curly brown hair and everybody else had fair skin and blonde hair and light brown hair. And I so desperately like, begged my mom to be a brownie, a Girl Scout. And she did. And my mom, oh, man, she was so good. She signed me up for everything that I wanted to sign up for. And also, she never wanted me to be too American. She didn't want me or my brothers to lose our culture. And so, all I wanted was a cake mix cake. I just wanted a Betty Crocker cake, you know? And like, that was not what we were going to have. And so I was being pulled in all the directions. I wanted so badly to fit in and also never at the cost of my own culture. I never really wanted to hide who I was. It was just,

I just so badly wanted to fit in. I was so painfully aware of being different. I was so, so, so, so incredibly aware of that. And so my response became, oh, well, then in that case, the only way that I can prove myself is by being the smartest, the smartest, the smartest. I have to be the best possible student I can be. Same experience in high school as well? Something kind of remarkable and amazing happened for me. I still don't understand looking back what possessed me. But when I was in middle school, the middle school I went to was across the street from the high school. And so at some point, I don't know, the sports coaches came to the middle school to recruit incoming freshmen. And I was never athletic. In fact,

I was born with all these weird misalignments in my body. And I've definitely never enjoyed running, never. And yet something possessed me, I don't know what, to cross the gym and go over to the cross-country team, to the cross-country coach recruiting situation. And I joined the cross-country team, which saved me in every way. I became part of a group of girls and we had this incredible coach who later became my English teacher, who was the English teacher who changed my life and who I'm still in touch with. The cross-country team, people, kids who run are weird. It was a group of weirdos who were misfits. And it was a group of weirdos who I fit in with. And I was still never a very good or fast runner, but I loved it so much. I loved being part of this strange thing that I

felt like I could commit myself fully to socially. And that wasn't just school, that wasn't just my studies. And that I think in a huge way saved me. And having a coach who cared about us, who really for me, and I think for a lot of us who weren't white, gave us a love of the outdoors. He took us trail running and he took us camping. And I got to know so much of California because of our road trips. It was an incredible, incredible experience. And that changed me and taught me to be ambitious in kind of another way. Yeah. And to ask for more, I think, socially for myself. I had so much fun and I don't think I had ever had fun in that way before. Yeah. And I felt part of something. I don't know what possessed me to cross that gym in eighth

grade, but I'm so glad I did. Yeah. I keep thinking a lot of us walk across that gym, but nobody but you ends up at the cross-country table. I just gotta say, that's a hardcore table. I mean, that's not like run a lap. That's like run through the woods for miles. That's the hardcore table. Yeah. In that summer, between eighth grade and ninth grade, my mom and my brothers and I went to

Iran for the first time. And part of the assignment of preparing to be on the cross country team our season in Southern California is the fall was to get in shape by running a few miles a day over the summer. And this is somebody who like literally couldn't run a lap around. I don't you know, like I I, I don't, I really don't know why this, I chose, I made this decision. And so I was like, okay, I guess I'm going to start doing this. And so I started running and trying to do other cardio. And I remember one day I was riding my bike with my little brother and we were riding bikes to go to the public library. I loved going to the library. And you

know how in California it's legal when you're driving to make a right turn on red after you come to a stop. And so, my brother and I were on our bikes and a car didn't see us and he turned right into me. A car hit me on my bike. And so, then like the ambulance came and it wasn't that bad. Like we weren't moving. It wasn't that bad. I just kind of got knocked over, but it was bad enough. I think an ambulance came and took me back home. I was in a little bit of shock, but I was 14 years old. I wasn't in Iran. Sorry, the Iran trip was the next year. It was just the preparation year and I was trying to get into shape for my first year of cross country. And so I just was like, maybe this is a sign that I shouldn't do cross country. And I still did it. You know what I mean? Like I just was like, maybe this is a sign that I shouldn't do cross country. And I still did it. You know what I mean?

I still was like, and I still showed up and I still did it. And then the next summer was the year that we went to Iran. And again, they were like, make sure you run every day. And this is the first time I go to Iran. I have to wear covering, which is super stressful to me as now a 15-year-old. And my mom took me to Marshalls. And I remember I got a London fog raincoat and I got headscarves, which was this whole thing where I was like, I'm going to be so hot all summer wearing these things. And I was like, how am I going to run? And I really couldn't run in Tehran. It wasn't possible.

But in the countryside where my grandparents lived, they had a huge citrus orchard. And so I would try and go running on the citrus orchard, which was its own really challenging thing, because then I was supposed to be modest in front of the farm workers. And it wasn't really considered modest to go running in your running tights or whatever. And I was like, I'm going to still do it. And it was still this clash of the cultures. And I still did it. I still pushed and somehow managed to show up and do through citrus. She's going, she's going. It's like a, yeah, it's chariots of fire. I know, totally. So tell me about this coach slash English teacher that really changed things for you, it sounds like. A real sliding door moment, I guess. Yeah, I had always measured my value by my achievements. And

my greatest achievements had always been academic. And even though like I was a pretty good student, I switched to a far better school for middle school. And I was never the very best. I was all of a sudden amongst way smarter kids. And I was really stressed out. I just wasn't as smart as them. And I didn't have the tools to figure out how to be as good as them. But I was kind of sneaky. And so I started doing these like kind of sneaky things. Like in ninth grade, I did this thing where I went to the vice principal and I told the vice principal that the teacher of the super duper advanced level English class had told me that I could be in her class. And then I went to the teacher of the super duper advanced level class

and told me that the vice principal said I could be in the class. And then I got into the class. Like, I mean, it was just, I was like, and then after that, I was suddenly in that track, which didn't end up actually being the best place for me to be. I mean, I am still friends with a lot of the kids who are in those classes. But after 10th grade, I realized I was unhappy there. I was unhappy amongst those kids who were the super duper, the smartest. And so I defaulted and I came back down a level, which for me as a kid who was like, I have to go to the best of the best schools, I have to do the best of the best. This is the only way like I can possibly measure my achievement

and my value was a really huge deal because Coach Dorman, our cross country coach didn't teach in that program. He taught in the regular like advanced program. And by then I had sort of been around him and other kids who had been his students enough to understand and see things that mattered to them. And what mattered to them was beauty and poetry and lyricism and happiness and sensory joy and reading beautiful books and narrative. And I was like, I want to be inspired like that. Because that was not what I was feeling in my classes. Right. So I did this really scary thing and I dropped out of the fanciest stuff. And I dropped down so that I could be in his class. And that, again, was one of the best things I've ever done.

And he read us poetry every day. And he made us keep journals. And he told me I could write. And he encouraged me to write. And until then, I had always told myself and thought that I would, because my parents had come here for a better life for their children, like, I just assumed I would be a doctor or a lawyer. Like, I didn't know what I would be, but I just assumed I would be one of the sort of approved jobs of Iranian children, doctor, lawyer, engineer. And all of a sudden I was like, wow, I could maybe do something that makes my heart sing. And so at that point I was like, I want to be a writer. I want to be an English major. And he encouraged us.

Yeah. When you describe what those classes were, right, it was beauty and poetry and sensory delight and nature. That so describes how I think of you today. for the influence he had on me. I'm so grateful to still have a relationship with him. And it has taught me and shown me how important that kind of support in a young person's life is. And also, I know that families and parents, for the most part, are trying. And sometimes you can't get everything from your own family and your parents. And so to be able to look outside of your own family and get that, I've always been looking outside. I've always been. So I've been starving. I've been starving. I've always been starving. And there's just been a series of people where I'm always like, can you feed me? And he was the first for sure. And I'm so grateful he was there with a spoon and a bowl. Yeah. So do you feel any irony when you think

about I was always starving, I was always starving, can you feed me? And then you feed us with so much joy and so much beauty. And that's what you do for us. I have so much conflict and sadness in my heart about all this stuff. I mean, I go to so much therapy now and sometimes I feel like a huge fraud. I remember at one point when I realized that so much of what I make and put in the world originates from a place of pain and sadness and is a response to pain and sadness. And that was a really difficult and sad realization for me. It still is. I mean, it's like there's tears in my eyes now. It's just a really hard thing to come to terms with. There's just been a lot of grief in my life. And the flip side of that, where I

decide to sort of sit with it is that it's a choice. It's a conscious choice for me to make something beautiful and joyful for people out of that, right? Like, I could be putting grief and sadness out, or my response could be this. And what I've noticed is that unconsciously, I'm really drawn to people who create beautiful things out of grief and pain. Like, often I don't know that about their backstory, but as I get to know people, I realize that resilience is often a part of people's stories who I'm drawn to. There's a quote that I think of when I think about you, and I'm obsessed with you. And I've seen your Netflix special 15 times.

I've gifted your book to everybody I know. And I didn't know really anything about the grief and hard part. But I'll tell you, I assumed it, and I'll tell you why. The quote is from Elizabeth Kubler-Ross and the quote says that stained glass windows are beautiful, but they're especially beautiful during darkness when they're lit from within. And you seem to me to be a person who is very lit from within. And I'm curious about that light. I'm curious about that light that you shine. Thank you. Wow. I mean, I don't even know how to respond to that. I mean, honestly, also, like, most of the time, I feel like a huge fraud.

Like I really do. I don't I wait still still. Oh, yeah, totally. Like I really do. I don't. Wait, still? Still? Oh yeah, totally. Like I'm also like, what do people even see in me? I don't know. I made one show. I wrote one book. Like, what's the big deal? How many times can a person walk around saying, it's all fat ass and eat? You know, there's been so many wonderful things that have come for me as a result of the success and the attention. And also, it's hard. It's really hard. And luckily, again, I don't know where I would be without therapy. I'm so glad.

I've been going to therapy now for about 10 years. And it's life-saving. And luckily I had the foresight to address a lot of this stuff and like be prepared for some of these things. I don't know that I assumed or like planned for any level of this kind of level of attention. I mean, I think you'd have to be like a sociopath or something to like assume any of this would happen. But even before my book, or like a narcissistic maniac or something, but before my book came out, I'd worked on my book and been thinking about it for a lot of years. And as I said, my whole life, all of my sort of self-worth has been tied up in my achievements. And I've spent a lot of time in therapy trying

to untangle my self-worth from my achievements. And probably've spent a lot of time in therapy trying to untangle my self-worth from my achievements. And probably I'll spend the rest of my life trying to do that. And at least now I'm aware of that, but that doesn't mean I've fully been able to undo that. That's a big one for all of us, I think, that separation. Yeah. And so like my therapist, I said, you know, I'm really worried about this book coming out and I don't want to ride the waves, whether they're positive or negative. I don't want to ride every single wave of feedback. I don't want to read every review or critical feedback and go up and down and up and down. Like I won't be able to survive that. My therapist was like, well, what should we do? And I was like, you tell

me, how do I, what do I, how do I prepare for this? He said, I think what you need to do is come up with your own definition for success and preempt all of that with your own definition for success so that you can measure success by that instead of some outside thing. And so I did. For me, that meant knowing that I put that book out, having done everything that I could and given everything that I could to make it as good as I possibly could have. And not that it would be mistake free. And it wasn't mistake free. I mean, on the first day of publication, we realized there were some mistakes everything I could and mistakes are fine and it didn't crush me. And I survived. And we fixed them. And it's okay. And I did do everything I could.

I literally did every single thing that I could. And I don't read reviews. I don't read comments. I don't read articles. I have to protect myself in some ways. And that's been a big thing. So that's helped a lot for sure. And also just like trying really hard to just invest in the relationships and friendships in my life that

were important before and continue to be important. Hello, I'm Esther Perel, psychotherapist and host of the podcast, Where Should We Begin, which delves into the multiple layers of relationships, mostly romantic. But in this special series, I focus on our relationships with our colleagues, business partners, and managers. Listen in as I talk to co-workers facing their own challenges with one another and get the real work done. Tune into How's Work, a special series from Where Should We Begin, sponsored by Klaviyo. What software do you use at work?

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Check it out wherever you get your podcasts. I struggle with a lot of the same things you're talking about struggling with still today. There's still some days I wake up and I'm like, oh man, today's the day the gig is up. People are going to figure out that this is what's behind it all and they're going to be, shit man. I think part of what's hard when I think about your work is you look at the way people talk about you, especially in the culinary world, which I make up. Some of it's a kind of hoity-toity criticism-based world.

Sometimes I make that up. But it's not the separating you and me from what we do and our self-worth being about who we are, not what we have produced, gets tricky when people have fallen in love with you. We have fallen in love with you. And it's not just what you've written and taught us, it's who you are. And there's such power and loveliness in that, but it also can be a Faustian bargain, right? Because people need you to be something. Yeah, yeah. I think it didn't really hit me until it was too late that I was giving up what I was giving up and that I had given up certainly my anonymity.

Say more. I have to be so aware, like I don't really get to be the grumpy person in my pajamas at the coffee. I mean, not that I go out to coffee shops right now, but like I think people think I'm just the one version of me that's edited and put out on a podcast or on a TV show. And the thing is, is I'm not an actor like that's really truly me. What you see on the TV show really is truly me. But it's just one part of me. I'm also kind of a huge bitch. Like I'm really judgmental, most of all toward myself. I'm an incredibly critical person. You know, I'm not pure niceness and joy. There are a lot of difficult things in all of us. And so I definitely feel like I'm a character now. And a lot of it is stuff I did to myself. You know, I set out with that book saying to myself, oh, the thing I want to do in this book is be your kitchen friend.

And now I've done that. Now I'm everyone's kitchen friend and I can't undo that. And that's really wonderful. And also I get creepy mail at my house that I didn't expect, you know? So yeah, I'm like, okay, that's kind of weird. My sister's in this room with me right now and I'm looking at her because, you know, it's funny, Samin, because when I inevitably piss people off on social media, because especially around my politics,

I'll take a stand on something. And what I get is not, I disagree with you. It's, you've broken my heart. I'm so disappointed in you. You're not held to the same standard as anyone else. I can't be your poster person for wholeheartedness because I'm a hard person sometimes. And I get pissed off. And I get mad.

And I am scary when I'm scared sometimes. And I'm shitty. And I so deeply feel kind of this strange form of dehumanization when people need you to be happy and perfect and joyful and their cure for melancholy all the time. Yeah. It's a big part of why I'm so open about being depressed. I talk about it all the time. I talk about taking antidepressants all the time. I'm like, this is also part of that person. Being grumpy is a part of that person. Like that's just one part of me. And I'm trying my hardest to figure it out. And I don't know, it's a wild world. It's a real wild world. I don't know. I don't know. I will say I'm really appreciating this

conversation. I will. No, I mean, so thank you. Thank you for like making this space. Me too, because it's real. And a part of my work with my therapist has always been about integration. There cannot be 20 Bernays. There's got to be one Bernay. And she's a whole person. And she's made up of a lot of parts and I have to find beauty in all those parts. And that's a little bit more challenging, I think, when you're public because all those parts are under scrutiny and people need you to be different things. But it's funny because when I read your work and when I watch you, even when I watch the Netflix special, there's a wholeness about you. There's a wholeness and an empathy about you that conveys to me that you've known

struggle. And to me, that's a beautiful thing. There's a wholeness about you that's very real to me that I just want to say I appreciate. Thank you. Do you ever get tired of cooking or is it always a refuge for you? Is it always pure delight? Well, so I think the thing to be clear about is there's like two kinds of cooking in my life. There's the work cooking and then there's the home cooking. And for me, just like everybody else, I've been doing home cooking throughout the pandemic. And I live by myself, which is really lonely and really depressing. I mean, depressing in this during this time where I don't really have

any social interaction. And pretty boring. And I would say culinarily, it's not very exciting. I eat a lot of toast with peanut butter or an egg. And also very early in my career, I have always been a person who throws myself into something once I'm interested in it. So as a young cook, I really wanted to learn everything I could about cooking. I got all the books, I learned everything I possibly could. I wanted to travel and learn and eat in all the restaurants. And I really got super nerdy about all the terms and skills and techniques. But I would say by like year six, seven or eight, it stopped being about

all of the stuff we were talking about where you said, like all the hoity-toityness. I just didn't care about that anymore. I think I realized what I cared about was people and their stories. I cared about the people who were growing my food, about the people who were cooking my food, about the people I was cooking for and eating with and sharing my meals with. And now this pandemic has taken that away from me. I don't have people to really to share my meals with or to cook for. And without that, I'm really left without a purpose to cook, really. It's not that exciting, pretty boring. So this has been a pretty boring and uninspiring and challenging year for me, food-wise. I have not had much of an appetite,

and I haven't really found a lot of inspiration in cooking. Except for, I will say right now, I'm three times this year, I've made a trip to this one friend's home and I'm here now and it's the only time I've been under a roof with some other people and all three times here like it all comes back and I do a big grocery shop before I come I just cook my heart out and it's just being around other people it's so exciting for me and I just am so excited to cook I'm always like oh did I forget how to cook and I'm like oh no it's just being around other people. It's so exciting for me. And I just am so excited to cook. I'm always like, oh, did I forget how to cook? And I'm like, oh, no, it's just I needed some other people to be around. But also, I think being around other cooks is incredibly inspiring. And without that community, I feel really lonely. And so, yeah, without other people to talk to

and say, oh, what are you doing? What's inspiring you? How are you doing these things? Where are you learning things from? What tastes good to you? It's pretty lonely. So yeah, I'm just like washing the same dishes, you know, eating the same rice as everybody else. Yeah. And it's boring. It sucks. Like the rest of us. Yeah. It's so funny because you've maintained this. I mean, even in your show, in your book, that cooking is ultimately about connection and we've just, we're surviving a year of

massive disconnection. I mean, that's hard. It's really sad. And there are tiny ways I've tried to get some connection in my life. And there are tiny ways on a day-to-day basis I can maintain that. I do live in like a little community and even just on my street. We'll have like outdoor potluck if weather allows or whatever, but it's just so much more effort. It's just hard. It is really hard. Tell me what you're looking forward to the most post pandemic. Hugging people. I just miss people. I just miss hugs. I miss companionship and friendship. I really miss like not even so much the time. I mean, I've been going for hikes with friends or like seeing friends sort of when it's possible sort of outdoors for a tea or something. So it's not that I haven't

seen anyone, but I miss the kind of time that you have with people where you're not doing anything, where you're just sitting under a roof and you're both like reading a magazine where it's not like planned, where you're just doing nothing. Oh, yes. That's the best. Oh, yeah. That's where connection is so frequent, you can almost take it for granted and you can just be together. But that's the best. Okay. I'm going to ask you some questions from our rapid fire.

Are you ready for those? Okay. Yeah. Fill in the blank for me. Vulnerability is, I wish y'all could see her. She's got a serious thinking face on. Intimacy. Okay.

You, Samin, are called to be very brave, but your fear is real and you can feel it right in your throat. What's the very first thing that you do? Jump. Straight up? No, like what I'm imagining in this scenario is that i'm standing at the edge of a lake i'm imagining like just jump i'm like you know this is metaphorical jump like just jump just close my eyes and jump jump into the water just take Yeah, leap. I'm the one that like closes my eyes and leaps. Like

I have to be the, yeah, I'm the leaper. That's the mean crossing the gym floor right to the cross country table. Yeah. Yeah. Do the thing you're like, why would I do that thing? Yeah. Okay. What is something that people often get wrong about you? Oh, everyone thinks I'm the nicest person. I'm still laughing. I'm truly laughing. I'm truly laughing. Okay, that's funny. Okay.

The last TV show that you binged and loved. Ooh. Well, oh, this one. Oh, I'm so excited for this answer. This one's a little – you can tell me if I have to redo it because it's a tiny this podcast airs for Netflix and I'm going to be in an episode. So I just got to like they sent me it and I got to watch it. And it's just like, it's so full of joy. It's so full of magic. It's just, I have to say, in this time that is so devoid of joy and magic, it has filled my heart with so much hope. Honestly, I've cried like 400 times watching it.

I've laughed. It's so funny in this way where you're just like imagining children laughing and adults laughing. And it's just so silly. And for me as a person who got to be involved in it, I got to help with a little bit of the brainstorming and I got to be in it. It's literally the only project that I've ever been involved in where inclusivity and diversity were values that were paramount and just woven in from the ground up, from the top down, from day one. And so they were not things that anybody had to fight for along the way. And so because of that, they were not burdens. And so there was just room for magic. And that's so visible. And watching the the show i'm just sitting here crying because there's just children who are going to see themselves represented and their food from

their country that they've been made fun of you know like that i got made fun of as a kid for eating or friends of mine got made fun of for their kimchi or for their other stinky foods or whatever like now i'm just imagining a generation of kids who are just going to be celebrated and friends of mine got made fun of for their kimchi or for their other stinky foods or whatever. Like now I'm just imagining a generation of kids who are just going to be celebrated and loved and understood. I don't know. I'm like, sorry, this isn't turned into an ad for waffles and mochi, but it is just the best show. You can do it. You're going to fully cut that if you want. No, we're not cutting anything. I can't wait to see it. I love that. It's honestly, it's like meant for three-year-olds, but I feel like everyone should watch it.

I can't wait. I love it. And I'm probably going to love anything that Michelle Obama does. So I'm in. All right. This is a really hard one. One of your very favorite movies? Ooh, um, ooh. This is one of those ones where like, I'm on the spot, so I'm going to not remember the really good one. I think because I'm like in that Waffles and Mochi place, I'm going to say The Science of Sleep. Do you know that movie? No. I'm so curious because I wrestle with sleep. It's part of my... It's not about that at all. Oh, it's not? I was like, she's going to be the first person that gives us a documentary. Damn. No, no, no, no. It's by the director, Michelle Gondry. And it has... Who's that wonderful actor who's so beautiful, who I love so much? Oh, Gael Garcia Bernal. Yes, he's in it. Oh, my God. Oh, God.

I love it so much because I remember when I watched it, I was like, this movie is an arts and crafts extravaganza. It is just one of the most imaginative, wonderful, weird, special. I think the thing I love is whenever I see something that kind of explodes my brain about the art form a little bit. Like when the first time I read A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius, and that was the first memoir I read where I was like, this book is breaking the fourth wall. I didn't even know what a fourth wall was, but I was like, something is happening here that's really weird and wonderful. And I was like, that's what I want to do one day if I ever write a book. And I was like, I want to break whatever form I do.

And I feel like The Science of Sleep kind of is just like this weird and wonderful, it plays with whatever is supposed to be, and also just has so many arts and crafts in it. It must have been so fun to work on that movie. Oh, I can't wait. I love anything that challenges norms. So I can't wait to see that. Okay, a concert that you'll never forget. Oh, I have not been to a ton of concerts in my life. But one time. And I've only ever had like one relationship, one real like sort of like love when it was when I was in college. But we did go to

see Jimmy Cliff at a casino in Reno, Nevada, which was just like we happened upon Jimmy Cliff. And I was so excited because like I didn't grow up knowing a ton about music and certainly not reggae or pop music because my mom really was the controller of the radio in the house and in the car. And so she only really ever played classical Persian music or like Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald and like Roberta Flack. So I was always made fun of in high school because I never knew anything cool i never knew what was happening and so i kind of learned music as people made me mixtapes and so my boyfriend had made me a mixtape i think there was jimmy cliff on it so i was like when we saw this

jimmy cliff con like a casino in reno nevada or wherever it was like tahoe i was so excited and i was like oh my god like I'll know a song that Jimmy Cliff is going to play. And you know, he was probably like in his 80s. Wait, I have to ask, was this Johnny? Yes. Yeah, Johnny. Johnny the poet who took you on the culinary exploration. Of course, it was Johnny that took you to Reno for a concert. Okay. This is going to be a hard one because I ask everyone this, but your favorite meal.

Oh, that's a good one. Do you mean like the setting and the like, or the meal itself? Like the time, the people and the setting and the memory or the food? No, just your food, like your favorite meal to eat, your favorite meal. Oh, the favorite meal. Oh, God, this is a hard one. But whenever people are like, if you could only eat one thing, I think my favorite meal is tacos. And the reason is because first of all, I grew up in San Diego. I'm half Mexican in my heart and and and also because I love anything that is like a vehicle for many sauces and flavors and so I feel like I could have so many experiences and so many different flavors and so many different bites if it's just a dinner of like tacos and I can have all the different

salsas, I can have a little bit of slaw here, some beans on this one. I can have jalapeno pickle on this one, like a full Mexican extravaganza. I'm going to make you an honorary Texan. Oh, I would love that. And also I feel like I've heard about the Austin breakfast taco, which I have yet to experience, but I need to. Oh, my God. This is a standing invitation for you to come to my house in Austin and we'll just do a taco truck tour for breakfast. Oh, my God. I would love that. Oh, my God. We'll hit them all. Okay. This is a weird question. What's on your nightstand? Oh, let's see. I have Egyptian magic, the like bomb, because I'm always like rubbing it all over my face and my hands. I have my antidepressants. Oh, I have my little brush for

brushing my dog. I have like 1,000 million books, of which I've probably read one. Oh, I have Z-Quill, which is my preferred sleeping pill. And I don't know. I mean, oh, and water. That's a full nightstand. Yeah. I have to ask you these questions. These are add-ons just for you, because I'll get in trouble if I don't. Are you ready? Ready. The number one Googled

food question. Do you know what it is? What should I make for dinner? No, I have no idea. How do you boil an egg? Really? That makes me so sad. Yeah. What's the answer? How do you boil an egg? That's funny because I just asked you that. Well, there's a lot of, there's endless ways. I think the answer is like depends on what your desired result is. The way I do it is I bring the water to a boil, gently lower the egg in, and then depending on what kind of yolk I'm after, I'll pull it out anywhere from like, let's say, six and a half to nine and a half minutes out and then stick it in some ice water and then peel it and eat it. Perfect. Second question. This is for me and my sisters. We wear a nuclear suit when handling raw chicken. Is that necessary? Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay.

How necessary is that? Seriously? Well, where do you get your chicken? What's your chicken's provenance? Wow. The grocery store. I don't know if it's like the farmer's market might be a different answer. Do you know what I mean? Like, um. No, no, no. Yeah. Nothing fancy. Like the grocery store. Okay. Okay. Okay. I don't think you need to wear like a nuclear suit. I do think you should probably not splashing chicken water everywhere. Okay. I think I read somewhere once that when people wash the chicken, rinse it off, they end up getting more chicken germs all over their kitchen than when they don't.

I don't think washing a chicken does anything. I've heard that. Got it. What I do is usually if I get a chicken that's wrapped in plastic, just at the grocery store, if I get a chicken that comes in that super tight plastic, I'll open it in the sink so that whatever bloody water's in there can just come out in the sink, and then I'll put it on the tray and move it onto the counter that way. That's very helpful. I don't use gloves. I like to touch the food because I feel like if I wear gloves, I'm less sensitive to germs. And then that way, if I have dirty hands,

I'm more likely to touch something else and then make that thing dirty too. Do you ever cry when everything isn't ready at the same time? Or is that just the rest of us? I don't cry. I get really stressed and like kind of get passive aggressive or just aggressive aggressive at people. This is why we love you. Remember how I just said like I was so excited to be around people we were here and we had a zoom dance class for my friend's birthday scheduled and so we had to have dinner at six so we could have the zoom dance class at seven but i was not on time and so i was running behind and i was like, everybody sit down. I was like, you know, and we're trying to have like a joyous birthday dinner.

And I'm like, sit down. I'm like, start eating. I'm like, this is supposed to be a nice dinner. Yeah, sit your joyous ass down and get ready to eat because, yeah, I love it. I love it. I love it. I love the real. Have a good time. All right.

Two more questions. Yeah. Like, joy, people. I will say there are things you can do to help yourself. Usually involve, like, preparation, some thought before you even begin. But, like, we'll get there eventually. Okay. Tell me one thing. I'm just

going to stay passive aggressive. I'm just going to go with that. I mean, I think that's easier than changing my prep routine. Yeah, I have to say, though, I really do feel bad sometimes when I'm trying to do a family dinner. And you can see everyone just seizing up like, oh, man, she's in the kitchen, this shit better work out out just like she planned it or, you know, but whatever. I'm trying. Tell me one thing you're deeply grateful for right now. Oh, you know, I'm so grateful for my little pup, man. This relationship with this dog has saved me throughout this pandemic. What's your dog's name? Fava Bean.

She's such a little rascal, but man, little dog. I mean, I never really understood the dog thing, but I'm so glad I have one now. And yeah, my buddy. She's my buddy. She's a buddy. Yeah. I wasn't a dog person my whole life. And then we got a dog because the kids wanted one.

And now I'm like obsessed. You gave us five songs that you would not want to live without. Let me tell you what they are. Louis Armstrong, What a Wonderful World. Bill Evans, Waltz for Debbie, Take Two. Van Morrison, Into the Mystic. Nina Simone, Suzanne. And Stevie Wonder, Don't You Worry About a Thing.

In one sentence, tell us what this mini mixtape says about you. Each song is a portal to a place and a time and a person that I've spent that time with that I don't want to forget. That's beautiful. Okay, tell us what's happening next. You've got a podcast. Are you working on a new book? Yes, I'm miserably working on a new book. Yeah. Tell me about the new book. Can you tell us a little bit about it and when we can expect it? Sure. I mean, I'm just in the sort of like early painful stages of that. Oh, by the way,

Wendy McNaughton, my book partner says hello. I love her. Yes, she's so delightful and wonderful. It's called What to Cook. And the idea is hopefully it will resolve some of the problems we just referred to of like that stress of like, everything's not ready at the same time. for home cooks, how professional cooks understand and think about how to cook, then what to cook will hopefully demystify for home cooks, how professional cooks really navigate any cooking situation to really make the decisions about what is the right thing or the best thing to cook in any given scenario. And there are basically four constraints that we can use to make that decision. And those are time, ingredients, resources, and preferences. And I think a lot of people think that cooking is this like mystical

art, like black magic, where a chef sort of like has creativity strike. And, you know, you just know which ingredients to combine, and how to come up with a menu. But it's not that at all. I mean, maybe there's a little bit of that. But really, it's knowing how to take stock of what's around and how much time you have and what skills and appliances and space and who's coming to dinner and what you're feeling like and what they're feeling like and understanding like which one of those elements should anchor your cooking and then how to work around that. And so I'm going to teach you how to use that thinking and make those decisions.

God, that's good. Yeah. And actually, I'm entering your world. I'm tiptoeing into the world of social science a little bit and in doing the research for just figuring out how home cooks make the decisions right now, because I have not had like a typical cook's life coming from my mom's kitchen into a college kitchen, college dorm, and then a fancy restaurant, and then just sort of cooking for myself. So I want to understand how my typical audience, my typical reader makes the decisions of what to cook so I can better answer their questions. And like one example is for Thanksgiving, most people, their kind of like constraint often is that almost

every dish at a typical Thanksgiving needs to spend some time in the oven. And so the oven is usually the main constraint, oven space. And yet still people don't tweak their menu and they end up writing these oven heavy menus or like baked sweet potatoes, two kinds of pie, the turkey, you know, everything. And I'm like, okay, well, let's take a step back. And maybe if we tweak our menu and change a few things and have some things served at room temperature, or make some things that we can sort of cook earlier in the day and then reheat, we can remove some stress from ourselves and think in a better way. And that way, you understand that your

constraint is your oven space and build your menu around that. Or a lot of people these days are eating more like vegetable heavy or vegetarian friendly. So how would you build your average menu around vegetables? I think most people before the pandemic, their typical constraint would have been time. But now a lot of people getting ingredients, or like what you have on hand is your main constraint. And so just writing toward that I'm doing a lot of like surveying and gathering data. And whoo, baby, it's it's an interesting. Yeah, no, it's an interesting thing entering your world. So two thoughts about your new book that I'll share with you. One, please do. Well, three, the first thought is, oh my God, get it here. The second thought is no pressure. The second thought

is if you can solve the brutality that follows the question, what's for dinner in partnered people all over the world, you will win the Nobel Peace Prize. Oh, I mean, everyone I've asked is like, this is literally the number one cause of our marital strife. No, it is. It is. I remember six months into the pandemic, Steve's like, hey, what's for dinner? And I would just lost my shit. I was just like, if you ever say that to me again. And so, you know what I think you're going to have to look into? Seriously, as a constraint, possibly? Tell me. I don't know if it's a real constraint. Decision fatigue. Yes. Even if Steve is cooking, I don't want him to ask me anything. Not terrible. That's a good one. It's terrible. I can't wait.

I can't wait for whatever you do next. I'm in. I can just say that. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. And thank you for being on the podcast. And thank you for being so human and real.

Thank you. Yeah. You're a stained glass window person. Thank you. I mean, honestly, it was what an honor to be asked. Truly. It was totally a surprise. I'm a huge fan of yours. I really also wanted to say I loved in particular, the episode with Tim and Dax. That one was really, really special. I told so many people about that one. And I just think your work is amazing. and it's affected so many people and created a vocabulary

of sensitivity and yeah and self-awareness for so many people who really didn't have that so thank you thank you for your work and um yeah thank you so much thank you I'm so glad to have and thank you for giving me the space to be a touchy feely today. So thank you. I think if people are going to care about us, they got to care about all of us. Truly. The whole piece. And seriously, I will see you in Austin for the breakfast taco tour. Oh my God. I can't wait. I can't wait. I'm so excited. That's really like, I'm like, I gotta go eat these breakfast tacos.

Oh, no, we'll go. My husband knows every taqueria in Austin and Houston. So we will make a whole thing of it. I can't wait. You know what I love the most about doing these podcasts is I love when we get to really dig in to what it means to be human. Sometimes I interview people that are really well known. Sometimes I interview people that no one's ever heard of. And when we get to unlock a deeper, more kind of serious, reflective side of people, that to me is the gift of this work. Because a lot of us feel like in this world, we have to turn that part of ourselves off. And so for Samin to let us see the same struggle that we see in ourselves, how do we connect during this time of disconnection? How do we be ourselves in a world that has got really specific needs about who they want us to be. I just feel like

these are the conversations I want to be in. And these are the conversations I want to hear more often. You can find her book, Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat, Mastering the Elements of Good Cooking, wherever you buy books. We'll link to it on our episode page. And you can watch her documentary by the same name on Netflix. I have to tell you, you got to watch it. It's really good. You can find Samin online at Chow Samin, C-I-A-O-S-A-M-I-N, and on Instagram and Twitter. And she's Samin Nasrat on Facebook. Couple Church Bulletin items. Don't forget that every episode of the Unlocking Us podcast has an episode page on BreneBrown.com, where we have resources, downloads, links, transcripts. You can also sign up for our newsletter there. Thank y'all for being here with us. Thank you

for being a part of the community and a part of the conversation. Stay awkward, brave, and kind, and I'll see you next week. Unlocking Us is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group. The music is by Keri Rodriguez and Gina Chavez. Get new episodes as soon as they're published by following Unlocking Us on your favorite podcast app. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com. customer platform that builds campaigns for you, tells you which leads are worth knowing, and makes writing blogs, creating videos, and posting on social a breeze. So now, it's easier than ever to be a marketer. Get started at HubSpot.com slash marketers. Support for this podcast comes from Anthropic. It's not always easy to harness the power and potential of AI. For all the talk

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