Unlocking Us with Brené Brown - Brené with Sarah Niles on Life, Truth, and Ted Lasso

Episode Date: September 29, 2021

Sarah Niles plays respected sports psychologist Dr. Sharon Fieldstone on Ted Lasso — and I just want to let you know that we have worked very hard for no show spoilers at all. It’s just a great conversation about where she came from, what she believes in, and the story of how she ended up as this central and pivotal character on one of our favorite shows. This is one of those podcasts where if you’re walking, just take a deep breath. If you’re driving, maybe crack the window. If you’re at home, grab some hot tea or a cup of coffee. To know Sarah is to love her and appreciate her talent, her gifts, and her commitment to truth, love, and kindness. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, everyone. I'm Brene Brown, and this is Unlocking Us. Oh, I'm so excited for this conversation. I'm so excited to share it with you. We are talking to Sarah Niles, who plays Dr. Sharon Fieldstone, the therapist on Ted Lasso. And I just want to let you know that we have worked very hard for no spoilers at all to know Sarah is really just to love her and appreciate her talent and her gifts and her commitment to truth and love and kindness. It is just a great conversation about where she came from, what she believes in, and the story of how she ended up as this really central character on Ted Lasso. So I'm so glad you're here. This is like one of those podcasts where if you're

walking, just take a deep breath and thank you for inviting us to walk with you. If you're driving, maybe crack the window if the weather's nice. If you're at home, grab some hot tea or a cup of coffee and just let it wash over you. She's just incredible. Support for this show comes from Macy's. Fall is in full swing and it's the perfect time to refresh your home and wardrobe for the sweater weather with new finds from Macy's. From October 9th to October 16th, get amazing deals on shoes and boots, on sale at 30% to 40% off. And you can shop new styles during the Macy's Fab Fall Sale from October 9th to October 14th. Shop oversized knits, warm jackets, and trendy charm necklaces,

and get 25% to 60% off on top brands when you do. Plus, get great deals on cozy home accessories from October 18th to October 27th. Shop in-store or online at Macy's.com. About a year ago, two twin brothers in Wisconsin discovered, kind of by accident, that mini golf might be the perfect spectator sport for the TikTok era. Meanwhile, a YouTuber in Brooklyn found himself less interested in tech YouTube and more interested in making coffee. This month on The Verge Cast, we're telling stories about these people who

tried to find new ways to make content, new ways to build businesses around that content, and new ways to make content about those businesses. Our series is called How to Make It in the Future, and it's all this month on The Verge Cast, wherever you get podcasts. All right, before we jump in and start talking to Sarah, let me tell you a little bit about her. Sarah Niles is a British film, TV, and theater actress. She has worked with The Globe, with the Royal Shakespeare Company, the National Theater, Royal Court, the Old Vic, the Bush Theater, and New York's Public Theater, to name a few. You may have seen her on different TV shows, including Beautiful People, Catastrophe, I May Destroy You, and most recently, Ted Lasso.

Her films include Rocks and Mike Lee's Happy Go Lucky. Let's jump in and meet Sarah Niles. Okay. Be cool. Be cool. Okay. Ready? I know, right? I'm not cool. I'm so goofy. It's crazy. I just can't get my shit together here. I'm too excited to see you. Oh my God, it's a gift. It's a gift. I just cannot tell you how excited I am to talk to you.

Likewise. I can't tell you. Likewise. It's just, I laughed when I saw your messages. I just laughed out loud. I broke all the rules and like messaged her on Instagram. I was like, I love you. Will you come on the podcast? I was like, somebody is joking here. No, I was, okay. So I have so many questions for you, but I want to start with,

will you share your story with us? Starting baby Sarah, like where were you born? Where did you go to school? Like tell us everything. So I'm from London. I'm from South, F f it's not th south London which is a big indicator my parents came over from Barbados and they lived in Brixton for a long time and then they managed to move to a house so that's when I was the baby that grew up in a house and

I'm the youngest and there's my brother my sister and uh there's three of us just living in this house my parents used to have parties all weekends like weekends just like it was more of a bringing the community together which was great I was always quite shy I don't think people always know that but I was quite shy and kind of quiet but I used to listen to a lot of their stories that they used to tell me or tell all of us they just share stories with their friends about back home and I think it was that that made me feel that just took me down the road of acting because it was a storytelling and just just hearing these stories and the transformation being able to transport and transform and I always felt much more comfortable being someone else rather than being myself

I don't know if I fully answered that question. Yeah, no, so a love affair with story from early on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then when did you, when was your first act? Well, first, let me even go back. I'm going to Sharon Fieldstone you. What were you like? You were kind of shy, the youngest. I was awkward.

I was just, I just remember feeling you're so odd. You're so not in your, like my daughter shy, the youngest. I was awkward. I just remember feeling, you're so odd. You're so not in your... My daughter is completely the opposite. I was so not in my own skin. I was so awkward. Yeah, that's how I felt. It was a perfect opportunity to play other people. What was your first acting experience?

My first acting experience was probably, I remember infant school, they were going to do the nativity play. And funny enough, I thought I was going to go for Mary. So maybe I thought I was quite shy, but I also had this imagination to think that I would get cast as Mary but that that didn't so I ended up ended up being in the choir and being one of the donkeys so that was that was my first experience and how old were you I must have been about uh how old like six five or six but you went for the Mary role yeah I don't even know what I was thinking because it just seems so you would have been an incredible Mary yeah ready for the Mary role. Yeah, I don't even know what I was thinking because it just seems so...

You would have been an incredible Mary. They weren't ready for that Mary. They weren't ready for that Mary. No, and I had lots of strange experiences. I remember doing a school play. I got offered the part of Angel Gabriel and I just couldn't learn my lines. I just get so nervous. And I remember this teacher

saying to me while I was doing the scene if you don't learn those lines you're going to lose this part and then there was this just this feeling of shame you know like feeling ashamed that I couldn't do it correct the shame has been with me from very young age I think that's part of the awkwardness and kind of my experiences of growing up was always like, you just keep your head down, you know, stay in line, don't ruffle any feathers. My parents are from the Caribbean and the teacher was always right. And they just wanted to continue down that line of survival, doing their job. And, you know, you do well at school, you become a doctor or a lawyer or accountant. And there was no one doing drama or art or anything like that. Isn't that incredible that, you know, stay in line, head down, you know, but yet you were going for these roles.

Yeah. You were, yeah, like you had this creative thing that was not going to be denied, right? Yeah, I think it's this thing. I mean, I was talking a while ago with a therapist about this, like this kind of thing of keeping in line and how suffocating it is. And I don't think I could really articulate it. I just felt very kind of like boxed in. Yeah. You know, you see some people who are just able to, from the get-go,

know who they are and they're just pushing boundaries. I didn't feel like I was. I feel like I was secretly doing little rebellions, just secretly and quietly, very small little rebellions. And we talked about going back to the time of slavery, colonial, that kind of thing of putting your head above the parapet would cost you your life. Yes.

So we were talking about that and I just, you know, it was really like, wow, that's shaped so much of me growing up in a way. But then there was another part of it where my parents came over and had no experience of this country. And to me, that's brave. And the little brave choices that they made, you know, it's like everybody in their own way was trying to be brave, you know. Tell me about high school. Tell me about being a teenager. Are you acting in plays at this point?

Yeah, I was doing drama. I mean, I did everything. I kind of went down more or less the straight line. You know, I thought like, how do I survive? I survive. I don't get any fights with girls because I'm the clown in class. I can be funny. And I was good at drama. That was the way I kind of found ways to survive and just ways to navigate and hide in a way. Like I kept thinking, I'm hiding myself. I'm hiding myself by playing these characters.

And all my friends who thought, she's really funny. Oh my gosh, she's really serious when she's doing a drama. She's really good, you know, and couldn't quite put the two together in a way. I just did it like that. I just went down the road doing drama. I joined a youth theatre. I did it that way, you know. But all the time it was kind of like my aunts and uncles and mum and dad just kept thinking,

she's really smart. She's going to go down the line of like doctor or, you know. She's going to shift course. Yeah. And it was always like, this is just a hobby. This is just a hobby. No, not a hobby. Yeah. It's funny. It wasn't until I think it was around like college when they kind of realized, oh my gosh, they came to see some productions I did. And they were kind of like, oh, she's really good. And what were the productions?

Like what kind of theater were you doing? Were you doing contemporary theater? Were you doing Shakespeare? What were you doing? Or everything? A bit of everything. I did, when I did the National Youth Theater, which was a Battersea Arts Youth Theater,

I did Measure for Measure and I played Isabel. And I did Oedipus Rex which was a Greek tragedy I did that at college I'd always like the classicals because the classicals gave you a chance to be epic to be big oh expansive you could really spread your wings in parts like that you know and reimagine yourself and I was always looking to reimagine myself. Help me figure this out. This is so interesting because I'm often asked, what is like the epitome of vulnerability to you? And I said, you know, it's different for everybody, but for me, I don't understand how people act.

Like I don't understand theater and film and television. I just cannot imagine anything more vulnerable than someone saying action. And then you have to do something and people are watching and then they'll say, cut. Can you do it more this way or that way? I feel like I would die if I had to do that. Yet you're doing this. Well, I'd feel like I would die if I had to stand in front of thousands of people and talk like what you do. I could not do that. I could not do that. No, really?

I really couldn't. I really, I really couldn't. I find it really hard. Like I've had to do loads of interviews, like Ted Lasso. And I get thinking, oh my gosh, what's Apple going to be saying? Because I was just like,

I've been getting like hot. Like, you know, you just get a little sweat around the neck, back of the neck around kind of, oh,'ve got to be myself I still get that but um being able to act in front of people it's spiritual I've always been able to transport if that makes any sense I go somewhere else but then I'm super aware of things like I can hear a pin drop like when I should do theatre I could hear the person in row three cough. I was super aware. I felt so much in my power. I really felt free in the way that you can move with the audience. So every performance, every night was different, just felt

different based on it's an offering and sharing of a story. Wow. Without an ego or anything, but yeah, it's really just, it's a relationship. It's spiritual. I mean, that's how when I'm doing my work on stage, I can hear a pin drop. I can hear the person on the third row coughing. But I feel so just in this kind of connective, kind of transformative space that, you know, even if I give the same talk two nights in a row, it's completely different because the audience is different. Okay, let me go back. So you're in high school, you're doing performances, you're in college. Are you falling in and out of love? Are you wild? Are you an introvert or extrovert? What are you like off stage? I feel like I, can I say introvert, extrovert? Yeah, for sure.

I had this wonderful way of being like loud and being really kind of goofy, loud. I still have a part of that with me now, but I was really able to just really do that. Keep everything at a distance, more or less. Yeah. And then there was a part of me that was like, I always felt, oh, it's the real me. It's on stage. I feel like, yes, I can be really both those things. And there's a part of me that was like, I always felt, oh, it's the real me. It's on stage. I feel like, yes, I can be really both those things. And there's a fluidity with that and be able to survive like that. But in the real, like, outside world, I couldn't necessarily be that way.

I felt like there was expectations. Like I'd created this kind of monster where I was like, yeah, clowny and silly. And then all my friends, that's what they expected of me. And then it was a part of me. I always remember from secondary school, like high school, always wanted to hang around what we used to call the boffins, like the super nerdy people who are really smart. I always wanted to hang around with them, but I was quite popular. I always used to talk to them and they always be like, if she's talking, why is she talking to us? And I was like, I think those are my people.

Yeah. Isn't that weird? I mean, I think it's so weird how the inner Sarah is like, those are my people over there. Yeah. And then the outer Sarah is, so you were funny and gregarious. Yeah. But also inside you were shy and yeah nerdy yeah I was awkward with boys I'm different now but I was really like oh I don't know people thought I should

be super confident but not at all so my little hideaway was really acting I know I love that and it's just we talk a lot about the power of paradox on the podcast and how two seemingly opposing things can be true yeah and how so many of us straddle the tensions of both because I was gregarious and loud and wild but inside very introverted very fearful very unsure of the world and myself in the world at the same time. So I think both things can be true about us, don't you think? Yeah, definitely. And then there's that part of you, like when you're a teenager, I always think it's like a kind of breakthrough

when you're beginning to become somehow aware of your sexual power. Yes. That was something, I didn't grow up in a militant home, but it felt like that's not something you express as such it was complex because my parents used to play like calypso and reggae and soca and it was people always dancing together and dancing in a group and I'd been dancing since I was two so I could do you know I could really do all the dances and stuff I was always confident dancing but never wanted to dance with anyone, you know, in that sense.

So it's really, that's weird. If you'd see me dance, you'd think, oh, she's very much in her own power. But I was always awkward for a very long time. God, it's kind of like that third space of who I am and the world and how do I navigate who I am with the world. Yeah. When did you move to London? Always been in London. What I did do is when I was like 19, you know, you'd apply for drama school. I took a year out. It was funny. I'd auditioned for drama schools and they were going,

first of all, it was like, my name is Sarah Louise. They would look at the name and then they'd look at me and think, those, the name and you don't match. And I was like, oh yeah, the name and me don't match. Okay. like oh yeah the name and me don't match okay and then there was that part and then it was also I knew they kept saying you're very young you seem very young you're very good but you're very young maybe you should take some time and so I took a year out and then I thought okay I'm just gonna move out of London and go and study elsewhere so I studied in northern England which is Manchester and I went to study there for three years and because I thought if I don't get out of London I probably won't so then I studied there for three years I stayed up north I moved further up north

to Leeds and I worked in Liverpool and actually they were really great experiences for me because I then was in a space where I could be expansive and I was with different people and also I was taking roles that weren't necessarily the roles that I would have like my other colleagues who were studying London weren't getting those roles and I was getting that because there was a kind of imagination I feel feel, in a way. I think like London, you kind of, sometimes it was about race. Oh, yeah. And up there, it was like, you could just be really creative. That was my experience. But the third space, that's really interesting. I would never have termed it that way. But I think about the third space, which I find really interesting.

So let me ask you this. First of all, what's it like being in an immigrant family in London growing up? It's kind of like, I feel like my feet don't always, I'm in one land and then in another, you know, there's a home that I feel really connected to, but I've never lived there. And there's experience here. And that's probably part of my attraction to acting and storytelling is trying to find home in a way, if that makes sense. Oh man, it makes perfect sense. Trying to find home outside of us and inside of us. Yeah. So you come back from the North of England and Sarah's like, Jesus Christ, she's not going to let me out of this biography anytime soon. No, I'm not. I'm going to walk you through this. Tell me about your favorite parts, your most challenging parts as you're acting. Like, was there a moment that you

had a part where you're like, oh my God, this is what I want to do. Like, what was the experience like for you? What was going inside your heart and your head? I got back to London and I was like temping, like doing office work and just auditions. And I joined in a few bands because I used to sing like jazz. And I remember getting asked to go back up what we call the middle, like the Midlands. It was a place called Leicester that was like to do this repertory because the repertory theatre was now starting, kind of in a way, dying out. There wasn't many places that did a series of plays for a number of times, unless it was Shakespeare, more or less.

And so I'd been asked to do this one-woman show and I had no idea what the play was about. I read this part and I was like, I don't get it, but I'm going to just blag it and see if I can get this job. And it was like 30, 40 characters. And I would do that and I would do To Kill a Mockingbird. And then I'd maybe do a Christmas show. And I feel like doing that one woman show, I got the job and it was like 50 or 60 characters. And it was just me, a bench and a bag.

What? Yeah. It was such a beautiful piece of writing by a writer called Kate Adshead. And she was an actress as well. And she kind of wrote this kind of like a Medea piece. It was basically, she got commissioned with a number of other writers to comment on Labour Party coming into power. And it was about this woman who was an asylum seeker. And it was about how the breakdown of the system, in effect, breaks her down. So she plays all the characters that she interacts with from her the lawyer the neighbor and that to me was one of the most challenging and one of the most exciting roles that I had to like that point to be able to trust and understand you can do this the capacity of

what you can create on stage, the world you can create. I mean, I would imagine when you are in your power and you're acting, that you have to have every sensor open. Yeah. You know, like everything is open. So things flow in and out between you and the audience. And the only thing that could get in the way is bullshit or the not truth. And when everything's open like that, I think we are open to sensing and hearing, especially reminders that talk to us about the importance of the truth. Yeah, definitely.

If you tell the truth, right? Yeah. I'm always attracted to truth telling And more and more as I'm getting older, I'm beginning to trust much more in my own truth, you know? And being more myself. Also part of it being a daughter that's, you know, first generation. You spend a lot of time trying to fit in. What's the right way to behave? What's the right way to be? What's the right way to be accepted? And you spend a lot of that time doing that. More and more, I'm just trusting in who I am. Yeah. There's a lot of pressure I would imagine to assimilate and be a certain way. And it sounds like your daughter

does not have. No. It sounds like you raised her with a lot of freedom to figure out who she is. How old is your daughter? She's nine. Yeah. Oh, what a fun age. I know. I know. It's just, she teaches me so much. Hello, I'm Esther Perel, psychotherapist and host of the podcast Where Should We Begin, which delves into the multiple layers of relationships, mostly romantic. But in this special series, I focus on our relationships with our colleagues, business partners and managers. Listen in as I talk to co-workers facing their own challenges with one another and get the real work done. Tune into Housework, a special series from Where Should We Begin, sponsored by Klaviyo.

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Well, let's talk about the Ted Lasso call. Yeah. So your agent calls, I'm assuming. I know I got an email just to say, oh, there's a casting for this show. And I didn't hear, I didn't know anything about the show, but I knew the casting director because the casting director used to be my agent.

Oh. And this is what, it was hilarious was part of me was going, okay, I want to do a good take for this. So she somehow will think, yes, I made the right choice in choosing her as a client. Like how many years, years and years ago. Part of my kind of. I get it. I track. I want to blow this out of the water

so she can look back and think yeah and we were in lockdown and I hated self tapes and I was like oh I just want to meet people and get a vibe and so I got a friend over to self tape with me and he's like have you not watched this

show I was like what show this no I haven't and he goes you need So I got a friend over to self-tape with me. And he's like, have you not watched this show? I was like, what show? This? No, I haven't. And he goes, you need to watch this show. I was like, okay, let's just do the self-tape and I'll watch it afterwards. So I do the self-tape, set it off. And then I started watching bits of the show, not just the first few episodes.

And I was like, this is really good. There's something honest about this. And there's a lot of heart in this. And I was just thinking, this is really good. And then I was like, oh my God, I need to get this job. It's too late. I've already sent the tape. I don't know if I'll get it. So I was like, I'm going to put it all out there. I'm going put it all out there I'm gonna manifest affirmations I'm gonna be like sending some vibes to Jason like pick me pick me you know and then um got a call to say yeah which is great actually I kept getting these messages you're in the mix or uh I think Jason's gonna look at some of your tape you know your showreel or whatever and I was like oh come on come on just say yes but then yeah I got the job and you were excited yeah I was really excited really really excited because I watched SNL I watched Jason in Horrible Bosses it's funny I remember

looking at him and thinking what's going on behind the eyes what's going on beyond the eyes and I remember thinking whenever I used to tell my, who I used to self-table up with, I always used to say, it's about the eyes. It's really about the eyes. And then when I first met Jason, he said, it's all in the eyes. It's all in the eyes. And I was like, okay. And he was like, yeah, what I do is I just watch and I, you know, see how the actor is. I put the volume down. I just watch. And I didn't put two and two together until later on. I you know, see how the actor is. I put the volume down. I just watch. And I didn't put two and two together until later on. I was like, oh my gosh. Yeah. He said that. It's all in the eyes. Let me tell you something. You cannot look away from your eyes when you're

on the screen in Ted Lasso. I feel like I risk falling into them and never coming back out. Like, how do you do that? I don't know. I don't know. I just really had to, I don't know, exhale, go into a place. I really didn't know what I was doing with this character. I really didn't know what the hell. Jason was very kind in offering up lots of information when I first started. Before, actually, we had a little chat, and he was just saying this and

you know about this character that and I remember on the page it said she's very kind and I was like but some of the things she's saying aren't so kind but I just was like trust trust trust and just be open and be vulnerability is okay you know I feel like in my acting is what I do best. God, you're so vulnerable in this role. It's my superpower. Vulnerability is my superpower, I think. And I never properly give it enough kudos. And it puts me in a funny place, puts my stomach sometimes in a funny place.

Just got to root and trust in it all, you know? Had you ever played a therapist before? No, no, no, no. Social workers, detectives. No, I had no clue. And I was thinking, she says she's really good at her job. I never say I'm really good at my job. Like she's the complete opposite of me.

She's really confident in what she's doing. I'm not like that. I can't keep still. This is a woman who is so in her skin. Yeah. So you had never played a therapist before. This is probably personal. Did you have any experience to draw on at all in terms of what therapy was like? Yeah, I've had therapists before.

So you knew the therapeutic relationship, you knew kind of... Yeah. And you know what, Jason was like, I'm going to put you in touch with someone that he knew who works in sports and stuff for whatever reason it never happened and I'm kind of grateful for that because yeah I could only source from myself yes and you know it's like I talk about the connection with the audience it's also the connection with the person you're working with and I felt like if if we both trust in that space and we both look into each other's eyes and we offer up that generosity and that openness, then we both can do kind of our best work

within those scenes. Wow. Makes sense. Yeah. So I have to say that as you can only imagine, I'm friends with a lot of therapists. Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah. So I have to say that as you can only imagine, I'm friends with a lot of therapists. Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah.

A shit ton is the proper measurement for that. They think you're amazing. I can't believe it. It's mad. I mean, they do. And I think it's your, I mean, we're going back to this. I mean, I need to rename the podcast like the Paradox Podcast, but your character is a living example of you are an expert, but you are deeply human and vulnerable. You are kind, but you are boundaried. You are sure about yourself,

but curious about the world. Like, how do you hold the tension? Does that resonate with you, those paradoxes? Yeah, they do. I don't think I sit down and articulate it or think about it, process it that way. But I'm always interested in that, holding that middle space, like between one and the other. And, you know, I felt extremely frightened and vulnerable. And, you know, like I often battle with my talent or how good I am. And there'd been a lockdown. And I was then trying to juggle two jobs at the same, trying to film two things at the same time and also thinking, are they happy with what I'm doing?

Because I don't know what I'm doing. All I can do is I have to just be in that space with this character, Ted, and just like, let's just go to a place where we can just bring it to a rooted and real and I was always looking for her humanity, always looking for her kindness, her love, her care. And I feel like what she's good at is that she cares. But there has to be boundaries.

There has to be. Yeah, no. And I think you do that. I'm sure you remember the friend, you're like, he's like, hey, doc. And you're like, it's doctor. You can just hear therapists all over the world going, yes. Because there is a tension between your character and Ted Lasso or Jason's character, between kind and nice, between real wholehearted kindness and sometimes performative niceness.

And you're very, I don't know if you're getting the whispers of just tell the truth and you'll be okay, but you're so truthful. And we get to see you as a person in your humanity, which I think is so important because a lot of times the characters of therapists don't have a humanity. And if you add to that a black woman playing a therapist, there's no humanity. There's just in service of the people you're with. God, I think I might cry. You know, when I got this job and I don't know, I always have, I just always kind of asked for kind of just any offerings that are going to teach me and help me to learn and be better. And I started finding myself going down a road of where one, there was a conversation that was taking place on Twitter that I somehow accidentally came across

about therapists. And it started off with, I may destroy you. And I thought, okay. So I was like, okay. So they were talking about, discussing about the black therapist in that show. And then they started talking about how some things within it didn't ring true about turning up at her house at night and, you know, just things and her opening the door. I said, okay, fine.

But then there was that conversation again that I've always, like with parts wrestling with, like always playing these characters where you're facilitating the story, you're in servitude. We no longer play the roles of like the maid, the mammy, you know, you then start to play the parts of the best friend, the friend at work, the social worker, the nurse, the doctor. And then it's all dressed up in an idea that you're in a position of power because maybe you're a detective head detect chief inspector you know you're all these role but you're always serving the story you don't have an arc and you serve the story and I was really frightened about

that and I kept thinking so who am I I'm this black woman and she's in sports and she's over 40. And I was thinking, how can I just keep, if I try to be more of who that is and more myself, that's the best I can do. Because I don't necessarily have control of what's in the paper. But it's funny, my husband said said to me what you did with that character Sharon is that you did this you just pulled the doors open and you pushed all the way in oh I've got goosebumps that's true I had the same thing that when you said to me in your eyes there's not just story there's books and books of what it means to be human. And I was like, oh my gosh, if I've just made her human, then that's a good job. I didn't know what

it was going to be like when people saw it, when, you know, when it comes out. And I was just like, I wrestled with it myself so much. And I felt like, oh no, I don't know if I've done it. I don't know. And I think it's interesting. I think this whole idea of servitude dressed up in professionalism is still servitude. It is. And worse so. Tell it like it is. Don't pretend. I mean, yeah, like, right.

Yeah. It's got a layer of deception and manipulation when you use professionalism to hide what it is. I agree. Yeah. It's got a layer of deception and manipulation when you use professionalism to hide what it is. I agree. Yeah. Sharon Fieldstone, something happens where I was talking with Laura Mays, who produces the podcast on our team. And we were like, we want a whole spinoff show on Sharon. Like, we want to know where she's from. We want to meet her therapist. We want to know who her love interest is. We want to know, you know, and so I think that speaks to what you've done.

And I forgot that I wrote that to you on my, like really sliding into your DMs, as they say, on Instagram, where I said, you know, there are books and books and books and story. I mean, not just a story in your eyes, but books and books in your eyes when you're that character. And I just so, you know what I keep thinking? You and I were talking about You Are Your Best Thing, the book that I edited with Tarana. And I remember Tarana's quote, I'm not interested in any anti-racist work that doesn't take time to honor and cherish and celebrate Black humanity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's so much humanity in this character. Thank you.

I find myself, since I've seen you, I know it's crazy, but trying to listen like you sometimes, your character. Yeah, I try that also. I know it's crazy, but trying to listen like you sometimes, your character. Yeah, I try that also. You're not reactive. It's working for you. In my life, yeah.

Trying to listen like Sharon Moore, yeah. She's just like... But you know, also I've forgotten, like when I got the job, when I first met Jason, we had a quick chat. I was going in for a fitting. He said, do you know Brene Brown? And I was like, no, I don't think so. I don't think so. And then he said, oh, I'm going to send you some links to some of her work. And then when I looked at it, I was like,

I know who she is. Like, you know, your TED talk about shame and vulnerability and the conversations you said, like one of the things that always rang true to me is like you can't talk about race without talking about shame. I might not be quoting it right, but. That's right.

And I kept tapping into that because I was like, as soon as I enter into that space and it's me and Jason, we cannot separate the fact that I'm a black woman, I'm British and she's a head of a sport, you know. And I just thought, you know, you don't have any problem with discussing that and bringing that to the table. I can't have any problem with bringing that to the table. Like even on a subtle level, without even speaking it out, I know what that is.

And I have to be, stand rooted and strong in who I am, if that makes sense. Yeah. No, it makes total sense. And this is like the second or third time since we started our conversation that you've used the word rooted. Yeah. And there is something so firmly planted about the character and about you in the character. Can you tell me and everyone that's listening, is there anything you do that would be helpful

for those of us who, when the winds pick up and we feel just blown to hell, is there anything that you do to get rooted and be grounded in moments? All I try to do is just like root my feet and just feel like I have a right to be here. I deserve to be loved. I deserve to be seen and loved. I am seen and I am loved. And that's what I try to do.

Like when I got a bit of a wobble like sometimes I'd be like oh man um I'm just sitting here I'm not saying anything and you know you get the kind of voices that you have you know the negative voices that tell you you're not good enough and I just kept saying no I deserve to be seen and be loved. And that's what I tried to put into Sharon and I try to put in my life when I can just completely to take space, to believe that I have a right to be here and a right to take this space because so much of it has been not taking up space. So much of my life and so much of my experience as a black woman is about not taking up space. I mean, it's so beautiful. And I can see that maybe I'm drawing a line that shouldn't be drawn, but I'm also seeing the line between taking up space and feeling expansive on the stage.

Yeah, definitely. Is there a line there? Definitely. A through line? Yeah, definitely. There is about that. I mean, I'm still waiting. Sometimes I feel like I have these great big wings and I still am doing a bit of this, you know, still waiting for this completely fully. Yeah, it is about that.

It is about love, loving and honoring yourself and knowing that you have a right to be here and honoring and taking up that space. So much of my upbringing was not to do that. It's dangerous, you know. Right. You get in trouble for it. And then one of the things that just kind of kept me going,

I did this beautiful play called Leave Taking by this brilliant writer called Winsome Pinnock. And she's quite a gentle and shy woman. But when she puts the pen on paper, I feel like she's... Wow. Her wings come way out, huh? Yeah. And she wrote this play back in the 80s when she was like in her 20s

and she wrote this play. And it's kind of like a love letter to an older Caribbean woman who comes to this country with these dreams and stuff and no longer with her partner. And she's trying to raise these children and the children are becoming partner and she's trying to raise these children and the children are

becoming older and having a different experience and understanding of England that she doesn't and she's got a mother in Jamaica and the mother passed away she can't get to see her it's a number of things and it's that play a lot of it was about being seen and a lot of it was like kind of honoring those aunties and grandmothers and those women that set the path for us to be here and it's just like that set me down a road of love and honor and then I'm in a way jumping onto I May Destroy You what Michaela did with the character that I played was that she offered up, again, love. You know, I think about being beloved, you know,

and I thought that character is beloved. Even in a short space of time, she's taken up space. She's loved, and that's really important. And we don't often see that. We don't see it enough, especially with black women. No, we don't. There's quite often times I'm on my own. I don't have any love interests. I don't have anyone who loves me or I'm loved.

And that happens. Sometimes it's the nature of the story, but quite often it's just taken as a norm. Sometimes it's the case of whiteness. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, really. Yeah, and just not considering it. Just not even considering that

that person you know what does that do to the psyche of people who watch that you know when the world is the tv or you know what they see like quite often a lot of young people look to america and you see these great big stories like how to get away with murder she had oh my gosh she had life and breath and she by a low just like could go for all kinds of transitions and transferred and other characters who came in, you know, it's just like. No, it's again, you're talking about what does it do for people watching that?

I think for white people, it's confirmation. Yeah. Of entitlement and space. And for black people and other people of color, it's possibly confirmation of danger around taking up too much space. There are no words about when you're on the screen in that show, you fill up every space

and you fill it up with really just love and truth. Thank you. Yeah, it's, you're amazing. Oh, thank you. Yeah, I truly believe in the love and just also the expansion of things. And yeah, that space. And I was just like, so many people have said, oh, you know, we love what you did in I May Destroy You.

And I was like, what did I I do I was in a few scenes but what I did is I think is it was the truth and offering up love to Michaela's character in that short space you know care compassion warmth yeah affection affection I mean just yeah all right you ready for some rapid fire questions okay I'm so excited to hear your answers I have to say all right okay fill in the blank for me which you've already kind of answered but we'll do it again fill in the blank for me vulnerability is strength of heart and truth okay you Sarah called to be very brave, but your fear is real. You can feel it and taste it in your throat. What is the very first thing you do? Breathe in, breathe out and sit with it. Breathe in, breathe out. Yeah. Oh, okay. What is something that people often get wrong about you?

They think I'm really confident and loud. I'm really shy. What is the last TV show that you binged and loved? Oh, I think I started watching The Morning Show. Oh, that's good. Yeah. Yeah, I think I was watching that. That's the one the one i watched yeah favorite movie or one of your favorite movies blazing saddles i like the blazing saddles the producers anything that mel brooks has touched i was not expecting that. Actually, I went for a period where I was really depressed.

And every time I'd play the opening of when Gene Wilder came in, in The Producers. Yes. It's like, and Zero Mostel. And that used to get me going. Yeah, get outside now. Go on with the day. Oh my God. I was not expecting that.

That is so great. A concert that you'll never forget. Oh my God. I was not expecting that. That is so great. A concert that you'll never forget. Oh gosh. There's so many. One of them is I saw this quiet little concert with Alicia Keys in Elephant Castle in this little tiny space, Coronet. It was beautiful. She had a lot of cold, her voice broke and it was just, and she was hearing the piano. Yeah. She's incredible. Yeah. Okay. Oh, this is a good one.

Favorite meal. My favorite meal. Yeah. At the moment, nostalgia. There's a thing in Barbados called cuckoo, which is maybe cornmeal. It's lovely and it's dense and you put a really rich gravy in there. So it's cuckoo and flying fish. Oh, yum. Like it sounds like really good comfort food.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay, what's on your nightstand? Books. What kind of books? I never complete. Yeah, books. Michaela Cole's Misfits.

Oh, yeah. All About Love. Oh, Bell Hooks, yeah. Oh, yeah. All About Love. Oh, Bell Hooks. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. A snapshot of an ordinary moment in your life that gives you real joy. Cooking.

Cooking. You like to cook. I do. I like to put love in it and cook I never know sometimes what the outcome is going to be I mean they're always good but sometimes I like to go off piste what's your favorite thing to cook I cook a lot of like rice and peas and Caribbean food and like I mess around with it a bit not not the traditional way. Yum. Yeah. I love making soups though. Soups are my jam.

Yeah. Soups are good. Yeah. Tell me one thing you're deeply grateful for right now. My daughter. Yeah. I'm really grateful for that. No matter what, she loves me.

Yes. No matter what. Yeah. All right. We asked you to make a mini mixtape. Five songs that you could not live without. Here's what she loves me. Yes, no matter what. Yeah. All right. We asked you to make a mini mixtape. Five songs that you could not live without. Here's what you gave us. Dreamland by Marsha Griffiths.

Feeling Good by Nina Simone. Me, Myself and I by De La Soul. Misty by Donny Hathaway. And Boots by Gabby, re-released on the Till Now album. Yeah. In one sentence, what does this mini mixtape say about you? Ah, roots and culture. Roots and culture.

Roots and culture. Yeah. That's everything, isn't it? Roots and culture. Yeah. Do you love listening to music do you I love it that was so hard for me I love Prince Kate Bush I had a whole haul and oats I was like oh my god there's so many people I just yeah it's hard well I have to say a huge thank you for being on the

podcast you um thank you you were just one of my favorite characters but you're one of my favorite people too. Oh, bless you. Yeah, I know. You bring so much of what we need to the world. So thank you for that. Oh, thank you so much. Likewise, you do.

Absolutely. 100%. You keep us coping on. You keep us keeping on. Thank you. Thank you. What a wonderful conversation and what a just beautiful human being. I took so much away of it, especially, I don't know, maybe the juxtaposition of being rooted and expansive at the same time.

The eyes, if you've seen her on Ted Lasso, you'll know that she holds so much love and kindness and truth-telling in those eyes. You really can't stop looking. We'll put all the links to where you can find Sarah and learn more about her on the episode page on brennabrown.com. And we will be back soon. Stay awkward, brave, and kind, rooted, and expansive. See y'all next time. Bye. Unlocking Us is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group. The music is by Keri Rodriguez and Gina Chavez. Get new episodes as soon as they're published

by following Unlocking Us on your favorite podcast app. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com. Support for this show is brought to you by Nissan Kicks. dot voxmedia dot com. We'll be right back. Available feature. Bose is a registered trademark of the Bose Corporation. Support for this podcast comes from Klaviyo. You know that feeling when your favorite brand really gets you.

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