Unlocking Us with Brené Brown - Brené with Viola Davis on Being Brave, Speaking Truth, and Finding Me

Episode Date: May 11, 2022

I’m talking with none other than the amazing, singular Viola Davis about her new memoir, Finding Me. This book, and this conversation, are gifts — deep reflections on a turbulent childhood, the journey to overcoming trauma, and how she found her voice in the often brutal entertainment industry. She shares some extraordinary experiences that have changed her, and because of who she is, they’ve in turn changed us. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi everyone, I'm Brittany Brown and this is Unlocking Us. Have an incredible conversation for you today with none other than the amazing singular Viola Davis. Just what a, you know, talking about tough and tender and brave and vulnerable. She's got a new memoir out called Finding Me. I just read that it debuted at number one on the New York Times bestseller list, which is so exciting for her and so well-deserved. We're going to talk about the book. It is a very deep reflection that takes us on a journey through Viola's childhood, overcoming trauma, finding

her voice, what it's like being in just a kind of brutal industry, to be honest with you, and just some extraordinary experiences that have changed her and because of who she is, they've by turn changed us. I am so glad you're here for this conversation. Before we go to our first break, I want to, in case you don't know, I announced on Monday and then we've gone off on social this week. I am, for the first time in my career, going on a very serious sabbatical this summer.

We're also doing kind of a critical mass restoration and rest at Brené Brown Education and Research, our company. And so we're going away for a few months. We are taking a hiatus with the podcast. We're going dark on social for four months. It's scary and it's weird, but I'm so driven by this idea.

It's a quote that is often attributed to Viktor Frankl. No one really knows where it comes from, but I think Viktor Frankl's work is so represented in it that I'm choosing that, but it's got an interesting history. You can read more on brenebrown.com. But the quote is, between stimulus and response, there is a space. And in that space, there's the power of choice. And with that choice comes freedom and learning. And so celebrating 26 years sobriety this month, that's the first time I ever got a glimpse at that space between stimulus and response. And I'm going to celebrate those 26 years by reinvesting in the

next 26 with creating some space. So we'll be gone until September, but I'm so glad you're here for this conversation. Support for this show comes from Macy's. Fall is in full swing and it's the perfect time to refresh your home and wardrobe for the sweater weather with new finds from Macy's. Fall is in full swing, and it's the perfect time to refresh your home and wardrobe for the sweater weather with new finds from Macy's. From October 9th to October 16th, get amazing deals on shoes and boots on sale at 30 to 40% off. And you can shop new styles during the Macy's Fab Fall Sale from October 9th to October 14th. Shop oversized knits, warm jackets, and trendy charm necklaces and get 25 to 60% off on top brands when you do. Plus, get great deals on cozy home accessories from October 18th to October 27th. Shop in-store or online at Macy's.com.

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Check it out wherever you get your podcasts. Before we jump in, let me tell you a little bit about Viola. Not that you need it, but it's very interesting. She is a critically revered actress of film, television, and theater. She's won rave reviews for her multiple and substantial and intriguingly diverse roles. She has Oscar-nominated performances in The Help, Doubt, Ma to Get Away with Murder, making her the first Black woman in history to take home the award. In addition to acting, Viola currently produces alongside her husband and producing partner Julius Tinnin through their Juvie Productions banner. They have produced award-winning productions across theater, television, and film. Let's talk to Viola. Can I just say, oh, holy shit.

You did it. You went there. We talked about this. At the jump off. Yeah. My friend, you jumped, you spread your arms, and you soared. Yeah. My friend, you jumped, you spread your arms and you soared. Yeah, I tried to. You did. Let me just start by saying, congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. I'm feeling really free. I think I was like, you know, because I'm reading a book and I saw Atlas of the Heart. So trying to use the right language. I feel free. I do.

I feel that there is in a weird kind of way, especially with what I do, I feel like I have brought my representative into rooms more so than myself. I'm always negotiating with my representative and me saying, you know what? Maybe you need to go in there. I need to step out because if I say A, B, and C, then I'm going to just ruin my opportunity. So I'll be at home and you can go in front of me. Yeah. Just say the right thing, do the right thing. So yeah, that's what I felt. I want to jump in here and you know, I'm just going to go for it because I'm just going

to try to catch a midair on the soar. It's just, I mean, when you talk about your representative, you talk about the Viola that you send places to say the right things and do the right things. Tell me about your relationship with your representative. My relationship with my representative has always been very anxiety filled. And the reason is because I don't know what my representative should look like and sound like. So it's been a fight. Get Away With Murder is a perfect example. I remember entering that TV show the first time and I remember trying to lose weight. It didn't work. It really didn't. Because I said, I got to look like a leading lady. I was getting in the jacuzzi. I don't know what I was eating. I was eating something because I don't know how to diet. But I said, I got to lose weight. My wig has got to look right. I got to be that woman. I do. Until I couldn't be that woman. And I saw that I couldn't be that woman. I was wrestling with her.

I've always wrestled with her. Yeah. Oh, yeah. hard, too black, too much of something that everybody rejected. So I would only bring her out during the Martin Luther King celebrations at Juilliard every other time. I don't know, I left her on the subway somewhere because no one knew how to deal with her. And I found that everyone thought she was unattractive and too masculine. It's hard to show up, like you say. Especially, I'm not going to say especially, but when you're a dark-skinned Black woman, it is very difficult to show up because a lot of times you can't even show up in the places where everyone is black because colorism is its own different story. Yes. And then people, the only way they know how to deal with it is by comparing it to their own experience and you want to connect with them so you say, yeah, it's like that

but it's really not like that but you can't say anything I found I was always hiding the real Viola Viola, real Viola just wasn't enough. Ever. Ever.

We've talked before. I interviewed you for Braving the Wilderness. We talked when you were working on this book. I was so curious slash excited slash, I don't know what, I had all these big feelings about what would happen when I opened to the first page, whether I was going to be able to meet the street fighter, scrappy kid Viola in this book. And very first line, very first chapter, I met her. Yeah. Kid's a fighter. Well, I tried to make the first chapter sort of my handshake.

Say more. Sort of my introduction into this is me. Straight, no, chaser. This is me. I tried to make it that here's the thing if I were to be so bold to say please it's another thing in our profession you're always thinking about what you say because you don't know how it's going to blow up out there but yeah I always compare it to the first man who was ever on the earth. And he's standing in front of the ocean and the sky and the mountains.

And this is before language, before psychology, before people were given names, before anything. And he's trying to make sense out of his existence. He's trying to find the words to say, who am I? What am I supposed to do now? What am I supposed to do with this heartbeat? How do I find companionship? What is companionship? Who do I find companionship? What is companionship? Who do I thank? That's how I feel at times that I don't know what to do. That my life is sort of like, tell me how to dress. Tell me who to be.

Tell me who I'm supposed to love and how to love so I can get to a place of what my therapist calls home. Because otherwise I feel just alone and confused. That's it. Until I realized something that my first therapist said to me, which is, Viola, if your life never, ever changed, if you kept all the attributes that you have right now, if you always felt awkward and you always felt all of these things, but it didn't really shift that much. Would you be okay? And I was like, I'm paying you $100 an hour to tell me this shit. But I thought about it and it took me the longest time and I said, I would.

And that was my aha moment with the first chapter that the wetting the bed, the domestic violence, the sexual abuse, the being tough, the winning, all is taking place on the same plane. That you have to count on all joy. You have to. There's no other negotiating any other life but yours. This is it. There's no rewind button. And I've been doing this. My other big aha moment is I always thought, once again, life is a relay race. I sort of like saying that too, Brene, because it was kind of a slick thing as an actor to say life is a relay race. My legacy is to pass a baton on to the next great runner. It's my job, my legacy to understand what my leg of the race is in life.

I pass it to the next generation of runners and they pass it to the next generation. That's how you change the world. And in writing the book, I realized that all those runners know, Viola, all those runners are you. Oh God. The six-year-old survives her leg of the race. She said a whole lot of cocksucker motherfuckers. She was inappropriate. She wet the bed. She did a lot of things that were not called pathetic, as we said back in the day, but she made it. Then you pass it on to the 14-year-old Viola who discovered, I want to be an actress. I know that's what I want to do. I don't know how to do it, but I see it. I totally see it. And the 14-year-old passing it on to the 28-year-old who says, oh my God, now I'm a victim of all this trauma. I really am my mom's daughter.

I'm the orchestrator of my own fate. I got to go into therapy. And then that Viola passing it on to the 34-year-old Viola who gets married. And now I have to deal with this marriage. I have to step up. And then that Viola passing it on to the 45-year-old Viola who becomes a mom. And now the 56 year old Viola has a baton. And what the hell do I do with that at this stage? How the hell do I then, it's not even a redefinition of yourself, is how do I make sense of this part of my life with all that I know? And that played a huge part in me writing this book. Is part of the leg of the race that you're in right now, the 56-year-old Viola,

is part of this gift to us of this book? I like the word gift. Yeah, it is. It is. Because I want to show up. I do. I want to show up. I want to say what I want to say. I feel like I've earned it. I'm tired of saying that I wasn't traumatized. I really wasn't. I know how to deal with it. I don't even think about it anymore. I want to be able to say that, but I can't. I want to be able to say that I was traumatized. And sometimes, you know what? Memories during the course of the day, they hit you differently. Sometimes it's a great memory and it's like, you're like, oh, wow, I forgot all about that. And sometimes it's a horrific memory. And for a minute, it levels you. And then you back up again. And then you're still surviving, but they're deathless. They're constantly there. But I feel that once my dad passed, I remember thinking to myself, I wish I had the courage to read the hospice page online.

I read the hospice page once he had passed, and it was horrific. It was real bad. He died of pancreatic cancer, which was a bad one. And he was in a lot of pain. He wasted away to 86 pounds. And I remember once again, not knowing what to do. Who tells you what to do with dying? Nobody.

Everybody's going to die and nobody talks about it. And so I don't know what to do. And so I had to tell him to go. And everybody, you see that in movies, right? When you tell someone to go and it's a beautiful scene, there's swelling music in the back. I couldn't even do it. My mom's crying at his bedside. I didn't know how to do it. But I say all this to say, when my dad was dying, I didn't see anyone yelling at him saying, you did A, B, and C, and I'm not going to forgive you. I didn't hear my dad say anything other than, May Alice, you know that all the things I did to you all those years, you know I'm sorry, right?

You know I'm sorry, May Alice. There was nothing but forgiveness. There was nothing but, at the hospice page, what they say is just hold their hands, make sure their lips are moist, give them water, tell them that they can go. The most simple things exist. And I feel like that sort of defines life. Right? Yeah. That's it. All those things that we carry and we sort of, it's the big weight, right? It's the big weight of being afraid of how people see you. So

you don't say A, B, or C. So you just sort of throw yourself as a sacrifice in relationships, in rooms where you're just sort of a big fat lie showing up. But people love you. They love you. And then you have to go home and in the middle of the night, you say, you know, this is me anyway. In the middle of the night, you're like, I should have said this. I should have said that. I didn't do that. And I didn't do this. And then finally you're asleep. I feel like I've earned the right to introduce the world to the real Viola. I think that I have enough courage to say, this is me, straight no chaser. And I mentioned a lot of things that I'm not going to lie. It took me about nine, 10 months to put in the book. I took it out, put it back in, took it out, put it back in

because I sort of want people to love me. I do. But I sort of want to love myself finally. So I did put it out there. But I think that the book is my elixir. Wow. For me, there's a part of the book that is this incredible invitation invitation to watch the transition of a woman who chooses to disappoint others before she betrays herself. That's a really hard transition for most of us. Tell me, was there a moment, a collection of moments? How did you get to, no matter how this lands, the last thing I'm going to do is betray myself? I don't know if there's one moment, Renee. Yeah, I don't either.

It seemed like a collection of moments. You know what? I'm going to say this, if I were to think about it. People always ask me big questions. Can I just say that? And I'm always like, um, um. The reason why I'm um, um is because I don't want to give a bullshit answer. It's the fame thing that happened. Say more. Okay.

Okay. I think it's like when I went to Africa when I was 25, to have children, who's saying, God, why are you not giving me a child? There's a ritual for that. There's a way of connecting to a larger meaning. They dance, they sing, people join with them and connect with them. We don't have that. Our only sort of ritual and meaning is, for me, going to school, getting a degree, and finding a profession that you love. And so, for me, I wanted to be an actor. And the bullshit is my yearbook. I said, I want to be rich and famous.

I tell people, don't look at that. But I wanted to be an actor. And so then what happens? I hit it. I'm an actor. I get an Oscar nomination. I win an Oscar. I get an Emmy.

I'm like. And all I am is exhausted. Disillusioned, the pressure of being on top, the pressure of sort of dealing with your doppelganger, which is a viola in social media and the viola and the V who's at home. What you begin to see is you're like, this is it? This is it? Are you shitting me? Until you realize that the final step is not success. It's significance. It's transcendence. It's living a life bigger than yourself. But you know that within yourself, but there's no way of figuring that out. That's what I found.

And so then every single day you're showing up, you're doing interviews about movies that you've done, which some of them have been, and I'm grateful for all of them, but for all of them, it's just the standard response. Standard response, someone dresses you, puts makeup on you, you want to stun on the red carpet, you're always nervous, you always have rumblings in your stomach stomach until you figure out how do I exist on this very public plane as me on my terms, how do I live a life of significance? I don't know how to do that. What a question. I don't know. You know what? I don't know how to do that necessarily. I don't know a piece of shit because I didn't say that, or I didn't look a certain way, or I gained 15, 20 pounds, and I'm not a classical beauty, and how do I become one? And why didn't I take that role? And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And maybe I'm a shitty mom. Maybe I'm not. I just didn't want to feel that anymore. And I figured that whatever the meaning is, that's got to be in there somewhere. Some level of self-love has to be in there somewhere. And you know what else has to be in there? I got to have some real friends, man. I got to have my tribe of people who just love me. How do I find that? I want to feel less alone. I want to love myself. And I want other people to feel less alone because it's a really screwed up way to live. So I forget what the question was,

but for me, that's what drove pleasing myself. It's Glennon Doyle says it, when it comes down to disappointing other people, disappointing yourself, choose other people all the time. First of all, that was a revelation to me, but that's what played a part in it. I was tired of going to bed with two hours of the worst dialogue. Yeah. I was tired of it. Hello, I'm Esther Perel, psychotherapist and host of the podcast

Where Should We Begin, which delves into the multiple layers of relationships, mostly romantic. But in this special series, I focus on our relationships with our colleagues, business partners, and managers. Listen in as I talk to co-workers facing their own challenges with one another and get the real work done. Tune into Housework, a special series from Where Should We Begin, sponsored by Klaviyo. leave you. About a year ago, two twin brothers in Wisconsin discovered kind of by accident that

mini golf might be the perfect spectator sport for the TikTok era. Meanwhile, a YouTuber in Brooklyn found himself less interested in tech YouTube and more interested in making coffee. This month on The Verge Cast, we're telling stories about these people who tried to find new ways to make content, new ways to build businesses around that content, and new ways to make content about those businesses. Our series is called How to Make It in the Future, and it's all this month on The Verge Cast, wherever you get podcasts. I want to go back to a conversation we had, I don't know, maybe three or four years ago. And you said something, I think about it, I swear to God, I must think about it every day. You said something about the hurtful criticisms and barbs that come your way as a very public person.

Yes. And that you said that the advice was you need thicker skin. Yeah. And you tried that, but then you realized you couldn't feel anything. I think about that all the time because sometimes when I come off social media, I think I'm not built for this. I can't do it. I'm like, I'm hurt. I feel hurt. I feel like I can feel the barb in my, in my shoulder, in my face, in my stomach. Like I need thicker skin. And then I remember you saying, fuck that. I'm not going to live with thicker skin because then I can't. You said you wanted to have translucent skin. Do you remember that? Yes, I do. I do. I want it. I do want to have translucent skin.

Sometimes I fantasize about having thick skin, but it's not possible. What's the cost? Listen, it's not work. I mean, I remember a day when I was 14 so clearly where my mom and dad were fighting all night and I was sure my father was going to kill my mom. I really was. And I remember I didn't sleep ever. I didn't sleep at all that night. And I had a field trip the next day that I was looking forward to. I went to school. I said, I can't do it. Now I look back on it.

I had all the signs of having PTSD. Yeah. I couldn't speak. I could barely walk. I remember the whole day. I couldn't speak. I could barely walk. I remember the whole day I couldn't speak. And I remember a teacher sitting down with me and saying, Viola. And I remember being sort of on another realm. Viola, what's wrong? Nothing. Viola, come on. You got to go on the field trip. We've been planning this for, and I remember I couldn't hear him because what I was trying to do inside internally was pray my feelings away, pray my heartbreak away, pray my any instinct that I had to reach out and say, help me, because it was weak. Pray away every human

instinct in my body. I felt like I was going to explode my entire childhood. Absolutely made me a bed wetter up until 14. Absolutely played a hand in my fibroids and ultimate infertility. And I think that you said it best too. If you harden yourself so much, yeah, nothing comes in, but also nothing comes out. And I wanted to have love in my life. I did. And I also am an actor and it's sort of a boss ass thing to be vulnerable. It is. That's how you're introduced to anyone's humanity is what they do in private. Those private moments where they kind of feel like I'm only going to do this in the privacy of my room because if I open the door and I show people this, it's going to be my downfall. We relish that as actors.

But then as human beings, we don't want to do it. Yeah. It didn't work for me. All I did was keep secrets. All I did was have a childhood rife with anxiety and pain and trauma. And I didn't want the rest of my life to be like that. It was a choice that I made. Tell me what therapy has meant to you in your life. Alice Walker, I always use this example. Alice Walker in the beginning of Color Purple, which is

great book, has a Stevie Wonder quote, which is, show me how to do what you do, show me how to do it. I needed someone to show me how, now I'm going to cry. I'll go with you. I needed someone to show me how to do it. It's like I said, the first man who ever lived, just that's how you feel that you're sort of thrust into a life where, how the hell are you supposed to live? How are you supposed to talk? How are you supposed to live through trauma? How are you supposed to sort of look in the mirror and say, you know, I feel like I'm a beautiful woman if no one's telling you that, you know?

What tools do you pull out when you don't have a toolkit? A therapist is a guide. It's almost, it's sort of like the original trailblazer, right? Joseph Campbell tells you that when you're going down that's what he says, meaning the labyrinths of life. There are people who've lived a life and they've lived a life with nicks and scrapes and obstacles and lions and dragons, and they've lived a life so they could tell you that they're there at the summit telling you how to live. That's what therapy meant for me. It was someone who lit my path. And my God, there were some gems in there that unlocked my life. And I needed it because I had a life where there was a complete absence of it.

And then it was up to me. And it really is always up to you in the end. Yeah. So- Ask for the help. Yeah. Yeah. I think about how lucky your daughter is.

You tell your story. She knows her story. She knows your story. How important has that been for you as a mom to raise a daughter who knows that owning our story is brave and essential? Well, it's been a process. My daughter is adopted. And by the way, she celebrates that. The day she was adopted, she looked up at the sky and she said, my name is Genesis Nevaeh Tennant and I am adopted.

I love that. But I felt like I had to be liberated from holding on too tight because I feel a lot of times we make our kids an extension of ourselves because we don't want to be seen as a bad mom. My role as a good mother is sort of I want to take to my grave. So sometimes I want to hold on too tight until I realized that for me, it's like I tell her, Genesis, I just want you to have the tools to live better. I remember I told her so clearly, I said, Genesis, whatever you want to know from Mama, I'm here to tell you. But I said, there's some things Mommy doesn't even know the answers to. But I'll just sit with you and I'll hold you. I will.

But some things that I she doesn't know me anything. She owes me absolutely nothing. That if there is any definition of love, the purity of love ever, it's got to be a parent and child when it really hits it, because it's the willingness to completely let them go with love and guidance, knowing that life is, like you say, a shit storm. Can we say it's a shit storm? Yes. But I'll give you my story so that you know that when you're in the midst of it, that you're not feeling anything that anyone else isn't feeling. That's it. No one else. Okay.

So just know that. That's it and the knowing of that here's the thing for me that it would have helped me with it would have helped me with the scourging that's what it felt like it's a scourging and a whipping sort of the idea that there was a better version of me and by, you failed at achieving that. The best version of me is exactly me right now. That's it. God. That's sort of my big discovery. Now, I feel like I have a daughter that sort of already knows that, but I tell her she looks beautiful and she's like,

I know, right? But, um, but, um, yeah. Finding me is such an offering. It's a real offering. I know you didn't, I don't think you signed up for this and we may have talked about this before, but you become quite a teacher in the world. I mean, I see people on your social media pages. I see your willingness to speak out on hard issues. I see your reality checks about the bullshit we believe about ourselves. Does it surprise you that, at least for me, there's so much deep wisdom and teaching in your offerings? Is that, what do you make of that? That's a hard one to embrace because, you know,

it's a hard one to embrace the teacher because I'm like, I need someone to teach me until I realize that the teacher, I don't know if the teacher is the'm like, I need someone to teach me until I realized that the teacher, I don't know if the teacher is the sort of big Buddha in a room that absolutely knows and sees everything and is all powerful and all knowing. I think the teacher is just brave enough to share their truth. That's it. And that's it. I always use the example of, for 30 seconds, I'm going to be the theater geek for 30 seconds. Do it, do it. The story of Agamemnon's son, Orestes.

He kills his mom in Greek tragedy. You learn this in drama school. He kills his mom, Clytemnestra. Why does he kill his mom? Because his mom killed his dad. Why does his mom kill his dad? Because the dad killed his daughter, Iphigenia, because he wanted to win a very so he could strengthen his army. So you have a whole family of the son killing the mom, the mom killing the father, the father killing the daughter. So now Orestes is on trial. And what happens? Most powerful thing happens. As he says, I was wrong. It's on me. And then the furies are released, which are both can be angels and demons. They, the furies that exacted great punishment in Greek tragedy, or they can release

great blessings. And in this instance, the blessings are released because what is it? What happens in that moment is accountability. Oh God. And for me, I feel that the moment you take accountability for your life, the minute you know that at 60 years old, your life is on you, I think you can become a teacher because then I think that that's when the real introspection self-examination happens. I think it's the resistance of the accountability that keeps you in a state of inner turmoil all the time. That's why I think what my dad did at the end of the day, even with his second grade education, even though he was an alcoholic, he was, that the greatest miracle that happened was accountability. That moment that you realize that you are the orchestrator of your own demise and your own blessings. And that simply is it.

In that sense, I can be a teacher. Because I always say that even when someone comes to my house, they want me to be a mentor. I'm like, I got to tell you the truth, but I'm going to love you. I'm going to feed you while I'm telling you the truth. And you can come to my house anytime you want to, but I got to tell you the truth, even if it's hard, but I'm here to hold you. And I'm going to be present enough when I'm living, as I'm living my life, so that I can saturate information and then give it to you. Instead of walking through my life asleep, walking through my life with no receptors in terms of friendships, no revelations, no big sort of aha moments. I'm going to tell you what I've learned. So in that sense, I can be a teacher. I'll accept that.

I'm glad because you've taught me so much. And I think it's interesting when you said walk around with receptors. You know, my sister's in the room because we do the podcast together and I remember telling her one day I can't do it anymore because in order to do my job I walk through the world with all these receptors open and there's too much hard stuff coming in now so I'm just going to shut them down and I could literally hear you in the back of my mind piss me off, but I could literally hear you saying, that thick skin is going to cost you, but give it a shot. And this book, not only is it beautifully written and the storytelling is, again, I have to use the word breathtaking.

I saw all of us in the pages. The way that truth lives in pages. Yeah, it's extraordinary. Yeah, I mean, there were a couple of things in the book that I didn't want to really put out there, but I did. And I'm going to mention one of them because it's in the book. So it's out there. And I find that the part of the book where I talk about my abortion when I was 28 years old, that was the part that I completely took out and then I put back in and then I took out and I put in. And I realized one of the reasons why I put it in is that no one talks about it. No one. I think that sexual assault, which is brutal, is easier for women to talk about than abortion.

And I have to say that I really didn't even know how to write it. And the reason why I didn't know how to write it, really, it's simple. Because I wanted to write what people wanted to hear about that part of my life, not what I experienced, because I felt it made me a weak woman, that I wasn't on top of it, that sort of social media and the public have bogarted certain definitions of being a feminist, of being a strong woman. Yeah. And I'm sorry, it's just an experience that left me traumatized.

I wish it were different. I do. I wish that choices were different. I wish that they were only easy no's and easy yes's, but there's some hard yes's and there's some hard no's and there's some hard choices and there's mistakes and there's regrets. Arthur Miller has a famous quote. He says, maybe what life is all about is living with the right regrets. Oh, yes. That's a hard statement.

It is. But I felt with the abortion, once again, how can you explain ambiguity? How can you explain the relief of being pregnant, loving children, loving life, but having no idea of how to nurture this child, then making the decision and the decision playing out like that, being in a room filled with women screaming at the top of their lungs in pain, are you kidding me? Nobody talks about that. So that's what I have to get through?

To get to make this choice? And then to bleed for two weeks afterwards? I mean, I didn't know what to do with that. But at the same time, what I realize is I would be in the room with so many women who had had abortions, and that's the one story we never shared.

Well, there's a lot of stories we never shared. But that one shut down really quick. So are we really connecting? If I'm always hiding that. And that's a big part of my life. So what happens with that information? Do I hold it in therapy. Sometimes they write their prayers on a piece of paper and put it in a box just because they just want to know that the prayer is going somewhere. I just want to know it's going somewhere.

I do it. I have a box. Yeah. And that's what I did with the abortion story. I just want to know what's going somewhere. I want to release it. I do. But at the same time, I want women to live in shame about something that we all experience and is all a part of the human experience. I think it's a shitty sentence. It is. It's a prison sentence. It is a prison sentence. And so I ended up in a book. Did you pray over this book? Oh, yeah.

Yeah, I just wonder because... I did. I prayed over the book. I can feel it when I read it. I did pray over the book. I do not believe that there is a punishment for truth. I don't. I do not believe it. I think that the only punishment is self-made.

I'm just going to say it, and I'll tell you what's self-made. Because I remember someone actually saying this to me. I'm not mad at them for this too. It just came to mind. I don't want anyone to feel like I'm mad at you for this. It just came to my mind, which is, Viola, when you walk into the room, I want to see you own it. I want to see you owning it. And I thought to myself, oh, wow. Because they said, when you walk in the room, you just walk in the room. I just don't see you just taking up the full space and owning it. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm going to own it. I'm going to own the room. And so then I started walking in the room, like, you know, really walking in the room, putting it in have a b and c going on and we're just you know we go for the greatest writers and

when i realized that doesn't have shit to do with anything i mean that doesn't mean anything first of all i failed miserably with that the only thing you have to do is you have to walk in the room. Oh God, you have to own the room, but you've got to walk into it actually. Like I'm forgetting her name. I'm so sorry, but her website is Lisa to motivate. But Lisa, what she says is you got to go through you to become the new you. God. You know, and I forget the question that you just asked me. I just asked if you prayed over the book, if you were prayerful and intentional. Nobody can hurt me.

No, I'm serious with that. I feel that. I can tell. I do feel that. I do feel that with any journey of even any superhero, you know, there's always that kryptonite that they have to overcome before they get to a position of really tapping into their true

superpower. My superpower is my courage to be me. And all of me. And I know for a fact that a lot of people don't have that. In my 56 years of life, I've seen it rarely. And when I see it, I never forget it. It becomes a portal. I saw it with Miss Tyson. But when I see it, I bask in its magnificence. Everything else is just status-oriented. That's true.

I mean, God, wow. Yes, I basked in the book. That's the feeling I had. That's good. Yeah. I'm glad. That's good. Yeah.

Okay. Are you ready for the rapid fire? Oh, my God. it's good I'm glad it's good yeah okay are you ready for the rapid fire oh my god I'm so bad with rapid fire I feel like I am go ahead

you're gonna crush this this is rapid fire Viola style you're gonna love it okay ready fill in the blank vulnerability is

oh vulnerability is strength power badass Oh, vulnerability is strength, power, badass. You, Viola, are called to be very brave, but you can feel and taste the fear in the back of your throat. It's real. What's the first thing you do? The first thing I do is kiss my daughter and kiss my husband.

What is the last TV show that you binged and loved? Fleabag. Oh, God. So daring. Woo! Okay. Favorite movie. Oh, man. Favorite movie is Network by Sidney Lumet. A concert that you'll never forget. Oh, my God.

I'm going to say Adele. Okay. Oh, God. You'm going to say, I'm going to say Adele. Okay. Oh God. You saw her in concert? I did. Favorite meal? Now that's a hard one. Brene, that's hard because there's no food I don't like. There's no food. Sushi. I'm going to say sushi. I can eat hundreds of dollars of sushi. Yeah. What's on your nightstand? Your book is on my nightstand. Atlas of the Heart. Atlas of the Heart is literally on my nightstand. I love that. Okay. A snapshot of an ordinary moment that brings you really true joy.

Oh, God, that's a hard one. You know what? It's a snapshot of me kissing my daughter's cheek at her baby shower. Yeah. Tell me one thing you're deeply grateful for right now. Oh, I'm deeply grateful, three things. Okay. My mom, that my mom is still alive in here.

I get the love on her. And I'm so grateful for my husband and my daughter. They are the loves of my life. I love them. Okay. We asked you for five songs you can't live without to make a mini mixtape for you. Here's what you gave us. I just smiled when I read it. Okay. And I'll be listening to this mixtape. Here it is. Off the Wall by Michael Jackson. Nice for What by Drake. Summer Breeze, the Isley Brothers, Jimmy Lee by Aretha Franklin, and You Are My Friend by Patti LaBelle.

In one sentence, what does this playlist say about Viola Davis? That she, in one sentence? One sentence. God, actors and writers really try to give me run-on bullshit, three paragraphs. One sentence. Oh, my God. Mm-hmm. That I am everything and all of the things that you know and don't know.

Oh! How's that? know and don't know. Oh. How's that? That's amazing. Oh, okay. That's amazing. That's it. That's it. You crushed the rapid fire.

Yeah. I just want to say thank you for the gift of finding me. Thank you. Your courage is contagious. Thank you. Thank you very much, Brene. And thank you for everything that you've done too. All of your work. I appreciate it. And it's really meant so much to me in my life, Brene. Just want to tell you that. Thank you. Oh, man. My quote for the week is,

it's a boss-ass thing to be vulnerable. That's, yeah, that's sure Viola Davis. I also love how she said the teacher is just the one brave enough to share the truth. I'm going to think about that for probably the rest of my life. Finding Me came out on April 26. You can find it wherever you buy books. It is incredibly rewarding and tough read.

She just goes there and she takes us with her and she holds our hand and we hold hers. And yeah, it's an incredible memoir. Don't forget we have an episode page on bernabrown.com where you can find resources, downloads, transcripts, everything you need. Y'all stay awkward, brave, and kind. Unlocking Us is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group. The music is by Keri Rodriguez and Gina Chavez. Get new episodes as soon as they're published by

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