Unlocking Us with Brené Brown - Part 5 of 6: Brené with Ashley and Barrett for the Summer Sister Series on The Gifts of Imperfection

Episode Date: July 21, 2021

In this second-to-last episode of the Summer Sister Series on The Gifts of Imperfection, I have a couple of in-real-time revelations: namely that I suck at cultivating quality rest and play (a.k.a. Guidepost #7). Thankfully, on the flip side, I’ve gotten pretty good over the years at cultivating calm and stillness (thank you, 5-mile-long daily walks) and letting go of anxiety as a lifestyle (Guidepost #8). We dig in and ask the existential question: What does your ideal restful vacation look like? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, everyone. I'm Brene Brown, and this is Unlocking Us. Yeehaw! We are heading into the hard guidepost for the Brown sisters, I can tell you right now. We are doing guidepost number seven and eight, letting go of exhaustion as a status symbol and productivity as self-worth and cultivating rest and play. And then letting go of anxiety is a lifestyle and cultivating calm and stillness. Do y'all have your inventories out? Yes. Yeah. My lowest one is letting go of anxiety as a lifestyle.

Mine too. Same. Y'all suck. Dang it. You suck. Dang it. You suck. Confirmed. Okay, we're going to take it head on. Let's do it.

That's all we can do. If you've been with us already through some of the sister series, you know that we are keeping it real. All right. We're glad you're here. And we'll figure out how exactly we're going to cultivate more calm and stillness and more play and rest. It seems like a good challenge.

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You call our hotline with questions you can't quite answer on your own. We'll investigate and call you back to tell you what we found. We'll bring you the answers you need every Wednesday starting September 18th. So follow Explain It To Me, presented by Klaviyo. Welcome to our Sister Strong six-week series I'm doing this summer with my sisters, Ashley and Barrett, on the gifts of imperfection. It's so fun to see all the different ways people are joining us. There are in-real-life book clubs, which is really neat to see after such a long time. There are online book clubs. Sisters are getting together to do clubs, sisters are getting together

to do it, friends are getting together to do it. I even know some couples that are going to do it together. Here's what I would do if you're interested in following along. You can use the new 10th anniversary edition of The Gifts of Imperfection, or you can use your original book. Both of them are perfect. I would start before you listen to the podcast. I would take the wholehearted assessment. You can just go to bernabrown.com. It's in the Gifts of Imperfection hub. Totally free. It's really interesting.

It gives you kind of a score on all the guideposts, where your strengths are and where your opportunities for improvement are. Okay. Where do y'all want to start? Let's start with Ashley. Nice way to throw it over, Barrett. Okay. So let's start with the first one, which is exhaustion is a status symbol and productivity is self-worth, letting go of that and cultivating

play and rest. Okay. I have some interesting thoughts about myself on this one, but I want y'all to go first. So where did y'all land on the wholehearted inventory on this one? I got a half a tank. I got like right under half a tank. I got right over half a tank. So I have to be honest with you. Exhaustion is a status symbol and productivity is self-worth. That was my 30s and into my 40s.

I really do not have a lot of that right now. I don't know that I have a lot of that either, but I also don't have a great rest and play practice. That's so, okay. Okay, let's just stop right here. This is such an important learning for this book because wholeheartedness is not just the absence of the stuff that gets in the way.

It's the cultivation and building the practices of the things on the other side of that continuum. So when I first took this wholehearted inventory before we did the series right now, I was pissed off because I was like, I don't think I see exhaustion as a status symbol. When people tell me I haven't slept in days, I'm not like, oh man, you're a badass.

I'm like, Jesus, I hope you're not driving because you're danger to all of us on the road. Like, you know, I don't think that anymore. And I don't think productivity is self-worth either, but I have not fully developed. And I have developed rest. Wait, are you looking at me with suspect? No.

Did you say you developed rest? I have developed rest. I think you've always had rest. Yeah. But is rest the same thing as sleep? I don't think so. Because I sleep eight to nine hours a night. No question. So I'm eight to nine hours a night. No question.

So I'm not good at rest or play. Okay. Just for the record, I figured this out in real time. I suck at both. Okay. Glad y'all could watch that in real time. It was really impressive. Okay.

So what about you, Ashley? Have you done a good job letting go of those two or where are you? Yeah. I mean, I think if I'm using exhaustion as a status symbol, it's really from resentment or I think it's just mostly from resentment. Again. Like proving? Not proving, more just like maybe less proving and more affirmation. Yeah. Wanting affirmation.

Yeah. Or wanting like. Like, God, I work my ass off and no one says shit to me. Okay. Yeah. But I feel like I've been doing that less and less and I don't have a great practice at all for rest and play. Are we just doing that one now? Yeah, let's just stick to that one right now, this continuum.

I mean, I feel like I'm good at rest because I rest a lot, but it's not good rest. It's numbing rest. Yeah. Soul-sucking TV rest. Yeah, not the kind that gives back. Right. There's a great quote in here that says, let me see if I can find it.

Y'all hang on with me while I flip through my book. Because does self-care come in rest and play? Yeah. Suck at that. I suck at that too. I think it's Jennifer Loudon that says, when we're talking about the difference between comfort and she said, two whole bars

of chocolate can be numbing, where one bite of delicious chocolate that you love can bring comfort. You really have to decide where do you cross the line between comfort and numbing? Yeah. What gives back to you? Sometimes I can watch a movie and it gives back so much to me. Just like an old rom-com or something that I love. And sometimes I can sit in front of the television for seven hours and feel like shit when I'm done.

Yeah. Like the other night I was like, I'm just going to watch The Friends Reunion. And it brought me so much joy. Probably just because it connected me to a time in my life that I loved that episode. You knew what night it was going to be on. It wasn't Netflix. Yeah. It was so fun. So that brought me joy. But I can sit on a couch and watch TV all day on a Saturday and then be like, I cannot believe I wasted my whole effing day on this. Yeah. Oh my God, me too. You too? You know what? I'm learning about you too,

Ashley, just listening to the Must See TV, and I remember how much you love that, and the same concerts and singing at church. You really love, Durkheim called it collective effervescence. You really loved being in a collective connection in joy. Because you remember Must See TV and Friends? You couldn't wait to watch it with people or call each other afterwards or watch it together or talk about it at work the whole next day. Yep. There was a lot of connection and collective effervescence in that. Yeah, like I had a lot of resentment, aka envy, with some of these new HBO series because I'm just really not a fan of the super brutal kind of things.

But it was the talk of the office for a long time. Game of Thrones. Even have a funny thing about Game of Thrones, but not only did I not feel connected, I felt like an outsider because I was like, I don't want to watch those shows. They're so violent. I wanted to watch them, but I just couldn't.

Yeah, I couldn't watch it either. Lauren and I came up with our own little fake miniseries that we talked about. Was it Game of Drones? Yeah. Because, I mean, seriously, every week, it was a whole conversation around the bar. But that's a connection builder for people to watch that and have that shared foundation. Yeah.

It's what we're doing with the book, hopefully, with people listening. Oh, totally. So this is going to be interesting. This is a family of origin, shame, deep dive. Are you ready? Bring it. Ashley's taking a deep dive. Are you ready? Bring it. Ashley's taking a deep breath. She's not sure.

And my permission slip is. No, let's go. I think for me, I know y'all are going to just react to this, but I have such a shame trigger around being lazy. Yeah. So say more about how that shows up for you. That's pretty good. Yeah, that was, I'm impressed. Thank y'all. That was Barrett, by the way, not therapist.

I think that, and I write about this a lot. I think that sometimes I'll be watching TV when Steve gets home with Charlie and I'll turn off real quick and jump up and get productive. And then I'll be really shitty towards Steve. He'll be like, hey, babe. I'm like, whatever. He's like, what'd I do? I'm like, nothing. I have no idea what you're talking about. So that answers that question. Yeah. And then I'll say to him now, because I have to do it because my therapist makes me, but I'd be like, I was watching TV and I was in the middle of this thing and then you got home and I jumped up and pretended like I was kidding. He's like, why would you do that? And I was like, because I don't want you to think I'm lazy. And he's like, oh my God,

I want you to go to Workaholics Anonymous. I don't think you're lazy. He's like, I don't understand what you're talking about. And sitting down, I don't know if y'all remember this or not, and just for those listening, this is a normal family pattern we have where Ashley and Barrett will ask me questions like, well, what was this like growing up? Because they don't remember. Yeah. But in our family growing up, if mom was ever sitting down doing something when dad got home, it was problematic. Jeez. it was problematic. In fact, one of the things that was completely outlawed in our house was reading books. You could not just sit down and read. It was not industrious. It was not productive. And both mom and dad, our dad would have a surgery on Thursday and be back at work on Friday. Our mom would get sick and bring a bag and throw up and still lead the Girl Scout group.

There was a lot of the combination of shame, probably some class shame. Now we are in this upper middle class suburban thing, but came from poverty and working class combo. So it was a combination of shame around that and a combination of zero tolerance for weakness. And watching TV or reading a book or self-care, we didn't have the word self-care back then, but somebody would have tied it to a target and blown the shit out of it with a shotgun had we had that term. Yeah, that would not have been good. So I think that's the lazy thing for me. Even if I'm writing a book and I'm writing 20 hours a day, putting out a book in three or four

months, I would not want someone to know I was watching television. I don't really have that. Do y'all have that? No, I definitely don't have that. I don't think y'all have that. I have the like jump up and flip the TV off, but that's more about me feeling like I need to be present when they get home and check in. But I'm not going to jump up and start acting like I'm doing something else.

Yeah. So yours is about just being connected with them when they get home and not distracted. Yeah. And almost like I can feel guilty for just wanting my own space and my own time to watch whatever I want to watch. So that's more for me about what it's about. It's just that. So my daughter will just jump on the couch and start watching it with me. And then four hours later,

we'll be like, we should probably get up. But then I can sometimes get up and be a complete asshole because all the things that I wanted to do that day have now not gotten done. The things that set me up for success, groceries, stuff like that. I can do that too. The things that set me up for success, groceries, laundry, stuff like that. I can do that too. Yeah, I can do that too. But yeah, I can do that too.

Yeah, I definitely have that thing. Do you remember dad, mom resting? No. Ever? I don't really remember a lot from that time, but I see it now with dad and I saw it with mom when I feel like we were older. Well, not even really. I don't think she rested. She was 80 hours a week. She was working. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's a hard shame trigger to get over. God, now thinking about it too, even dad, he's either falling asleep in his chair or he's working. They're sleeping or working. Those are the two speeds. And some of that's this German-American, really industrious. And then I think it's also waiting tables for, I mean, seriously, for seven years. And the motto was, if you've got time to lean, you've got time to clean. I would just not make it in that industry. Yes, I think that's a hard one. That's hard.

So rest in place. So interesting story. Let's tell the story about Stuart Brown, because I think we love him. Let me see if I can find it in the book. I'm just curious, what would super intentional rest look like? I'm not clear clear shall we survey people i've done it before i can't remember what it was like

you know when we were at the lake the other day after graduation and we were just all on the couch watching pickleball and it was like filling our cups we were laughing and talking that's true that was fun that was amazing yeah that was no we didn't even clean the kitchen right after lunch because the pickleball had already started yeah there was some serious pickleball on that was fun yeah that was fun and that was great i left restored me too even on vacation like even on this vacation I just got back from, I'm like, I need to get up. I need to hike.

I need to be one with the mountain. I need to do all these things. And like, literally, I would just tell y'all, because I mean- Because no one else is supposed to. No, it's just the three of us. And I see Bob and Laura, but they're on our side. After that first hike, I was like, fuck this mountain stuff, man. I was like, first of all, it's like at 8,000 feet. And then I don't know how the non-Texans invented hiking, but it was uphill both ways. When I was unpacking last night, Steve goes, where are your hiking boots? And I was like, I threw them away.

I'm not bringing them home. I was like, I put them in a little pile that said Goodwill. I was literally like, but I can't not hike because you know. Okay, here's a question for both of y'all.

What is your absolute restful vacation look like? I'm alone. Let's start with wherever I am on my bus. I don't mean to be rude to y'all, but my feelings are really hurt. No, not mine. Seriously, when we travel, we'll get done with an event. It'll be like 3 o'clock in the afternoon. She'll be like, goodnight.

Okay, goodnight. It's so different because when we all travel, it's like y'all go into each other's room and y'all order room service together and then y'all eat together. The first time Barrett and I traveled for work together, Barrett was like, I'm going to get my pajamas. I'll be over in 10. Yeah, she's like, I'm going to put my pajamas pajamas on i'll come over in just a couple minutes and then we can look

at the room service menu i was like why and she's like did you want to hang out together i'm like uh-uh no i don't and she's like so if i could see you till tomorrow morning and i was like yeah good night goodbye there is that often at like 8.30 or 9. Hey, do you like ironing? I don't even own an iron. Who irons? Nobody but Barrett. I was running around the other day. She's like, we got to stop and buy an iron.

You think Barrett's busy? She's never. Hey, look, I do like to iron. That's some of your compulsive stuff, right? Chop and iron. Yeah. What's that say about me, therapist? So I don't know what my ideal vacation would be, but even when we go to Disney, I want to get up, hit the parks, come back, lay around, have some lunch, get back up, go to the parks.

I like to rest when I'm on vacation. But what is a restful vacation? If you were just trying to get away to fill your own cup up, what would that be? I would have to say this. I'm going to have alone time. Yeah. But probably not go alone, but I'm going to have a lot of alone time. I'm going to have no pressure to do things.

And I am going to be at my house. Staycation. Yeah, it's a staycation because I'm going to have at my house. Staycation. Yeah, it's a staycation because I'm going to have access to all my stuff. And then what happens is that's probably Steve's too. But I'm going to feel pressure that we go do everything and see everything. And I have my spreadsheet and I'm going to have my list. Oh, my God, Laura Mays, I'm looking at you through this booth. Oh, my God.

Laura Mays has a 24-page spreadsheet for vacationing. Yes, she does. But she has to meet a lot of people's needs. And I would not have to meet anybody's needs but my own. Yeah. Ashley? I don't know. I'm stuck.

Barrett? Yeah, Barrett. Ask her the question. I think it was when we first started the podcast and all the crew had gone to Austin to quarantine. And we were doing some podcast recordings in our brand new studio that we never got to use yet. And Renee and I had this real conversation because I think y'all had been there for a couple of days. And I was like, OK, go pack. I'm ready to get to Austin. She's like, no, we should go tomorrow. Do you remember this? And I was like, you can come tomorrow. I'm going to go today. But she was like,

I figured out that what actually fills me up is being with everyone. I love to be in the chaos and the mess and the, a lot of things happening and a lot of people. I love that. It fills me up. And most of the time I can come back feeling rested. So I would say I like the big family vacations. Yeah, I like the lake. Oh, me too. I mean, I love the lake because everybody can do their own thing. You can go walking.

You can go swimming. You can go on the boat when you want to go on the boat. You don't have to join the boat rides, but you can. The cooking is always fun together because we're either grilling or making food. So I do. I love the lake. It fills me up. I would say that wherever I go on this vacation, I'll think about it. It does not include a flight. Are you that anxious of a flyer? I just, I don't like airports. I don't like people that close to me.

Yeah, I get it. I could do it at a concert, but not on a flight. Yeah, maybe you could just sing your way through the airport with people. I bet they wouldn't sit by me. The hills are alive. You know, it's funny. I'm just having this terrible realization, but I'll share it since it's just the three of us. I think two of my hardest things are asking for what I need and kind of just, I'm really bad at asking for what I need.

I'm really good at being resentful toward people for not getting it, but I'm not good at asking for what I need. But I think the other thing is, and y'all know this probably, and it was probably just because of birth order and how we were raised, but I have that deep kind of crucible wound around not belonging in our family. And so when everyone's at the lake and everyone's going to go tubing or everyone's going to go skiing, I don't want to. I want to sit back and read in a rocking chair, but that triggers all my belonging stuff. And then so I force myself to go out with y'all

and then I'm resentful. So it's really hard. I don't want to be the person. Can you imagine in our family growing up being the person that's not going to go tubing or doing something death-defying, but who's going to stay back and read or take a nap? Your book would have probably been in the lake.

Yeah, that would just not have been acceptable. So I think that's where I really struggle. I think it all goes back to that. I mean, everything we're talking about in this whole episode, this whole series goes back to the wholeheartedness, being worthy of love and belonging, no matter what your choices are. But I think that's where I get really stuck. Everybody's like, let's go tubing. And so then what I'll do is y'all go, I'll clean up the kitchen.

Because I don't really want to go. Sometimes I want to go, but I don't want to go very often. Yeah. Yeah. What software do you use at work? The answer to that question is probably more complicated than you want it to be. The average US company deploys more than 100 apps, and ideas about the work we do can be radically changed by the tools we use to do it. So what is enterprise software anyway? What is productivity software? How will AI affect

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with one another and get the real work done. Tune into Howwork, a special series from Where Should We Begin, sponsored by Klaviyo. There was the trauma y'all grew up and there was the level of trauma I grew up with the stuff like the boating and stuff, where not only was I trying to protect myself, I was trying to protect y'all from those kinds of things. And so I do think it's really hard to ask for what you need and hear yourself in that noise. Shit. Do you know what I mean? Yes.

Because really and truly for me, I'm an introvert. We were not allowed to be introverted growing up. You know that. I remember the first time, I remember being younger than Gabby for sure. I was probably five when dad said, you look at the waiter and order your own food or you won't eat. It was just like this search yourself be. And so I think introversion was not allowed.

And I even struggle with it as a parent. I even find myself reacting how they reacted when Charlie or Ellen put alone time on their Christmas lists. What do you want? I want, you know, PlayStation 3 and alone time. And they're not unrelated, probably. But, you know, but I think that stuff is hard. So can I ask a question? What would support look like in that moment when a crew's going out on the boat and you're like i want to read i don't know i think probably just saying it out loud right now with y'all will be different yeah because now i've said it and it's like that unsaid thing yeah so now y'all will probably go does that what you better not do is drill me on it but if you say

like does that sound fun yeah and i say you say, you know, it does sound fun. Just stop there. Don't be like, does it really sound fun? Because we know when we record that podcast, I'll be like, fuck you. But I think if you just check in with me, I think that's good. But I think Steve and I have to really worry because Steve just wants to be on the boat, on the boat, on the boat, on the boat, you know? And so do the kids.

Yeah. Well, so there are times that I don't want to go on the boat. Oh, me too. But I go because I feel like I'm going to be like judged as a bad mom not out there watching her kid because steve's there watching charlie barrett's there watching gabby and i'm handing amaya off on someone so i make up stories too that i'm like oh i'm just gonna pass my on to someone else oh i'm on safety patrol i'm like i better fucking go because I'm the ski wire, the tuber watcher while Steve's driving.

And Frankie does it too. But I always feel like I have to be on safety patrol. But do you ever not want to go, but you go because you want to keep everybody safe? Yes. That's going to be an empty boat moving forward if we keep doing our work. We'll be like... We should just be like, we need to go to

ATB. Y'all go head on out. I don't think that counts as doing our work. We'll be like. We should just be like, we need to go to ATB. Y'all go head on out. I don't think that counts as doing our work. And then we can play sequins and cards. Yeah. By yourselves. Because I'll be in my room reading. I'll play with Barrett. Do you want to play cards?

So let's just make a pact that we'll just ask for exactly what we need. Yeah. Because isn't that crazy? Yeah. It's a weird. That we haven't talked about that. Y'all may hear this out in the public and you may not. We don't know. I'm just gonna have to decide

whether this is ready for prime time. I will have to say that one thing that if we're just gonna talk so openly about the boat, I'm gonna say, I'm so grateful that Frank and Steve are so safe. And it's not like we felt like we were growing up on the boat. So I do want to just stop and share some gratitude because our kids have had very different boating experiences than we have. And I just want to say I'm grateful for that, too.

Oh, yeah. Our boating experiences did not look like our kids. No, I'm grateful for that too. Oh yeah. Our brooding experience just did not look like our kids. No, I'm really grateful. And Steve doesn't think the war stories are funny. We don't really tell them as war stories anymore. No, we don't. But even when dad tells them, he doesn't think they're funny because he just is like, yeah, I'm living with the oldest of this trauma survivor thing. Yeah. But I still see it all the time. I still see families and people that do it all the time. Just the other day when I was somewhere out in public for the first time, a kid was doing something and a parent jumped behind him and scared the shit out of him. The kids started crying. All the parents were laughing. And I was just like, let me fast

forward this to you, for you. Where are they in birth order? I can tell you exactly how much therapy is going to cost and how long it's going to take. Got out of Maya's games. I feel like sometimes I should take my business cards. At any sporting event. Ashley therapist. You can see me now and then you can send your kids to me when they quit sports because, you know. Just being a six on the Enneagram, I do appreciate the level of pushing outside of their comfort zone too. Yeah. Because I love that too. Sometimes I just have to sit back with my mouth shut and let them push, especially my daughter, a little bit. And I'm grateful for that.

Yeah, I think it's healthy pushing. Yeah, healthy. I don't think anyone ever has to do anything that they're scared of. Yeah, it's choice. They're uncomfortable. They have to push past some of their comfort sometimes, but they're never afraid. I wish maybe we could put this video on the episode page. But remember that little kid that was up on the top of the ski slope?

Oh, yes. We'll put this video. I hate that video. Oh. Oh, I love that video. Oh, I show that video when I do trainings. I know. Yeah, we used to, too. It's so good because it was the kid's choice. Well, y show that video when I do trainings. I know. Yeah, we used to, too.

It's so good because it was the kid's choice. Well, y'all should put it out there. I mean, people will watch it if they're interested. Good boundary there. I'll fast forward. Should we put like a trigger warning on this little video? All right. Last session of our Super Sister Summer sing-along therapy work will be next week.

Let me sign off in my appropriate way. So our final episode is next week. Really appreciate you joining us. This has been good and hard and fun and important, I think. Last episode next week. Stay awkward, brave, and kind. Unlocking Us is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group. The music is by Keri Rodriguez and Gina Chavez. Get new episodes as soon as they're published by following Unlocking Us on your favorite podcast app. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

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