Unlonely with Dr. Jody Carrington - How Not to Die Alone - Logan Ury

Episode Date: December 5, 2024

Some relationships feel like a game of emotional tag—you’re either chasing or being chased. This week, Jody sits down with Logan Ury, author of How Not to Die Alone, to untangle the complexities of attachment styles, from the anxious-avoidant loop to the quest for secure connections. They unpack the psychology of modern dating, the burnout of endless swipes, and why a little self-awareness goes a long way. Logan shares wisdom on crafting dating profiles that spark conversation and her upcoming Netflix series, The Later Daters, highlighting love stories for those over 55. Whether you’re navigating breakups, parenting, or making the first move, this episode is a roadmap to more fulfilling relationships—one mindful connection at a time.Logan Ury is a behavioural scientist turned dating coach and the author of the bestselling book How to Not Die Alone: The Surprising Science That Will Help You Find Love. She works as Hinge’s Director of Relationship Science, conducting research on modern dating. She also writes the popular weekly newsletter — Logan's Love Letter.Find Logan on Instagram:@loganury Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton.

Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. at the beginning of every episode there will always be time for an acknowledgement you know the more we do this people ask why do you have to do the acknowledgement and every episode. I got to tell you, I've never been more grateful for being able to raise my babies on a land where so much sacrifice was made. And I think what's really critical in this process is that the ask is just that we don't forget. So the importance of saying these words at the beginning of every episode will always be of utmost importance to me and this team. So everything that we created here today for you happened on Treaty 7 land, which is now known as the center part of the province of Alberta. It is home of the Blackfoot Confederacy, which is made up of the Siksika, the Kainai, the Pekinni, the Tatina First Nation, the Stony Nakota First Nation, and the Métis Nation Region

Three. Our job, our job as humans is to simply acknowledge each other. That's how we do better, be better, and stay connected to the good. Welcome back. Welcome in everybody to the Unlonely Podcast. This episode is with my dear friend, a phenom named Logan Ury. And we met first of all, when we were at a conference speaking together, we both were sitting at a table awkwardly introducing each other because we didn't know. And the more I learned about her, I was like, you are the human who wrote How Not to Die Alone, the surprising science that will help you find love. Logan has really done some beautiful work in this dating space. And I think there has been no script, first of all, on how to date online, how to engage

in relationships in this very lonely world. And I would say of all the people that I've met in this space, Logan has created this deep, deep understanding that as humans, we all desire connection, but we need a different way of doing it when we start online. And she comes to the table with so much chops. She works as Hinge's director of relationship science. So if you don't know, Hinge is one of the world's most prominent dating app, and she conducts research on modern dating. She also writes a popular weekly newsletter. It's called Logan's Love Letter. And she studied psychology at Harvard and ran Google's behavioral science team, something called the Irrational Lab. She currently lives in the Bay Area in the US with her husband, Scott, and her new baby girl. And this episode for me

was such a whirlwind. It's short, it's 40 minutes, and it is really about the spectrum, how to get started. What do you want to think about in a profile? If you're already dating somebody, what does that mean? If already dating somebody, what does that mean? If you're married, what does that mean? If you are dating the second or third or fifth time around because you've lost your partner or you're divorced or you're starting again, we touch on it all. She's so articulate and profound.

I hope you love it as much as I do. okay sweet ones buckle up because um this conversation is something that i think has been on the minds mostly of everybody I talk to in my practice. Certainly a lot of people right now. The name of the game in this human race is always about relationship. And I don't know that I have met a more insightful, profound human who understands not only how relationships start, which is obviously the trickiest part of the whole game. Actually, that's not true. It's keeping them together. And she happens to know a little bit about that,

all of those things. Like psychology at Harvard, you ran Google's behavior science team, the Irrational Lab. You are a new mom. You are a goddamn rock star. Logan Urie, come on, come on. I mean, this is the first time we've seen each other since we

met the first time and fell in love. Yay. Jodi, so great to see you. I love to see you shine since we met earlier this year. And yeah, we really fell in love at the Real Love Ready conference that we went to in Vancouver. And yeah, I just really admire your work. I love what you're putting out into the world. And I'm super happy to be here with your listeners. Oh, well, they honestly are too. So happy with you because you're going to teach them everything right now. Your book, How Not to Die Alone.

I remember the first time we met and you were like, you know, I didn't, you didn't know, we didn't know who each other were for many reasons. And so I was like, oh, cool. Like you are a dating person. Nice. Like what have you written anything? And you're like, yes, how not to die alone. I was like, you are the author of how not to die alone. Listen, if you're in the dating world, I don't care if you've

been dating, you've been around a few times. It doesn't matter to me. The surprising science that will help you find love is the epitome of this beautiful book that you have just now blown into this most remarkable career. And so I want to start with this question. You know, what do you get asked the most? What is the most burning question about, you know, how not to die alone? Why are people so scared to die alone? Yeah.

So a question that I get a lot is, what is the biggest mistake that people make when it comes to dating? And I really do love to think about the early stages of dating and how do you decide who to be with? My background is a combination of relationship science, so the study of how we fall in love,

and behavioral science, the study of how we make decisions. And so I really like to apply the two and think about how do we make decisions about who to be with. And so one of the biggest mistakes that people make in dating is that they think they know what they want, but they're wrong. They go after this type that they've been pursuing for years. And it's often just to use gender terms. It's often a woman who loves the chase and wants to go after a guy who's not interested in her. And I can speak from experience, I was totally this person, and they're more anxiously attached. And they're like, well,

if he rejects me, he must be better than me, let me convince him to be with me. And so they're constantly chasing after this guy who's sometimes interested, sometimes not, and he's hot and cold. And instead, when you can make that switch, like I did to find a secure person, you realize, oh, my so called type wasn't making me very happy. And the type of person who I should be with long term is someone who's secure, who makes me feel desired, who makes me feel good about myself. And so I really work with my coaching clients to help them understand, throw out your type, date like a scientist and really figure out who you should actually be with based on who will make you happiest long term. Oh, I love that. And when

we start to talk about secure attachment, and, you know, I love that part of your book where we really dive into the idea because I think what we tend to be attracted to is the sexiest, the, the, the people who are sort of like exciting and all those things, which is, you know, what you say, this type that we tend to look for define for me what a secure person is, right? We, I use this language all the time, right? But what is, what does that mean? How do I know somebody's secure? Yes. Should I give your listeners an attachment 101 or do you feel like they know it? Oh, no. You take her from the top, honey. Attachment 101.

There's honestly, there's so much about this on TikTok, some good, some bad, but I will give you a little intro. And so in general, we know that people are usually in one of three attachment styles. So somebody who's anxiously attached, they want to be in constant communication. They want to hear from you. They want to be made to feel like you're thinking of them and that you're connected. And if they don't hear from you, they can get activated. And what they'll do is they'll have protest behavior, like call you a bunch of times, try to reconnect, maybe then get mad and turn their phone off. The people who are avoidant attach their story of love is if I get too close to

somebody, they're going to smother me. And so when somebody gets close, they push you away. And this kind of person might be someone where you sleep over their house on Saturday night, and suddenly they're like, so when can I call you an Uber? And for them, it's about avoiding being smothered, and they want to have a lot of independence. And then people who are securely attached, they have a healthy balance between independence and interdependence and they want to spend time with you and time alone. And what happens is that a lot of anxious people and avoidant people end up dating each other in what's known as the anxious avoidant loop. And in that case, the anxious person is saying, my story of love is I chase and chase and

chase. And if you're avoidant, your story of love is I chase and chase and chase. And if you're avoidant, your story of love is somebody chases me and I get smothered and I pull away. When those people date each other, they reinforce these bad habits. And it's not until one of them either can become more secure themselves or breaks out of this and dates a secure person that they actually realize, oh, love doesn't have to be this chase and retreat pattern. It can actually be more of something where both of you choose to spend time together, choose to spend time alone. There's not as much of this protest behavior.

And so if you're looking for a secure partner and you haven't dated one before, you might say, oh, this feels a little boring. Where's that feeling of the chase? Or where's the point where I usually get scared and back off? Because it's a completely different dynamic. But those are the relationships that we know from the research are the happiest, they have the most sex, and they're the most successful long term. Oh, I love that. And here's the interesting thing, right? When you talk about, you can kind of correct your pattern. Because if I'm a listener and I'm sitting here today going like, holy shit, I'm the anxious person or, oh my God, I'm ultimately the avoider.

Can this change over time? You know, based, and again, how does that have to change? What has to happen for me to develop into a more secure human? Yeah. So we know that about 25% of the population is anxious, 25% are avoidant, and 50% are securely attached. But if you're out there dating, you'll say, securely attached, 50%, that's not what I see.

And that's true because a lot of securely attached people partner off and are no longer in the dating pool. So the dating pool is a lot of people who are anxious and avoidant dating each other. We do know that people can become more secure themselves. And so those are things like understanding your triggers. Okay. If you're anxiously attached and you know that you tend to get triggered when someone's out of touch, can you communicate with your partner early on? Hey, can you send me a 10 second text when you land? Because that'll make me feel better. Or can you work on distracting yourself? If you don't get that text, can you

call another friend? Can you go for a walk? Can you tell yourself disconfirming evidence? So things like, I know that they're not abandoning me, they just are on a flight. And can I give myself a pep talk to feel better? And for the avoided people, you can do things like set boundaries in advance, understand that nobody's a mind reader, and you have to ask for space when you need it. And so you can do that to become more secure over time. Or you can also do what I did, which is I think in some ways, I became more secure, but I also found a secure partner. And I feel like that person really taught me how to be in a secure relationship. And so one of my strongest memories around this is that I had friends visiting from out of town and I wanted my husband to spend time with them. But we were just boyfriend and girlfriend at the time.

And I was texting him and he wasn't responding back. And I was walking down the streets of San Francisco, poking angrily at my phone about how he wasn't doing this and he wasn't doing that. And then I expected that we would get into a fight. And that's what I was gearing up for. But instead, he totally flipped the script and said it sounds like you're upset we should talk in person and this was a completely different experience he didn't want to fight he wanted to de-escalate the situation and it was in moments like that which I really attribute to the fact that his mom's a therapist where he really helped me understand things don't

have to be that sort of act out protest behavior experience. And so through being with the secure partner, I learned how to create a secure relationship for the first time. Okay, I love that. And so when you your husband, Scott, now, you know, when you talk about his mom's a therapist, I'd like to really sort of get into that a little bit. Because the question is, how do we become anxious? How do we become? And as a psychologist, people ask me this all the time, does it always come back to your childhood? Yes. The idea is how we learn those attachment styles often has a lot to do with how we were loved, or how we had to get love or how secure those relationships were around us. Is that, you know, give me some more insight into how those relationships get developed. So the origin of the attachment theory research,

as I'm sure you know, dates back to the 60s with people like John Bowlby, who were looking at how kids responded to their primary caregiver. And of course, at that time, it was mostly parents. And so they did this experiment called the strange situation where they basically had babies in a lab. And what they would do is they would have the mom and the baby come into the lab and the mom would leave the room and they would see how the baby responded. So in some situations, the baby was very upset. Even when the mom walked back in, the baby was very upset. That was the anxiously attached baby. In some situations, the baby was upset upset that was the anxiously attached baby in some situations the baby was upset when the mom left and then when the mom came back in the baby was soothed by the mom those were the

secure babies and in some situations the baby was upset the mom walked back in and the baby pretended it wasn't upset but we knew that it still was based on its biometrics and so those were the avoidant babies and so we do have this research originating with mother child relationships. That being said, I feel like I, you know, especially as a new mom, want to be conscious of things like blaming our moms for everything. And so I have heard that there are genetic components to attachment. For example, if you were in a nomadic tribe, it was helpful to have some people who are very concerned with who did we leave behind? Who are we not talking to? Who hasn't been here? That

anxious attachment could actually help the tribe remember who's missing. And so yes, there is the origin story from 60 years ago that has to do with parental relationships. But I do try to be a little cautious about just saying like, if you're not happy in love, blame your mom, because I feel like that can be a little destructive. What's your view on that stuff? I think you're probably more informed than I am about the psychological piece. You know what I love about just your take on it and how you use it in the book is to really simplify it. I mean, Bowlby, Ainsworth, all of the people who started this stuff made it so complex. And I think it gets exhausting because we try to put ourselves into those categories right I am anxious I am avoidant not always and oftentimes it depends on the relationships in which you interact with which

is I think to your point about in your book it's so brilliant start to pay close attention to how you feel when you are with certain people. What do they evoke in you? And oftentimes people will sort of confirm with you in their relationship with them that this feels secure. You get it. And they won't get it all the time because nobody's fucking magic. If you're waiting for magic, because I guess here's my question. My first question to you is always, you know, the title of your book just catches me all the time. But why are people so scared to die alone? It seems like an obvious question. But tell me from your perspective, why are people so scared to be alone? Yeah, so you know, the book's title,

How to Not Die Alone is a bit tongue in cheek, I wanted it to be something that matched my sense of humor, I wanted readers to get a sense that this was a bit tough love and a bit surprising. And I feel like it's done that. Sometimes people say to me, I'm fine dying alone, everyone dies alone. And why are you telling people that they can't die alone. And to be clear, if people don't want to be in a relationship, that's perfectly fine. It's kind of like if I wrote a book called how to do French cooking, I'm not saying everyone needs to do French cooking, but if you want to, you can read this book. And so my book is really for people who are saying, I am single and I don't want to be, I want to be in a relationship. Please give me a plan to help

me understand the patterns of mine that are holding me back. And then give me a plan for overcoming those patterns. Got it. Got it. And when you start to talk about this sort of looking for the security in people, I really love this statement that you say in your book, stop confusing secure for boring. Can you expand that for me a little bit? Yeah. So I was talking about the anxious avoidant loop. A lot of times, if you have been in that kind of loop, then especially if you're the anxious person, you feel like there's a lot of excitement to the chase. So at first I like this woman and I think she's interested in me and I get really excited and then she pulls away and suddenly the excitement goes up. The adrenaline goes up. I feel like there's so much chemistry and I'm like, will she

or won't she? I can't wait. And there's really a lot of excitement because you don't know how they feel about you. And when you don't know what the outcome will be, that creates a lot of excitement because it's kind of like being in a slot machine. If I pull the lever, am I going to win or not? And so sort of what's called that unexpected reward creates a lot of excitement and adrenaline for us. Compare that to the experience

of dating a secure person. A secure person does things like says, hey, this was a really great date. I want to see you again. Or they're really clear. I'm traveling for the next week, but I'm really interested. If you don't hear from me, don't take it personally. Let's make plans when we get back. Do you want to meet my friends and family? They are more upfront about how they feel about you. And while that's something that I train my coaching clients to look for, in the beginning, they say, he's boring. He's predictable. He's too expected.

And so you have to retrain your brain from that's boring to that's reliable and reliability and somebody who makes you feel safe. That's what you want in a long-term relationship. I got it. And you know, when you, when you get into this place of getting into a relationship with somebody, but you start, you know, oftentimes these days, so much has changed in how we meet people, even from, you know, our generation in one generation, right? This online world, being able to date online, the apps, I know you're very familiar with this app space. What do people get wrong about the dating world these days?

Yeah, I mean, there's so many things. I think one of the big ones is the first one that I talked about around the type. I also think that a lot of people focus on quantity over quality. And so I work at Hinge and one of the features that we've just come out with that I think is really cool is your term limits. So basically what this is, is that a lot of people are feeling dating burnout. They're not excited about dating. They feel overwhelmed. It's just not working out for them. And so we did some research and we asked people, what is the number one thing causing you dating burnout? And a very common answer is a lack of responsiveness.

So I match with somebody and then they don't respond to my message and it doesn't go anywhere. And this feeling of like starting and stopping over and over again has been really frustrating for people. And so based on this, Hinge developed this new feature where you can only have eight conversations at a time where it's your turn to respond to the person. And so once you reach that limit, you need to either start responding to those people or close out those conversations, or you can't match with anyone else. And so it's really a bold technique to say, where's my husband, maybe your husband is hiding in your matches, but you haven't

met him because you just keep matching with more and more people. Instead, slow down, respond to these people, look at each match and say, do I want to go out with them? Great, let's get to a date. Am I not interested? Great, close out the conversation. But it's really a way of creating a behavioral nudge that keeps you focused and says, I'm not in a popularity contest to get as many matches as possible. I'm actually here to meet someone. And so Hinge has this feature that helps you focus. Oh, I love that. And there's so many things that I've learned from you. And I remember, you know, I love how him sets that up. The other thing that I really loved was your advice around, you know, how you get started in this process. You know, like we had talked, one of my questions for you when we first met at this conference was like, what do we do about dick pics? Like how do people open in an appropriate

way? And what are you looking for? You know, you're out there, you're a single mom. You're like, I'd really love to engage in my next relationship but like what the fuck i opened this thing and there's penises like every second conversation it's like you know has anybody a not had a conversation with the the men and saying like please first of all like nope it's not pretty generally speaking this is the wrong site, but also how, you know, and I guess one of my things that I love the most about you is when you were like, ask specific questions, invite them to be at the level that you want them to be at. Not like, Hey baby, you look fantastic. More like, um, tell me where this picture was taken. You know,

can you expand on that a little bit, how you sort of set the precedent right out of the gate? I thought that was just brilliant. I'm so glad. Yeah. So let me give your listeners a little one-on-one about profiles because profiles really do set the tone for a lot of things. So on hinge, you have six photos and then you can respond to these prompts. And so let me tell you what you should have for your photo. So first photo should be a headshot. I should be able to clearly see what you look like no sunglasses, no filters, just at a glance, what do you look like, then throughout your other photos, I should have a full body image, pictures of you doing something that you love. So if you love hiking, if you love skiing, if you love playing Scrabble, sort of show us you in your element, and then at least one photo with family and friends

and make sure that it's not a photo where it's like from a bridesmaids event and you all look the same. Like make sure it's clear which one of you we are. Cause people get frustrated when it's like, I thought it was this guy, son of a bitch. And you show up, you're like, Oh, you're that one. No, I want to completely, completely. Okay. And then, so that's it for photos. And then for the prompts, you want to have a mixture of humor and vulnerability. You don't want to be all silly because then you don't look like you have any gravitas, but you also don't want to be all serious. Show us that you have a sense of humor.

So from there, that really helps people connect with you for an opening line. So for example, you might put on your profile, I love podcasts, but a better one would be a that plus a hook a question that people can follow up with you on. So something like, I love podcasts, especially self help ones. Bonus points if you send me your favorite bonus points if you love Jodi's podcast, and then you created the opening line for them. So they might say, I love podcasts too. I wake up every day listening to Mel Robbins, something like that. And so people think about their profile as a monologue. It's me talking to the world, but a much better profile is a dialogue

where your profile is the opening line and it makes it really easy for someone to connect with you. So when you are messaging somebody, ask a question, engage with them, but start and make it easier for people by making a profile that somebody can respond to easily. Okay. Love it. Hey, everyone. We all know how draining cold and flu season can be. Waiting rooms, missed appointments, and that worry about whether a fever is something serious.

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mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. And I also love that in that conversation, you know, when you start going back and forth, right, to keep the conversation going, really engaging on the things that they've already put out there, right? Like, you know, what is your highest golf score?

What is your lowest golf score? Like, oh, you know, when you hike, I see this picture. Is that in the something, something canyon? You know, I mean, I got to, I always tell this story about Aaron and I. So we met on Lava Life. I don't even know what that is. Shut up. Okay. So this is dating me so incredibly.

It was like the archaic form of, you really need to Google it, Logue, because it is like MSN Messenger was the only way we could communicate on Lava Life. And it was the same thing. So you could like somebody and you would set limits. So his height limit was too high for me. So he came up on mine, but I didn't come up on him

because I'm I'm five two he's six one and so his he would only date anybody five five so I was like pulling it all up in it and so then he comes on mine and so I had to send him a heart I think or a thumbs up maybe a harsh or something and there was a picture of him this grainy picture of him in a cattle like he's he shows cows and it's a thing out here in Alberta and um he's in a ring like with a halter on and a cow and I had also done that growing up so I was like oh my god what cattle show is that and it was like the first conversation that we would have that was really engaging about like okay you know something about what I like and when you said that I was like that is so true because you want to know that there's going to be some intelligent form of communication that comes right out of the gate. And then if you get back that response of like, hey, you know,

send me your boobs, then you can be like, okay, not my person. Maybe you want boobs sending back and forth, but like generally speaking, so many people who come to me say, I don't even know how to initiate this anymore. I don't, I'm exhausted. As you said, in this say, I don't even know how to initiate this anymore. I don't, I'm exhausted. As you said, in this space, I don't know, you know, how to, how do you, why does it seem like everybody are duds? And so any other tips on like how to weed through the duds? What's a, is there some red flags that sort of indicate right out out of the gate that you'd be like, no, thank you. Yes. Well, first of all, there's just two parts of your story that I want to highlight because I really like them. So the first one is that you technically be like, no, thank you. Yes. Well, first of all, there's just two parts of your story that I want to highlight because I really like them. So the first one is that you technically made the first move with your husband because you were the one to say, where was this taken?

And so you put out there what you were interested in, and that is such a good strategy. I feel like a lot of women are afraid to make the first move, but when you make the first move, you are more likely to go after what you want. For example, if you wanted your dream job, you wouldn't just sit around waiting for a recruiter to message you on LinkedIn. You would go out and apply for that job. You would network for it. And so when women really go after what they want with dating, it has better results. The second great thing is that your story talks about the fact that your husband had a height filter and you were outside of it. And so if he had just looked at

who is available to him, you wouldn't have even come up. And that's one of the things that I see people doing way too often is they have really restrictive filters for height, for age, for geography. And there's tons of people that they don't see. And so the way that I think about dating apps is it's kind of like a club. And your filters are the bouncer at the front of the club saying who can come in and who can't. And so you're in an empty club saying there's no great guys out there. Well, guess what? Your bouncer's excluding all the guys under six feet tall. And what we know is that only 14% of the guys in the US are six feet or taller. So if that's your height minimum, guess what,

there are no guys in your club. And so really, I encourage people to look at the filters that they have on hinge, expand them and understand you could definitely be happy with somebody a little bit farther away or a little bit shorter or taller than you might expect. Because as I said at the beginning, you think you know what you want, but you don't. Oh, and I love when you say that Aaron is like, we've been married for 15 years. And I can tell you like to the bottom of my soul, he was nothing that I dated before. I like wanted somebody who could lift a truck. I didn't care if they could spell the word. Um, I needed, if you could like play hockey, you know, like you were just like, and I want you to be funny. And like, we can just like light up the room. My husband is none of those things. You couldn't get flatter. There's

everything about a spreadsheet. He is the most stable rock in this whole role. And I I I'm shocked to this day that I married him it was the best decision of my life but I remain shocked and I remember even thinking on our wedding day like having a conversation I had the best girlfriend who like walked me home through all of these worries about like I'm like he is nothing like I had dated before even my family was like this is like out of left field like are you sure like he's so quiet. Is there truth to this idea, you know, that you're looking for a balance? You know, this is this, you know, opposites attract or, you know, like, and like, like, what, what do you what does the science say about like, who you should be looking for? Yeah, it's funny, because sometimes I find

that, you know, there's sayings in dating relationships that are opposites, like birds of a feather flock together and opposites attract. It's like, okay, well, those things mean the opposite thing, which one is true. And I think it depends. But what I would say is that people focus way too much on who the person is on paper. What school did they go to? What job do they have? What's their family like? Or things like, are they introverted or extroverted? And instead of all the resume on paper stuff, they should focus on things like, how do I feel around them? And so for you, you might have thought, I'm Jodi, I have a big personality. Of course, I should be with another life of the party person. But it sounds like you found out that when you were with Aaron, you were like, I'm putting words in your

mouth, but tell me if this is true. Like, I feel more grounded. This person feels like home to me. We create a nice complimentary situation here. We would be good parents together. And so it's less about you figuring out what the person is in a vacuum out of context and more you dating someone and saying, when I'm with this person, I feel like the best version of myself and that's who I should try to be with all the time. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. You said it beautifully. I love it. Now I want to talk about something very exciting. Okay. Um, okay. First, before I do that, I want to just ask you this one question. Tell me about becoming a mom and a badass at the same time. Because one of the questions that I struggle with, you know, is, you know, I'm a mom of three and you travel.

You're this brilliant entrepreneur. We're going to talk about Netflix that you've now stepped into, like all of the things that you're doing. Logan, has it been hard to navigate your own personal relationships as you are sort of becoming this world renowned expert? Thank you. Yeah, so I became a mom late at the end of last year. And I have to say, I absolutely love it.

I would say childbirth was harder than I expected it to be. And motherhood has been much better than I expected it to be. And I don't know if people just are low key about it, or if you just see a lot of images on social media about how hard it is. But I would say motherhood has really exceeded expectations. I just think it's really, really fun. Like I think that getting to see my daughter and playing with her and seeing her learn new skills, like there's nowhere else I'd rather be. And I constantly have that feeling where I think a lot of modern life is a feeling of FOMO or your body's in one

place, but your brain is on a zoom or looking at your phone or wishing you were somewhere else. And when she's in the bath, and I'm with her, I'm like, this is where I should be. And that feeling of mindfulness and presence is just really great. And so I would say I love watching her learn. I've really enjoyed taking on this project with my husband. I think she's so cute. And I love watching her learn. I've really enjoyed taking on this project with my husband. I think she's so cute and I love spending time with her. And so like, of course, there's nights where you don't sleep. And of course, there's time when your freedom is more limited because you're responsible for someone. But I have really, really enjoyed becoming a mom. Oh, I love that. And even as you describe her, I see you just light up. And I, you know, in when we were speaking about her, she was so little the first time we met.

And I think there's something very grounding about developing your system, isn't there? Which is, I think, sort of the epitome of why people want relationships, healthy relationships, right? Because I often think about this in this world of becoming unlonely. How do we choose relationships, not just any relationship, but the relationships that feel good for us, right? Because as you say, quantity seems to be the name of the game, right? And it's so easy, easier to replace and move on. Not enough. I got three more matches anyway over here. You're kind of a fucking idiot or you were late or whatever the deal was, right? There's something so critical about that depth. And even as you describe, you know,

your relationship with your daughter, it really is those of us who can be very big and bouncy and next ideas, you know, having that grounding force in your life as relationships do the healthy ones do. Can you speak to that? You know, the idea of just how beneficial like being securely attached within systems become? Yes. So, you know, it's interesting with my husband, like we've been together for almost 10 years and we've had ups and downs, but I would say like we're generally a really happy couple. But one thing that was really hard for us was,

I would say wedding planning. So we were one of those unlucky couples that were supposed to get married in 2020 during the pandemic. And we actually ended up planning and then canceling three versions of the wedding and having one later. And so, you know, wedding planning was tough. And so basically around wedding planning, I was like, Oh, this is so frustrating. Like I didn't enjoy planning it with my husband. I felt like he was hard to deal with. I was complaining about it to my friends all the time. And I

remember speaking to a therapist at one point and I was like, does this mean that we shouldn't have kids? And she was like, no, that's a completely different thing. Like your husband's not interested in the wedding. So he doesn't want to help. But when you have kids, if you decide to have kids together, he will be. And so that's just one thing that I've really seen shine through with him is that he is the kind of person where you can't tell him what to do. But if he decides to do something, he'll do it better than anyone else. And so he's just been so into parenting, such a good dad, like, even when I met you, you know, my daughter was only a few months old, but I was able to go meet you in Vancouver,

because he took care of her and was on top of it. Yeah. Right. And so I would say, you know, just this idea of having a secure partner where you can really think about parenthood as a partnership and a collaboration and a pretty fun project to do together. And so I would say, you know, obviously becoming a new parent has a lot of trials, but in general, our relationship is better than ever

because I have so much goodwill built up. Thank you for waking up with her and giving her the bottle. Thank you for ordering compostable diapers for her. Thank you for organizing this fun music class that if he does something that annoys me, I don't even bring it up and it doesn't even bother me that much because all that goodwill or as the Gottman's call it, the emotional bank account is very full. Yes. Amen. And, and that point I think is just so critical, right? Because, you know, finding the partner doesn't just mean then the end game is done. The importance about sort of what is the plan in keeping it into a place that it feels secure and safe is, I love to your point,

right? It is the building up of goodwill, right? Because we constantly need some acknowledgement in this space and it's becoming harder and harder to do that. So it has to be done on purpose. Because we do spend less time together than our parents did. We do look at each other less time, we have less opportunities to actually sit and have a coffee. Like, I, Aaron and I are like two ships passing in the night, particularly, we've created this sanctity for our children, I think. And we fuck it up all the time. I mean, by no way are we doing it well all the time. But I think, you know, people ask all the time for me, for Marty, about like, how is it that you get to travel so much?

How is it that, you know, you have three kids at home. Do you feel guilty? Like, are you fucking your kids up? Great question. We ask ourselves that all the time. But this certainly couldn't have been, it couldn't be the place it is if it wasn't for our partners, our parents, the people who sort of navigate. Because I think becoming a successful woman in this world really requires a security of relationships around you. Would you agree? Yeah, I love that. And I think Esther Perel has this thing that I've heard her say at conferences where she'll say, who is

the person who's at home so that you could be here? And I really love that acknowledgement that like, once you become a parent, your ability to be in one place is often dependent on your partner's ability to take care of things at home. And I just feel super lucky about that. Because there's this poet named Maggie Smith, she has this book I think it's called This Place Could Be Beautiful and she talks about how when her husband would travel for work he didn't have to prep her because she knew everything going on in the house but when he went away for work it was so much work for her because she had to say here's where the diapers are here's the change of clothes here's who does the carpool for baseball practice. And then even when she was away, she would get calls like, what about this?

What about that? And he would act so resentful. And I think from the beginning, I've had stories like that in my mind. And I am lucky enough to have a partner and to be able at this time in my life to have somebody who I don't have to prep. And either the other day, my friend was over and she was like, Oh, what's your daughter eating? Is she eating apples? And I was like, I actually don't know. And I'm happy because it means that there's something on her plate.

There's something like that's off my metaphorical plate. And that's something he's in charge of her eating. And so I really, really appreciate the fact that I can go away and he can go away. He was at a meditation retreat all week last week and that we are both equal partners and allow each other the security of home, but also the freedom to go and have adventures in the worlds without the family. I love it. I love it. I want to dive into something very exciting for you, which I did not know was happening until today. And when this episode airs, hopefully very soon around the time that it's released, you have been headlong into a Netflix series. Like, this is how cool my friend is. She is the linchpin in a Netflix series that we are all going to adore and love.

It's called The Later Daters. She is the coach, the guide, the mentor, the guru to humans attempting to develop secure relationships 55 plus. Can you tell me, I mean, produced by the same amazing humans who did Love on the Spectrum, like all of these insightful, beautiful, connected shows. And Logan, no doubt you've been offered many things, but you chose to get really involved in this project. Can you tell me about it and why you're excited? Yes.

So thank you so much for that quick intro of the show. And it was one of those things where I was like, I feel really excited to have this opportunity, but I wasn't sure how it would be. I was six months pregnant when I was shooting it. I knew that it would be high stakes. I was managing my other job at Hinge afar, and I just thought it would be really stressful. But in the end, I loved shooting it. It was so, so fun.

I think I'm just one of those people. I was like two hours of hair and makeup every day. Like, that sounds amazing. And I loved the director. She was so wonderful, visionary, creative, open to feedback. I loved her. And I really, really loved the daters that we worked with. They were so open to being coached.

I think a lot of them hadn't been in therapy before or hadn't had an experience to have somebody sit with them and say, oh, let's go through your history. Let's go through your past relationships and patterns. And so they really were very receptive to the coaching and the experience of getting to work with them, getting to dive into this population of 55 plus people. We shot it in Atlanta and it was just so much fun and I can't wait for people to see it. And as you said, by the time this episode airs, it will be out on Netflix on November 29. Oh, my gosh, if we want to do a watch party, I'm all in because I how many Okay, so like, obviously, you know how the show ends,

and you get to sort of be the in with them in this process of engaging and you know, all these kind of things. What, like, what surprised you about it? What what and you know all these kind of things um what like what surprised you about it what what you know what was the the the thing for you as you stepped into this work which i'm you know have you done this kind of stuff before tv production i hadn't i hadn't done any tv show like this before i had done you know some interviews and things like that but nothing to this extent of you know being set, not exactly on set. But yeah, like having TV and having the boom mic and all that stuff. That was brand new and really, really fun and great to learn about.

I would say what surprised me the most was just this idea of how universal the problems that hold us back from finding love are. When I talk to younger people, they often think, oh, at a certain age, you grow out of it. And guess what? We don't really grow out of things. Really? We have to find our way to move past things. And so if you're somebody who's been chasing the bad boy

and you're single at 60, you're still chasing that bad boy, even though the bad boy looks a little different and has less hair. And so with these people, our conversations were very similar to the conversations I have with Gen Z and millennial

daters. Of course, the stakes are different. You know, you're not finding somebody to have kids with. You probably already, you know, made your money or have your career. There are nuances there. But at the end of the day, we're single people with bad habits that we need to break and new good habits we need to develop. And I found that a lot of the problems with this group of daters were similar to problems I deal with in other generations. And it just showed me

sort of the university of all those things. Oh, I really love that. And I think, you know, to your point, I mean, what did they teach you? Because, you know, you, you talked about even with your relationship with Scott and, and, you know, your baby as a project, like we are together as a team sort of building towards something where we're going to spend life together. Right. And, you know, when you come, did it make it more complicated when you then had two people come together, obviously with their own families, with their own financial backgrounds, you know, was there a lot more things on the plate or did you find that those were just obstacles like everybody has?

Yeah, it's a great question. I would say sometimes it made things easier. Sometimes it made it harder. So, for example, one thing that's easier is I think people more know who they are. And so I think there's a little less of self-discovery. But at the same time, people are more stubborn. And so they're less willing to compromise. I like my fridge organized the way it is. I have the wake-up time I like. There was a guy was ex-military and he just he didn't want to share space

with someone. So I think in some ways you're just more stubborn and rigid and set in your ways. In other ways, you are not raising a child with somebody. So you don't necessarily need someone to have the exact same values of you or the same religion as you might think about more when you're younger and going to raise a family with them. That being said, you have a whole family that you need to combine with this other person's family. And that's one of the reasons that this show I think is so cute and heartwarming is that we really set it up. So you're not just dating the person, you're dating their family. And so people's families were involved with the process. Each

dater had a confidant. So it was their, their daughter or their ex or somebody from their family. And so it's really acknowledging the fact that dating at that age is really about combining two families. Oh, I love that. And, you know, I've often heard this, you know, we, we tend to be so independent these days and, but still we forget that if our families don't connect, this is, we, we, we show up in a system, right? And so really being conscious of those things. I love that this show took that angle and really sort of demonstrated, I think the importance of like how that navigates because it does become so critical, I really learned a lot from them. I think the fact that they were older, they were in the South, a bunch of them had been married before some had been widowed, you know, some had had divorces, different situations, but really listening to people and understanding the depth of their experience and then showing up in the way that I could was just such a fun experience. And honestly, getting to know their kids was hilarious. There's one woman who was a chatterbox. And at one point,

I was like, we're going to set a timer for five minutes and your kids talk and you don't. And it was just great to hear like what her kids said when she was, she was not speaking. Yeah. Yeah. Aw, it just sounds so fulfilling. Any sense of like, do we know if there's a season two or do you get to know that? No, we don't hear anything about that till the show comes out and they see how it does but it was such a great experience to be super fun to do it in another city oh my god i'm so proud of you that's so amazing thanks jody i'm proud of you okay so one last question i want to just sort of

bring it back what what is when we think about what people, you know, you, you've now worked with people across the age spectrum, you know, you've coached people, um, globally, when we think about humans and their desire to be in a relationship, are there some universal truths? Are there some things that just everybody wants to get out of relationships that you've sort of come to put together, you know, in all of your years and navigating people together? Yes, it's a great question. I think, you know, actually, the first thing that popped into my head was actually how fluid relationships are and how that's something that Gen Z is showing us that, you know, there's a lot more interest in polyamory. There's a lot more interest in the idea that maybe I don't want one person forever.

I might just want one person at a time, but I don't want to get married. And I think it's great that our society is expanding the definitions of what we're looking for in relationships. So there is a lot of fluidity there ushered in by Gen Z, which I really like. That being said, I think a lot of people just want this person who feels like home, where they say, I can show you my true self and feel accepted. I feel seen, I feel heard, I feel desired, I feel important. And I think the more that we can find that the better it feels in our relationship, I think it is easier to go through life with a partner, I think there's a lot of evidence of that. And so kind of, as I said before, it's fine if you want to die alone. But I think for people who don't want to die alone, really investing that time to understand

who you are, what you want, what's holding you back, and then making a plan to overcome it. That's really the path. Oh, listen, humans, this one, this one knows. And I love your insights. I let you are just so brilliant. The book, again, is How Not to Die Alone, the surprising signs that will help you find love. And I think that the later daters, I'm going to make a big deal of that around here because I think it's going to be fodder for such discussion, right,

around how do we navigate each other. When you get out of a relationship, that doesn't mean that the next fella is going to be better, the next woman or the next human is going to be better. We often expect that as soon as we get out of this. But I promise you, you have to do some self-reflection. Everybody's not a narcissist. Everybody isn't the problem, right? It is a dynamic that occurs. And so really some solid reflection on how we show up and what we need. And what is that? How do we sort of set up that dynamic is so critical. And I'm so brilliant that you would do

this post 55 daters, really being able to sort of navigate that. You will learn so much, no doubt, from watching the show. I'm going to be a massive fan. Logan, thank you so much for taking this time. Jodi, thank you. Thanks for the conversation and for getting the chance to connect with you and your audience. And thanks for all the great work that you put out there. Oh, I just love you. I can't wait to see you again. And in the meantime, everybody, take care of each other. Mostly take care of yourself in this very lonely world.

All we need is you. So I'll meet you right back here again next time if you're free. The Unlonely Podcast is produced by three incredible humans. Brian Seaver, Taylor McGilvery, and Jeremy Saunders. All of Snack Lab Productions. Our executive producer, my favorite human on this planet, is Marty Piller. Soundtracks were created by Donovan Morgan, Unlonely branded artwork created by Elliot Cuss, our big PR shooters are Des Veneau and Barry Cohen.

Our digital marketing manager is the amazing Shaina Hadden. Our 007 secret agent from the Talent Bureau is Jeff Lowness. And emotional support is provided by Asher Grant, Evan Grant, and Olivia Grant. Go live! I am a registered clinical psychologist in Alberta, Canada. The content created and produced in this show is not intended as specific therapeutic advice. The intention of this podcast is to provide information, resources, education, and the one thing I think we all need the most, a safe place to land in this lonely world. We're all so glad you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you.

From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not, just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push, find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca.