Unlonely with Dr. Jody Carrington - How to Stop Taking People’s Behavior So Personally - Jesse Lipscombe

Episode Date: September 24, 2026

What if the people who hurt us are also the people who heal us?In this powerful conversation, Dr. Jody sits down with actor, speaker, community leader, and all-around remarkable human Jesse Lipscombe to talk about empathy, resilience, hope, and what it means to truly see another person.From growing up in a mixed-faith household to navigating racism, parenting, acting, and life in a rapidly changing world, Jesse shares the lessons that have shaped the way he understands humanity and why he refuses to give up on people.Together, Jody and Jesse explore:Why empathy is one of the bravest things we can practiceWhat acting teaches us about human connectionHow relationships can both wound us and heal usWhy play is essential at every ageThe difference between toxic positivity and genuine hopeWhat it means to stay soft in a world that often asks us to hardenThis episode is a reminder that people are hard to hate up close. That every person is carrying a story we can't see. And that hope isn't something we find, it's something we choose.If you've been feeling discouraged by the state of the world lately, this conversation might be exactly what your heart needs.Follow Jesse Here:https://www.instagram.com/thelipscombe/https://ca.linkedin.com/in/lipscombe Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This episode is brought to you by Shark Ninja. Okay, I have to tell you about the newest thing in our kitchen because it is so much cooler than I thought it was going to be. Shark Ninja Sunchy Twist and all of my kids helped me inbox it. We had lemonade, pink lemonade and pineapple slushies going and a soda slushy is next because apparently this is who we are now. It's a smart frozen drink maker that makes two different drinks at the same time or twist them together with. the pull of a lever. And here's what surprised me. It is so easy to use. If you know me in a kitchen, it needs to be easy to use. No ice, no blending, no guesswork, just good times on tap. The slush assist tech monitors both sides and adjust the temperatures as needed. It has officially become

our summer staple moving right on into fall. Everybody gets to pick a flavor. Everybody ends up in the kitchen and the machine does the work while we just kind of hang out. The Ninja Slushy Twist is double the fun on tap. Visit shark ninja.ca.ca to shop the new Ninja Slushy Twist. When you're there, sign up for an email and get 10% off the new item as a new subscriber. Terms and exclusions may apply. Welcome back.

Welcome in to another episode of the Unloomy Podcast. Listen, today I have a repeater, a repeat guest. I only bring back the best ones, okay? This guy, man, he's been one of my greatest teachers of all time. You know him as Jesse Lipscomb. He has, he's an Alberta boy. He is an actor, an activist, and author. He is a pickleball enthusiast.

Fix him to be a pickleball world champion. You'll hear about that in the episode. He's dad, he's a husband, and he's a fellow speaker. we are represented by the same agency, so we get to cross paths a lot. And every time I leave him, I think differently about the world. And I think you'll find this conversation, no exception to that. We talk a lot about, you know, how we see people these days and how we get back to the best in us if we see the worst in people sometimes. So deep breath, sink in wherever you are today.

I'm so glad you're here. And I hope you love this little conversation. Okay, let's dive in. You know, if you've ever heard one of my previous episodes with Jesse Lipscomb, you know this is no exception. This is going to be a banger. Hey, Jess? It's going to be a banger, Dr. J.

A banger. Okay. I, you know, before we even got on here, today. I said to you, I want to know so much more about Jesse the human because I think we always pick a topic and go for it. One of my biggest questions that I think every time we get to meet, we saw each other in person not very long ago. And I'm always left with just such awe of what you've created, what you pull together, your brilliance. And I want to know of all the places you've been, you've acted all over the world. You have been in and out of like everything from like the Legion

Hall to like on the finest stages. What experience in your life most shaped the way you see people? Experience most shaped the way I see people. I think it's too cold. I think one of the biggest ones is film and television and acting in theater and all of the craft that is acting. And a lot of that comes from, you know, I mean, you've heard it before. You have to step into other people's shoes. You have to find truth in imaginary situations.

But I think a lot of the pieces, whenever I've played the villain, and I put it in quotes, because there's always an antagonist and a protagonist. But to truly play those characters, you have to be like we all are and understand we're the heroes in our own world. So the decisions that we're making are coming from a place of experience, a place of pain, a place of joy. And we think we're making the best decisions for our lives. And so as I've stepped through different characters, I've gotten a lot more empathy. for people who I might just say, that's a bad guy or that's this kind of guy.

And then as I play these characters, you know, you see where that comes from, how family dynamics and how environmental and social pressures and financial pressures and maybe mental health, whatever the case, shapes a person, and whatever that person is, they're making decisions that best suit their survival and whatever thing they really want.

And so then as I've learned these things, It could be something as small as driving down the street and getting cut off. And I'm like, that's not about me. I mean, A, that person can't be mad at me because they don't know me. That's first. So there's no chance they don't. And then the second piece is if they're in a state or in a mood, that's where they're at. They're trying to get to their next hour, to their next task and taking none of that stuff personally.

So acting is giving me a ton of empathy for human beings and how I feel about them. And then the second chunk would be like my kids and watching them grow up. It's like no matter I have an experience, I was their age at one point. And then I'm this age. They currently only have one experience of them going through that age. And so I can't tell them how it is because I know it in a different way than they know it. So I get to learn and be patient, even mostly not patient. Let's be clear.

Frustrated. Let's be extra clear. very frustrated many times. Broat punchery. Oh, absolutely. Little assolary life suck in and cayus,

but god damn, you're good teachers. They're so great teachers. Oh, they are. Oh, they're great. So I'd say,

yeah, I'd say being a parent and being an actor has definitely been the biggest chunks. Hmm. When did you first realize that people could either

heal each other or hurt each other? And both. I think that's Both of those have been pretty clear for me for most of my life. You know, like I'd say, okay, mom and dad, I love you. I just say, you know, I love you so much if you listen to this. But also, you know, I grew up in a two-religion household.

So, like, and when I say two-religion, we were raised Catholic, and I went to Catholic school. But we were the Catholics that went to church at Christmas and Easter. So was it, we were, you know, yeah, right. So that was it. I got my first communion and stuff like that. My dad's side is Jehovah Witness. And so having two diabolically different worldviews on religion between two parents who love each other, but also that didn't create the calmest atmosphere at all times growing up.

So there was always this idea, you know, when my parents would fight. I'm like, okay, so they chose each other to marry. They wanted to be with each other forever. But also, it feels like they used to. get into like World War III at home. And I'm like, it's interesting. This is the person you chose to be with your entire life, but also a person that seemingly can hurt each other so easily. And so my first view of that, I think, started early and just understanding that we aren't one thing. Yes, a person can be go of witness, could be Catholic, could be your husband, could be your wife,

could be your partner, and could also be the person that causes you may be the most pain you've ever had, but also the most safety. And so that idea of like, we're not just one thing, that Dic of human life, I think started all with my parents' relationship. And of course, then my own relationships growing up. And, you know, it's just that idea that I feel like the things that can bring you the most joy also have the potential to hurt you the most. I hear you. And I think what's interesting about that, I often think about this, that, you know, it is humans that cause us the most pain. And the only way we heal is in relationship with those same humans, maybe not those exact same humans, but in this human race. And so it makes sense to me that when humans have hurt you or

cast you aside or made you feel less than, to find that empathy is such an act of courage. And I love how you say in this place of acting, it's sort of given you some of those green lights to step into what it might be like to be the bad guy. And I just kept thinking as you were saying that, you know, Briné Brown's words always come to me, like, people are hard to hate close up. Yeah, absolutely. And I, and I loved, you know, your conversation. You told me once that you do some acting in police scenarios and the history of racism and policing and, you know, like what it's like to, you know, the treatment of marginalized people's in any capacity. I have such a love for police officers and policing in the profession that is very wildly unsupported in my very privileged view. And I think it's a

breeding ground for racism because when you continue to have to serve emotionally disregulated humans all the time and why that is, why they are in those positions, many humans are in those positions is because you can't give away something you've never received. And what I hear you say is that it's so interesting to step into and feel what it's like to be in that position where people just see you so poorly and most importantly than to teach about that. Can you tell me a little bit about that transition between both of those sides? Because I think that's such a unique experience, Jess, that so many people don't get, that you, you know, you just get stuck, not stuck, but you only know your own worldview. And then the more divisive as I watch

this world be coming, we then get, we have no access to other people. So we block and bless. If you don't look like me, sound like me, talk like me. And if you don't believe like me, which really gives us no access to what that other perspective might be. Yeah. Yeah. You, It's funny. You said in that little bit, there were so many things that actually hit. One of the things you said is as an actor, for sure, I step into these roles where people view you as villains. But as you were saying, and I'm like, well, actually, that's kind of how I've lived my whole life. You know, being six foot four, 250 pound black man, I've been the villain in many people's eyes for no other reason than what they see. Right. So like for me, I, I've been the thing. And then when I'm acting as the thing, I get to see many more layers of it. For sure. The other piece too, yeah, working with with police, which is wild for me, you know, like even when you say, you're like, I love the police. I'm like, I saw, I saw your body shift. I know. I know. I know. Yeah, yeah. Because like I can't, I can't blanket statement say I love the police. That's for me, that seems irresponsible and foolish because the.

I love the humans who make up police officers. Maybe that would have been a better statement for me to say. But this is great because that's how I would have left it at that had I not started working with police and training. I would have left it at I don't like the police, which is why it was wild that I ended up doing this kind of work because I could then, I could separate the individuals. So what kind of work? Tell me, tell us that. What kind of work? I didn't. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I do work with different police outfits. And they often use actors to do different scenarios while they're training. So the recruits, as they're in the academy, going through their block ones, through block threes.

We actually, it's a great company. It's called Human Element. And they provide actors to the police. And we go in and do different scenarios so that they are ready when they go out on the streets. They make tons of mistakes. I was very reluctant at the beginning to put myself in a situation of untrained officers learning. But there was a big side of mine, Megan, who you met was the one who was like, hey, Jesse, I think you'd be a really good asset here, you know, being your size and your race. And being able to train and then have real discussions afterwards about how their unconscious bias may have made some errors and be able to get stuff off of my chest too at the same time.

And so there was one side where it's very good for them. And then there was a new side that I didn't know that was very healing for myself. initially the idea of retramatizing myself over and over seemed kind of silly, right? I could understand the job and it's good acting work as well, but that part seemed like, why would I do that? But I actually found a lot of healing in it, a lot of healing through, A, looking at people, one at a time going through these things, not the police, not the police, but people who, by their own words and their actions, and you could see them really wanting to do it.

good job and then those same people making really horrible errors. You're not your worst thing. Now, unfortunately, with police, you make an error like that later on. It can be the worst thing, right? Like the repercussions for an error can be very bad. But when I'm training with them, totally different scenario. You know, it could be a little scary, but at the same time, we have a time to debrief, we chat about it. And in that sense, there was one, a quick little story. I remember there was one police officer going through it. And, you know, in one scenario, it's mean. Another scenario, it's a white guy. And how they treated me was so different. And, you know, one guy after it was over, you know, he was a little bit more

aggressive than he needed to be in a scenario that didn't require it. And his excuse after was, well, look, he's so huge. I was like, terrified. Look at the size of this guy. He's a monster. And I, and just hearing those words, right? Like, I would go in, like, he's so big. He's a monster. He's scary. And I'm like, oh, and they're saying it with a smile on their face. Like it's funny, but, but he didn't do so well. He came up to me and thanked me. He said, I know I failed that, but thank you so much because I did not realize. I don't know why I did that, but I saw that blind spot, that unconscious bias that made me treat you differently. That thing will never happen again. It was just this one moment and it was very, just him and I alone. And I'm like,

these are the reasons why I'll do some of this work because, yeah, I can take it. I'm built for this kind of stuff, but at the same time, maybe that's a life saved. Maybe that's courage for him to stand up to somebody else. Maybe that's a small bit of how we can change what the history of policing has been in the States and in Canada. Maybe, I don't know, but I mean, I'm trying to do a little bit of the time. So, yeah, it's interesting work for sure. And as you were saying that, you know, I guess my question for you sometimes is, is how much work do you have to do to put yourself in those positions because every thing you've said, you know, even back to the first question, you know, about, you know, being able to have empathy and learning from your children, a lot of that is predicated on you being a good place to do that. Because we actually can't give another person empathy if we're disrelated. We can't give another person, you know, if we're angry. If nobody's never seen the good in us, then it's hard to see the good in another person.

And I'm so interested in, you know, I hear you say maybe there's a little bit of good here. And, you know, you and I've talked about this at what cost, right? Why do you always have to be the guy that is teaching people? And how many stupid questions you get, particularly in Black History Month. But every other, I think if we were to gauge them, they would be particularly large. There's a peak. Yeah. There's a bit of a peak, I would imagine.

And, and again, I think, you know, I'm just interested in how much effort it takes to serve. And I think that's true across any industry or human work that we do. But it's like, if we're not okay, the people we serve don't stand a chance, has there been a shift in how you protect yourself, how you dig deep for you so that the cost seems worth it, feels worth it? You can believe to the core of you that it's worth it. Yeah, tell me about that cost and what you do. Yeah, I think so.

I find you said something earlier about it takes its courage to be empathetic, to have empathy. And I never thought of it that way. I felt like it's more, that's survival. It is so much more work to be angry. By the way, I and many marginalized people have every right to be angry all day. Every right. I wouldn't blame them. Absolutely.

I have found that it is too heavy. And I realize I do have a choice in many scenarios, situations in life on how long I'm going to carry something. I also know the longer I carry anything, the heavier it's going to get. And half of the things that people are giving me to carry I didn't ask for, I didn't want. And so I find most of the time I'm either dodging, handing back, saying thank you, no, but that's actually not mine. You can keep it with things that normally would be heavy. And then I choose to have empathy because if I don't, then I'm going to carry this feeling about this person.

and then that's heavy as well. And all of that, I just think of how many of those scenarios I could be carrying in my backpack. You know, I'm like, I don't want to. I don't want to.

So I just, I think it's less about the survival piece and, and, and less, sorry, less about the courageous piece and more about this is just makes life easier for me. And so the idea of like serving and being burnt out,

I also find that that's where a lot of my fuel comes from. Like if I'm insular and I'm not out, uh, connecting with people, people, teaching people serving. That means I'm probably at home, maybe by myself, maybe on my phone. And now, now it's actually quite the opposite. There's no, there's no release. Nothing's cathartic. I'm not, I'm not unloading anything. I'm not sharing energies with folks. So I think more often than not the work that I do actually is where I can unload. I can feel a little less weighty.

So yeah, I think that all of this work is, it's too cold. It's not, it's not just for the good of humanity. It is for the good of myself as well. And luckily, there's benefits on both sides. And I think that this is true for you and so many other people, but like when that shift happens consciously, which is, this is for the good of me first. And whatever comes after that is a benefit. And the better I am, the more capacity I have to give that away. I think that is such a shift that so many, you know, that I see so much of the time. Like I think it's to be pitied me a burnout, right? When we consider that our job is actually just to serve and to make people better.

And when I think about the the loneliness epidemic and the anxiety and the depression and the babies that are so suicidal and all of the things we're missing and what are we doing about foster care and fuck you policing and also this and and and Trump and the terror. And why are we saying war and why is there not, you know, ever conversation about gender equity in any planet on this. And to the. I think that then what that steals from us as humans is our capacity for good. Yeah, absolutely. And it's like I love how you can articulate that shift, right? Which is like, yes, I do tons of good in the world. And when I get caught up in that thing, then I start to think about like, fuck you,

I don't want to do this work for you again or I'm not thinking, you know, it is such that necessary shift to back to this is for me first. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think also we don't. Do you do that consciously? Yeah.

I mean, yeah, like this idea, we don't have to do a lot. Like when we realize that we have permission to do what we want to do, and really like looking at, I don't, I don't have to go back to whatever job you're in right now. You don't have to. You don't have to scroll through that thing on Instagram. I don't have to have that conversation with someone that I don't want to. Like there's no one keeping score that says you missed one. None of that, right?

So knowing that, I'm, I choose, and I have the autonomy to choose which things will fill my cup and which things I'm proud of. I've said this to you before, that idea of like looking in the mirror and saying, I love you and I'm proud of you. Like if I do that every night, I get a little checklist on like what did, how was my day? How did I handle the things that were given to me, thrown at me, offered to me what I tried to take. And if I can say I love you and I'm proud of you, then that was a good day. And if I can't, I'm like, oh, I did a little too much of that thing. adjust that for tomorrow. But I think that's like the big piece. Like I don't, I just don't have to.

I don't have to. And knowing that, I get to. It's such permission. Yeah, it is. It is. And I don't think we give ourselves enough permission in life for so much, you know? No. And it reminds me of this, like, probably one of the most effective therapeutic strategies I always use, which is when somebody comes into me with, like, massive anxiety, historically what we want to do is treat that. So we start to say things like, take a deep breath, wiggle your toes, look, look, at me, look at me, let's take a drink of water, you know? But you know what works even more effectively is when I just say, let it come. Let it be here. Give it to me. Let's not be scared of it. Let's ask it why it's here. Let's get full permission to stay. Right? And it's so

interesting what happens always. Like I would say 99, well, actually 100% of time, even if there's a bit of an influx after, they're like, oh, I can't, I can't handle it. It's just an emotion, you and me. Right. I got you. Let's do it. Let's ask it. And then every time it's like it shrinks. It's going to allow me to approach it. And I think there's this sort of esoteric conversation that many people are scared of in the mental health space. You know, when people are like, do you really look in the mirror and say, I love you? As I've turned 50, there is so much more conversation about, I know, thank you. Yeah, go on. That's your. 51. 51 actually coming up. When I think about just what it's taking. in the last even five years to continue to do this work. I actually have to be much more purposeful about going to bed at night with a,

my therapist and I created this like sort of diatribe of like 30 minutes about the three things that I want the most in my life. Can I tell you them? These are the three things that I love. I define myself by these three things, relentless audacity, a quiet confidence and unrelenting presence. So at the end of the day, I ask myself, am I doing, am I acting in those ways?

Am I performing? Am I serving in those ways? Relentless audacity for me as a woman means about like, I have so many, I mean, you don't talk about this, you know, oh, Jody, be too much. Don't swear, watch it. Oh, God, do you have to be that loud? Like, does it really?

I mean, and I question this all the time because I watch my daughter, who is equally, like me. And I'm always like, let me, let me do. Okay, okay, okay, okay. You know, but I'm like, relentless audacity is going to be required in a world where it's going to be harder and harder to be heard. But a quiet confidence is also necessary, right? You don't actually have to be the loudest person in the room to be heard.

In fact, when, if you believe in the direction that you're going, it doesn't have to be loud. You just need to relentlessly be present. So I love those connections. And so Gemma and I, you know, created this sort of like diatribe where she sort of reads over to me some of the things that we've talked about. And that's how I go to sleep at night. I love that. And it's like I never would have thought about like if you if you would have asked me this 10 years ago, I'd have been like, okay, woo woo, are you going to fucking light your bra on fire? And like, you know, I still am like, but the necessity it's going to be to keep to access the best parts of us being human is going to have.

to be put on like speed mode in order to counteract the amount of time we are disconnected from each other, that we are disconnected from self and universe and, and our partners and our children, you know? Tell me a little bit about, I mean, again, so I want to know, is there other things? What do you, what does support actually look like when you need it? How do you come home to you in those hardest moments? Yeah, I mean, it's like, I mean, that one thing, I feel you on the whole woo-woo, stuff. I used to be more like, whatever. Who does that stuff? I do agree with you. I, I've,

and lately more so, I've had to use some of the things that I did a long time ago that I would then often say to other people, but maybe I haven't been practicing them before. It's been like years. I've noticed myself now, like, whether it's going back and reading, rereading a book that I wrote or like, what are the, I've been saying this, when is the last time I've done that thing? You know, like it's, and it's the same like as a personal trainer. when I used to train years ago, you know, it's like, do this, do this. I'm like, I haven't done any of that for a while. But that's the foundations, right? Like those are the reasons that I can, the reasons that I could have been a personal trainer was because I learned, did all the foundational things and then taught them to other people.

But after a while, I'm like, I can't stop the foundational things. That's what's created this space that is somewhat unmovable. And so, you know, that's one thing I still do. It's not every night. But I do it. You know, it's funny. I do it every time I find myself just looking at myself in the mirror. I remember it. I used to put a sticky note on there to do that thing. So that's one of them. But other things for me are really simple. I love pickleball. Pickleball is one of my favorite sports in the entire world. And it's so fun and it's such a cool. It's like for adults, it's recess again. It's like you just go to the playground. And you're like, hey, do you want to play with me? And then you play with people. And I mean, fair. And you can't smash it.

You can. You got it. It is, you probably can. But it is the most. I, I adore it as well. If you listen, if you're listening, you don't play pickleball. Here's your plan. Here's your plan. You need to go.

You don't need any fancy equipment. You need to lead a little racket and your little pickleball. And it's dreamy. It's dreamy. Everybody can play it. Everyone play. So like as a family bonding or as a partnership bonding, it's great because you can play instantly.

Like that same day, you're playing a real game. And then, you know, as you get better and better, it's more you keep learning like everything. Like everything. Oh,

you don't say you're in like, You're in world qualifiers right now, aren't you? Like, no secret. I'm trying to go pro as a pickleball player. Um, because that's, well, yeah, like, yes. I'm, Joanie. I do not know this. You look at you.

It's like three hours a day. Every day. I love it. I, I ever. Stop right now. I won't. Ladies and gentlemen, humans around the world, you are witnessing bearing witness to the beginning of greatness in pickleball.

You're going to be the face of pickleball. I mean, look, I'll do my best with one. I can offer, you know, Pickleball. You know what, Jody, I seem to find myself just in areas where there's not a lot of black people. I don't know what it is. Maybe it's how I grew up in St. Albert, but like, I'm playing pickleball the day.

Then I'm going golfing afterwards. Like, what is happening? But all this, I'll have to say, I love it because you could just, that's the thing. You show up and you ask someone to play with you and you play with them. And life's great. But I do have a quick message for tennis players. Guys, calm down.

Calm down. Pickle ball is great. It's a different sport. Don't be mad that lots of people are playing. You can play both sports. You don't have to be one of the other. Are the tennisers mad at the pickleballers? You're so mad.

They're mad because we take up their courts. You know why? Because they're empty. So why come out and play pickleball with us? You elitist tennis players. I know. You have no idea what you're missing in the pickleball world. Oh, my God.

I love it. Okay, I want to take it back to one thing you said, though. You said one of your second pieces was it was, it was, With a quiet confidence, silent confidence. What did you say? Quiet confidence. Quiet confidence. And then I'm like, really, though?

Like, why quiet? And why not be loud? And why not? And I say this in the world we currently live in. I'm not, I can't, I can't, we can't fight what's happening with social media and brand awareness all the above. And I'm like, if I'm not going to to my horn, why would I expect someone else to? And I'm so over the idea.

This is when I was younger. I was always worried about. I wasn't worried. People told me, people told me, don't be, don't be too cocky. Don't, don't ever brag about your own stuff. No, stop. Yes, be proud of what you do and tell people what you do. And I'm like, be loud about it. And also so people can hear you so that I know you have a thing. Like every time I meet folks, we do a TV show or a theater show. I always get a group chat. I'm like, tell me, what do you have coming out? What are you excited about? Stuff that's, how can I be a fan? I want to hear about your things because people love.

work together. And I love to know what you're doing so I can share it with everybody. It makes me so happy. So anyways, I know quite a confidence, but also you've been a woman your whole life. I've been a black man my whole life. We've been asked to be quiet our whole life. I'm like, I want you to turn up the volume,

please. I'd stand on top of a mountain and scream it to everybody because they need to know how great you are and how wonderful. Maybe they get a chance to have some Jody in their life and they wouldn't have otherwise. That's important. So, Anyways, I was just thinking about that. I'm like, I don't want you to turn anything down.

Turn it up. I love that. And for me, the relentless audacity, that's where that lives. The quiet confidence is the balance to that for me because I think sometimes I'm screaming in rooms that aren't good efforts. Not that it's a waste of my time, but I think we are just such a limited resource in where we put who we choose to sit with, who we spend our time with, where we put those things. And so confidently knowing that sometimes even just being the presence in the room is enough, that it's not that sort of like, you know, you don't need to be the center of attention, right?

And I think part of me is a little bit as I age and become much more of a teacher than I am a learner. And I mean, I will always be the learner. But it's such as interesting shift. I always considered myself the kid in the room for a very long time, right? I was a student. I mean, I was 13 years plus secondary education. So I was always somebody's like, okay, you know, teach me. Oh my God.

I don't even know. Like, you know, and do you remember that time? I'm like, I would always go to conferences and be like, holy shit, I know nothing. And then there was a shift to be like, I should teach a shit. Like, are you telling you that? You, no, you're actually wrong there. And so not that, you know, I find, you know, there's more times now where like I've got to let people make their mistakes instead of be the one that is always like, mm-mm.

Yeah. So that's what quiet confidence is for me that just like people will arrive. You just need to give them some space to do that. Yeah. No, I'm with you there. Yeah. I love, I love that. you're always so wise.

So you always make me think about things. I want to know this. What have you changed your mind about in the last decade? Yeah, what have I changed my mind about in the last decade? I've changed my mind about, oh, the last decade. Yeah, I think when I was in my mid-30s-ish, the talk about midlife crisis coming up. And I was like, ooh, am I going to get a sports car? What am I going to do?

Am I going to blow up my whole life? But then as I get to my, as I'm in my mid-th century, 40s going into my late 40s. I'm like, and by the way, this is like a thing that I've been thinking about as a, as a potential like a book. But yeah, just the midlife crisis isn't a crisis. It's like a, it's like a synthesis. It's such a neat time because I'm like as I'm in this time and my kids are growing up,

my parents are getting older, you know, I have a stable job. I'm like, actually I'm maybe just now entering what it is to be an adult myself. that's not going to be fully, I got to make sure the kids are this way, I got to make sure I have a job. I'm in, I'm in a, it's not a crisis. It's just like awakening. Like, oh, I get to actually choose now and I have more emotional resources, financial resources, intelligent resources. Like, so now I get to like make a different decision than I'm 17 turning 18. I'm about to be an adult. Who am I? So it's like this, I've changed my amount of what that looks like. You know, I remember when I was in high school, you know, 45 to 50 year olds were basically. dead. I was like, they're old, right? And now I'm there. Basically dead. And now I'm sitting in it. I'm like, oh, this is like, feels like a real beginning more than anything, which is super exciting. So I've definitely changed my outlook on what 50 to 100 or forever, because I'll get a neuralink if it means I live, I don't mind getting spliced with robots. And that's an idea. I sign me up first. I would love it. Yeah, like I'm this.

AI world and tech and people being scared of it. And I am like, bring it on all of it. It's opportunities for days. But I would even be like symbiotic if I could sign up. I want to download languages and I want to download like, I, this is because you've been in some weird sci-fi shit. That's why. Yeah, it's probably.

Yeah. I think that that's what happens. Yeah, you're morphing these two. No, no, no, no, no. Stay here. Say here. Like, who am I? Right?

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But I always wondered this, like soap opera actors who have worked on the same show for like 30 years and they work five to six days a week playing one character. They've been that character more than they've been. Yeah, right? Themselves. Yeah, they've been that character more than they've been themselves. And like, what does that do?

I wonder, I don't even know because I haven't done that. I've been many different people all the time, even when I'm not asking to my wife's dismay. But still, I love doing bits at all times. And she's like, okay. No, you do. I'm sure Jules is like, for fuck sake, stop. I'm like, this is who you picked him. Yeah, yeah, exactly. We can only hang on to that for so long. The idea is, though, I'm interested in that world of, because I mean, I've read just a little bit about how some actors, actresses get stuck in characters. Is that a thing? Like, Timothy Shalamey, I think I was reading, maybe it wasn't him.

Somebody who just like sort of like they be it and live it and get in it so much. Like, is that. necessary? Is that just, you know, people's process? Is that, you know, tell me, tell me your opinion about that if you sort of watch people transform because I'm so fascinated as a therapist, how we can just like do that and step in and out of places. Well, they, I mean, like most would call that like method acting. So it's that idea, you know, if you're going to be a character, they want to live that character. So that character is an alcoholic or a drug addict or emaciated. Like they'll lose that weight and they'll do drugs and they'll be that. And there's no off switch. which even when they're like on set, that, that happened.

And that's some people's process. I don't have a, there's no right or wrong way. The goal is, how do I get to truth? That is the goal, right? So how do I find truth in whatever imaginary situation we're in? Even the term acting always kind of bothered me because we're not acting. We are reacting in real time to emotions and what our scene partners are presenting to us. So we create pockets of truth over and over and over and over.

if we're all doing our job. And that's the beautiful part about it. And so however you get there, people get there different ways. Now, I mean, I wouldn't call myself a method actor that would do that. But that's, again, back to the idea of preserving self. Maybe that might work for that role, but what did that, what told did that take on me? So there's some, yeah, what was the cost? That's always the question. There's some roles where it makes sense to, you know, like if I was working on an accent or working on how somebody, this character walks a certain way or by doing a biopic of that character. I probably would spend a lot of time as that person just so it's comfortable in my body. But, you know, I find finding truth pretty easy, actually.

So for me, it's one of my favorite things to just find out what will happen when I am open, vulnerable, and trusting. And this is the beauty part about like acting in real life. like it really gives you such amazing tools like I feel businesses, teachers should all take acting classes and improv classes because they're essentially listening classes but not just listening to what you say. I'm listening to what your eyes just did. I'm listening to why you crossed your arms. And how did that make me feel? And then I need to not hide that feeling. I need to use that feeling. And so that idea is yeah, anyways, it's just been it's been great to be able to do that. jobs kind of had that kind of safe circle of just trusting each other and being able to say and speak

your hard truths and reacting from them. Yeah. You know, as you're saying that too, I just see like such a beautiful opportunity in so many ways when we think about the fact that, you know, we're so much more disconnected as humans right now. And, you know, the purest form of generosity is my favorite quote these days. Purest form of generosity is undivided attention. Mm-hmm.

And I think about, you know, what a gift it is to be an actor in those ways where you have to study another human or imagine what it must be like to be another human and think about the nuances of, you know, the way they hold their hand or how they would say that word or how they would drop a shoulder or lean in or a particular thing. And I just think like what a gift that is to this group of people in this world where we just are so disconnected from each other. We miss the subtleties of human connection, mostly because. we have these devices we've never had before. And this is only a decade old. Like we're new here. Like I say this all the time. I got a PhD on micro-fiche.

Like when I told that to my children, they don't even fucking know what that is. And I was like, okay. So like literally, you know, you had to go to the place and talk to the people and pull it apart and write the notes and figure that out and pull that all back together. Which means there were so much intricacies

of exchange between humans before I even got to sort of writing what I thought to be true. And I said to my daughter this morning, I'll tell you this real quick, I said to my daughter this morning, Hey, she was sitting at the island before school and I was like, penny for your thoughts. And she said, what are you talking about?

And I said, well, it's a thing that, you know, like people used to say that I would like, you know, offer you some money for your thoughts. And she said, well, I'm going to need a whole lot more than a penny. And I'm like, listen to you in inflation conversations. I said, well, how much would you need? And she said, four bucks. And I said, okay, well, so four bucks for your thoughts. And then she's like, well, like, do people actually pay people for their thoughts? I'm like, yes.

Yep, that's what your mom does. That's what you're up. Have you heard of this podcast? Yeah. This is the house that thoughts built, baby. And so your thoughts are very important to me. And I want to listen to them and I want to look at you while you're saying them. And it was just sort of then this conversation about like how connected do we get to people to read the subtleties of communication?

That is a practice. It is. That's a practice. We're not born with that skill. No, you're right. So I think the future is everybody should. be an actor. Can you imagine if we put teachers into the seats of students just one time a year? Yes. I know. If we put police officers in cuffs and put them in the, we used to do this with

our staff at the Children's Hospital and they always thought it was inhumane of me, but I was like, everybody has a few, I need you to be in the lock secure room by yourself and I need you to scream. Right. Feel what that feels like in your body. I need you to go in there and they're like, no. Yeah, right now. Feel what that feels like and I'm not opening that door. I don't care how much you ask. Yeah. And it was a great sort of experience of like, son of a bitch. And so I think it's like that, you know, we're always so busy or disconnected. We don't, the epitome of empathy, right? You know, step out of ours, step into somebody else's for a moment. And I just, I love the gift that acting is. And as you were describing that, I was like, huh, I never really considered how, how impaired that that's going to be. It is. Yeah, I think so. I'd say one thing to you. Like when you were mentioning, you know, acting and how you'll move your hand or how you'll say a word, I do have to say, That's actually like the opposite of the thoughts. It's the, it's actually the freeing of not worrying about it.

And it's so, so the idea of like, if I, once I've embodied a character, I'm now just being. So I don't worry if I, yeah, and that's what's helped me more than anything.

Like, even in the sense of, like, I don't, if I take a bad picture, who cares? Because that picture was a true moment. Like,

so like candid pictures, like what, that's, that's a true moment. And so I don't worry like, do I look, I look good when I cried. Was it the angry face? It doesn't matter because soon as you get into this place where you're no longer worried about what you look like and you're only worried about truth.

Then all these other things actually get to not matter. And that thing is carried into real life. Like if I'm speaking truth, like right now when I just said it, I'm like, oh, look at you're doing with your hands. I didn't, I wasn't thinking about it until like we just talked about that thing. Because this was, this is a true moment. That's what happened. And I love that part of it too. Don't you think that there is, though, a right of passage into that? And I just think about, like, anybody, like, if I took you to your beginning of your career, let's take pickleball, for example. In the beginning, it is very conscious about, okay, how do I throw the ball up? Do I bounce it? Where's my paddle? Where's the thing? And I think about that as I age, you know, just how easy it is for me to step on stage. And people say this, you know, I'm sure they ask you this all the time. Like, how did you get started in this? How do you do this? Like, as a speaker, I really want to be a speaker. And, you know, how many people, you're like, mm-hmm.

And so I don't think about it now, but that's like two decades of thinking about it. Yeah. Of unpacking it and trying it again and doing it and like, oh, fuck, that didn't land. How did I know that didn't land? Well, because I watched it land, you know? So, like, I think there's some interesting pieces to that, like that I never want people to think that like, you know, it's like an overnight success conversation. Nobody's no success, right? You only get to see the polished pieces.

But it's like the ripping apart of it all is actually. actually quite methodical until you get that sweet spot and that flow of just like, I can get on there and just rock it because I'm not so right. No, you're 100% right. Yeah, there's a lot of the things that we do so naturally that we forgot about how much work we've put into them. And yeah, like, it's just like, no, I always have been. That's not true. I've done the thing a lot. I've gotten results I like that continued the thing, trial and error. It's happened. I was talking to someone last night about they were they were talking about mental health and and uh how people just like don't play as much and they started this pottery class and she said it reminded her of being a kid

again just getting her hands dirty and like at how wonderful as we felt after that and then right after that i was like i think i've taken for granted that i have never stopped playing so like i have that that that kid that creative like wanting to explore and try stuff has never left me and And that's something that I haven't, I didn't really put a lot of thought into, but that definitely shaped how I just exist and show up. Like, that's playing is as important as brushing your teeth for me. And so, like, I don't know what my life would look like if I didn't play. If I didn't just draw and sing and dance and spin and just, you know, like, what's over there? That's, it's such an important thing to still play, though. And that's what makes you so great, right? Is the unabashedly sort of, I think,

outwardness of you. And I think that like it's, it's what makes me saddest when I see people who just really have had that squashed. You know, it just speaks to, you know, it's such an experience. There's been some permission to do those things. And again, what I think about why so important it is, why it's so important for me to continue to be in that place is because I can't tell my babies how to do that. I got to show them. That's right. That's right. And why we host podcasts and why we, you know, sit on stages or stand on stages globally and why are we away from our kids and we do those things because I think I think there is a position as an actor, an actress, a speaker, author, whatever. The intent is, I want to show you and to be authentic in that

process. I think that's what we're going to see a big shift in the next little bit, right? Because I think authenticity has always been a thing that, you know, people strive to be. But when you're working at being authentic, you're not authentic. There's no way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's this interesting thing, right? Like to practice your craft for a very long time really gives you the the ability to be authentic in it because it does, yeah. And you have, you know what, and you have confidence in stuff that other people are feeling, but we've played, we've tried the things. This is the other thing. This is why it's nice, right? Like, we've tried a thing, I've gotten feedback and know that it's okay. And a lot of people have, didn't know it was okay.

Didn't know it was okay to be on stage and say, I'm, I'm nervous. I can say that on stage. There's nothing wrong with that because I am. And all of a sudden, they're like, oh, I would be too. We just, we have a little bit of, you know, we already relating. rapport. But yeah, we practice it a lot and get much better at it as we go. Yes. And you're amazing. Okay. One last question. Yes. What gives you hope? What gives you hope? What gives you hope? What gives you hope? What gives you hope? The things that sometimes get people worried like AI. And I'm like, no, no, the world's changing, which means more opportunities. You just have to be, what gets me hope? Everything gives me hope. The things that sometimes get people worried, like, AI. And I'm like, no, no, the world's changing, which means more opportunities.

You just have the idea of like, how can I fit in? Where is there a lack? What can I fix on that? How can I play in this new space? There's hope with the kids right now going more analog and wanted to do things in real life. There's hope and there's just so much opportunity for awesomness available. And I don't, I can't. My hope cup is just jam-packed.

I'm so hopeful and optimistic for human beings in general, even in the face of what we see, of course there's horrible things happening there will be forever but I've hoped that we made the horrible things and we can make amazing things like we have proof of all the above like so what are you going to do which part are you going to be a part of what are you adding to the zeitgeist fear worry pessimism or like hope and action and showing other people so they can contagiously join in there's so many opportunities to make amazing impact and ripples with like a little sprinkle of love and hope I love love and hope and scrape. So that's what that's just that. That's all. Just that. Just that small things. And, and I say this all the time. I mean, I think there's a difference between toxic positivity and being like, it's good. It's good. Everything's fine. We're going to be fine. And really, really, really sinking into this idea that, you know, I say this all the time, which maybe feels like a bit of an oxymoron. But like, I think I've never had so much hope for humanity mostly because the bar is so fucking low. Like it there, there is. There is. There is. There is. There.

There is, I am so excited to be alive in this season because it doesn't take much to remind people that they're magic. And that in and of itself, if you have the privilege to be able to do that and be that and show up for other people, then I know, I know I'm in my good enough space. If I rip, if I feel like waving, I dropped my kids out this morning and I had this thought. So I felt like waving at everybody that I went by. I do this all the time in Old Alberta, Canada. and, you know, I get a 20% return, right? You know, like most people are, like, looking at their phone or they're busy or they're doing whatever. Not bad engagement. It's pretty good.

You know what I mean? I feel like. And I think about the days that I don't want to wave at people. I want to throat punch people. I am, you know, I'm just mad at the universe and I just want to go to bed and I'm just like, I hate everybody and everything. Then I remember that that's not about them. That's about me. And I'm allowed to have those days.

Like, that's perfectly normal. Like then you just sit in your car and be mad and get home and get into your bed and do whatever you want. That is okay. And it is such a great piece of data that when I get into that place, it's actually not about the world collapsing around me. Around me, I'm losing my capacity for good. Yeah. And that's the only reason we're here. I do.

I do agree. It's funny when you're saying that it reminded me of the idea of toxic positivity. 100% I get it. That's not the world I'm in. I actually, though, do find hope and positive. in some of the most negative situations. And one of my favorite things is like when I'm in a really shitty spot, can I say that? Yeah, it's your podcast.

Of course I can. But I'm in like a really shitty spot. It's also a high probability I won't be in that exact spot again. And so then we're talking about data. There's data right there and I can use that data. Now me, I always go back to the idea of playing and creating an art. Like I'm in a highly emotional spot. So I can draw from this place.

I could paint from this place. I can write from this place. I can do things. I won't be in this place again. And if I wait till I feel better, I'm going to be reflecting on a place I was, but not in it in its real potency. So I kind of like when I'm in a really high or a low,

these are areas that I don't live in all the time, but there's something I can do in them that I couldn't do in the other spots. So I always look at those as like opportunities, whether that's writing something, drawing a picture, telling a story. but I'm in a really highly emotive potent spot and I don't like wasting those if that makes sense. So yeah, so for me, I like I use them. I'm not like looking forward to them.

But when they show up, I'm like, this is really cool, fertilized soil I can grow something amazing out of. And I can't fake that. So, yeah, you know. Jesse lives, come on. And I, you know, as we wrap this up, I mean, I was just thinking about this, you know, if you're listening to these words, I want you to know that, you know, I've sat in some dark corners, Jesse with you and talked about some of the hardest days and some of the things you've survived. Some of the things you've had to endure, often on a daily basis, conversations about who you are, what your family is, all of those kind of things.

And still you rise. And I think you were just such an inspiration to, you know, you've been one of my greatest teachers. And I just want you to know, I mean, you're phenomenal. Thank you for visiting us here again, this community. I always know how much they love you. So thank you for this. Thank you for being such a light in this world. And thank you for being my friend.

Jody, thank you for having me on. And look, we're just mirrors for each other. And to be honest, I like how I feel when I hang out with you. And this is why I like hanging out with you. So you provide a wonderful rebound of positivity and hope. And it's great. So anytime, all the time. pickleball court or crib board.

Oh, back at you, back at you. It's on. All right. Thank you, Jesse. Thank you, everybody. Listen, I want you to lean into each other, lean on each other. And I hope you took some great things from this little conversation because I know I did. And I will meet you right back here again next time.