Unlonely with Dr. Jody Carrington - Inclusion is Wellness: Dr. Tiffany Jana

Episode Date: February 22, 2024

In this episode, Dr. Jody and Dr. Tiffany Jana have an incredible discussion explaining all things microaggressions, DEI and subtle acts of exclusion. Learning and curiosity are the whole foundation for this episode.Dr. Tiffany Jana is a highly respected and influential diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) consultant, speaker, and author. As a nonbinary person, they are a trailblazer in the DEI field, advocating for the rights and inclusion of all individuals, regardless of their gender identity, race, sexuality, or other identities. Dr. Jana’s expertise in DEI is extensive, having worked with a wide range of organizations to create more inclusive workplaces and communities. They are known for their intersectional approach, which recognizes and addresses how different forms of oppression intersect, ensuring that their work is inclusive of all individuals and communities. As an author, Dr. Jana has written several groundbreaking books on DEI, including “Overcoming Bias: Building Authentic Relationships Across Differences” and “Subtle Acts of Exclusion: How to Understand, Identify, and Stop Microaggressions”. They are also a highly sought-after speaker, having given keynote addresses and presentations at conferences and events around the world. They are a resource and thought leader for publications and media outlets including Harvard Business Review, Forbes, Business Insider, Inc.com, and NPR.In recognition of their contributions to the field of DEI, Dr. Jana has received numerous awards and honours, including being named one of the Top 100 Leadership Speakers by Inc. Magazine and one of the Most Influential People in Business in Virginia Business Magazine. They continue to be a powerful force for change, inspiring others to create more inclusive and equitable workplaces and communities.InstagramTwitterLinkedinFacebook Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton.

Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. At the beginning of every episode, there will always be time for an acknowledgement. You know, the more we do this, people ask, why do you have to do the acknowledgement and every episode? I got to tell you, I've never been more grateful for being able to raise my babies on a land where so much sacrifice was made. And I think what's really critical in this process is that the ask is just that we don't forget. So the importance of saying these words at the beginning of every episode will always be of utmost importance to me

and this team. So everything that we created here today for you happened on Treaty 7 land, which is now known as the center part of the province of Alberta. It is home of the Blackfoot Confederacy, which is made up of the Siksika, the Kainai, the Pekinni, the Tatina First Nation, the Stony Nakota First Nation, and the Métis Nation Region 3. Our job, our job as humans, is to simply acknowledge each other. That's how we do better, be better, and stay connected to the good. all right my fellow humans come back on. I'm so excited you're here. And listen, I feel like I say this sometimes at the beginning of many episodes, but this one in particular, you better be sitting down. You better listen to the most.

We are going to have one of the best conversations of all time. And I promise you, I'm going to learn so much. And I think you will, too. Dr. Tiffany Janna is joining us today. She is a highly respected and influential diversity, equity, and inclusion, many people say DEI consultant, speaker, author. As a non-binary person, they are a trailblazer in the DEI field, advocating for the rights of inclusion, rights and inclusion of all individuals, regardless of their gender, identity, race, sexuality, or other identities. Dr. Janna's expertise in DEI is extensive.

Having worked with a wide range of organizations to create more inclusive workplaces and communities, they are known for their intersectional approach, which recognizes and addresses the ways in which different forms of oppression intersect, ensuring that their work is inclusive of all individuals and communities. Now, as an author, Dr. Janna has written several groundbreaking books on DEI. We get to talk about these today, including Overcoming Bias, Building Authentic Relationships Across Differences, and Subtle Acts of Exclusion, how to understand, identify, and stop micro aggressions. It's taken me a long fucking time to understand what that word means. And I'm so excited to dive into that because the second edition is coming out. They are also a highly

sought after speaker, having given keynotes and keynote addresses and presentations at conferences and events around the world. They are a resource and thought leader for publications and media outlets, including Harvard Business Review, Forbes, BusinessInsider, Inc. and NPR. In recognition of their contribution to the field of DEI, Dr. Janna has received numerous awards and honors, including being named one of the top 100 leadership speakers by Inc. Magazine and one of the most influential people in business in Virginia Business Magazine. They continue to be a powerful force of change, inspiring others to create more inclusive and equitable workplaces and communities. My fellow humans, they are here in this very podcast with you and me.

Welcome, welcome, welcome. And I got to tell you, here's what I know. People are way more alike than they are different. And part of the best place that I think we're missing so much is that people are hard to hate close up. And part of my question to everybody is, you know, where did this all start for you? Tell us today, Dr. Janna, where do you come from? All right, Dr. Jodi Carrington, I'm going to I'm going to take you around with me to introduce me everywhere because, wait, are you in podcasting?

Your voice is amazing and your enthusiasm is contagious. So thank you. Thank you for having me. Such an honor. Where I come from, I would say I'm an army brat. I grew up in a military family. My father was a, I mean, he's still alive, but he's retired military now. He was a pediatrician in the army.

My mother is like you, behavioral psychologist. So I grew up in a doctor, doctor family. No. So I was born in El Paso, Texas on the border of Mexico. So I actually picked up Spanish first, which is like totally by coincidence, not by heritage. So I was multilingual by the time I was, you know, two. And then we were only there for seven years. Then we moved to Germany and my parents were like, you already speak two languages. What's a third? They put me in German school without speaking a word of the language. Within eight months, I was conversationally fluent within a year.

Well, yeah, within eight months, conversationally within a year, I was reading and writing and holding my own in really high level educational systems. The Bavarian educational system is incredible. And so every weekend that my daddy was not on call, we were in a car or on a plane crossing a border. And they just had us touring around Europe and touring around the world. So by the time I was like 12 years old, I had seen so much of the world. And even in my school systems, like in Germany, there were a lot of Turkish kids and kids from the Czech Republic, et cetera. And I very, very quickly between my experience with people south of the border in Texas and then across Europe, I quickly started to see that, wow, there's all these amazing differences between people. There's so many differences and they are amazing and

glorious and complex from clothes to culture to food, so many things. And I also learned just as quickly that we're more similar than we'll ever be different, that we are all looking for belonging, that we all want to feel loved, that when we are cut, we bleed the same red blood, and that when we cry, we cry the same salty tears. And I felt this so intrinsically as a young person. Now, my mother, I tell people I came to my career the same way that most people on planet Earth do by way of this is what my parents did. My mother has been a trailblazer in DEI since the 80s. She grew up in civil rights world.

She is white passing, but white people think she's white. Black people know she's not, but she's white passing. And so she's been able to move seamlessly through space and time. And she leveraged that and her ability to, you know, understand people with psychology to help create an industry. DEI is a fairly young industry. So she was standing up offices of multicultural affairs and the at universities and colleges and then working with like the national, oh gosh, it's the sciences, the national sciences. I can't remember what the acronym is, but it's one of the national coalitions that puts together different advisory things. And she has been part of this forever. So I was following around behind her in high school while she was administering assessments to the cadets at West Point and doing experiments and things.

And it was just one thing led to another. So I do what mommy does. Wow. What I mean, I'm just in awe of that imprint of what that must have been like. I mean, part of the work that I think about all the time, you know, with with our kids, because I have three, our um, our, our oldest is 13, our twins are 10. Um, I do this most of the time because I want to show them what it looks like, you know, when people say often, you know, like, is, is this the money? Is it the travel? This has got to be so exciting and all that. No, it's fucking hard, but I will do it because my kids are watching and you can't tell anybody how to be anti-racist or kind or inclusive or lovely. You got to show them. And, and I just, I, I cannot imagine what that little human saw through their eyes as they watch these, these two trailblazers. Do you have siblings as well?

I do. I have two brothers, one seven years older and one seven years younger. Whoa. That's a spread. Yeah, I'm the middle child. So many fun times I had keeping all this shit together. I mean, mom was so dope because mom was like every single one of us was her favorite. She's like, oh, son, you're my favorite because you're my first born. Oh, youngest son, you're my favorite because you're're my firstborn. Oh, youngest son, you're my favorite, because you're the baby. And I was the favorite because I was the only daughter. That was amazing. And we all believed her. I bet you did. I can see that. And so then tell me about this journey, then how do we how do we I mean, I mean, I'm there's a gorgeous story in the middle

of there. But I want to know a little bit about that because I love your point. Right. I say this oftentimes on stages. It took me probably in the last decade. Have I only truly understood that our DNA as human beings is ninety nine point nine eight percent the same and that we we all started in the same place first hearing the heartbeats of our mamas. That is the basis of emotional regulation. And somebody fucking decided that one color of skin mattered more than the other. And we will pay the price. I mean, our great, great, great, great, great, great grandbabies will unlearn that forever. And I want to understand what

this story of being in this place has been like for you and getting now to, you know, sort of as you represent so many people in this space as you do your work, tell me about the pains, the growth, all of those things that happen along the way. I mean, at the end of the day, this is a human thing. It's a human story. And while my mother was a trailblazer in the formal aspects of the work, it was watching how she lived that has made the biggest impact on me. We always lived in big, beautiful, fairly opulent homes that were on nice little pieces of land. And there was always at least one guest room. And that guest room was almost always full.

It was full with somebody who had been rejected by their own family. It was full with someone who got pregnant when their parents didn't think they were supposed to. At one point, it was full with young married couples who were trying to do the right thing by their own family. It was full with someone who got pregnant when their parents didn't think they were supposed to. At one point, it was full with young married couples who were trying to do the right thing by their baby, but both their families disowned them. And so my mother and my grandmother before her and my grandfather, like I come from a long legacy of love and care of people who looked out for other people, regardless of the color of their skin. It wasn't always black people. Sometimes it was Hispanic and Latinx people. Sometimes it was white people. My parents didn't give a shit about the color of your skin, your creed, your religion, your national origin, absolutely nothing.

If you were suffering and you were in need and they had something that they could offer, they always did. And to this day, I have always shared my parents with the parentless. I have shared my parents with the people at the margins who just have never been able to feel accepted and the love they've been together. You know, technically, my dad is my stepdad. He's been married to my mom since I was three, but that's my daddy. And my daddy and my mama have been together all these years, and they are still a glowing model of love for and with each other, and also just for all of

humanity. It's an incredible thing to behold. So I do diversity work, have been doing it for 20 years. The second edition of Subtle Acts of Exclusion is out now and ready for you to read and review. And also my work is expanding into something beyond diversity, equity, and inclusion, because I can no longer deny what I've learned in 20 years is that inclusion is wellness. The more inclusive we are, the more whole we are. There is no such thing as wellness, health and wellness, if we are not inclusive of ourselves and all of our disparate parts that we want to reject and shame, and if we are not inclusive of each other. A space that has human beings in it is not well and whole unless everyone is invited and feels safe. And so my transition is not entirely out of diversity, equity, and inclusion. It will always inform what I do. But what I'm seeing now is that I've got to advocate for inclusion being a wellness thing. And frankly, what's just happened with the SCOTUS decision on affirmative action has got corporations

running scared. People are scared to invest in their DEI. They're divesting in a really big way. And that's going to have some serious backlash because inclusion is wellness. If you don't take care of people based on those identities and the ways that they're left behind, they will not be well. And if they are not well, you're not going to get productivity. Listen, it is a prerequisite to productivity. It is a prerequisite for your ability to serve, to produce, to have access to empathy. And I think that is brilliant because how are we going to sell this to organizations and corporations around the world? And I think that's the idea is that you, your ability. So let me just be clear or ask you

this. So would you say if I want to be inclusive, one of the biggest ingredients to this for me is to be able to be in a good place myself, to be regulated, to be well. That is my first order of business. It is not what I serve in an organization, what I even do for my family. It is, are we working with the individual to look after you? Not just like self-care bullshit, but this idea of being regulated in your own body. And integrated in your own body, right? Because if you are not regulated in your own body. And integrated in your own body, right? Because if you are not regulated in your own body and if you are riddled with fear and shame,

you externalize that, right? If I'm afraid of myself, if I am afraid, if I have a scarcity mindset, if I have unresolved trauma that I am unable to or unwilling to examine, then everything around me is a threat. Then yes, it's a threat. And of course I can embrace inclusion and I'm going to make you feel uncomfortable. I'm uncomfortable. So I'm going to make you feel uncomfortable. I'm defending a very small space that I think

is a zero sum game. So I'm going to push you off my square. Oh, and how much does exposure have to do with that? How much does experience, you know, as I, as I listened to you, you know, I grew up in this, I grew up in a really like white, straight, able bodied, extremely racist little town in the middle of, you know, privileged Alberta, Canada. And I think about that as I watch our children and the experiences. I mean, I never saw a person of color until I was in grade three. And I think about that as I watch our children and the experiences. I mean, I never saw a person of color until I was in grade three. And I think about the exposure, the importance of people are hard to hate close up experience, right? Is what are you noticing in this space right now?

What helps industry, community? How do we move this needle quicker? Because our babies are dying, our people are feeling so isolated. There's a loneliness epidemic, says Dr. Vivek Murthy, right? So tell me about what are some of these conversations that we're having now in such urgency to be able to sort of not add to this divisiveness? Well, listen to the young people. The young people, I mean, I love me some older adults, but older adults, I'm feeling older adulthood coming on and I'm understanding how easy it is to get stuck in your ways. I'm getting tired of keeping up with this with technology. I'm just getting tired. But what I know is that the younger folks are growing up in some of the most diverse cohorts in history. And they are far more culturally fluent. They are less likely to get canceled. They know what's up. They know how to create space for people with disabilities.

They know how to not disrespect their peers of different stripes. So we've got to listen to the young people and stop sidelining them in institutional capacities. Everyone wants the young people to sit down, shut up and pay their dues. Absolutely not. Older folks need to be mentored by younger folks because younger folks know where it's at. The only reason I'm not canceled every day out in public is because my 16 year old keeps me in check in the house and tells me every day exactly what I just said and did wrong. And I'm like, yo, I wrote the book on microaggressions. What you telling me? And she's like, I'm telling you that you can't say that. The holidays are coming, and nobody wants to deal with seasonal bugs making their way through the family. That's where Maple comes in. No more scrambling for open clinics during holiday festivities.

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with Peloton. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. I love that. So I wrote a book called Kids These Days because I hear this all the time, right? Kids These Days are this. Kids These Days are that. And I truly believe that we are playing in a world right now. This set of rules that was established for how we operate was created for a world that no longer exists. And I often say to people, I have never, I've assassinated over a thousand kids in this country. I've never not one time met a bad kid, not one time. And I have met a lot of kids who are emotionally dysregulated, who don't know they matter because we've never been this disconnected. I mean, it is estimated that our great grandparents looked at their

children 72 percent more of the time than we look at our babies. So it's devastating how you I mean, it is the impetus of loneliness expedited by three years of the pandemic, the pandemic, the pandemic for the physical safety of our communities we've separated. And in just one generation, the explosion of our access to technology. Now, technology isn't the problem. How we use it becomes the issue. And the hardest thing we will ever do is look into the eyes of the people we love. And we've never had so many exit rooms. Right. We've never had so many exit rooms right we've never had so many exit rooms so my question in addition to that is then how do we how do we bring people back closer together because it you know i i'd love your opinion

on this too my my biggest concern with social media is that it's not social you get to collect all of the people that you agree with and that you are right about. And so you fucking believe whatever you, but because you, you gather all the ones that say, yes, this is bad. Do not use anybody's pronouns. Kids are changing their bodies before they even give consent to do so. All of you, you gather all the data to suggest that we don't even have then a place where then you are questioned in that way. So the divisiveness is so such a thing that is so easy to be able to fall into because we don't get those challenges. We don't get those opportunities to have conversations or other than other than with our children. Yeah. So social media is I agree with you.

Social media is a great tool for business. And if you don't have a business, then you are the business and you are actively being manipulated. I personally turn my social media off. I do not watch the news. I will curate things that I read from time to time or wait until the world tells me what it is I need to know. And I'll decide because I'm not here to be brainwashed and I'm not here to be intentionally kept in a low vibration and depressed so that the system can manipulate me. I mean, that is the crux of my conspiracy theory is, yes, of course, all of the governments want us to be miserable and depressed and fearful because they can create, they can divide and conquer. Loneliness serves the system. Loneliness serves that which would oppress all of us. And

oppression is not just for historically marginalized people. The system wants to oppress poor people. The system wants to oppress white people. The system wants to oppress anyone stupid enough to stare at their phone all day. And sorry if I called you, that's the unkind language. That's a subtle act of exclusion. We'll talk about that later. I'm going to correct that to less ableist language and say, anyone who is vulnerable enough to stare at their phone all day, to stare at the television all day, it is a pacifier and it is a mechanism for us to self-soothe because we don't have better tools. So the first thing that we need are better tools to handle what we're actually dealing with, because right now we're suppressing it. And that suppression

is keeping us lonely, keeping us fearful and pushing everybody out to the margins. So I'm so I'm so on fire about that topic that I forgot the core of the question. Go ahead. I mean, I'm over here. I mean, for those of you that can't watch this video, I'm like, and and so then the question for me, because I mean, I let's sink into a little before we what, you know, before we jump into what we do about it. When we talk about things like micro microaggressions, can you define that for this audience? Can you tell me about why that's so powerful? This community that we're building here is one that I've never seen so open. So so willing to say, I don't fucking know.

So I haven't even said anything. I don't want to get it wrong. What is a pronoun? I don't want to say it and get it wrong. So I'm just not going to say anything at all. And so I always, I always want this to be the safest place where we can learn what some of that stuff means. So can you give me the one-on-one of that beautiful book you've created? And I'm going to go back and answer the question that I now remember you asking. Oh, I don't know what it was. Right? How we could not push each other away like that. And to me, it's proximity and narrative.

We need to be able to tell our stories and listen to other people's stories. Because like you said, it's hard to hate people up close. So we need to break down that loneliness and listen to people and be present with people and look at people and really look at them, look at them, look at them

closely so that we can connect to that humanity within them. And that will begin to break things down significantly because when you're hating on an abstract caricature, it's just impersonal. But when someone's in front of you, I've been the only black friend for a lot of people for like now I'm not anymore, but for my entire childhood and for most of my adult life, I was the exception. I was, well, you're not like one of those black people. Oh, well, you're different. Oh, well, I don't think of you as a black person.

Oh, and by the way, I'm queer, but I'm straight if I'm with a guy, right? I'm not pansexual unless you see me with someone who's assigned female at birth. Also very confusing. So a microaggression is microaggression was the original term. And that is essentially a, a, some kind of a slight that is, it can be verbal, it can be action. It can be written that, um, just makes somebody feel, uh, some kind of way to get somebody in their feelings. It is offensive, um, not necessarily illegal. And it. And it was called microaggression. And I wrote the book, Subtle Acts of Exclusion with my friend and colleague, Dr. Michael Barron, because the term microaggression, one, micro implies and states overtly that it's small and

small sometimes feels insignificant. And the kinds of microaggressions that people are on the receiving end of happen so often. And they're touching on our wounded places. So they do not feel small at all. People telling me, oh, well, I don't think of you as black, doc. That's offensive because I am black. And that's an important part of my identity. I understand that what you're saying is that you don't experience that in a negative way.

But what you're also saying without realizing it is that you have negative expectations of my people and that I don't fit your stereotype of my people. And that is a very problematic thing to say. So we wanted to basically be the PR agency, the PR firm for microaggressions and rebranded the term because the other problem is it is the second half, aggression. It's got aggression in the name of the nomenclature in the terminology itself and just like if i say oh my gosh you're a racist nobody nobody responds to something that that to someone telling them that they're aggressive or you're a racist in a way that says oh my god shoot you nailed, yes. Right. That's so true.

Exactly. So we're like, let's rebrand this. Let's return this. And we went with, let's just call it what it is. They are subtle. They're not smaller and significant. They're subtle. They are acts. They can be verbal. They can be nonverbal. They can be behavior. And they, what do they do? They serve to exclude people. Ah, okay. And and how much I mean, and I, I'd like to just sort of talk about the consciousness of the subtle acts of exclusion. Because I think that so many times, you know, people, you know, get defensive, and they're like, Are we allowed to say that? Oh, I didn't realize that that that was that was that a bad thing? or, you know, and here's the issue.

I want to just sort of notice why those things, when we point them out, feel like there's so much of them for many people who've been privileged, because it's just innate in the way that we talk about things. Like so many times people have said to me, do you know what that fucking means? Uh, oh, gosh, no. Uh, OK. So and then it just feels like it's it's this place of like okay can you ever get it right which i know is so ridiculous as it comes out of my mouth because i'm like i'm embarrassed that i would even say those things i hear that all the time can you oh sorry you're not going to be sure if you're going to get it right fine fuck you i can't even drive down the freeway all right so i like i i get that i i guess i want to just for our listeners in particular

when what are some of the things that give me some examples of some of the things that many of us that you see people just shocked at that just happens every day? Like one of my favorite ones is and this is in the book and we talk about it all the time is so I'm a public speaker like you, all over the world speaking. And, you know, inevitably after a talk, somebody is going to walk up to me and say, oh, my God, Dr. Janna, I really enjoyed your talk. You are just so articulate. That doesn't sound like an insult at all. That sounds like a compliment. That sounds like you are well-spoken and I loved your talk. Historically, calling a black person or a person of color articulate, it's an insult because again, just like you're not, I don't think of you as black calling me articulate when I'm literally

paid hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to speak. Of course I know how to talk, right? What you're actually saying is I didn't expect someone who looks like you to talk like that. It's not even in a consciousness. So I don't personally get offended because I understand the instinct, the mechanism and how it works, but we have to educate ourselves on the historical slides, right? An articulate Negro was something that was highly coveted in the past because the Negroes do not know how to speak well, right? So that it's, it's a thing. The other one is every meeting ever that is mixed in gender representation, every meeting ever we see, we saw historically men speaking over femme presenting people, femme presenting people

saying things that are brilliant, being completely ignored. And then a masculine presenting person saying the exact same thing and everyone fawning all over them like they are the most brilliant thing in the world. Assuming that the woman in the meeting is going to take the notes. Oh, Kathy, will you just go ahead and take the notes because our secretary's not here. Hon, could you get me some coffee? These are the things that are happening all day. Like, is it a crime? No. Is it the worst thing in the world? No. But when you represent one or more marginalized identities, I am five times intersectional, right? When you represent

one, much less more, the extent to which these things are happening, it's daily, right? So there's nothing that we almost called the book, there's nothing micro about microaggressions. I love that. And I mean, let's even dive into that intersectionality a little bit. Because again, this was a huge learning thing for me, is that it's cumulative. So if we look at things, I mean, and I'll just tell you this, in my very sort of brief understanding of this is that like, we look at the the big things that um you know seem to be the safest to be in this world white and straight and able-bodied um from a you have money uh when we look at anybody who fits outside of those things right um what you

you then get to add them up that That's what intersectionality is about, because they're cumulative. It's not that just Yeah, so can you tell me a little bit about that? Is that is that am I getting that right? Yeah, intersectionality. Absolutely. So, you know, there is when you look at the singular lane of race, right? Let's let's just say black and white for the sake of it, right? Then you've got one thing going on here, Perhaps you are white and you have white privilege. I'm black and I have privilege. And that's what my TED talk is about. Check it out.

Yes, yes, it is brilliant. I'll put the link in the show notes. Keep going. The power of privilege. So let's say you're black and you experience racism. Where these things intersect, right, they're cumulative. They can be cumulative in the aspirational and they can be cumulative in the negative. And the challenge when you are a person who

is a part of an underappreciated population is something called attributional ambiguity. I can walk out into the world. And I can have I just had this experience the other day, the person that I'm dating right now is a trans masculine white person. You know, they just appear to be assigned male at birth. No one knows the difference. I was close to them in a store, the retail clothing store, and a white lady walked up to me and said, you don't work here, do you? I haven't actually gotten that in years, but because I'm now dating a transmasculine white person who does not look like they belong with me, she assumed that I worked there.

So I can think to myself, okay, is this racism? Was she just not an observant person? So attributional ambiguity is sometimes bad or frustrating things happen, subtle acts of exclusion or SAE happen, And we don't actually know why it happened, but we're making kind of a reasonable inference that it might be race. I wasn't wearing a uniform, but I was brown and I was talking to a white guy that didn't look like they belonged with me. So when you don't know what you can attribute it to, maybe somebody says something that seems a little hateful or sharp. Is it because they're racist or is it because they're just having a bad day?

I don't know. And then when you stack those things on top of each other. Right. When it's a man who says something or cuts me off or whatever, is it because they did they they have no respect for women? Is it because I'm a black person? Is it because I'm queer. I don't know attributional ambiguity. So the, the intersectionality creates a massive load of stress onto people who are experiencing the downside of that. And then the flip side is the case, you know, when you stack the when you stack the intersectionality of privilege on top of it, on top of itself, these are just aspects that it's not. The thing I like to say is that also not a crime. It is not a crime to be privileged. It is not a crime to be wealthy. It is not a crime to be white. There's nothing innately or inherently wrong with that. I do

invite people to wear their whiteness well, to leverage their privilege well and see how they can help other folks advance and have a better time. But when privilege intersects, it just creates a much smoother ride through life. That doesn't mean it's a perfect ride. That doesn't mean you have no problems. That doesn't mean you didn't earn anything that you have. It just means that in many cases, you're going to have an easier time. And I can give you an example. In 2019, I was trying to raise money for innovative technology, artificial intelligence that could measure unconscious bias, that could measure, map, and improve organizational culture through an equity lens and measure the equity gap between experiences and then close that gap through interventions that I've developed over the 25

years. I was blue haired, queer, and brown when I went to Silicon Valley trying to do that in 2019 before George Floyd was murdered. Do you know how much money I raised? And let me tell you, I had an MVP. It was in the market. It was profitable. So I had the boxes checked. You know how much money the white guys gave me? Goose egg. Motherfucking goose egg. oh my heart i were six foot tall white and male i and and there actually is a case study reference somebody there's tons of data and they 57 million dollars first first one out the gate yeah and people say this all the time oh well it mustn't have been it must have been but let me tell you listeners i mean this is what i i i have fearfully but relentlessly stepped into this space more recently because it is like I here's here's what I don't know. OK, so I grew up in this country. I got a Ph.D. in this country and I never not one in Canada.

I never not one time learned about the residential school system, despite the fact that indigenous peoples in this country have experienced a cultural genocide. Not one time. Not one time. Never did I ask in my privilege why 72% of kids in care, in foster care in this province are indigenous, but they only make up 10% of the population. Not one time did I go, what the fuck happened here? I didn't because I didn't have to. I was like, because they are prone to addiction. And obviously they just don't know how to spend money. So it's probably no questioning of that. OK, so here's here's the thing that I want to just really, know how to spend money. So it's probably the best. No questioning of that, okay? So here's the thing that I wanna just really,

I think, hit home, is that the ask so much in this space is about simply reflecting on the things we don't know. That when we get feedback, be open to it. When you understand, and we, I'm talking collectively here, you can do whatever the fuck you want, but this is what I think about. I don't know so many things. When I make a reference to we're getting renovations in our

house right now i called it the master bedroom okay i did i i am a 48 year old fucking phd i've published three books and i am calling my room a master bedroom. Did you know? Nobody. Not one time did I have a conversation until somebody said to me, do you know why it's referred to the master bedroom as the master bedroom? Because that I mean, right. This is what this is what I learned. And you please correct me that in the time of slavery, of course, that's where the master would be. So they got the biggest bedroom. That is where, you know, the white people would stay. This is why it was the sanctimonious sacred place that looked better than everybody else's room in the house.

Right. Holy fuck. Can you talk, can we talk about it as the main bedroom or the adult place or the, you know, that subtle bedroom, whatever. But it's like,

okay, I, oh my God, I didn't know that. I didn't mean, okay, no fucking doubt. I didn't intend to hurt anybody. But now that I know that it is like, OK, I oh, my God, I didn't know that I didn't mean, OK, no fucking doubt. I didn't intend to hurt anybody. But now that I know that it is about the openness to that, that is really so critically that black is the ace of spades.

The totem pole that all of these conversations that people then are like, OK, then I'm just scared. I'm not going to talk about anything. Don't be a fucking asshole the only ask here is that when we learn about those subtle what is the word subtle exclusion subtle acts of exclusion that you just want to be better and do better the intention if you're doing it intentionally to hurt somebody then fuck off i don't want you here anyway yeah for sure like that we're not even talking there's no blame one of my favorite chiefs on the planet, Chief Cadmus DeLorn has taught me so much about this. I'm not, I'm not interested in your guilt. I, I am not interested in how sorry you fucking are about how wrong you're going to get in, how hard this is

going to be for you. This isn't about guilt anymore. This is about being better. Or maybe it never was about being better and doing better. Is this, tell me about that. Does that, does that land? Absolutely. So this is, this me about that. Does that does that land? Absolutely. So this is this is why this book went into second edition. Subtle Acts of Exclusion has won two international awards. It is a bestseller and it is really approachable. Like my approach is all about kindness and grace. Like I'm not here to shame anyone. I'm not here to make anyone feel bad about themselves. I'm looking I am a light skinned black person. I got so much white DNA that I can't talk too much shit about white people because I'm not here to shame anyone. I'm not here to make anyone feel bad about themselves. I'm looking, I am a light-skinned and black person. I got so much white DNA that I can't talk too much shit about white people because I'm talking shit about half of myself, right?

So I am here for the reconciliation. I'm here for the learning. And I'm here for the recognition that, you know, and if you've heard me talk before, you've heard me say it, but I'll never stop saying it. Most of us are waking up in the morning and looking at ourselves in the mirror and being like, I believe that I'm a good person. Right. And if you believe or you're trying to be a better person tomorrow than you are today, then I can go ahead and absolve you of your past tense white guilt. But your future tense, your today and your tomorrow, I need you to accept accountability for who you are becoming. And if you are growing into goodness and you are growing into compassion and grace, then you have

a responsibility to make sure that you're not carrying forward old white supremacist narratives, old racist narratives that are hurting people through your subconscious and unconscious actions, things that you're not even aware that you're doing. I think we have a responsibility to do the work and it's never done. I'm sorry. I can't give you a certificate of completion and anti-bias and anti-racism. But the nice thing about my books is that they're all written. They're all written in very plain English. I ain't trying to be no academic superstar. I'm trying to make sure that a sixth grader can actually pick it up and read it. They're fast reads. They're easy reads. The concepts are very simple to understand. And once you see it, you cannot unsee it. You will see, hear, and experience subtle acts of exclusion all the time. And you'll

have the tools to be able to interrupt your own. Like when I referred to people as stupid, I interrupted my own subtle act of exclusion in the moment. And I have to do that every day. I will see it. I will hear it. And I will know what to do. We frame it as the subject of the SAE. So that's who it's about. The initiator of the SAE, that's the person who said it or did the thing. And then we talk about bystanders versus allies. A bystander or a witness just sees it. An ally makes a move in the direction of trying to correct it or trying to make sure that people are okay. And we talk about this from so many different perspectives. Are you a leader? Are you an individual contributor? Are you just a

parent? Whoever you are in the world, there is a place for you to find yourself in this book and understand how to move through the world without being terrified of opening your mouth. Because we also talk about what do you do when somebody says, oh, hey, do you know that what you just said is racist? Like the biggest message I have for you on that is that is a gift. Like if right now, Jodi, I say to you, oh, sweetie, that term, like that doesn't work for a lot of people and here's why. I am putting my relationship with you on the line, your respect for me on the line. And when a person of marginalized identity takes their sweet breath and their sweet moments

to share with you how you could improve, that means that they believe in you. That means that you are behaving out of character. That means that they expected more from you because you know what I say to a whole ass racist for whom I have no time and respect when they do that? Nothing. I say nothing.

I love that. I don't waste my breath. It's not worth it. It's not worth it for you. Right. And I think if you're worth it for people to have these conversations with you feel as best as you can. And here's the thing I often

say, like, if you feel, I mean, there's a defensiveness that will come oftentimes when people say things like, Hey, that's not happening that you can feel that that is not, you will not be devoid of defensiveness. Some of the times, the three words that helped me oftentimes when I get myself into these situations, when I fuck it up all the time, I will say things like, Ooh, tell me more. And I, I mean, I generally, I'm usually trying to take a breath to be like, fuck off. I didn't, that's not what I meant. Okay. Because the defensive, I thought I was an ally. I'm a fucking idiot. Like, you know, so, so there's all of that stuff going on, which is, I'm not interested in that. Tell me more. So

you take your own breath and then you are there to learn just as much as I teach on this platform or you teach in your respective job or as a parent or whatever you are, be in this position of learning and you can take that information and do with it what you want. That's right. That is your own story. If you want to continue to stay in your place of like, no, that's not what I intended or that's not how it lands in my world. Okay, that's okay. We are looking for so much of this place of curiosity and to be able to put it down. Tell me more. You know, one of my favorite,

like very, very present ones now is the thing around the pronouns, right? Tell me more. Someone in your organization, someone in your life shares their pronouns. You say the pronouns wrong. And you realize that you said it wrong or someone corrects you. A very common response is, oh, my God, oh, my God, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry.

You make it about you in that moment. You embarrass all of us in that moment. Like, acknowledge the mistake and just a simple apology, I'm sorry. And then moving forward, using the correct pronouns as often as you can is sufficient, but you make it about you. And then you also embarrass the person by making a big thing out of it. Don't need to do that. Just apologize and do better moving forward. And that's how we can move forward in grace is we can acknowledge the failure. I love tell me more because I want to learn and then move forward. And you can go cry with your white friends later.

So terrible. So terrible. OK, so I have a question about your own story then. So you follow in mom's footsteps. You get into this place. You get your doctorate. You you talked about being a mother. How did this journey of gender identity, you know, how landing in this place of, you know, understanding your queerness,

can you tell me that part of your story? From the perspective of being a parent or a child? Well, either. I mean, so my mom, my mom is the dopest. she's dr deborah egerton and she her first book was uh no justice no peace k-n-o-w-k-n-o-w no justice no peace she's the world's foremost authority on the intersection of diversity and the enneagram so she's absolutely fascinating but she told me she used to tell me when i was young she'd say you know you have a very masculine way of of interacting with the world and i'd be like what what does that mean she's like it doesn't mean anything she's just And she'd say, you know, you have a very masculine way of interacting with the world. And I'd be like, what? What does that mean?

She's like, it doesn't mean anything. She's just like, you know, people move through the world in different ways and you have a very masculine outlook. And she was just she was making me aware of it. And it was completely value neutral. It was just like this might be useful to you. I was never in the closet. There was no closet to be in because my mother loved me and

accepted me no matter what I showed her. Now, if I stepped out of the moral line, if I, you know, lie, cheat, steal, I absolutely was made aware that that was not okay in my household. But outside of lie, cheat, steal, you know, it was, you know, just show me who you are. And I raised my children the same way. My job as a parent is to, is to create enough latitude and room for them to show me who they are and support that journey. However, it ebbs and flows, right? And when they're little, it's okay. You're into spiders. We're going to go research spiders. We're going to go to the, you know, to the nature center. We're going to go to the library and look up all the spiders all the way to, you know, what you're an artist. Great. Let's, let's do music lessons. Let's do all the thing. I don't care

what it is. It's not my decision to judge their life and their interests and tell them to be a doctor. Show me who you are. And I'm going to use every emotional and financial and physical resource at my disposal to support that journey. I don't care how many times it changes. It's your fucking journey. And as a result, my children are all the most amazing actualized. I just fucking love my kids, but that's another story. No, no. I want to know how many, how many children do you have? Three. Oh, okay. I want to hear about that too. I'm currently in Vermont visiting my 24 year old non-binary child who graduated Harvard and just moved up here to Burlington living their best life.

26 year old live. My 26 year old lives a half a mile behind me in Richmond, Virginia, engineer graduated VCU creative dungeon master for dungeons and dragons playing video. Like used to be on video games all the time. And I was like, your face is going to get stuck there. You can't do that all the time. And my little, my little nine, 10 year old boy said to me, mama, I'm gonna figure out how is going to get stuck there. You can't do that all the time. And my little nine, 10-year-old boy said to me, mama, I'm going to figure out how to make money

with this computer. And I was like, you know what? This boy done figured out how to make money with that computer. Yes! Living his best life at 26 in a whole little bachelor pad. And then I have a 16-year-old polymath who is on her way to conservatory

because she writes, she draws, she sings with perfect pitch, plays six or seven instruments, just an absolute phenom. And I let them go where they want to go. My mama taught me how to do that. And my mama, at one point, I just kind of randomly said, because she was actually in this story I tell sometimes, but she was a behavioral psychologist. She's Roman Catholic and also very spiritually open and accepting. And she said to, she was talking to my daddy and I was eavesdropping. And she said to my dad that a young Catholic boy was queer and that he was trying to figure out how to reconcile it. And she said that her advice to him was that that was a choice and he needed to make a different one. And at 11 years old, I raised my hand and I was like, hey, mama. And she's like, what? I said, I don't think it's a choice. And she said, oh, you know, what makes you think that?

I said, because I've liked girls and boys since kindergarten, since I knew there was a difference between girls and boys. But I also knew very quickly what the world was OK with. So I focus on boys, but I, I can see how people feel about it. And I would never choose this. I would rather just like boys. And my mom did not, there was no judgment. There was no, what, nothing. She just said, huh. And she immediately changed her narrative. And she went on a journey from, well, it's a cross to bear to now she's completely like watching my mom navigate pronouns and accept me as non-binary was the most awesome thing

in the world. And she has gone the complete journey. But never once did my parents ever make me feel less than or unaccepted because of how I showed up in the world. My mom, my dad is the son of a Baptist preacher, a Southern Baptist preacher. My mom is Roman Catholic. Same with religion. They didn't tell me what to pick. They just said, this is your journey. We can't tell you one is right. Cause we don't believe the same thing. That's your journey. Go out and figure out who you are.

And I've always shown them who I am and they've loved every wild oscillation that I've presented to them. Oh my gosh. I, what, how important is that, that base? I mean, the parenting platform is, you know, one that I hope I can expand as I grow older because I have heard, I have heard tell of the things that parents go through. And I have never been through any of that with my children. Um, I have loved them unconditionally. I have supported them as my parents did with myself and my brothers. And we didn't have any shenanigans because our platform was strong. I know that as long as I'm doing my best and I'm moving in love and I'm being kind and not being an asshole and robbing and stealing and lying, that I had support at home, that

I had people who didn't question me or not love me because of who I am. It's the most important thing ever. Like I did a course on LinkedIn learning called Courage is Your Superpower. And that this reality that I was raised in has everything to do with a set of superpowers that I have that have allowed me to walk through the world with like my parents raised me in such a way.

I laugh and I say, I was raised like a middle-class white boy. My parents told me the American dream was, you know, we're going to give you the best education that we can afford, go forth and do whatever you want, have whatever you want. And I was like, this America, I can do whatever. And I have done whatever ever since. Yes, you have. You're showing me don't tell me what I can't do. Oh my God. You're showing us all how to do it. I mean, I cannot even tell you how much I love you right now.

So Dr. Janna, what is next? What is next for you? What do we need to know about what's next for you? I mean, I don't know if anyone needs to know, but I have always followed my heart and followed my passion. And I will continue to do that. I have always loved the stage and the screen. I was a full time actor and painter in my 20s. I actually started my company because I was divorced, single mom and needed to survive and do the things. I just was

looking for a side hustle. My side hustle turned into a multimillion dollar enterprise. I got real busy. And I said to myself, like with painting, I said, I spent my twenties running away from rooms that only had me in them. And I said, I was, I mean, I was selling my paintings for like $9,000 a pop. Like I was a very good painter. I said, I don't like being alone in a room, but one day when I'm older, I will. And when that day comes, I'm going to pick up a paintbrush. I have picked up a paintbrush. I have now have a studio in my garage. I stopped acting because I was starting to get opportunities to move to LA, to New York, to Atlanta, but I had three kids and mom was my number one gig. Mom was the most important thing to me. And I had never really met a celebrity who had super well-adjusted kids.

That wealth and that privilege is toxic. And I said, I'm going to raise my kids and get them to a point where they don't need me like they do now. And when that day comes, I'm going right back to acting. And so I just had my first film premiere at the Africana Film Fest. I'm actively auditioning for all the things. And now I have this amazing, cause like when I was acting 20 years ago, I was doing a lot of theater in Richmond and it was servant, slave, maid, housekeeper, bark. I mean, it was just all of these really kind of like, you know, I was very limited. Subservient roles. It's subservient roles. And I was like, Richmond, you know what? Screw you. And now I am non-binary.

I have blue hair all the time. I'm showing up and like everyone is like you can get you can get canceled if you if you cast non-queer people in queer roles, if you cast non-trans people in trans roles. So now I'm getting cast more often, not only because I have a resume and talent, but I also represent demographics that need to be visible. So now I want to tell the stories of all of my intersectionality in ways that are uplifting and joyful and educational. Oh, come on. You are a massive, I'm such an inspiration. I am just so grateful that this community has gotten to meet you and know a little bit about you. Where can they find more?

Where's our best place to find you? Best place is probably Tiffany, jonna.com. I go by doc jana because doc is, you know, the doctoral honorific is non-gendered, which is awesome. So I use doc, but tiffanyjana.com, that is my birth name. That's how I'm going to be indexed as an author forever. But I centralize a lot of things there. So lots of wonderful things coming up and I'm super excited. Oh, I am so excited to watch you do these incredible things and be the hugest fan. And I know this community is just going to embrace all of it as you as well. So thank you for joining us. It is truly just been an honor. Oh, thank you so much. This was way more fun than I even expected. Let's hang out again, Jodi.

Yes, we are now best friends. I am on my way to Virginia. I'm on my way. Oh, to the rest of you, my other best friends, thanks for joining us today. And I cannot wait to see you again real soon. Take care of each other and we'll be back next week. The Everyone Comes From Somewhere podcast is produced by the incredibly talented and handsome team at Snack Labs, Mr. Brian Seaver, Mr. Taylor McGilvery, and the infamous Jeremy Saunders. The soundtracks that you hear at the beginning of every episode were created by Donovan Morgan. Our executive producer is Marty Piller. Our PR big shooters are Des Veneau and Barry Cohen.

Our agent, my manager, Jeff Lowness from the Talent Bureau. And emotional support, of course, is provided by, relatively speaking, our children. For the record, I am a registered clinical psychologist in Alberta, Canada. The content created and produced in this show is not intended as specific therapeutic advice. The intention of this podcast is to provide information,

resources, education, and maybe even a little bit of hope. Transcription by CastingWords a strength program. They've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton.

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