Unlonely with Dr. Jody Carrington - Just Sit in it With Us: Sam Taylor

Episode Date: April 25, 2024

In this podcast Dr. Jody and Sam dig into the heavy stuff about being present and your body's alignment when going through hard things. Sam has an incredible light that we were all so drawn to and has taught us and so many others the importance of community.Sam Taylor has a bunch of identifiers she's picked up along the way like mom, wife, writer, yoga instructor - also on the list is fiercely loyal friend and adept matchmaker (that applies to romantic set-ups and also finding you the best plumber). She is a lifelong advocate for the underdog, and never passed a wild lilac bush without sticking her entire head into it.Lately though, her label has been cancer mom. In the summer of 2022 her 10yr old daughter was diagnosed with Rhabdomyosarcoma. Almost two years post treatment, her daughter is on the other side and now Sam's need is to make sure every oncology parent finds their life preservers - so The Deep C Podcast began. A space where Sam speaks to other cancer parents and shares these hard, enlightening and heroic stories.Follow The Deep C Here:Apple PodcastSpotifyInstagram Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

If you're at a point in life when you're ready to lead with purpose, we can get you there. The University of Victoria's MBA in Sustainable Innovation is not like other MBA programs. It's for true changemakers who want to think differently and solve the world's most pressing challenges. From healthcare and the environment to energy, government, and technology, it's your path to meaningful leadership in all sectors. For details, visit uvic.ca slash future MBA. That's uvic.ca slash future MBA. At the beginning of every episode, there will always be time for an acknowledgement.

You know, the more we do this, people ask, why do you have to do the acknowledgement and every episode? I got to tell you, I've never been more grateful for being able to raise my babies on a land where so much sacrifice was made. And I think what's really critical in this process is that the ask is just that we don't forget. So the importance of saying these words at the beginning of every episode will always be of utmost importance to me and this team. So everything that we created here today for you happened on Treaty 7 land, which is now known as the center part of the province of Alberta. It is home of the Blackfoot Confederacy, which is made up of the Siksika,

the Kainai, the Pekinni, the Tatina First Nation, the Stony Nakota First Nation, and the Métis Nation Region 3. Our job, our job as humans, is to simply acknowledge each other. That's how we do better, be better, and stay connected to the good. Oh my goodness, friends. Welcome back. Welcome in. All of you amazing humans. I hope that wherever you find us this day, that your shoulders are dropped and your heart is open because we're going to dig in to some important conversations today about grief and cancer and what it means to gather around that fucking word called resilience. And I'm just so excited about this guest.

The producer of this podcast, The Sick Boys, one of the sick boys is named Jeremy Saunders. And he said to me, I really need you to meet this woman. She's phenomenal. And she's got such insight that I think your community needs. I just feel like your community might need it. So if you found yourself here today, it's because you need to be. And I'm so grateful for it. But I want you to listen. I mean, to meet this woman. Her name is Sam Taylor. Sam Taylor, like all of us, she's got a bunch of identifiers. She said that she's picked up along the way, like mom, wife, writer, yoga instructor, and also on the list is fiercely loyal friend and adept matchmaker. That's going to be fun. That applies to romantic setups and

also finding you the best plumber. She's a lifelong advocate for the underdog and she's never passed a wild lilac bush without sticking her entire head in it. So, you know, you can already understand that we're going to be best friends for life. So lately though, her label has been Cancer Mom. In the summer of 2022, her 10-year-old daughter was diagnosed with rhabdomyosarcoma. Rhabdomyosarcoma, a word I hope very few people ever have to learn the perfect pronunciation for. If you are an oncology parent listening, you know that when your child is diagnosed, it feels like you've been ripped from life on land and suddenly submerged deep into the ocean. From a place where you could breathe to a place where there is no air. I love that line. That's Sam's words. And I think that her understanding about what happens to your body in a time where the people you love's bodies are being ravaged by a disease is what I really want to talk about today.

And I think that, you know, cancer parents have very few places to land. And so today we want, I mean, she's just so good at this, a conversation, a connection, a witnessing from a parent who has been there. She's two years post-treatment. Their daughter is on the other side. And now her mission is to make sure every oncology parent finds their life preservers. She created a podcast called The Deep Sea Podcast. That's where it all began, inspired by her baby girl. It's a place for parents, caregivers, community, and professionals to come together to share the

deepest truths of caring for a child through cancer. And I think that today I want to learn all of it from you. And I want everybody to, I don't know, find themselves in this story because there's so much when the people we love aren't okay, we're not okay. And I don't know that we talk a lot about that. So this beautiful love story that's about to unfold here, I need to know where it all started. Because the difference between empathy and judgment often, as you know, Sam is really understanding somebody's story. So tell me Sam Taylor, where do you come from? I already love you. I really do. I love your voice and I love, I love what you're doing. I will answer that question. I come from a very complicated Viennese man and a very naive and beautiful Canadian model who back in the seventies was

traveling through Europe and they met and had this very torrid love affair. They were drawn to each other's, the idea of each other. And she brought him back to Toronto where they continued to live this very sort of studio 54 life. And they had so much glamour and there were all of these really exciting and beautiful people around them until I kind of crashed the party. And there's nothing sexy about babies or breast milk stain t-shirts. So Viennese artist ditched. He went back to Austria to never return. And now we have solo mom, solo kid.

And we're in like the early 80s. So it's a hustle. And my mom, God love her, got this great job in the fashion industry. But as you know, back then, kids didn't have like nannies and programming and stuff like that. You were either dragged along with your parents or you were sort of stuck at home alone. So I grew up in photo shoots and at these big dinner parties where I'd get crammed in a chair between all of these really fascinating and interesting people. And that's where my studying began. That was my classroom. I became fascinated with watching how these people communicated and how there was a misalignment sometimes between the way that their body was moving and the words

coming out of their mouth. I was too young to really know the content, but I could feel the energy of it. And so to answer your question, I'm from Toronto and I was raised by hundreds of people who probably didn't know they were raising me, but they became my village, my family. And it started this lifelong love of people's stories. And that leads me here today. Oh my. Okay. There's a big chunk in the middle that we're going to just unpack here, but like I was raised by so many people who didn't know they were raising me. That might be my favorite line of every podcast episode ever. Is it like, is that not it? Yeah. Like in this very, I mean, I'm just, I'm already imagining like wild and like entertainment arts culture, the feel of people

and that you were really tuned into, um, the misalignment that we so often, you know, the, the most intuitive among us. And some days I'm good at this, some days I'm really shitty at it, is watching that alignment. When somebody's in tune with that, either because they feel awful and they just fucking live in it, or they actually have some sense of confidence and self-assurance and they own it. Is that just not the most remarkable thing you've ever witnessed when those two things align? Oh, it's God coming through you. Oh, it really is. I think that alignment, though, it's always so fleeting. You don't live in that alignment.

That's impossible. Thank you. One more time for the kids in the back. You do not arrive. No. Okay? You capture those moments that are often veiled in joy, if you will, because it's the most vulnerable emotion on the planet. And you just hold them.

And then you wait for them to come again and you just really dig into all of that. What did you say? The alignment. Yeah. Tell me more about the alignment. Sorry, I cut you off. No, that's okay. No. God, I love everything you're saying. The alignment is a moment. It's like the lights, right? The songs, right? On the radio, the light coming through the window is right. You're, you're reading something, you're experiencing something, you're connecting with someone and everything just feels like you've landed. And I think the goal, my goal in life anyway, is to string as many of those moments together as possible. And to also remember when I'm misaligned, which happens all the time,

that alignment will come again. You know, we're not always going to be trying to fit in. It will naturally come. We just have to stay open and practice all this stuff we're supposed to practice all the time, which is sometimes really hard, especially when your life gets turned upside down and all the rules go out the window and something really tragic and scary happens, and you're in the dark, it's hard to remember that light will come again, but it does. But it does. But it does. And I wonder, I mean, if there's ever any hope, if you're listening to this right now and you're in the dark, please know it'll come again. I believe that to the core of me. There's not a iota of me that does not believe that to be true. I wonder, can you find alignment when you hear the words cancer, even in those

moments where you were in the hospital, when you were wondering about, you know, the future for your baby girl? Um, can alignment, does alignment have to happen when everything's going right? That's such a good question. Honestly, Jodi, I couldn't find alignment. No, I couldn't. I couldn't find alignment. It was too dark. It was too dark and it was too disorienting and it was too terrifying to even try to land in any moment. When your child has cancer, everything is a reaction.

That's all you're doing. It's reacting. There's no time to be proactive. You can't get ahead of it. It's like this. You're chasing this monster and it is, um, it's a really out of body experience. And I think a lot of parents that I talk to will say the same thing. You get ripped from life on land where you know everything, where you can breathe the air, where you know your people,

you know, you know how to brush your teeth, you know how to put on clothes. And then you get thrown into this dark ocean where you can't breathe, you can't function. And finding alignment is such an afterthought. It's not even on the radar. You are just trying to fucking survive. Because watching your child suffer to this degree is paralyzing. And I, you know, as I hear you say that, you know, I've listened to a number of parents when their babies become medically compromised. And so I think, you know, I, I think medically and emotionally, psychologically compromised. I mean, the alignment in so many ways to watching your kid have to navigate emotions that their body just aren't ready for, I think is so, like as you described, in those moments, so difficult to stay connected, stay regulated.

And a lot of times around here, we talk about, you know, the prerequisite for that alignment is the capacity to just sink into your own body, regardless of everything that's going on around you. Yeah. And when a piece of you, you, one of the pieces on this planet that you produced biologically or spiritually or whatever the deal is, it becomes very difficult. I think that's the first thing that gets really compromises your ability to stay regulated in that moment, to come back to you, because everything's got to be about them. Is that true? Absolutely. It's like total bullshit when someone says to put the oxygen mask on yourself first and then your kid, like what parent in the world would ever say, oh, wait, let me make sure I'm okay first before you're okay. That's so

counterintuitive. It's not the way parents work. So yeah, I think, um, I think the, the goal when you're caring for your child and when you're going through something, this life shattering is to survive. And then it is, it is after when God willing, you get to the other side with your child, which so many of us don't, but God willing, if you are one of the parents that do get to the other side with your child and they ring the bell, that's when your healing starts. That's when you're sort of, well, I almost call it more of a detox for parents at the end of a child's treatment because during treatment, you are existing off fear. It's like every morning you wake up and you take this big syringe of fear

and you jab it into your arm, just like a drug. And you are living off that fear every single day, every single day. And it is your fuel. And then when your child's done treatment and you don't need to inject yourself with that fear syringe anymore, you kind of start going through a detox, like a withdrawal. And it becomes a very dark place, just like I think it would be coming off of a major drug, coming off of a heroin. I haven't come off heroin before, but from what I experience,

a drug withdrawal is a very dark and scary place. And that's the time when I think a lot of parents are searching for their alignment. And, and that's, I think where you can begin to find it again. Okay. And I, I mean, I, I think after such a traumatic experience, a life altering, family altering experience, um, I've heard many people say that there was life before cancer and life after cancer because there is that innocence that is lost. Can you speak to that? No child should be threatened the way that a child is threatened when there's cancer in their body. And as a parent, it's our job to protect them, to keep them safe. And I think when you have to tell your child that they have cancer, they stop being a child. Childhood is now forever changed. You've ripped from them

that safety, that innocence, that protection. Because there were times when our daughter would say to me and my husband, am I going to die? And I can't lie to her. And I can't come up with like some fluffy story about, I don't know. I have to be honest with her. Like she deserves that authentic honesty. So when you talk about innocence, I mean, I don't know if a child can still stay innocent and still stay in their childhood while they're looking at their parents say to them, yes, you might die from this. Right. So it brings up a lot of complicated feelings, I think, in their life and of course in ours, because now we're the ones who are ripping that innocence from them. Right. Right. And as you're speaking, I just think about this, you know, like it's, we're wired for all of this remarkably. And I, it doesn't mean it's easier that you want it. What I keep hearing you say is, is the importance of navigating those

emotions, right? As you go through it together, like that, that for me becomes the crux of all of this, because it's like, you know, people survive, I use that term loosely, a cultural genocide, you know, people are in Gaza and Israel and, you know, in this moment, you know, navigating fear for their lives, the lives of their children. And what we know to be true, right, is the ability to stay in some form of alignment as you're navigating your babies through that becomes critical. And although it might not feel like it, that you were there, I'm going to guess, Sam, that you did many things along that way that allowed your babe to stay regulated. Right. And this, you know, you can imagine, right. When the big people are all like, holy fuck, this is bad. And I think that

what is so critical is I want to speak a little bit about who held you in these moments, how critically important was it to keep showing up, you know, to have a conscious conversation with a physician or oncologist, which I'm sure, you know, is a full-time job, but who did you have anybody? Was this a solo effort? What did, what did that feel like in those deep, dark moments? So I'm an external processor. Everything for me is coming out. I needed to find a community really fast. And my husband, internal processor, he was head down. Let's get through this. I'm not going to say a word. So the people who held me were the other oncology parents that I found in the deep, dark ocean. And they were strangers for like two seconds and then suddenly this

bond started where we were all speaking the same language it's like if you are in a foreign country and no one speaks your language and then all of a sudden you run into someone and you do speak the same and you're like oh my god tell me everything, someone I can talk to. And that's what it felt like. So finding these other oncology parents, they were the life preservers that lifted me back up to the surface and allowed me to breathe again. And that is the reason why I've now gone on to build this community where we all connect and where we can all hear each other's stories. Because if you aren't an external processor, if you aren't someone who's going to tap on the shoulder of someone in line at the pharmacy and say, oh, hey, does your kid also have cancer? Because if you're not one of those people, you need to still find your community. You still

need to be lifted up to surface. And I hope that the stories that we cultivate and the stories that we share will do that for the internal processors as well. Oh my gosh. Okay. So you tell me this, because as I'm listening to you speak, I feel like there was so much alignment, even in those depths of despair. Because it's like that, you know, alignment for me, we often misconstrue this to be this like joyous state of like you see the light and Jesus or Yahweh comes through the fucking clouds and everything like that. I think alignment for me feels like you are seen. And hold on. You are just totally shifting my entire fucking brain right now. I'm not even kidding. Carry on. Sorry. I just need to know that I'm having like a major moment. I got to take off my jacket. I'm like sweating.

That's right. Come on in girl. Go on because I think you're just about to solve a major to be aligned so that they can continue to walk their baby home. I think that the greatest humans on this planet have the capacity to understand that even in the depths of despair or the height of our joys, all we need is to remember we were never meant to do any of this alone. watching your baby suffer. And when there are people that can bring you back, hold your hand, speak the same about a Broviac or a central line or a, what this means in this chemo, what does this mean? What, what, what version, what stage, what all of that fucking stuff that is ridiculous that you get so beautifully versed in, right? That like two seconds ago, you never even knew what the fuck a needle was. And it's phenomenal to me. Yeah. And I think that the healthiest among us have the capacity to seek the alignment even in the worst times. And whether our child lives or dies, this is going to sound really asinine, is probably equally as important. Obviously,

I get that. But as you navigate that journey with them, our biggest goal is to hang on to the big people, the ones doing the navigating, because the littles will respond to the care or they won't. They'll respond to the cancer or they won't. The treatment, I mean, or they won't. How we navigate that becomes much more important in the story, in the alignment. So many parents who, I mean, listen to this, right, will have lost their child. And I think about some of the grieving parents that I've sat with. The solace comes in the moments that we were aligned, even as the days got shorter, right? The moments that, you know, you know, there was the joy happened at the bedside or, you know, you brought in the silly thing or you did the thing where you were like,

I'm glad we did. I'm not, I don't ever forget this moment, the smell, the sound, the giggle, the whatever it is, right? Those are mini alignments that allow us to heal even the biggest parts of grief. I mean, tell me what you think about that. Where does that land in your body? Well, you just totally shifted my entire perspective on what alignment is. And I will love you and thank you for this forever. Because Jodi, I think I always assumed alignment meant joy. And that to me, those were all the moments I was stringing together. Those little flickers where it's like, oh my God, I'm so happy to be alive. But no, you're so right. It's the feeling-seeking moment.

Exactly. That is alignment. I're sitting in Ronald McDonald's. I just want to start dancing and jumping up and down right now because- Do it. No, I'm serious. You have just blown my mind, Jodi. Thank you. I mean it. Like honest to God, from the bottom of my heart, thank you for framing it that way because now I want to change my answer. I want to totally change my answer. And when you asked me about alignment during my daughter's treatment, fuck yeah, I was aligned. I had tons of moments of alignment and it was because I was seen. It was because I connected with other parents who saw me. And to be honest with you now, when I think about it, those moments of alignment might even be more profound than the joy alignment, you know, because what is more human than seeing each other and witnessing each other's experience here on earth. A complete stranger. You know, you're in Ronald McDonald house and they don't look like

you, sound like you, any of those things. And they have a 13 year old who has a tumor and may or may not survive. And you don't even have to have words. That's right. You just hold hands, try to choke down a piece of toast, and you go to bed. Yeah. That's alignment. That's alignment, baby. That's alignment. Oh, my gosh. And you have to – there's something in that that requires us, and grief is the most debilitating.

I think it can really fuck up this place because it feels so isolating and so lonely. And I think that, you know, anybody who's ever got a diagnosis, I've heard this many times of all ages, you know, when you get that diagnosis, whatever it is, a chronic illness, cancer, the isolation becomes, I think, the thing that just really impedes healing or growth. And what I love the most about, you know, your podcast, the bravery to be able to have these conversations is really about offering that community of alignment. That's right. When it feels so dark and so scary that this is where you find a little place at home, a little bit of reprieve, right? A little bit of like, fuck. So I don't feel so alone. Yeah,

exactly. And I, so, so tell me, I want to back up just a little bit. So tell me a little bit about, um, how, how this all started. Okay. So anyway, I don't even know the name of your daughter. Ellie. Ellie. Ellie. I love that name. Okay. So you, you, is she an only child? I have a son who's two years younger. His name's Oakley, like the trees. And she's, she's Ellie Bloom and he's Oakley and they're two little, you know, redheaded bonkers kids. and everything was great. Yeah. So everything was great. You're frolicking in Toronto. Yeah. How, tell me how you know that Ellie is getting sick. What do you, what do you notice? I noticed a small bump on her face

and it was weird. So we went to the doctor and they didn't think much of it. It was a lipoma, just like a little, you know, fat cell. And then the shape of this bump started to change so much that it was distorting her face and she didn't like the way it looked, not in a vanity way. She was 10. It was more just like, this is, this is messing up my face. So I found a plastic surgeon who would remove it and she didn't have any symptoms, any signs, like nothing. And he removed this bump, thought it was fine. And two weeks later we found out that it was cancer. It was a tumor in her face. And she had no signs. She was like the healthiest kid you'd ever met in your entire life. And Jodi, if this bump had been anywhere else on

her body, by the way, the type of cancer she has is a soft tissue cancer. So it can show up anywhere in children. It's mainly in children. If this was on the back of her head, if this was internal, I mean, we would have never, ever discovered it until it was probably way too advanced. So we got a call and had to come in to SickKids in Toronto and it all began there. And I think a lot of oncology parents will tell you that the moment of diagnosis is this fracture that happens in your life where, like you said, it was life before cancer and now life. Now life. And it's a devastating fracture. It's fast. It's harsh. And like I said, it feels like you are thrown into a place where you have to relearn how to breathe, how to move, how to exist in the world.

I bet. And Oakley in this process, I think about him. What was that? What did you notice? We cocooned, we got really tight as a family, as a foursome and our army kind of formed just outside of our bubble. So he was part of everything. We had to go to Florida for a couple of months for treatment. Ellie needed to get radiation in Florida because we don't have the type of radiation she needed in Canada. Really? Yeah. So we relocated to Jacksonville, Florida for two months and he was sitting in wheelchairs inside of hospital rooms while his sister was getting brutal treatments and watching it all, you know, getting popsicles from the nurses as well and getting toys and getting attention, but also witnessing and absorbing this disgusting, awful treatment. And he internalized a lot of it. But I think because we stayed so intact as a family, he felt safe to vocalize and he felt safe to ask questions

and he felt safe to cry and to be scared. So because I think we did it together so tightly, we were fortunate enough. By the way, I must say that our privilege to be even able to go to Florida and to travel together as a family and for my husband to leave work and for all of the complications involved in relocating, the privilege is not and will never be lost on me. Okay. The holidays are coming and nobody wants to deal with seasonal bugs making their way through

the family. That's where Maple comes in. No more scrambling for open clinics during holiday festivities. One membership covers the whole family, making it a gift that keeps on giving this season. And with over a million five-star reviews, Canadians are loving it. Don't let sickness slow down your season. Download the Maple app today. See a real doctor on your phone in minutes, 24-7. Get Maple. Get well. Sooner. I love, you know, when people think about how to protect their children, their other children, their quote-unquote well, as they navigate this, I,

I think to your point, I think what's really critical is that having those open discussions, having them present, I would suggest is so critically important because we want to protect them, you know, and I, and I get that, you know, we don't want them to see us cry or to hear the word cancer or like what's going on. But I, I have to tell you, it is, it is so critically important. And if they can't be physically there, the importance of FaceTiming and connecting and, you know, using the real words, depending on the age developmentally, of course, this becomes important. But oftentimes what happens with kids in grief and trauma is that if you don't provide

them a script, they'll make their own. And it's often worse than what is really happening, right? And then they have no space to say, I shouldn't have pushed her. Or did I make this happen, mom? Or, you know, all of those conversations that are really critical. Did you, did you notice that with Oakley a little bit, you know, the wonderings of why and how, and are you going to be okay and stop crying, mom? You know, the, the concern for everybody else being dysregulated. That's such a good question. He, he was eight. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. He was eight years old. I think he, in the beginning, he definitely, like you said, like a lot of kids think they can catch it too. Or did I, you know, am I going to get it too? Or did, did, you know, I give this to Ellie, whatever, you know, they have all of these ideas about sort of what cancer

is. And so because we did use the words and because we did have as much of a honest and open conversation about what was going on as we could. You know, a lot of people ask me, how do you talk about cancer with your kids? How do you prepare those conversations? And my honest answer is I opened my mouth and words come out. I can't prepare. How, like where, how do you prepare? How do you find some guidebook that says, I know there are tons, but every kid is so different, right? Every parent relationship is so different. So for me, it was just like cross my fingers, say, all right, here goes. And I opened my mouth and stuff comes out and thank God it resonated and landed with my kids. I think that speaks to the foundation that we have already as a family,

but you know, he definitely internalized so much of it it and we try now even on the other side to talk about it with them and to keep it a very open conversation Ellie is the most private about it and keeps it oh yeah she she had a lot of shame around her cancer and a lot of shame around her scar and wearing a wig. And it was a tough road getting her to a place where she would feel like she was back in her skin, which we're still doing. Yeah. Well, and I think this is so interesting, you know, when we think about developmentally, you know, for kids at that age when they're becoming self-aware of their bodies and, you know, the influence again of, you know, what we should look like even at 10 and 11 and 12 and 13 and having those open conversations around,

you know, setting that tone for the opportunities to speak about it, to engage. How did you, did you include her friend group? How did that happen in terms of introducing, you know, the, what she was going to look like, what was going to happen in her life? Like I heard you, you know, the, what she was going to look like, what was going to happen in her life. Like I heard you, you know, talk about cocooning. How did you reintroduce her group to her and explain this process or did that happen? You know what? We are really lucky to have a tight crew, really tight crew. And so a lot of our friends are also our kids, friends, friends, you know, we kind of all run together. And so the parents took it upon themselves to sort of describe what was going to happen with Ellie, her hair loss, her illness, how she was going to change the way

she looked drastically, all the things. The parents kind of gave their kids an overview, but I found that it was like an issue for maybe two seconds, maybe like a, for two seconds when they saw her without her hair or when they saw her looking really sick and she couldn't walk. And then they were able to move past it so quickly because they love her and they love each other. So we didn't really have to reintegrate and reintroduce Cancer Ellie. They kind of came along for the ride with us. And that took a lot of work on all the parents' part.

But it was so important to us because, like you said, at her age, her peer group is really starting to get important. And her awareness is changing. So we brought them along for the ride. They all came to Jacksonville when we were there. They all came to visit when we were there. And thank God. I mean, it was a, it was a real gift for her to have this crew around her where they didn't talk about cancer at all. They didn't even mention it. Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. And so then, okay. So how treatment happens, you come back to Canada, uh, how, tell me about the ringing of the bell. What, what does it mean to ring the bell by the way? And like, how do you get to ring the bell?

How do we, like, do we know it's fucking gone or is now they're always the concern? Like, like, are we sure we can ring? Cause that would be me. I'd be like, are you, I do not want to ring no fucking bell until we are very sure. Okay. So what does that mean? Tell me all the things and where are we at now? I have a wonderful cancer therapist who I spoke to all throughout treatment and she always wanted to put a little sign. You had one? Oh yeah. I've been in therapy since I was eight, Jodi. Like this. Okay. So is this critical? Like this is when I think about parents navigating this, how the fuck do you have time to have therapy? Like, do you know what I mean? Was this hospital appointed? Was this outside of this process? All of the above. Okay. When, when she

was diagnosed, I, like I said, externally processed and I got my team together of community, but then I also found these angels who work in oncology and grief and bereavement. And they've been social workers and therapists for in the oncology world for decades. And some of them I found through cancer charities, cancer, uh, not-for-profits. And some of them I also found on my own that were in private practice. Okay. They were crucial, crucial. Um, because when you're living in that kind of uncertainty, when you don't know the outcome of your life, you're waiting for results all the time. You're waiting to know if any of this treatment works, that waiting place is very difficult to, like we were saying, align to find

any moments. The waiting place is really tricky. So one of the therapists said that she always wanted to put a little sign underneath the bell saying, this is complicated. And that's the best way to describe it. Any parent will tell you at the ringing of the bell, you know, everyone takes pictures and like this whole clapping and cheering and stuff like that. Every single parent looks like they're about to get hit by a Mack truck in the pictures because it's not over. There's nothing over about this. Nothing. But yet the rest of the world thinks it is. So everyone around you starts to go back to normal. Everyone around you starts to, you know, the lasagnas stop coming to the door. All of the care and the attention and the carrying of your family stops. But that's when it all starts to sink in and it all hits. So the fear of relapse, the millions of different reactions and responses to her treatment that will be with her for her life. I mean, these are real day-to-day things now. So ringing of the

bell is bullshit if you ask me. I don't think it's helpful. I think it's done for the outside world. I think it's so that everyone around you can now exhale and be like, okay, they're done. Let's all move on. But for a family, it's in some cases just the beginning. Okay. Okay. And, you know, if we have people listening today who, you know, are supporters of families going through cancer, or, I mean, all of us end up at whether, you know, we experience it ourselves or not, we end up in that position. What was the thing that you needed the most? What was the thing that, that was the most helpful? If you had to tell people, you know, how to create that village, what are some of the things that, that you, I don't know that you still think about? Don't change.

Be the same friend, the same neighbor, the same community member as you always have been to that family. Because fear of cancer and watching a family go through something this awful, a lot of people do that head tilt, high pitch voice. Hi, are you okay? What's going on? And the family can feel that and it's excruciating. It's being, it's, you're being so othered, you know? So the one thing that I was really grateful for, and that I noticed the most with friends who really stuck by us was they stayed the same. I mean, they would walk into our house and they would see Ellie sick on the couch and say, what the fuck is going on? This is crazy. And I'd say, yeah, I know this is crazy, but you know, that was a gift that they gave us

that they, they held it together enough. They did what they had to do when they walked through our door. They were the same. Listen, when they left, they might've gone and bawled their eyes out in their car for two hours, but we didn't see that. And that was a gift beyond gifts. Oh, and I think, you know, just showing up is important because it is so scary. I mean, I think like it just, as you were speaking about that reminded me so many times of grief. Um, you know, when somebody loses a child, um, I often tell the story about, you know, one of my very, very good friends. I think I write about this in Kids These Days, where we were pregnant at the same time and she was two weeks ahead of me. These are our first babies. And she lost Jillian in labor, physician error, all the things. And I, there I am, right. 38 weeks pregnant. And the only thing I didn't want to do was see her. Like I, you know, she didn't want to see anybody, you know,

came home, tried to, you know, get, get the milk out, express the milk. You know, you come home with no baby. She wouldn't see anybody. And she asked to see me within a couple of days after Jillian was gone. And I remember thinking I wanted to just go there and not look pregnant. Right. Like I tried to hide, like I said to my husband, does this shirt make me look pregnant? And I think he's like, you're five foot. Fuck all any Ukrainian jassy. OK, there's nothing to hide in this bitch. Let's just go. And I think so much of the time we stay away from when, you know, when our kids are healthy or our kids haven't died or, you know, something has happened in this place,

we just think we don't want to make it worse. And I think what I hear you saying, and I would agree wholeheartedly, is that you don't get to be the judge of that. You showing up, it might not be the right time, or you might have brought too many lasagnas or, you know, all of those things. Like, give them the opportunity to be able to say those things and push back and be angry or to say the things, right? But I think being honest about those things. I didn't want to come today because I didn't want to remind you that I'm still pregnant or fuck. I'm like, I don't even know what to say. Say that instead of doing nothing because the silence is deafening. Would you, would you agree with that? Or I mean, am I, am I wrong? A thousand percent. And I was one of those people. I probably was one of those

held head tilting. Oh, like, oh, we all are. And again, don't feel guilty about that because I mean, I'm, I'm a head tilter. I'm a like, I'm so sorry. What the fuck are you sorry for? Like, I mean, again, right? Like I, I think that we're going to do it. Forget it. Like that's number one. Okay. Off the table, but do it anyway. Yeah. Go anyway. Say the stupid fucking things. Would you say? Because it's so lonely. Grief and mourning and all of this stuff is so lonely. Yeah. One of the parents that I, well, many, I've, I've interviewed many bereaved parents, many, and they all say, talk about our babies. Bring them up.

Ask me about them. They are still my child. They are still alive in my life, in my heart. Please ask about them. What grade would they be going into? What was their favorite color? Keep them alive and ask about them because there's nothing weirder than being around somebody who has obviously experienced enormous grief and not addressing it. And, you know, you, you can't, I think to what you're saying, you can't say the

wrong thing. Showing up, being there and being yourself is our gift, is, is our duty, I think, as community members and as friends. And to sit in the pain with our friends, sit in it. Don't try to solve it. Don't try to bright side it. Don't try to say everything is going to be fine. Just sit in it with us. I can't imagine a better offering of love. Oh my God. Of love. And here's a couple of, I was just thinking about this out loud. So not out loud. I was thinking about this in my head and I'm going to say it out loud now is that oftentimes here's the two words that I want you to be careful of. Okay. Saying this at least if you are starting a sentence with at least, um, you should at least try to zip it because the intention is beautiful. At least, you know, she made it,

you had her for 10 years. At least she is over the hardest, at least, at least, at least. And the intention is to get the person that we are caring for or talking to back to a state of regulation. And sometimes that's just not the job. The job is to hold space. So instead of at least, here's another phrase that works better. Okay. Tell me more. What's the hardest part? What is everybody missing right now? And I think that is the best sense of holding space for in this time where there's no fucking answer. You cannot at least did enough. You cannot. And the intention, again, I'll say it is so beautiful. Of course. And I do this all the time, right? We, when I love you and I see you're hurting and you know, we don't know whether your baby's going to live or die. I just want to fix it. I want to take it away. I would do anything.

You know, if I think about my mom says this to me all the time, when our babies are struggling in any capacity, I just want to take it away. I just, I just want to make it better. I just, you know, so the intention is so good, but the perception sometimes is like, fuck, just listen. Right. Would you, what do you think about that? Everything you're saying is absolutely correct. Yes. I think that we want to take pain away from people, especially when they're children. I mean, what kind of monster wouldn't want to, and having to take your hands off the wheel and just sit in a car that might crash, might not crash. We don't know, but you have to take your hands off the wheel and just ride it out with the family because at least we're in it together. And then you're showing us that you're,

you know, you're here with us together. Yeah. I think you're, I think everything you're saying is absolutely right. And one of the reasons again, why I wanted to do this podcast is because a lot of people don't have someone to listen. A lot of people don't have community and family members who can sit and say things like, tell me more. And so our conversations go on for sometimes three or four hours because this is the first time a bereaved mom has been able to talk about her experience, not even so much about her baby, but how she feels now, how she's integrating back into the world with this huge hole in her heart, in her life. And so my whole mission is to basically be the tell me more person in someone's life. I love it. I love it. And I just keep, I mean,

I talk about Ram Dass all the time, but we're just walking each other. We're just walking each other home. I have it all over my house. Yes, I know. Right. Nobody gets out of here alive. So many leave us way too early and so many leave us in pain. We wish they never had, but, and we're just, we're just walking each other home. Listen, Sam Taylor, you're pretty amazing. You are doing some phenomenal things in this world. I want to know where can people find you? They can find me everywhere. We are on all the platforms. We're also with Snack Labs. So we will be hopefully doing lots of future things together and getting out there. We're a pretty niche community, but that doesn't mean that there aren't families

all around the world who would really benefit from these conversations. So every podcast platform, we are available. The Deep Sea, come and find us. And if you ever want to share your story, if you ever want to be on the podcast and connect deeper, you can email me. All that information is on our Instagram

at the Deep Sea podcast. Beautiful. And we information is on our Instagram at the DC podcast. Beautiful. And we'll put all of that in the show notes. Parents, caregivers, friends, supporters, this is a place where you can land when some of the hardest chapters come your way. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So fantastic. I loved every second. I hope I feel in alignment now as a result of this conversation. And, uh, I hope you do too, everybody. Uh, thank you for, for sitting with us today in this, um, in this hard, but important conversation. Well, thank you for blowing my mind on what alignment really means. I will never forget that as long as I live. I am so grateful for that shift in my perspective. And I think you

are phenomenal. I think what you're doing is incredible. And I love every one of the conversations that you have. And I can't wait to hear all of the ones you're going to have because your perspective and your insight is so unique and brilliant. And I love to finally meet someone who says fuck as much as I do. So it's been a real pleasure. That's a number one key to alignment right there. I'll fucking tell you that. Okay. Oh, thank you so much. You're so welcome. Everyone take care of yourself, take care of each other, and I will meet you right back here again next week. Hey, after this episode, if you're thinking about what do I do?

Where do I go to do the work? Where do I land? I'd love to listen to Jodi's voice more. Gosh, I wish she had a course where I could just do the work with her on my own time whenever I'm ready. Guess what I created? It's called Feeling Seen, the course. And it's so fucking good. I got to tell you that it's really good. If you want to have a place to land where you want to think a little bit more, you know, we talked about some really important things on this episode. And if you want to have a place to land where you want to think a little bit more, you know, we talked about some really important things on this episode. And if you want to dive a little deeper with me, you can go to drjodekarrington.com and check out my courses.

Feeling Seen is one that I think I created for everybody who wants to just sink in a little more in this time of disconnect. So go there. I'll put a link in the show notes and I'll meet you there when you're ready. The Everyone Comes From Somewhere podcast is produced by the incredibly talented and handsome team at Snack Labs, Mr. Brian Seaver, Mr. Taylor McGilvery, and the infamous Jeremy Saunders.

The soundtracks that you hear at the beginning of every episode were created by Donovan Morgan. Our executive producer is Marty Piller. Our PR big shooters are Des Veneau and Barry Cohen. Our agent, my manager, Jeff Lowness from the Talent Bureau. And emotional support, of course, is provided by, relatively speaking, our children. For the record, I am a registered clinical psychologist in Alberta, Canada. The content created and produced in this show is not intended as specific therapeutic advice. The intention of this podcast is to provide information, resources, education, and maybe even a little bit of hope. I'm going to go. If you're at a point in life when you're ready to lead with purpose, we can get you there. The University of Victoria's MBA in Sustainable Innovation is not like other MBA programs.

It's for true changemakers who want to think differently and solve the world's most pressing challenges. From healthcare and the environment to energy, government, and technology, it's your path to meaningful leadership in all sectors. For details, visit uvic.ca slash future MBA. That's uvic.ca slash future MBA.