Unlonely with Dr. Jody Carrington - No Kids, No Apologies - Emily Paulsen

Episode Date: November 27, 2025

“So... do you have kids?” That one question—THAT ONE—can derail a whole damn conversation. Because if the answer is no? Suddenly, you’re forced to explain your whole existence. This week on Unlonely, I dive into it with the brilliant, badass, and beautifully bold Emily Paulsen who is child-free by choice, and not here to play by anyone else’s rules. We unpack the stigma, the double standards, the asinine questions (Hi, Uber drivers 🙃), and the truth about why choosing not to have kids is just as valid, beautiful, and bold as choosing to have them. Whether you're a mama, an auntie, child-free, child-less, questioning, exhausted, or just trying to make sense of how to be a woman in this damn world—this episode is a deep breath of truth. And spoiler alert: You get to choose. Full stop. No explanation required.Follow Emily Here:https://www.instagram.com/curiouslifeofachildfreewoman/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Today's guest friend, you're up for it. I want you to meet Emily Paulson. She is an award-winning entrepreneur and happily child-free woman, shining a light on the often-overshadowed child-free by-choice perspective. In fact, I've never, ever spoken to anybody who has really taken on this topic wholeheartedly and proudly and calmly and has taken all of the perspectives. into place around why people choose the opportunity to choose to be child free and what that means in seeking a partner and navigating, you know, life as you grow old and what does that look like?

We dive into all of that here today. So she's fucking brilliant. She's got her own entrepreneurial space and a marketing expert. She didn't want to talk about any of that. She really wanted to dive into this place of womanhood and motherhood and opportunities to sort decide all of those things for yourself. She brings a voice to child-free people, and I was honestly blown away by her. So whether she's interviewing innovative experts or positioning leaders to scale through

her brand studio, electric collab, Emily's power lies in allowing people to feel seen and celebrated for who they are. She spent years honing the ability to deeply understand and amplify others in an honest, high impact way and in this space of people who choose to be child free we talk about also who people who in this episode who end up not having children not because they wanted to be but that's where they were um i i hope you love this episode um she is in chicago and everything you need to know about her will be in the show notes um but i i hope you can hear in this episode i'm enamored by the soul I cannot wait to be in the same room as her.

And I'm so, so grateful that she's in this season. Buckle up. Emily Paulson, by 2030, 45% of American women age 25 to 44 will be child-free and single. I want to know so, I'm so interested in this, bringing a voice to people who choose not to have children

is a passion of yours, is something that you've built a brand around. And that's how we met, right? I got to be on your podcast talking about this. What is happening to women? Why are we finally understanding we get this choice? And why are we using it so beautifully?

Tell me. It's a good question. I think that stat, which is circulating the internet, is making a lot of people nervous. And I don't feel surprised at all, right? As somebody who is child free by choice, I knew that about myself. You could probably make the argument that I always knew. But when I was younger, I always thought, oh, when I get a little older, I'll feel like I want to have kids when I find the right partner, when I move to the right city, when I have the right amount of money, I always felt like the other shoe will drop. And this instinct, this need, this desire will come into my mind. And it just never did. And over the years, like 18 odd years of being vocal and sure about that choice, I have met with so many women on all sides of the spectrum. We've had some really positive conversations, some really negative conversations. I have hurt some feelings accidentally. I've had my feelings hurt. And when I think about this stat and your question, why are women, why is this happening? Why are less women deciding to have kids now?

I cannot tell you the amount of DMs I get from moms who say they never felt like they had a choice. It never felt like a decision, right? Just that was the next step. You go to- Didn't I say this to you on your podcast? I was like, only recently have I discovered that I could have chosen not to have children. Now, I feel like I've said from the very beginning that I always wanted to be a mom

that was the only thing I knew to be true. In fact, I forewent a relationship with somebody who I was deeply in love with. He didn't want children. He knew that from a very early age. And I was like, oh, you wait. I will get you over to the dark side. Two years, we dated and had many conversations about, okay, okay, okay, I think I can. I think I can. And thankfully, he was much more clear than I was. He was like, I don't think I can. I really think that either I'm going to resent you or them and this isn't fair. And I like I really still think about it to this day. Now, I do, I think I am very happy being a mom. I think there was a time in my life where I always knew that that was going to be true. But I am fascinated in having this conversation about knowing in the core of you that that is

not a decision and how brave, bold, insightful you must have been and women who make this choice when the world or the expectation, I can't imagine how many questions you've gotten over the years. And I want to know about that. What was that like for you? It still has got to come in hard and heavy. What are the women, the couples you work with? You know, what are some of those expectations? Where do they come from? They come from everywhere. And I think that's, part of the challenge. They're big and small. It's one thing to think about society. And, you know, this happens to me, Uber drivers. This is like the number one culprit. No matter I have headphones in, I don't know. I have some kind of energy. Uber driver's going to talk to me. And I will

indulge that, right? If I give like a signal that's like, you know, I give some short answers. I'm really not in the mood. It's usually when it's like an hour long drive home from the airport or something and I'm totally captive. And then if they like keep going, I feel like, okay, this person needs to have a conversation. Sure, I'll indulge. Then the question comes up, do you have kids? No. Can I ask you why not? That is such the next question. Can I ask you why not? So like when we, and we can get into this more granularly, but there's that, which is like, that's a stranger, right? That doesn't really, I feel neutral about that. Of course, I don't think if I said I had kids, somebody would say, can I ask you why? Can I ask you why you had kids? You know, we don't

do it in reverse. But the opposite is not true. For sure. sure the opposite it's not true right yeah i don't get my feelings heard about an uber driver asking that question i think the things that are hard for people are parents having a confronting conversation like okay well your decision not to have kids means i don't have grandkids siblings who want who they have kids and they want their kids to have cousins and these are people who you care about a lot and it can feel like i'm making this choice because you know thank you for the words you shared brave, bold, like, I've done this hard work to get to know myself. I really, I feel sure about this choice in my mind and I'm trying to act with integrity about what my life should look like.

But now you're telling me I'm impacting the lives of the other people that I love the most. And their picture for their future as a retiree or as an aunt or as a whatever, that's dependent on my choice in this area. So, you know, it becomes like on the one hand, it's, funny and it's enraging and we get these stupid questions and comments. And on the other hand, it's incredibly deep to feel like, you know, you have to be certain for yourself, but also for the lifestyle barriers you're now putting on people you love. Oh. I mean, I guess I never even considered that. And so take me back a little bit for you. And I've had this question. I mean, I feel like it is an astinine question. So you can just tell me to fuck off if that's not the

right direction, is like, how do you know? How if, you know, if we have people that are listening that, you know, just sort of feel pressured or I, you know, even, again, this is a two-part question, I guess. So, like, how do you know? And then what happens in we know fertility issues or like the difficulty in conceiving? I mean, I guess those are two very different conversations, right? When people are childless by choice or childless because their bodies didn't. yeah, or circumstance or whatever happened, right? Two, I guess, very different people. Do you see a crossover between those?

Like, is there a collective understanding in that space? And just the constant questions that you have to field, which, again, you and I talks a little bit about this. I think, like, the intention isn't always to sort of stab you in the heart. Right. Right. Because, I mean, again, it's a colloquial, how's the weather, how's your kids? Oh, you don't have any real?

Fuck. Now we're in this place of like, Jesus, did you want? them, didn't you? Do I ask about them? Are they dead? Like I... Totally. Yeah. So I don't even know if there's a question in there. So back it up, I guess, about how did you know? Yes. Let's start there. And then I'm glad you brought up. There is a nuance between those who are child free by choice. You know, there's nuance just like there is for every decision we all make as people. We don't all make it for the same reasons. My feeling, and I have no mission to convince anybody to be child free, my feeling is if I never had the strong desire to be a mother,

then I shouldn't be a mother. It's not that I think I couldn't do it. It's not that I think I wouldn't be good at it or that I could like bend my lifestyle to it. It's not that I have childhood trauma. I have a great relationship with my parents. It's not like I think. It's got to be everybody's assumption.

Oh, I know why. Oh, let's start talking about the abuse. I mean, obviously. Trauma. Yeah. People assume trauma, abuse, selfishness, right? Yeah. How dare you not want to share your life

with life suck and cayews? God. And I can make an argument that having a kid is the most selfish thing. Like, you think you're so great that we need more. We need more of you, right? So, um, here's a tip for free. You should stop. And I say that in lightness, because if you want to have a kid, you should. But yeah, I mean, when it comes to the knowing and, you know, I just had a conversation the other day. So poignant, this like incredibly successful, decisive, articulate person. And she's really stuck. And she's, you know, turning the corner of 40. And we know how it is for women. Like the pressure. for the time the time what are you going to do what are you going to do it's now or never and you know it sucks i think the worst i'm grateful that i have felt sure for so long i think being in that space of not knowing or even the space of ambivalence like i really feel like i'd be happy either way that is tough and i just feel from my perspective it's a lifelong commitment you know god forbid even if you lose a child once you have a child you're a parent forever so i would rather opt into like I'm not going to do it until I feel incredibly compelled to do it.

Okay. Yeah. If that answers your question. That does beautifully. And I think there's an influencer in Canada. Her name is Alicia McCarville, who I adore and, you know, has a lot of conversations with a partner, her husband and child free by choice. And I watch a lot of her content around, you know, people saying things often like,

okay, are you sure? And like, you'll change your mind. and like, are you ever worried about who's going to care for you when you get old? Like, tell me, tell me some of the asinine and maybe they're not asinine. I mean, I guess I'm putting a huge, like, the intention sometimes is even for worry for you. I would imagine people who love you or people who like, God, are so enamored by being parents or find the joys in, in parenthood. Don't want you to miss those things, I guess, from their perspective.

Yes. Talk to me about, you know, what that's. what that's like what people shouldn't say yes i have mixed feelings about this because i feel like i'm a true open book and i mean that and yeah all the questions that have come my way you just touched on some that happen all the time who's going to take care of you when you're old what if your marriage isn't enough what if your friendships aren't enough what if like this is the only type of deep unconditional love and you're going to miss out on it um definitely parents who feel like their identity is parenting and becoming a parent is the best thing they've ever

done. Those questions really, I believe, come from a good place of like, oh my gosh, oh no, Emily, like, we love you so much. You're going to miss this. You're going to miss this. Like, please, please, like, let me show you my side. Let me tell you what I love about it. Let me tell you how, like, I wasn't sure either. And then thank God I decided to do it. I believe that they have my best interest at heart. And also the people who, you know, bring a really snoddy tone to put it lightly to the conversation even if they have like a bitchy intent maybe even if there's some jealousy in there like they had kids now they kind of wish they didn't like let's attack emily and call her an idiot for not doing it like whatever the thing is behind it i enjoy engaging

in these conversations but i don't want to normalize those questions because there are so many people where those questions are so painful like you mentioned infertility you know there's stats that's only going up people there's a lot of people who wish they could be parents and they're not that's not me that's not necessarily the people I resonate with but like there's no way of knowing there's no way of knowing so why are we talking about it at all right like I just say as much as I like put this out there in a big public way it to me like there's nothing strange like if I asked you like do you have kids and you said yes I'd be like that's amazing if you ask me do you have kids and I said no you'd be like that's amazing and then we just talk about everything else that we're

to be talking about in the first place. I want it to be that, um, neutral for people. And we're a long way from that. Okay. Yes. And I, you know, I, I, I want to know the experience of your husband. You, uh, are married to a, uh, the notes would tell me an amazing human. He is amazing. I love, take, can you tell me a little bit about him about that conversation? Does he have the same wait. Does he get the same amount of questions, you know, as he watches you do this work? Tell me a little bit about what that's like through his lens. Yes. I would say there's definitely a double standard men versus women and how people engage with us in conversation. And I ask him, you know, when I get home from one of those Uber rides and I'm

like, have you ever been in an Uber? And a male Uber driver asks you whether you have kids and then says why like no you know he's like no uber drivers don't talk to me like it's just let alone are we going to these personal places right so i do think there's a big double standard and how men get asked about it or just like in the workplace right like you join a team oh it's so nice to meet you what did you do before this do you have do you have kids like men don't do that so that i'm sometimes jealous of and i'll you know be like well you don't get it you don't get how much it's like brought up to us without us saying anything as far as the decision around it i feel very lucky that we didn't meet till we were 29. So I had been sure in this choice. I'd been out

there dating a lot of people, you know, doing all the things with all the people. And I had I had enough decisiveness that I could be upfront with that early. If this was like going well, we were going to a second date, a third date, I would say, like, I don't ever want to be a parent. And there were some like really fun first dates that didn't go beyond or second dates because they were like, oh, really? Like, I know I want to be a dad for sure. Like, I actually really want a big family. And then we'd be like, okay, so nice to meet you. This is not going to work out. See, you're so much better than me. I was like, I'm going to get you. I'm going to get you. You wait. You wait. That's so much extra work. Oh, my God. Listen, I, I mean, and so many, like,

okay, so we'll just do a quick aside in for a second. What I found really helpful about that experience for me and investing those two years in that relationship was it was, it was also a safety net for me because I knew that he was so clear that he didn't want that. And it was also something I knew that I was so clear that I wanted. It allowed me to really sink into that relationship because I knew that I, like, I had one foot out the whole time as did he because we knew we wanted different things. And I mean, I was in the middle of my residency. So all of those things kind of made it helpful that I didn't actually knew that I was going

to deeply fall in love with somebody. But I think I did anyway. but I think the idea around that is that, gosh, we just, in addition to so many other things that we hope we can change in partners, this is just one of them. And I think, you know, that is a conversation that it's often opposite. Would you say, I mean, I don't know the stats on this. So, you know, I guess I just made this huge assumption here that like men are much more clear about this in women. Do you think that that is shifted? Do you think, I mean, I guess according to this data, I didn't look at how many men are going to be childless and single,

but I know it benefits men astronomically compared to women to be in relationship. And I would guess to be parents, but I'm not, that's also data. I don't know. The reverse is absolutely true for women. Staying single without children, you are way healthier. I've seen those stats. Yeah, I know. Liz Gilbert just came out with a new book, and she just, like, she did, she shared this

little thing about like so women um so if the single women um are far more happier far more content experienced far less suicidal ideation or or completion numbers they also less homicide like all of these statistics are like ridiculous men exact opposite if they stay if they get married they live longer they report to be happier they are more stable they are less suicidal and less homicidal the exact opposite is true for women and so the question it begs the question, right? So, like, what is happening in this space of women really being identified as caregivers, care providers? And really, that's evidenced by the expectation that, yes, of course, because you can have children, you have to invest nine months in doing that.

Men could have multiple children at multiple times. In fact, hundreds of them, thousands of them, if they're that good. We have to be very dedicated, you know, in that nine months that gives us, at least nine months that gives us we're off the market, we're off the thing. I've done a lot of reading lately around the institution of marriage is a lie. And so I'm fascinated in, you know, how we pick partners as well that women are much more interested in the smell of a man than a man is in the smell of a woman. It's triggering some things around procreation, around the idea of, will you be a good fit for me as a father, which just, you know, as if not to me.

but to my children, right? And so it's the genetics in the DNA that we're talking about shifting that the data would suggest is going to go remarkably in a different direction. So fascinating. It like blows my mind. Do you have any fears in this space? Do you have any, is there any concern for consequences? What do you feel about community, collective spaces, families?

family system dynamics, you know, as you know, you've referred to like the cousin, the family dinners, walking each other home, you know, what, yeah, give me your sense of that. Yeah. I think those stats that you shared, which I've read things like that before, where it's like, you're in a relationship, you're in a family unit as a man versus as a woman, your life experience is remarkably different, right, based on those stats of like you're more, you're suicidal, you're homicidal, or you're not. and you know to sum it up um and to me that very clearly says okay so then what is the role of

women here stability right like they're the ones if you're a man who's in a relationship with a woman so many things about your life are better because of that woman she's doing more she's supporting you emotionally she's your hype woman financially you know like whatever it is that women are doing in relationships there's a clear outcome for men who are in those relationships and in those family units. And there's a clear outcome for women that's almost negative across the board. And I talked to a lot of moms that are like, I'm happier than ever with my two-year-old. So it's not to say that you feel like crap all the time.

But when we think about the future, what does society look like? I think having more happy, stable, free women who are in their just able to access the best parts of themselves because they're not. giving so much of their life force to this family, I see that as a good thing. To have us as players in the mix, I don't picture a future where like nobody becomes a mom. That doesn't make sense. I want people to be able to get to know themselves well enough where you make the choice that's right for you. And I think if a woman who doesn't want to be a parent can go through her life without being a parent, she's going to do more for society in the world at large than a woman who doesn't really want to be a parent, and she becomes a parent.

I think that will stifle her and take away from all of us and her potential. Yeah. Oh, I love that. What is the experience? And I mean, again, I'm ignorant in the space. I want to know what it's like. I would love even the qualitative data of women who decided to not have children and are now in their 70s, now in their 80s. I'm interested. Is there any data available in this space? Like, is there even any qualitative narrative work? That is such a good question. I wish we had more, I mean, nobody's like putting out money to study child-free women. People just got into the- Not a big deal? Oh, shock on. People just figured out we exist. Today's political climate. Really? Yeah. You know what? Be able to stay,

oh, shoot. Yeah. I mean, talk about fears and worries. I worry about the child-free community. and like, you know, I know that we are enraging some people. Yeah. Yeah. I worry about things like that. I mean, the trad wife movement. Are you familiar with this term? I am.

Tadwife? Yeah. Yes. Do you have any opinions on that? I feel like I'm, you know what? Honestly, I'm happy that it exists. I feel like if that is how you want to live, you should be able to. Me saying that there's anything wrong with that is the same as them telling me my life

is wrong, right? what I want is just like it's not about comparison it's about possibility I love that for you stay home and raise eight babies and have like a field full of chickens I'm not going to do that I want to spend my time and money doing other stuff living in a big city having sex with my husband in them all the day like that's what I want to do and like we should both be we should both be allowed we should both be allowed you know with no consequence and into your point I mean and I bring that up sort of facetiously but I also really want to be clear that there is joy in all of those aspects. And I think what I love the most about your work is really pointing out that there are options.

There are opportunities for women to engage in this one precious life in multiple ways than maybe we grew up with. And I think even still have expectations of our daughters around. And I think that's the data I'm most interesting, you know, interested. in, and just really as the roles change in this last, even one generation, right? What we've traded role clarity for is freedom, and I wouldn't do anything different around that. There's a cost to that freedom because we are humans that need predictability and clarity. That regulates our nervous system.

Okay. So if 30 years ago you were born into this world and 50 years ago, let's go a little bit further, 60 years ago, because I'm 50, fuck, I keep forgetting that. So 60 years. Let's go 75. When you were born then and you had a vagina, you knew your job. Whether you wanted it necessarily or not, it actually wasn't a conversation for 99% of women. Now, there's some regulating issue in there, right, which is like, I know I'm supposed to find a husband.

I know I'm supposed to have children. I know I'm supposed to be very good at like fucking making bread or something like that. Okay. Now there is, and the data is really clear about this, right, that there is such regulation and role clarity. Here is my job. Okay. In one generation, two maybe, we have traded freedom, which we have fought so vehemently

for, right? In my lifetime, you couldn't get your own credit card as a woman. Okay, so that that's changed, like being able to, I mean, we still have one term for a man. It's a mister. We have multiple terms to identify to the world whether I'm married or not. Miss, Mrs. or Miss. And Miss is tricky, huh? Does that mean she's divorced when it got one S?

Right. She never do it. She's being saucy. When you got two S is that woman, she got nothing yet. You just wait. She wide open that one. Were she young? You know?

I don't know why I got an accent there. But anyway. But so I'm, I'm, the double standard is very interesting to me. And now we're setting into this place where you can be anything, do anything. Okay. So I'm a part, we're a part of that generation, which is such a gift. And I find myself in this position where the expectations of then being a mother, having children, and being successful. And having, you know, being the CEO of your own company and potentially making more money than your partner. And, oh, are you going to make it to practice tonight? Oh, you're not. Oh, got it. You know, I am fascinated on the mental well-being

of women. Do you see that shifting in the circles in which you are empowering women to consider their options, to be the beacon for women who are, I mean, this is the most I love about you is because it's like, you're like, here's my choice. It doesn't have to be you. worse, but you can make it in a regulated way that says even when people are going to come for me, yes, it's hurt my heart a little bit, but I can also stand true in my own truth and say, yeah, ask me, tell me, what's the issue? Come on, right? And we talked about this the last time around you being angry about this, right? And I get, I don't know how you're not more anger, but like the question is, you know, you said to me, I think something about like, you can also just get so

steadfast in defending this that you're just like, fuck everybody. But you're like, I've had to do a lot of work in not being like that. I understand the intention behind many of these questions or I'm going to hope the intention behind many of these questions is for good. And when it's against the norm, there is the expectation that there may have to be some conversation in there, whether that's fucking fair or not. I think the concept, the big picture here that we're talking about, like this duality between freedom, personal freedom, and societal construct. I do think that's real. And, you know, we can talk about women's mental health, which we should. I sometimes wonder, and you are much more expert in this as a mental health professional, I wonder, we talk so

much about men's mental health, or we should be talking about it more, how men are struggling, suicide rates. I almost wonder if the societal, if breaking of some of these traditions where the man is always the provider, the woman always submits, you know, if we go back 75 plus years, I sort of feel like men don't know what to do, right, in this scenario. And then women are like, problem we'll do literally everything and that's where you get to we'll have a baby we'll paint the house we'll start a business we'll go to practice and like that neither of those are working for either party i do feel encouraged like when i see data like those numbers going up of people who are selecting to be to not marry selecting to not have children i hope it's the majority of those people

are doing that because we are in a space where we have more time to get to know ourselves there's a self-care industry now. There's a wellness industry. There was no wellness industry, you know, even when I was a not that long ago. So I think there's more consciousness around therapy, self-awareness. I hope people are making a decision for that, not making a decision of fear or like the whole, you know, the earth's on fire. I'm not going to bring a baby into it, although I do think that's some of it. And I think like your question about is there data from women in their 70s or their 80s, how do they feel about this?

I don't have quantitative data, but I've interviewed some of those women. And like one comes to mind in particular. She's, I think she's 83 now. She was a pioneer in the child-free community. She sort of accidentally wound up on 60 minutes, wait, like in the 60s, I believe, talking about being child-free. She got death threats. She was a teacher.

She got fired. She, like, everything in her life was blown up. I mean, her parents so disappointed. Her in-laws devastated, that she would not only feel this way, but share this publicly. Like, you must be insane. Like, I think somebody told her, like, I would have rather you been in, like, a sex cult, right? Like, they were like, this is the worst thing you could do. Oh, my God.

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. But thank God. She did that in the 60s. Like, that opens the door, right? Then she communes with another woman who feels the same way. And it's like, oh, my God, I have a sister in this secret that I secretly don't want to have a baby. And it goes on from there.

So in her life of 83 years, she's thrilled to see the progress, right? That somebody like me can just start a podcast and like nobody burned my house down on the first day. I got comments on the first day that I was dangerous for women, but that was a little bit and the rest of it was supportive. So I see things changing and I'm not marking progress by like, oh, good, less people are having children. I have no interest in that.

I hope we're marking progress and that more women are asking questions. thinking for themselves, not just jumping into whatever decision, including the choice to have children. Yeah. So my question then is, what is happening in the male space? Are there, will there be men who are also considering this option that fatherhood isn't their only option? Is that data shifting as well?

Because if we have women who were sort of empowering to. not have children, is your options then more limited? Like, I don't actually really hear about the answer so much because I don't think you should make a choice because you can't find. But like, is that going to be then a limiting factor at all? You know, like, so are, do you have to stay single? Like, how did you get like, do you? Because there's two, if we're talking about, you know, heterosexual couples, I mean, the data in homosexual couples, I think it would be really interesting too but you know tell me a little bit about is there a trend for men to sort of question whether they they have to to become fathers i think so i mean my husband came to this conclusion on

his own right we would have never he would have never been my husband if he had not already decided for himself that he wanted to be child free that was like a deal breaker for me right um and for him like he knew himself by the time we met at 29 i have other male friends now, some in relationships, some not, who are, you know, they're asking me questions. And they're like, I just kind of thought like I had to be a dad. But like in some cases, they're saying my dad really wasn't around. He was working all the time. I don't want to be a dad like that. But being a dad that's like there all the time, I don't really know if I can do that. Like yes. And again, like to me, the progress is the questions. Like they're admitting they're unsure. They're trying to think it through.

They're crowdsourcing from people they trust. You know, they're exploring the. topic. And I think there is, as much as we're talking about freedom and more choice and looking at this data, which is societally shifting, there's also a groundswell movement. You mentioned tradwives of people who feel completely differently. And they want a real focus on the traditional family unit. And, you know, they're going back to some very conservative, but I would say, like, really outdated views on like, who does what in the family unit. Or traditional, I don't even know if that, yeah, like, I want to be very careful that I'm not judgmental in that space, but like, I think it's very traditional ways. Hey, like, yeah, back to you pink

rolls and blue rolls. Totally, totally. And that movement is gaining traction too. So, you know, I think there's plenty of people on both sides. I sometimes, I wish I knew more about how men feel. Like, all I can do, I'm not a man, right? So I can kind of say what I'm, what I observe in my world and and what men come to me with and ask me about. But I think there's, I don't know, I think there's questioning happening and there's men who are going like, I want a wife who stays at home and we're going to have kids and we're going to do it the old school way. And I think there's men who are like, I want an independent woman and let's just never do

the traditional thing. Yeah, yeah, 100%. And I think, and again, I think to reader at your point, I don't know that there's a right or, in fact, I know there's not a right or wrong in this place. I think that what I hear you say in so much of your work is really just to be clear that your own internal understanding of your desires is where everything lies. And I think that that becomes, that will be the greatest predictor of what you feel like in your 70s and your 80s.

If you are not clear about that and you are sort of like, okay, well, I fell in love with this guy and he doesn't want this, so I don't either. or I fell in love with this woman and she wants this. So I guess I do too. Like recipe for disaster, but so common, right? In that we let sort of love lead the way and lose sight of our values because we've never actually had to question them, which means we never did. And part of the questions that I wish many young people, you know, getting into relationships,

developing, you know, even their sexual practices, but also, you know, committing in relationships is really like, okay, whoa, whoa, whoa, time out. What do you want? Not what your mama wants you to do. What, you know, given the data you have right now in this moment, and I guess, like, in all fairness, that might change, you know, your 20-year-old brain is likely going to operate a bit different than your 50-year-old brain. Got it.

But you can only make decisions about what you have in the moment. That internal work becomes, I think, the key. And I fear that that's going to be harder and harder to do because they're such readily available data that that that we're just inundated with you know that you can get on the TikTok anytime you want right that you know I think everybody is going to you get sort of depending on who you follow or what you love or you know whatever you're it's not social media it's just media because you follow who you think is the greatest but I the idea is sort of like can we really internally challenge that sit with our own beliefs and values and where those come

from and and you know not really is like how important important do you think that is? I think that is so well said. I think that's everything. I think that is everything. Like get that deep self-awareness of who you are and what you want and also holding space for that to change. As you said, life is long. I mean, if I felt the same on every topic that right now that I did when I was 18, to me that would show, well, you've done absolutely nothing with your life. You haven't opened your mind at all. You haven't met anybody new. You haven't taken in any outside perspective. of course it should shift and grow. That's what curiosity is all about.

Like our brains have to keep changing to stay nimble and for us to be healthy and cognitive and all those things. But yeah, I think that deep awareness of self and not being influenced by the guy I fell in love with us in college wants life to go this way. I'll just follow suit. It'll probably be fine. I'm sure I'll be happy when we get there. I'm sure I can make it work.

You know, I think we examine these things. and people like me who are doing the less common, less popular choice, I think there are a whole lot of people who are in situations, marriages, parenting, who feel some of these things, too. But now it's like, well, you know, I already signed up. Like, I've already done this. You can't get off this ride. Yeah. Right.

And not that they're unhappy, you know, but I think this questioning kind of exists within all of us. We haven't always had the opportunity to tune into it. And I hope now we can. Yeah. Oh, man. Do you ever fear or do anybody in your, you know, who you speak to ever fear this that, that they'll wake up one day in their 60s and regret it? I mean, I'm sure many people ask you this question. Like, you know, and so I wonder that like without, you know, do you ever have that concern? I mean, you, it sounds to me like you've known so deeply for such a long period of time. But is that a concern for anybody that you know, for you, for you know, for your husband? Yeah. When I interviewed the 83-year-old that I mentioned, her name is Marsha, Drette Davis. I highly, like, she is a life force. She is precious. She's dedicated her life, really, to normalizing and celebrating this choice. And, you know, she proudly talks about, I think it's important to her to say, I'm 82. I'm 83 now. Still no regrets. Still no regrets. But in our, yes, it is beautiful. And it's inspiring to the woman who is 24 and things. So I feel like I'm sure now. But like, how do I know? what it's going to feel like when I'm 45 and all my best friends are at little league practice. And of course, we have those questions. And when I interviewed with Marcia, we talked about the fact that there's going to be grief either way.

And I think that's a thing I used to be afraid to admit because I was like, no, no, not me. I'm really sure. Other people, sure, you're sure, but like, no, not like I am sure. And I think the admission that there will probably be a day. this hasn't happened yet, but there will probably be a day where my brother, my best friend, I don't know, something with a baby, right? And I will think, like, could that have been me? Should that have been me?

What would my life be if that was me? And maybe there will be a twinge of like, there are experiences I will never have. I will never know what it's like to be pregnant, what it's like to have my baby look in my eyes. These things that people talk about, I will never know. But as soon as I say, I'm like, I don't need to know. that like it's it goes back to this knowing i don't want to pretend like i'll never i can't anticipate everything i'm ever going to feel and i'm sure there'll be some seconds of sadness but it feels so minute to me compared to my choice that brings me joy 99.8% of the time but i think opening that

window gives a lot of people permission it's not that you'll necessarily feel a hundred percent every single day till the day that you die we only get to go one way on this you can't have kids and then decide to go back. You can't, you know, you can't decide you want them when you're 75 and with today's technology. So I think that admission of grief either way can be very freeing to people. Oh, what a healthy response. I think, I think that's key.

Like, we will have grief in all of the decisions that happen in our lives either way, you know, like there's only so much you can do in one life. So I think that is so profound. I wanted to circle back to one thing because I've been thinking about this a lot. You said, you know, the idea of women sort of being very bold enough to choose not to have children. If I, again, I don't come back to this data, about 45% of American women will be single and child free. I am hopeful that a lot of that will be in a place where women sort of understand and are making that choice for themselves. What I fear a little bit, and I'm interested in your opinion on this, is the double standard that continues to play out at least.

for the next foreseeable generations in my mind about the caregiving role that women have had to take. I've heard various terms in this place of, you know, man carrying or, that's probably the wrong term, but the idea of like, you're investing so much in, you know, keeping families together, keeping systems together that the women are the ones that sort of orchestrate the family reunions and the funerals and the births and the parties and all the things. And, you know, which is, you know, played out in the data than that men stay healthier in marriages where women don't necessarily, which is not always true, but I'm just saying, you know, in some cases. And for my own personal experience, I've talked about this on here before a couple of times, you know, where I really get

into this place in my 50s going like, holy fuck, like I orchestrated it like this. I was always the one in my family system where people could lean on. I, yep, I'll take it. I got it. Yep, no, I'm your girl. Help me. I was the best auntie before I had, you know, my own children. And yep, I got it. Everybody's coming together. No, honey, I got it. I'll talk to your mom. I'll get your, your brothers.

Yeah, no, let me talk to, yeah, Joe's got it. Just give, you know, and now I'm fucking mad about it. Now I'm like, you know what? I'm out. I'm out. Can you imagine, like, I love my job so much because I'm on the road. I love my job as much as I love my children and sometimes more. And that is asinine.

that is asinine for people to say that you understand i get more joy from my work than my children because they're exhausting life-sucking humans who i adore to the core but i am on a bit of a crusade to allow women to have the permission to love their work more than they love their children doesn't mean you're not going to care for your children or love them or all the things huh but it's almost like that's also not cool if you've chosen to have children you better fucking love it right you do right you do right you really do you really oh you're joking you really love your kids you love your kids more than your work actually no i don't i mean do i love my children yes but would i much prefer having a conversation with this brilliant human today where nobody

can get in here this good yep yes yes i feel way more competent than trying to decide whether i'm going to let you go at 12 years old to the rodeo tonight with three of your best friends, two of whom I think are don't even like you. And I'm scared to somebody you're going to get attacked. Yeah, I don't. That's too much. This is easy. This is joy. My dope means fire in here. You know? Yeah. Totally. That is so important. Okay. Thank you for saying all of that because, okay, we talked about permission a little bit. There's so much nuance that needs to be normalized, right? You can be a mom, and I'm not saying this is you. You can be a mom and hate it 50% of the time.

You can be a mom who outsources child care because she does have a really powerful position and she knows she's at her best self when she's in that office job. And yes, society judges that for sure. Just like they judge somebody who says, I'm just not going to have kids at all, right? Because then they just assume we probably didn't for all those reasons that you're like one foot in, one foot out, allegedly. And it's like, it's all real. It's all real.

We all know. you just said it out loud publicly. Thank you for that. I could name five women right now. I won't who I know feel the same way. And they tell me two glasses of wine in when it's like, okay, you're a safe person. I got to tell the truth to somebody. I hate this about my life. This one piece. I love it big picture. I wouldn't change it. I don't regret it. But this is killing me. I resent so and so. I wish I you know, all the things, right? Like, it's all so real. And yet we just feel like if I say it out loud, like the world, the world will hate me. I will be so judged. And it's because we have a lot of evidence that that's true. But I think that's what keeps us in these little cages. Like,

it's hard enough to get to know ourselves and really deeply listen to our intuition and understand what we want. It's a whole other hurdle to then go do it, to put it out there and answer questions about it. So I think you having a show like this where you explore the topics that you do and you speak so honestly on how you feel, hopefully having a show that celebrates and normalizes child-free conversations, I think all those things make it just a little bit easier. It's like, okay, we all have something to share. I'll go first. Here's what I want to do, right? And then the next woman's like, okay, maybe I can say it. I just think that ripple effect is massive for like female joy. Amen. And I mean, it reminds me of this quote, like, that happens often in the

child's life space, but you have to name it to tame it. And I think that it's so critical to be able to identify that, like, this is hard, particularly in the world of having children and watching people not have children. Like, parenting is only going to get harder. So it should be exhausting. It should be, you know, with the, the inundation of social media and, you know, you know, like being able to monitor and stay connected to and disconnected from, like, I think that we need community now more than ever. And to be able to sort of admit to the fact that we don't, we can't do it all is such a brave thing because, again, you're creating community.

Like, and that's the question all the time, right? How do you do it all? I don't. Like, we have a nanny. I mean, our mother, my mother, Aaron's mom, like, tied into everything that we did to raise these babies. And I am better, I think, in my role as a mom when I admit that I'm not a super fan of being there all the time. I love being on the road. Like, you should see what happens when I pick up Marty in the morning. It's 6 a.m. I don't even know. I mean, I've been up since four

because I got, I'm going to pack my suitcase. They're like, is it so hard being away from your kids? No. The whole day room with one of my best friends drinking wine and I'm phoning. How's La Cros? Oh shit. The parents are fighting. Oh, shoot. Are you work? I'm working. Mommy's working. Mommy's working. Like, again, right? Like, I think as women, there is this conversation that we can have about, you know, what it looks like for you means all I want to know is where do you feel it. When it feels like home for you. And that is whether you've chosen not to have children or what it's like to navigate a life where you maybe want a children and don't have them. or couldn't have them, or you've had children and you question it. Like any of us on this spectrum, come home. You're home.

There is no right choice. What I'm most interested in, and I think, Emily, you've just said it so beautifully today, is where does it land here? Where does it land? What did you want? What did you need? What do you want and need? And how do we make that okay in this moment?

How do we, as a community of humans, talk about what it's like to, you know, have intersectionality in this place? too, right? You know, like people, women of color, people on the spectrum, people who, you know, are in homosexual relationships, polyamorous relationships. What does that look like when you make decisions to or not have children? It's just, it's such a thing that the world is just a revolved around that I'm just so grateful for you bringing this question to the table. Because you're right, that is the first question, if not the second. You know, what do you do and do you have children? Mm-hmm. It all starts there, doesn't I?

it all starts there and there's so there's so much to each of us and the facets of who we are and what we do and what we have to add to the world and I love the way you summed that up I'm so I'm so grateful to you to have the opportunity to share about this and I think the word you used intersection is so big too it is about community I don't want an island where I only hang out with other child free people I want to help right like there's things we can all do to support each other my best friend who had a baby here recently i'll go over there and do stuff for two hours like give me a job give me a task like i know you need it i'm not less of a gift i know you're the greatest gift i know like we can we can all bend to our strengths right and i do

think that village that community we've talked on my show with you you're a genius around how disjointed we're becoming as a society how do we heal that how do they how do we reconnect that i think it's embracing these differences and letting us live in the difference and then benefiting from those things. Like, I have more time than you do right now. Great. I'll do the grocery shop. Like, whatever. You know, I think there's so much potential there if we can just get out of our own way with like, what's the right choice, let each other be ourselves and then support each other. And it takes a village, not only to raise a child, but to raise a healthy community. And I think that that that's what it comes down to. I mean, this is the universal truth. We've

always known to be true. But I think when we get back to that place, that's where we need to land in this disconnected place. So Emily Paulson, come on. That was the funnest conversation I've had in a very long time. I am going to, this is like my favorite episode of season three, maybe even season two, maybe even season one, add them all together. Fuck, I love this. Thank you so much for being you. Thank you. What an honor. Thank you. You're welcome. And I cannot wait. I'm going to take everything in the show notes, you're going to find where you can find M and all the things that she's doing. And listen, in the meantime, drop your shoulders, wherever you are right now, wherever this finds you. I'm so glad you found us. And I can't wait to meet

you right back here next time. You know, the more we do this, people ask, why do you have to do the acknowledgement and every episode? I got to tell you, I've never been more grateful for being able to raise my babies on the land where so much sacrifice was made. And I think what's really critical in this process is that the ask is just that we don't forget. So the importance of saying these words at the beginning of every episode will always be of utmost importance to me and this team. So everything that we created here today for you happened on Treaty 7 land, which is now known as a center part of the province of Alberta. It is home of the Blackfoot Confederacy, which is made up of the Siksika, the Kainai, the Piccany, the Titina First Nation, the Stony-Nakota First Nation, and the Métis Nation Region 3. Our job, our job as humans, is to simply acknowledge each other.

That's how we do better, be better, and stay connected to the good. The Unloanly podcast is produced by three incredible humans, Brian Siever, Taylor McGilvery, and Jeremy Saunders, all of Snack Lab productions. Our executive producer, my favorite human on this planet, is Marty Pillar. Soundtracks were created by Donovan Morgan, Unloney branded artwork created by Elliot Cuss, our big PR shooters,

are Desvino and Barry Cohen. Our digital marketing manager is the amazing Shana Hadden. Our 007 secret agent from the Talent Bureau is Jeff Lowness. And emotional support is provided by Asher Grant, Evan Grant, and Olivia Grant. Go live! I am a registered clinical psychologist in Alberta, Canada. The content created and produced in this show is not intended as specific therapeutic advice. The intention of this podcast is to provide information, resources, education, and the one thing I think we all need the most, a safe place to land in this lonely world.

We're all so glad you're here. I'm going to be able to be.