Unlonely with Dr. Jody Carrington - Nobody Cares About Your Career—And That's Your Superpower - Erika Ayers Badan

Episode Date: January 2, 2025

The hardest truth is often the most liberating: nobody cares about your career—but Erika Ayers Badan is here to show you why that’s your superpower. In this episode, Erika reflects on her groundbreaking tenure as CEO of Barstool Sports, the chaos, creativity, and humanity behind its success, and the power of building trust in unconventional places. From navigating criticism to balancing motherhood, leadership, and her own insecurities, Erika’s insights are raw, real, and refreshingly honest. Plus, hear how her new role at Food52 and a mission-driven board position are teaching her patience, perspective, and the art of reinvention.Find More Erika:LinkedIn Website InstagramX TikTokYouTube Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Visit go.acast.com slash ads to get started today. at the beginning of every episode there will always be time for an acknowledgement you know the more we do this people ask why do you have to do the acknowledgement and every episode, there will always be time for an acknowledgement. You know, the more we do this, people ask, why do you have to do the acknowledgement and every episode? I got to tell you, I've never been more grateful for being able to raise my babies on a land where so much sacrifice was made. And I think what's really critical in this process is that the ask is just that we don't forget. So the importance of saying these words at the beginning of every episode will always be of utmost importance to me and this team. So everything that we created here today for you happened on Treaty 7 land, which is now known as the center part of the province of Alberta. It is home of the Blackfoot Confederacy, which is made up of the Siksika, the Kainai, the Pekinni, the Tatina First Nation, the Stony Nakota First Nation, and the Métis Nation Region 3. Our job, our job as humans is to simply acknowledge each other. That's how we do better, be better, and stay connected

to the good. Welcome back. Welcome in, my dear humans. Drop your shoulders with me. Deep breath. You are about to embark on my favorite episode. I want to introduce you to somebody who I have just admired for years. The most badass, unapologetic, brilliant human, and I cannot believe she took this interview. Erica Ayers-Badam is a digital innovator, a disruptor, and seasoned executive on the cutting edge of content creation, distribution, monetization of premier and culturally relevant content. You may know her best as the former CEO of Barstool Sports. If you know me at all, you know I'm a massive sports fan. And I was a massive non-fan sometimes of, you know me at all, you know, I'm a massive sports fan and I was a massive non-fan sometimes of, you know, what it means women in sport and culture and, you know, the misogynistic approaches

to how the world is ran. And, um, Erica took on the role of one of the first CE or one of the first females into this very, um, male dominated system of barstool and turned it on, turned it on its head. She, I mean, this is what just blew my mind. She led the company through explosive growth, 5,000% increase in revenue and significantly more audience in her time with them, less than a decade. And she created so many things that started so many people's careers. And she, in this episode, we talk about how she did it. And her and I drill into the things that people don't know about her that are surprising about her and really how to the core of her she understands humanity. That so many people, particularly in a male-dominated sports world, are walking around

very lonely. And she is the ultimate of connectors. She is now the CEO of a phenomenal company that she has been a part of for a very long time called Food 52, which is a recipe and cookware website, founded, female founded. And she's diving all in. We are also going to talk about some of the other boards that she sits on in this episode that just blew me away. She, you know what I love the most about this episode? And if you don't, if you don't watch it and you just listen to it, as our time together went on in this interview, we started to turn toward each other more and more, right? Like, you know, our chairs were sort of side by side. We taped this episode in New York and it was live, which was, I think, just so want to understand the power of women in creating massive waves in organizations, this one's for you. Buckle up. Welcome back. Welcome in. I am just, this is an interview that I have thought a lot about. I've

been so nervous about it. I have one of the bad assestest humans on the planet. Just wrote, just written a book that I've read that just I think is such a critical manuscript for understanding how you step into creating a career that you understand its place. The title of the book, Why Does Nobody Care About Your Career? I want to know, why does nobody care about your career? Why? Like this is the title. Erica, ours, but Dawn is in the house. Hello. Tell me everything. I want to know why you wrote this book. Oh, I wrote this book for like a thousand reasons. One was I really love to work.

And to the topic of being lonely, I always really felt comfortable at work. When I was in high school, I had like a busboy job. You're probably not supposed to call it that, but I had a busboy job at a restaurant. I would smell like fried food and like disgusting leftovers. But I liked making money. I liked having something to do. I made a game every night about how fast I could clear the tables and how how many dishes I could carry in my brown little bucket. I've always really loved to work and I've always cared a lot about work. And I spent a lot of time in my career, I think, caring too much about work or being too emotional about work. And we had just sold Barstool Sports. I was the CEO of Barstool Sports.

We had just sold it to a bigger company, Penn Entertainment. And I had been, you know, on this pirate ship for eight years of creativity. I love how you call it a pirate ship. Oh, it's totally a pirate ship. I mean, I will give a big disclaimer here around Barstool Sports. And I think here's what I love about Dave Portnoy, what I love about this group. It is so asinine in so many ways and so fucked up and so brilliant all at the same time. I've never seen the marriage of such badassery.

And then they put the first female CEO at the head of this. And a disruptor is what they say you are. And I think the explosive growth, 5,000% in revenue and significantly more audience in the less than a decade that you were there. In the first year, you did such remarkable things. You, the world is sort of taken away. You've been the number one, the best woman here, the best person here, the most productive woman in sports and in media and all of the things. And the transition into stepping into this place is such my question, right?

Oh, it's crazy. Nobody, the title of this book is remarkable to me, because your career was everything. Yes. Yeah, I think, you know, for me, stepping into barstool sports was tantamount to career suicide, as defined by most of the people I know. I joined barstool, I was fired from every board I sat on. Stop it. Yes. So they were like, you take this. This is a massive risk. Did you realize the massive risk? I realized it, but I was naive about how rabid the audience was,

and I was naive about how much the establishment didn't like Barstool, even though Barstool was still very small compared to what it is now. I was on the board of – I was just about to be named to the board of NARAL, which is in the U.S., the Abortion Rights League. And they called me and said, you can't, you know, we won't have you if you take this job. And I said, okay, like that sucks. And I guess I respect it. But I also was like, abortion is a topic that applies to women and men. So why would you not want me in this job? Like, I actually could be a bigger catalyst to you by making men advocates for women's reproductive rights. But I was like,

fuck it, whatever. You don't want me to be on? I don't want to be on. But long story short, I took the job. I was kind of cast out of some of the circles I had run in. I also had people who were cheering and rooting and ready. But it was very noisy and it was very loud. And it was there was a lot to be done in a very short amount of time in the midst of a tremendous amount of chaos. And the reason Barstool is so chaotic is at the time there were 12 guys or 12 to 15 guys. And they started every day with a blank page and a singular mission just to make people laugh and get people to pay attention, which basically means offend somebody. Like that's how you get reaction. When you don't have any money, you don't have any resources,

opinion that gets reaction is the only way to grow. And they were, Dave Portnoy is the best person to do that on the planet. Insanely offensive. Insanely offensive. In the most endearing way,

I find. Like, you know, he said it when I joined, which was, Barstool has offended most everyone. And I can, you know, I remember going on Fox or something and that was like the cron title. And I was like, this is like

the best summation ever. Yes. But I quickly learned that I was either going to apologize for having gone to Barstool or for everything Barstool had done, or I could build it. And I think that's true for people's lives, which is partly why I wrote the book, which is nobody cares about your career is a really freeing, great thing, which is, you I wrote the book, which is nobody cares about your career is a really freeing, great thing, which is, you know, you have to put aside your ego, you have to put aside your insecurity and just get to doing something. But also, stop trying to justify your choices to everybody else, they really don't care. And so get to doing you. And the sooner you get clarity on that, the happier you'll be.

So there's two questions that I have about that because I say this all the time, like you, it is a job. Whatever we do, it is a job. Who you go home to matters most, okay? How did you handle the questioning of your character? Because I think that that's the thing that gets me the most, right? Whether, like I feel like doing good work

or doing public-facing work, which in comparison is very small to yours, but I just mean, like, when people now get such access to you. Yep. All the time. Yep. And the intention behind much of what you did,

including choosing to take this position, right? Which was like, I think I can make a massive impact in this world. I think I can actually, you know, have those hard conversations in the corners where it appears like nobody's having those conversations but I know differently. How do you navigate that when it's like the significant outward-facing questioning of your character became so prominent? Oh, it was – I mean it was constant. It is still constant. It's still constant. It's still constant. I think being public and you've probably you're experiencing this probably even more than me to a degree is it it hardens you.

It makes you it makes you develop very thick skin. It gives you an awareness of your surroundings and it makes gives you a very intense desire to protect what is actually precious. For me, I didn't really care. So I mean, there was so much so many haters of Barstool and to the offending everyone, there was always someone mad, there was always someone mad. And right next to the person who was mad was someone who was like, you're an idiot, you suck, you look like the guy from mask, like, it trolls just troll. I mean, it's like amazing was like, you're an idiot. You suck. You look like the guy from Mask. Like, it trolls, just trolls constantly. I mean, it's like amazing. Like, you're so ugly. Why do you do that? And after a while, you just, you know, you have to stop reading it. You know, it was always really, it was interesting, the difference between male talent and female talent, for the

most part, not exclusively, but the comment section and the internet is just a dark, nasty little place. Like it's beautiful and everything you can discover and find, but it is also really nasty. And were there tears for me? Were there? Yes. No. How?

Because I was like, I don't, I don't care that much. I care about who I am inside and I'm not perfect and I'm on a journey. I care about the people I love. I cared about what I was building and the people I was building it with. And I was like, if I'm going to get upset, I'm not going to get upset because someone says you're an idiot and fat and stupid and, you know, your face, your forehead's too big and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're no good. You ruined Barstool. Like, I'm not going to get upset over that. Did you have somewhere to put it? Like, are you a one woman show who is just like, I'm so steadfastly clear that you can fucking

throw anything at me and I got it? Or is there a place where it had to go? I think I have a tremendous amount of self-loathing and it fuels a lot of momentum. Like I am a machine. What? Okay, so just a second. The people loathe you. You loathe yourself. And then I'm like, I'm just going to get shit done. Wow.

I try to make it. That's a formula that I have never. It's probably not a good one. Wow. I feel like therapy's next. I cannot wait. I just felt like the more I could channel the things I was insecure about or worried about or anxious about. And double down. And double down. And the more people didn't believe or challenged it, the more I was like, you know what? I'm just going to show you. Wow. And so – and I always tried to take all the negativity, I guess, and like kind of put it into love for what I was trying to create and who I was trying to create it for.

Yeah. And I felt like if I could just like be a filtration system and make it positive, that would be a good thing. And so at the end of it all, I mean, as I was reading through the book, you know, I think you've that I just I really reflect on this as we sort of do changes as a woman. And you know, the questions about, you know, what about your children? What about, you know, do you care about you said this, you used to be accessible. Everyone wants to ride in the limo, but no one wants to, you know, we'll take the bus with you when the limo breaks down. I mean, what has that experience been like for you? I never intended to be public. So I think for me, I find it fairly strange and bizarre, to be honest with you. I don't live for it.

There will be some day when I'm done this chapter that I will ride off into the sunset and never to be heard from again. And I'm excited for that, to be honest. Yes. heard from again. And I'm excited for that, to be honest. So I'm, I, I also, though, feel an obligation where when I took the Barstool job, it was very public. And I was very naive to that. Like, I think I had 2000 Twitter followers when I joined Barstool or X or whatever. And then overnight, I had 50,000. And I was like, ah. Do you remember that moment?

I remember. And it actually was moderately terrifying. Yeah. But my piece of it was, you know what? There's not a whole lot of women in CEO positions. There's not a lot of women. All the women I looked up to had to be perfect and really act like men, to be honest with you. And I was like, you know what?

Like, fuck it. Like, if I'm here, I didn't intend to be here. It wasn't my grand plan. I'm somewhat uncomfortable with it, I would say, even to this day. some girl in a marketing department at an ad agency in her 20s who's like, maybe I could do something and be myself and not and have all my flaws, then it's worth me continuing to like duke it out. Well, I can tell you, like, that's how I found you is that somebody, a patient of mine said, Can you tell me, can I tell you who is getting me through the dark days? And I was like, tell me. And she's like, have you ever heard of the Token CEO? And I was like, yes. And she's like, I listen all the

time to what it was like. And I think that your ability to navigate that and be so public about that is remarkable to me that you would say, listen, I never wished to do that. But as you're building, yeah, as you were building the media brands of so many others you then also were committed to being very forward-facing giving advice yeah people would call in with these desperate questions I mean you were the ultimate psychotherapist I would listen to be like what's she gonna do with this one you're probably like that was bad advice not at all no because I, authentically, and this is this is so true. And this is your everything I hoped you would be because you truly are just so clear to this place of like, no, this is like, it's not gonna be easy. If we expected that to be true. Right. And I think this is, you know, the book is so phenomenal in this place where we talk about, or you talk about, right? Nobody's gonna care about it. It's going to be in the quiet moments. Definitely.

What was the most important? Like, why was this book so important at this time? It was important to me because I was starting to get a lot of DMs. Like at this point, I probably get a couple hundred DMs a week of like, hey, my boss is an idiot, or I'm getting harassed at work. Or I had a woman write me last night who's like, I just had my second kid. I have postpartum depression. I want to start a startup. I'm afraid to leave my corporate job. What do I do? And I was spending my time on the train, on the phone, just DMing people. And after a while, I was like, this is kind of ridiculous and inefficient. Like I'm just like sending all these DMs. And I had a lot to say about work. We had sold the company and I was feeling that

this wildness that I had been a part of was now getting more rigid and more like, what's the financial forecast next Wednesday? And if you're looking for a CEO to give you a predictable package financial report, I'm not getting the job. Like I am not your girl. If you're looking to grow a company and build something, I am. And so that lack of creativity, I started to write the book on my phone on my commute. And it was actually good for me. And, you know, hopefully it's helpful and good for other people.

Okay. So this is my favorite thing that I think you've said all the time. So you know Jeff Jacobson, who is the agency that represents me. And he often talked about how amazing you were. And for many years, I felt like years were probably months. But I was like, do you think I could ever meet her? And he's like, the time will be right someday. I love Jeff Jacobson.

Oh, yes. I love him. You. And I asked him, I said, what does nobody ask her? You tell me about why you think she's so great. And like, what do you think? You know, and he said, I don't think anybody knows how she managed that growth. So 12 employees to over 307 years. And he said, you remained largely accessible to all of them. That you knew them as people. You know, when I often think about my favorite hockey coach said this, and I say this all the time,

you should see how fast I can get a kid to skate when I know the name of their dog. And that really reminds me of his take of you. Oh, that's nice. That it was so people focused. And that I think, you know, I've watched multiple interviews that you've done. And so many people are interested in, you know, the audacity and the, you know, Portnoy's take on things and like how you would navigate all of that. And you know, why do you want to be in that space? But there's such a

humanity to the way that you built that company. Yeah, I loved it. I loved them. Like I really, I gave them my all. Like I really left it all on the field. And I was honestly so happy to. When I got to Barstool Sports, you know, they were so welcoming. So for everything everyone said about Barstool, it could not have been more untrue. Really?

That, you know, Dave gave me the floor immediately. He was an exceptional partner, single best person I will ever have worked with. Wow. And it wasn't just Dave. The work ethic and the commitment and their drive, and I kind of just fell in love with them. And I also pushed them insanely hard to go to places where I thought we needed to go. And the thing that was so inspiring was I would push and they would do it and they would fuck it up a thousand times in the middle.

But they always took it to a place that I didn't imagine. And they could take everything so much further. And to your point, it was probably till we had about 250 people, I had everyone in my phone. And I made a point of having everyone's number in my phone. Because at Barstool, it was just really volatile. And it would be late Friday night or early Sunday morning where something would happen. And I cared about them individually and as people. And I think that that's a lot of what people forgot about Barstool is that they are people. Like when Dave was going through all Dave's stuff, you know, I asked him every day, are you OK?

Like not like, hey, here's how we're going to manage it or blah, blah, blah. Like it was like, are you OK? Like, not like, hey, here's how we're going to manage it or blah, blah, blah. Like, it was like, are you okay? Like, how are you doing? And the other piece of it was we brought a lot of people who came from really crazy, weird corners of the earth. And Dave's gift was to find people and pluck them and put them into the middle of this chaos. And I felt like my job was to make sure that they had a home and that they were safe. My job was to make sure they had a home and they were safe. I think that is probably the single most important thing you've ever said in the history of the free world.

Okay? Maybe. Because here's what I know to be true from a psychologist perspective, as a parent, as a mom, the greatest gift we will ever give our children is the capacity to regulate emotion. Okay. So how to stay common times of distress. I would love your take on this. I say the future is female all the time. Now I have two sons and a daughter. It's not about penises and vaginas. The greatest thing that would be brought into any organization is the capacity to regulate emotion. And when I watched you step into this

very dysregulated state of beautiful souls that needed somebody to walk them home again and again and again, I love your take on, you know, you walked in, there's no P&L. Nobody knew what Slack was. I have no idea. Holy fuck, look at this did any dinner's on me yeah and you were like okay bring it on home and there was such you know even as i watch and we're going to talk about you what you've transitioned into now this capacity as a leader to take no shit but to do it all with kindness definitely would you say that's your mantra right you open with this sense of I need to pull you home and then I will call you to the mat in that order. Definitely.

I think at Barstool, they gave so much to give to this thing and I felt that my job was to make it successful and to make them successful. And, you know, I can remember I had this guy, Devlin, who, you know, Devlin was an intern for a thousand years and I caught him one day in the winter wearing like gym shorts and loafers.

And I was like, hey, Devlin, like it's like two degrees outside, like what's up? And Devlin's like well this is these are my clothes like this is this is he he what he was doing is he would take castaways from the merch closet because he had an internship like he didn't make really any money at all and and then I was like well where'd you get the shoes and he was like oh these are Dave's loafers from when Dave moved from Boston so the loafers at this point were like six years old. And I remember going online and ordering Devlin pants and sneakers that night, which he still wears today.

And I'm like, when people are like, oh, the greatest success of Barstool and blah, blah, blah. It's like it's moments like that that were so incredible. And I do I agree with you entirely on the regulating emotion. If you can be calm and consistent, I think it is a great I think it's a great critical skill to enable other people to be their best. Amen. And that was like all I ever wanted to be. So and I've also heard you say from the minute I started the interview process, I was working for Barstool. Definitely. So three months before you were on the payroll, right? Yeah.

All in. And you were a board member and an advisor for Food 52 since 2019, which is where you currently are the CEO of. So long before you took the job, I was blown away by that. Because I think in addition to being able to be steadfast and regulated in a system, your loyalty and commitment to be all in, which seems, I mean, I noticed that the questions that you navigate from, you know, the people who send it in, like I, 75% of the people here are not committed. They're just getting a paycheck. They're getting, you know, there's something so unique about you. Two things I would say is really this capacity to stay regulated in times of distress that blows me

away. In the middle of a shit show, you pick the most dysregulated. I'm highly regulated. Right? Like, yes! That's the key. And the second key is really just sort of understanding that doing that for other people and being all in is something that people can smell from the parking lot. And it is such a rarity.

Would you say these days? Is this true? I don't know if it's a rarity. I think that what's hard right now is people are not generous. Ooh. I think being – I don't know what's happened in the world, and you would know better than I, but I think people are – it's so much about their emotion, their insecurity, what is going on with them that it makes it difficult for people to help others. Their needs, their wants, their desires kind of trump everything else. And I think that're in a world right now where young people are, for the most part, less resilient than ever because you're on your screen all the time.

You don't have to do anything. You don't struggle through anything. You don't have to be bored. You're just fed and it's kind of like WALL-E. Remember where they're like on the spaceship and nobody has any muscles anymore. And then I think the other thing that happened over COVID is everything happened over Zoom and it's hard to connect and give to other people over a video. So this is the truth about things. So I have often said this, you know, humanity is based on two rules.

Like whoever created it, however we got here, two things happened. Okay? So I don't care what you believe. Number one, we're neurobiologically wired for connection. You disconnect from infants, they die. The second rule was a curveball. Okay? They said, despite the fact that we're neurobiologically wired for connection, the hardest thing you will ever do is look at each other.

Okay? You're like and now everyone's heads in a pretzel yeah truly yeah right like i i was saying this yesterday on the today show that humble brag uh-huh um our great-grandparents looked at their children 72 percent more of the time than we look at our babies today and the only way you learn that you matter the only way you learn how to regulate emotion is somebody has to show you they cannot tell you so as much as we want to calm down you know the last time swiss says to you yeah relax erica you don't go like oh yeah you're like ratchet thank you do you want to make out yeah i'm gonna fucking punch your face off so i i'm interested who taught you this what

where did who grow up who was your mentor who showed you the. Who grew up? Who was your mentor? Who showed you the way? My parents were both teachers. Really? Yes. Like K-12 educators? Like a teacher? My mom was a vocational teacher, which taught me a lot. My mom is an incredible woman, and she's like you.

She wanted the kids that nobody else wanted. Like she wanted, she wanted the kids no one wanted, which really was, it was, you don't realize it in the time that you're in it, but that was a big lesson for me. She was strong to take on the unwanted.

Yes. This, this was not a problem. The kids working in shop and my mom taught accounting. In shop. You know, everybody who's fucked up ends up in shop. You know?

100%. Graphic arts or shop. Like, I loved the graphic arts and shop kids. Yes. And then my dad was a math teacher. And then he moved. He became the principal. And it was also interesting where I liked all the shop kids and the graphic arts kids.

And they hated my dad. Because my dad was the authority at school my dad was tough and but they both were very very very kind and really really clear on what mattered and what didn't and you know we lived like a small little normal life in the you know middle of nowhere town but I think my parents were big influences in that way. Both are very calm. Both are very kind. My dad died this year.

But that was a big gift that he gave both to my brother and I, which is awesome. And then my mom is like a trooper and still going and is like feisty and funny. Shock and apple and tree is there a um and and and what was their take on your career path did they did they have much opinion care that's i think you know so i think the whole thing when people see the title of this book they're like oh what a negative title like nobody cares and i'm like it's actually such a gift like my parents could give a shit what i like i'm i think I'm the first person in my extended family to ever have a corporate job

or live in a city of more than like 10,000 people. Like I'm not kidding. Truly. And they didn't care. Like I think if I became a teacher, I think they would have cared if I did not get out of, I think they would have cared if I didn't try to achieve my potential.

Right. Driven was not your problem. Driven wasn't the problem. That was it. Bottom line. They just like reach, be a good person, reach your potential, go learn and do things. But I don't, they just really didn't care. Okay. Yep. And so would they be, okay, so then in terms of the question about who then regulated you, as you were navigating these things, like in addition to them, were there other people that sort of were your mentors? There were a lot of really incredible people, most of whom were highly unregulated, I would say. Fascinating. And I like unregulated people actually. Because you do well with them.

I like them. I think they're super fascinating. And they make it interesting. Like, I get bored very easily. And unregulated people are not boring. Turns out, yes. Keeping up is the game. So I worked for a woman named Joanne Bradford, who was a huge mentor for me.

I worked for a woman named Gail Troberman. She was also a mentor. I also had a lot of idiot bosses along the know, along the way, and people who probably thought I was an idiot. But I always tried to, I had a couple things. One was I knew I needed to make money. And, you know, my parents, I didn't have a setup. I was going to live off of what I made. So I knew I needed to make money. Two, I felt very responsible that my parents had taken out loans to send my brother and I to college and that I needed to, like, do something. Like, when all of my girlfriends were like, hey, I'm, like, fucking off work to go have four babies or whatever, which is an awesome choice. I have no issue with that choice.

I was like, I'm just not going to be able to make that choice. Yeah. And then the third was, I was really two more things. The third was I was always in successfully insecure. And successfully insecure is like, I was always afraid, like, what if I don't have a job? So I always was very eager to, like, I got to keep learning. I got to keep observing. Being relevant. Being relevant. Like, always honing skills.

Okay. And then the last was I just loved to watch everyone around me. Like, and I think right now that we're in this time where everyone's like, I need a mentor and, like, a formal mentor, blah, blah, blah. And I actually don't believe in that. I think you can just observe people. Like the way you hugged me when I came in here, I was like, shit, I love that. Like everyone should have such energy when they meet someone. And that's me watching you and being like, ooh, that's like a good note to self of something I should build. And so I always watched people.

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We're home to the biggest names in podcasting, We'll see you next time. speak to them with ACAST. Visit go.acast.com slash ads to get started today. So what I love about that, so just to back to your previous point, which I think is just so pointed, is that when we are busy worrying about all the things we're not, we miss our massive ability to influence in the moment, right? And so now, obviously, we have to reflect all the time. I'm not saying that that's not a good thing. But I love, you know, we're in New York as we tape this episode. And it was remarkable to me how beautiful people in New York are, how put together they seem to be, where we were yesterday anyway.

And the conversations that I had, even in the moment where you say, oh, my gosh, you look amazing today. Like the most wildly put together people who you know, like this didn't just fucking come together by chance. Somebody did. the things were happening okay and you say that and i i practiced this yesterday in my walk home because these fucking people that i work with make me walk miles it's so dumb i'm fit i'm almost 50 like let's fucking stop yeah anyways it's so fun to walk in new york isn't it yeah anyway so, so this was my whole plan yesterday was like, oh, my gosh, you look amazing. You look amazing.

And it is my favorite game to play. Oh, it's so fun. You got to mean it. Yep. It's got to be genuine. Yep. Right? And I ended up having this beautiful conversation.

I do this more easily with women than I do with men. But it is the most powerful. When I can feel good in my own body, I then, the capacity to give it away, this human at the light, his socks matched, there was a complete, and I was like, you, sir, this is something today. And you just watch what happens. People just beam up. You have access to the best parts of them and in you know to your point you know earlier about that's what you did when you stepped into barstool this is a group of really i'm sure many men that had never heard i think you're smart definitely i think you've got something here and when you collect one of the psychologists i love says you got to collect and

then you direct yep so you yeah i agree with that in. I mean, not only do you agree with it, I think this is your fucking mantra. Yeah. Right? Come on. Yep. And then I'm going to be able to... Yeah, then we're going to steer you.

Navigate. Yeah. Right? And also I think accepting people as they are. Like I can remember we had one meeting we went to go meet the head of Major League Baseball. Oh, stop. And I brought like the early Barstool guys, they were so tall.

I was so short compared to them. They were all so tall. There was this one guy, Coley, who I, like, really, really love as a person. And, you know, Coley was in a track suit, and he had, like, a dip in his mouth. But, like, you know, he's got tattoos everywhere. And I was like, yeah, we're going to, you know, and I liked that because I was like, yeah, we're, we're going to, you know, and it, it, I liked that because I was like, you know what, he walked in there and scared the shit out of them. And they were like, they don't, they're like combusting like the blue button down shirts

with the vests are like, does not compute does not compute. But it showed like, hey, we are who we are, and love us or don't love us or do a partnership with us or don't, which they didn't. But, you know, we were going to be who we were regardless. Oh, and then this idea then. So, okay. So if I move this into this space now, because of women breaking glass ceilings, being unapologetically yourself, what's your greatest piece of advice in this space for people who, you know, we'll talk about, I think this is first generation where our roles have been so unclear.

There's so much benefit to, to role clarity, right? That we love predictability. We love safety. We love security. We all as human beings, if I know what's going to happen,

we can regulate emotion so much easier. We have never been in such a dysregulated time, right? Our babies are accessing things that we have no idea what to do or to manage or to what is going on. People have so much access to us. Yep. It's noise.

And the roles have never been so clear. Be anything, but also where's your children? A hundred percent. A mom of two. Yep. Beautiful babies. How old are these babies today? Twelve and thirteen.

Stop. Yes. Aren't they fascinating? I have 11-year-old twins and a 14 year old. It's a fun, difficult age. The best time of my life. I've never been more in love with them. And they've never terrified me more. I have so much hope for humanity when I sit with these three humans who are remarkably different, all three of mine. I want to, what has that been like to balance? And maybe they're not expectations, but certainly in my world, it's like navigating the feedback between I know I want to be a New York Times bestseller.

I know I want to sit and have a global voice around mental health. That's so clear to me. And I love that some days more than I love my children. And I feel more comfortable in this space than I do raising my babies. Definitely. Saying that publicly has been. It's hard. Fascinating.

Yeah. Tell me the balance for you, because it also doesn't mean just in case the children are listening, that I love you any less. The greatest accomplishment of all time is you and I love you and all the things. It is also full permission. Yeah.

To be fully in to your role. Your thing. Your thing, which men have been allowed to do for many seasons. And again, it's not about, again, I always want to clarify that it's not about men versus women in this moment. It's like, I don't think the time has been more right for women to take a seat at the head of the table because what we need is emotional regulation more than anything. Right. Tell me how you're breaking glass ceilings, how you're balancing that. That's a, it's a great point. I completely agree with you. I am more comfortable in my, and I'm more confident in my capability in my work life than in my home life. I'm not a good cook. I forget the homework. Cooking with Erica has been fascinating to watch. Yeah, disaster. You know, I showed up at my daughter's field hockey game on Sunday and,

you know, it's 40 minutes away. We drive there. She forgets that I guard and, you know, it's like, oh, fuck me. Like, we're not driving back. I'm tired. How much do you need your eyes? Okay. Just don't put your eye by the bar. I didn't wear an eye guard when I played. You'll be fine. fuck me like we're not driving back i'm tired like how much do you need your eyes okay just don't put your eye guard when i played you'll be fine like but anyways you know so she whatever she scrambles and she finds an eye guard and you know i i walk on the field you know when the game starts and another mom is like you know turn you know sorry actually you know, turn, you know, sorry, actually, you know, your daughter forgot her eye guard in like a judgy, like you piece of shit, mom. I'm like, fuck off lady. Like, yeah, she did. But you know what? She figured out how to find the eye guarding. That's a lesson that that girl

is going to take with her forever. So I, I totally agree with that. I, um. I think you can learn a lot from kids and learn a lot from young people. And I've always really wanted to surround myself with people who are younger than me. I like people who are way older than me or way younger than me generally. I think there's something really unhealthy and unfulfilled about people our age. I think it's, I think it's like, it's like you lost the dream and you're caught in the grind. And then you're a little bit lost in terms of like, where do I go from here? Like, I feel that in, you know, women in their 40s, in particular 40s and 50s. I think in terms of balancing the two, I tend to think balance is kind of bullshit. It's really more about priorities and what matters and being great

in that thing that matters. Not every time and all the time, but when you choose to stick, stick, like make it stick. And that's a constant juggle. And I've, you know, I've struggled with that, but I'm always working on it. Yeah. And so this constant struggle that of, of navigating that, like what, what advice do you give to women who are like really in this place of like, how do I balance? Like, do you, okay, this is a better question. Scratch that. Do you think there will come a time where your kids are gonna be like, where the fuck were you? No.

I think that I was very deliberate in the, it takes a village. I was big into the takes a village. And that's, you that's your babysitters. We had a nanny, a tutor, a coach, a friend. It's funny. Last night I was home, and I have a babysitter that kind of helps do the Uber driving because I have this second shift where I just essentially drive a car for a living to shuttle between practices. It's a second job.

The woman was awesome. Yeah, exactly. Pays like shit. But the woman was helping my daughter with her homework, her math homework. And I was like, thank God, because I can hardly do seventh grade math. And two, like, how lucky is this girl to have this person sharing how to do something with her? So I don't think my kids will say, where were you?

I think they will say, wow, you worked hard. Nice. And I'm okay with that. Yes. I say this quite often. You can't tell anybody how to be great. You have to show them. And our kids, my kids, when I talked about today, guess who I get to meet?

Erica, remember we talked about this? Like, you you send us a picture? And I'm like, yep, I can. Right. And so when I watch my daughter watch me do these things, our sons, you know, I'm like, there's no greater lesson. Definitely. They have to see it. Everybody has to see it. Yes. And so like women, you know, men, if you're listening, like the importance of creating this sense of live the life you want them to live is so critically important. And you are now the CEO of Food 52, a recipe and cookware website founded by Amanda Hesser and Meryl Stubbs. So this was like a women owned business. You were familiar with this long before you left Barstool.

Sat on the board, all in, learning to cook with Eric. Okay, so what I love about it is this is nothing that you are. A hundred percent. Internally, right? You're like, the domestic shit is not for me. This is not my job. But I'm going to come in and- We're going to see what we can do with this.

We're going to, let's see. Tell me about it. What has it been like? Yeah, it's cool. You know, I wanted to, I'd spent almost a decade at Barstool Sports. I felt like I had done everything I could do there. And I didn't want to stay past my end date. I think there's a moment when you stay too long and that's an ugly moment.

I think that's an unattractive moment and I didn't want to have that moment. I liked Food 52 because it was female founded, which, you know, I had worked in arguably the most alpha male company on the planet. So I was like, I'm interested in seeing what I could do there. I liked that it was a female consumer. Towards the end of my time at Barstool, you know, I'm at like a tailgate at Ohio State. And I was like, what am I doing here? This is like, I'm the mom at like, I don't want to be this person. And they don't want to want to see me. So I wanted I was happy to be thinking about products that I could consume.

Okay. I am not gonna funnel 40, you know, Pink Whitney shots or high noons. Love marketing them. Loved the experience. But I do interior design and vessels and all that kind of stuff. So that's what was really interesting to me. It's been really interesting. It's very different than when I went to Barstool. When I went to Barstool, there was nothing and it was building from scratch, which at the time I thought was difficult.

Food 52 has been around since mid-2000s and there's a lot of broken scaffolding and taking scaffolding down and building new scaffolding is infinitely harder than starting from nothing. So this is the lesson that I'm going through in this job, which has been a really good lesson for me. Okay. And served you how? It served me how in that it's very easy when there is nothing to be decisive and definitive

about what to build next. And it's all positive and it's all possible. And it's the probability of doing it right is great. Yeah. When you're dealing with scaffolding, there's feelings around the scaffolding. There's ego around the scaffolding. It's so deep into the ground. There's history of the scaffolding that is way gnarlier and more sensitive. And, you know,

when you build anything, it's like this wire is connected to that thing. And, you know, it's complicated. So the untangling has required patience from me, which I am not especially patient. It has taught me. It is teaching me patience. And so do you think there'll be more? Do you think there'll be other companies you take on? I don't know. I hope so.

I don't know. I'm on the board of Axonon which is a publicly traded company um that i'm really passionate about and i would like to do more with yeah tell me about axon axon is is just a cool cool company they created the taser um which you'll remember from like don't tase me bro bro. It's still founder run. It is one of the fastest growing stocks in the US, technology stocks. It is a company that is completely consumed with a mission. And the mission is to end gun related deaths, to really to move from officers carrying guns to tasers, which are non-lethal weapons.

And it's really committed to reducing gun violence and police community gun violence. It's amazing. But what they've also done is they've built, you know, an incredible stack where it's the body cams and sensors and drone and AI technology of how can you save more lives through technology and how can you create better systems that connect law enforcement and the community. So wildly different from anything I've done. The people there are brilliant. But it's a very mission-driven company in a sector that is incredibly different from what I do in my day job. I like that juxtaposition.

I like things that I'm very interested in that I don't know but where I have a skill set that could be applicable. So I'm interested in that. I'm fascinated by that. So I've done a lot of work in the police psychology or the first responder psychology space, right? Because I think there's very little, it is so fascinating when you ask a group of people to serve the most typically marginalized and dysregulated humans, breeding ground for racism. And it is, how do we then navigate that? Because there's no system for them to fall into. So if we want to think about regulating others, right? If we want to think about leadership in that space, that is where I would love to have impact someday in my life because I think it's so simple to me when I look at it from the outside, right?

Like we can reduce gun violence all we want, which I think is amazing and necessary and long overdue. How are we holding the hearts of the people doing this critical work? You cannot defund the police, in my opinion, because there will always need to be somebody to walk the most dysregulated people home. A hundred percent. And so how do we hold the people doing that walking, not creating necessarily what they do in that process? There's no single program that is recognized for first responder spouses. There's no understanding of when you go through training, here's all of the technical training. Nothing about what we're going to do to remind you how amazing you are.

Not one time. And so it is so fascinating. I never thought about. It's so cool. It's, it's, it's hugely significant. Like one of the things I've been looking at is like suicide by cop. Like the whole notion of.

I'm going to just put myself in this position so I don't have to kill myself. I don't want to kill myself. I'm going to have a car and just the, the trauma that creates. And yes, there's bad cops out there and people can have odds. But like that is a real trend happening. I think the second trend with the pandemic, which is when everyone ran and they didn't want to deal with, you know, highly dysregulated people in highly dysfunctional situations. The people who are doing that are first responders. And there is no support. I totally see that. It's funny, since I joined the board of Axon,

I'm trying to spend some time right now thinking about how police recruiting can change and how you can bring, how do you elevate the position of law enforcement to be a bridge between community and law enforcement and safety. But then also, I say hi to every cop every day. Anytime I see a cop, I walk over to the officer and I'm like, hey, how are you? Just because that small kindness is like just a human thing. Changes everything. Thank you for your service in airports. It's my favorite thing to do. It's so satisfying. And it is. And it's remarkable because I know then that I'm in my own prefrontal cortex. I'm in my brain, but I'm also like to watch the response to that and how little that happens is the greatest investment of creating that space. And I think what is so lovely about this, you know, recruiting,

I think is so critical. There's three phases for me. The recruiting is important is important the current membership status and then what we do when you're retired so all of those things become really critical and i think in the recruitment phase we are playing by a set of rules that was established for a world that no longer exists so there's always this i'm going to beat you down motherfucker and so you're ready to deal with the worst yep there's no evidence to support that totally zero and so when we have asked many times about why we continue to do this or tell people they're pieces of shit for six months and expect they're going to serve

the most dysregulated, marginalized people, they're like, it's always been done this way. Yeah, 100%. This is how it's done. Ah! And I just think that there's so much. Yeah, 100%. So much work in that space.

And it aligns for me in Barstool in so many ways because there's a group of deeply thoughtful, caring, committed humans that have just been torn apart. And there's no infrastructure to put them back together. And so it's just the parallels. I've never thought about it like that. But the parallels between those two things. I'm so glad you are involved in that process. Yeah, I'm excited about it.

I really like it. I think the other thing, you know, which is also getting back to work style is at Barstool, I made a point every day to say hi to everyone I could. And I think that just goes so far. Like it's such a stupid thing. But I look at, you know, I look at where I work now and there's a lot of people there who don't say hi to other people. And I'm just like, why? It's free. We're humans.

They're sitting there. They see you sitting here. To the looking at each other, you both know you're in the room. Yeah, I know. Everybody knows there's two here. Oh, I got something very serious to look at on my phone right now. No, you fucking don't. My husband, too.

I mean, we walked into hockey dressing rooms, and he's on his phone. And I'm like, first of all, you're the coach. But secondly, what are we looking at? And it's the home screen. I'm like, you. Oh, my God. Say hello to these people. What are you doing?

Just say hello to people. Okay. Yeah. Like, how simple. Yeah. The complexity of all this really isn't that great is what I hear you say. What do people get wrong about you the most? Oh, God. What do people get wrong about me? I either think they think I'm super soft or a total bitch. And I don't think I'm either.

Yes, I'm in. I think it's either you're one end of the spectrum or the other. Right. And I think I'm a mix of both. Are you? Yeah. And what I want to know is, you know, it's so interesting, right? Be kind and don't tolerate bullshit in that order. Yeah.

That seems to be the mantra of you. And you have to be both. Always. Right? It's also, I am a big, I just want to accomplish something. And I think a mission and is really important. I write about this a lot in the book is like, you should just have a vision for yourself. It doesn't need to be grand. It you know, it's just something that puts your North Star for yourself a little bit further out than you are. And I think

one place that I'm misunderstood is I am like, I'm all for that. I am zero for the status quo. I will always have to build, change, make something. We call it at home the Zoomies. On Sunday mornings, I get the Zoomies and I I'm just like, I just gotta, I gotta make this place better. Yeah. And it's like that at work, too. But I think it's, I think it's good to, to, to put the work in. And I think it's good to want to get yourself to a place you're not right now. Even if you don't know where that is. Always. Yes. Oh, my gosh. Okay. what i mean this book is a guidebook yes that's how i read it right i was thinking about all the people who would consume your words your thoughts and it really is a play-by-play um guideline on how you created your success right which is really like you you start the first chapter by this is not for 56 people yeah if you're this you're not we're not we're not we're not but if're not. But if you are, all of these things, you want to fuck it up, you want to, yeah. And

you just invite so many people to the table. What is, what's the feedback been like? What is this process of writing been like? Yeah, the writing is the, you know, writing a book, I've never done it before. So, you know, I'm still learning it. It's weird Book publishing is just a weird little business, but I'm very proud of it. I'm very happy I wrote it. You know, I think the message of the book, when I went and looked at all the business books, it was like, hey, look at me. I'm perfect. I have this perfect career and perfect, perfect and do it like me. Or the other end of the spectrum was like, here's an atomic habit or here's two things you do every day and you're going to be great. the spectrum was like, here's an atomic habit, or here's two things you do every day, and you're going to be great. And I was like, like, I'm not perfect. And I don't have

the discipline to do two things every day. So this book is really, hey, it's about how do you get your head in, at least my experience on how do you get your head in the game to be great. And it doesn't matter if you work at Google, or you work in a gift shop, like I don't care. Nobody else cares either. But just be great at what you do. And here's how you get your head in the game. Here's how you navigate all the crap that comes with work because there's a lot of crap that comes with work. And then how do you know when it's time to make a change?

And that's the book. That is the whole book. Okay. So, again, nobody cares about your career, why failure is good. The great ones play hurt and other hard truths. I loved it. Marty and I listened to it as we drove through Michigan. And it was so many things that I think people need to just get grounded back into. Yeah, I think people, it's easy to blame everyone else for your problems, one. And two, it's really easy right now to have so much anxiety about everything you're not. I think the internet really has just made people feel inferior and lonely, to your point. And I really think that by working on something, even if it's just for you and it's silly and, you know, like I like

house plants, right? Like I love plants. I don't know why I just like plants. And I don't know that I'm particularly good at having plants, but it gives me something to work on every week where I see progress. And I'm like, you know what? It like makes me happy. And like everybody should have that in their life. I love that. Something that brings you joy. And I think, you know, as we wrap it up, I mean, it's this idea of the thing that I learned the most from you today is really about this idea of being unlonely, how we sort of, it really is how do we focus here first? How do we regulate it? How do you know, do that work to be unapologetically you because then it opens up so much capacity to just be there for everybody else. Yeah, definitely. I think it's

hard to be something for someone else if where you are yourself is so noisy in your head. And I always felt, and maybe this is like a New England thing, it's probably definitely a Canadian thing. It's like if you just worked a little harder, you would work through your stuff. Oh, the hustle, yeah. But I do think that's like a good, like, hey, put yourself on a mission to become a better version of yourself. And you're going to screw up and it's going to have pitfalls. You're going to end up in a dark corner somewhere and be like, ah, how did I get here? But you can work your way through that. And that process of working your way through it, if you can say hi to people and give something to someone else and be consistent and calm,

like it will work out. Yes, consistent, calm, this idea of just really giving it away as much as you possibly can. Yeah, give it away. Give it away. Give it away. Give it away.

God, I love that. Okay, two things before we go just real quick. Number one, when I look at all your accolades, when I look at all of the things you've accomplished, survived, navigated, do you ever get the moments of clarity about like, do you know how great you are? Oh, probably not. But like, I'm not interested in that, though. I love that. Like, I'm great, I guess, and terrible and an idiot and awesome and flawed. When you look at this accomplishment, I mean, not even 50, what you have done, I mean, two

teachers who raised you, right? We came from this place of we didn't know a lot about anything. You're wildly financially successful. You have an eye for business. You are making marks. You were inspiring women like me, like everybody that I know. Is there a time where you just get to drop your shoulders and be like, okay? No, I'm not like that.

Yeah. Which is probably unhealthy. But no, I think like it's. I don't know. But yeah. No, I don't think you can buy your own hype. And I don't think you can get caught up in – I hate when people manage up. And I hate when people rest on their laurels.

And I really hate when people think they're great. It's like be great to each other. And that is to me like – that to me is all that really matters. Be great to each other. Just be great to each other. I love that. that to me is all that really matters. Be great to each other. Just be great to each other. I love that. And I think inherent in that is understanding,

even in your quiet moments, that you know exactly what this is about, right? Yeah, 100%. Right, and I love that. I love that. All right, so what's next? What's next for you? Oh, I'm going to go back to work. Yeah.

This book is a major focus. Yep. It's now out into the world. Yep. Now sinking into, you know, all of the things that you serve, the boards that you serve on, and this company. That's where we're landing. You have a lot going on.

So, like, I'm busy. I'm going to take a nap this weekend. Like, that's what's ahead. I'm on this mission to normalize naps. So I really love that. I'm a big napper. It's a big thing. It's great.

Naps are good. The thing where we don't rest, I think, if you want to continue to serve at the levels that we do, you have to rest. It's not about hustling. It's really about learning the opposite of that. Definitely. Oh, Erica, you're a goddamn gem. This was everything I hoped and more. Thank you for your time. Thank you for having me. You're amazing. I'm going to put everything in the show notes, but nobody cares about your career. I want, if you, so many business women listen to this and so many people who really aspire to be fantastic. This is your girl.

Follow everything, do everything. She's written the guidebook for it. And I'm just, I'm just so grateful. Thank you. I'm grateful. In the meantime, everybody take care of yourself, take care of each other. And I will meet you right back here next time. Unlonely Podcast is produced by three incredible humans,

Brian Seaver, Taylor McGillivray, and Jeremy Saunders, all of Snack Lab Productions. Our executive producer, my favorite human on this planet, is Marty Piller. Soundtracks were created by Donovan Morgan, Unlonely branded artwork created by Elliot Cuss, our big PR shooters are Desvino and Barry Cohen. Our digital marketing manager is the amazing Shaina Hadden. Our 007 secret agent from the Talent Bureau is Jeff Lowness. And emotional support is provided by Asher Grant, Evan Grant, and Olivia Grant.

Go live! I am a registered clinical psychologist in Alberta, Canada. The content created and produced in this show is not intended as specific therapeutic advice. The intention of this podcast is to provide information, resources, education, and the one thing I think we all need the most, a safeAST to connect them with their audience. Your brand can speak to your perfect audience too by advertising with Acast. We're home to the biggest names in podcasting, reaching millions of engaged listeners who can only be accessed through Acast.

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