Unlonely with Dr. Jody Carrington - Rebuilding the Village: Love, Learning & Connection with Isabelle Hau

Episode Date: February 27, 2025

We tell kids to play nice, but are we giving them the space, support, and connection to actually do it? This week, Jody sits down with Isabelle Hau, Executive Director of the Stanford Accelerator for Learning, to explore how early relationships shape brain development, emotional resilience, and lifelong learning. From the loneliness epidemic among children to the unintended consequences of school security measures, Isabelle unpacks the critical need for connection in families, schools, and communities. She also shares insights from her upcoming book, Love to Learn, offering a hopeful roadmap for creating relationship-rich environments—because if the big people aren’t okay, the little ones don’t stand a chance. Whether you're a parent, educator, or simply invested in the future, this conversation is a wake-up call to rethink how we raise and support our kids.Isabelle's Links:https://www.isabellehau.com/https://twitter.com/Volcoucouhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/isabelle-hau-a57175/https://isabellehau.substack.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Welcome back and welcome in. Okay, so this interview, I know I just needed that for you, but I just want to remind you, there's so many things in this season of this podcast that has allowed us access to people that from a research perspective, from a clinical perspective are just absolute dreamies for me. And Isabel, how you're going to meet today is one of those people who I just am blown away with. And I think some of the things that are so critical and important about Isabel. She's a humanist investing for, you know, this impact towards an inclusive and equitable future of learning. You know, I have to talk a lot about if the big people aren't okay, the

little people don't stand a chance. And all of Isabella's work is so centered around how do we shift from this way of sort of hard line managing as we together learn and family systems to this much more integrated relationship connected piece. And I mean, Stanford, an executive director of the Stanford Accelerator for Learning and former head of US education at Omidyar. And I just think that, you know, one of the things that I think is so impressive about you is, you know, the being the executive director of the Stanford accelerator for learning is it's an interdisciplinary hub for researchers, educators, entrepreneurs and others to collaborate on learning solutions.

And we struggle so much with this up here in Canada. Like the ideas are so great and broad, but how do we bring it all together? Because everybody seems to be working in silos. We know what could be better and be better for kids and systems and they're broken and burnt out and people wanna throw punch each other. But what do we do about that?

And what I love about your work Isabelle is that you are saying, come to this center, let's start to talk about what we need to do bring some of the brightest minds together and figure out how we connect and you've put the hell in a book, which is duo February 11 2025 called love to learn and I just I got to tell you, I want to hear about it. I want to hear about everything wherever you want to start you take us there and I will follow because I am

in awe of your work. Welcome. Thank you, Dr. Carrington for having me on the podcast. I can't imagine a podcast that would be a better fit for this topic of love to learn. I know. You know, there is a lot of literature activity talks, discussions about loneliness and isolation for adults, but far less for our littlest ones. And that's really what this book is about and why I decided to write it because I was getting really concerned about what was happening during our global pandemic. And I was following at the time the work of an amazing pediatrician and neuroscientist at Columbia University who was tracking this cohort of moms and their babies, their newborns

at Presbyterian Hospital in New York City. And what was really interesting is that she observed a drop by half of the strong emotional connections between mom and baby during that time. But if I may say, Dr. Carrington, what was really maybe even more concerning to me in addition to this drop and the drop you could say, okay, maybe this was one point of time in New York City at the height of the pandemic. But what was really concerning for me was even before the pandemic, the level of emotional connection was actually very low. Only 40% of moms in New York City were expressing a strong emotional connection with their little

one. So we have essentially a relational crisis that starts in the early years at a time when we all know relationships matter the most in terms of brain development. Yeah, and tell me about that. Tell our listeners about that because I think there's the question all the time of, you know, is it really critical in those early years? What if you screw it up then? You know, so many of us reflect on our early time as moms going like, oh shit, I wasn't there.

I made them cry or I didn't, you know, I didn't, I wasn't, I was depressed, I was anxious. But the data's really clear, isn't it? That those early years in terms of neurodevelopment, cognitive development really are important to focus on. Can you tell me more about that? They are essential. They are also, we continue learning and we have a capacity to love and be loved throughout life.

Okay, so let me clear this up front. But for the early years, yes, absolutely essential period of life. So what happens is that we as humans are born what I call billionaires. We have billions of neurons in our brains. These neurons start connecting a little bit before birth, but really this process of synaptic connection between these different neurons happens post-birth. And that's a little bit different for us as humans relative to other animals.

Other animals may be able to walk right after birth or may be able to look for food right after birth. For us humans, we are a little bit different from other species simply because we are maybe more social than other species. And the social element is absolutely crucial in our ability to relate, in our ability to think independently, in our ability to have values that a lot of other animal species do not have.

So anyway, those interactions right after birth are critical, absolutely critical. This is actually the fastest period of synaptic connection in the very, very early years of life. Yeah. And we're looking at sort of one to two. Is that sort of the critical piece? Where is the most critical period of time, would you say? Where does that land?

Yeah, generally people say birth to five. But I would say more and more people are really focusing on zero to three. And then even more recently, there is some work by psychiatrist Bruce Perry that has shown that zero to two months is even more critical in terms of exposure to any trauma. Anyway, those are really interesting data points. I would say more broadly, the field agrees that early is critical.

Early is critical. Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I got a chance to sort of just look at some of the summaries around Love to Learn, your new book. And I think knowing what we know about, you know, whether it's Perry's stuff on zero to two is the most critical piece months or if we look at zero to five I think it's different probably for every baby but you're saying here's what we need to know and why this focus is so important now kids are growing up in smaller families with fewer siblings and in more single parent households you say they have fewer adult family friends and mentors they have less contact with grandparents and grand adults

They have less contact with grandparents and grandadults. And they spend 60% less time with friends than children did a decade ago. They're playing outside less. They find themselves doing more on screens in this solitary place. I mean, I know we talk a lot around here about Jonathan Haight's work, you know, The Anxious Generation.

And I just found such a parallel, you know, with your work really talking about how critical. These are the numbers, right? We're playing by a set of rules that was established and I just found such a parallel, you know, with your work really talking about how critical, these are the numbers, right? We're playing by a set of rules that was established for a world that no longer exists. Kids these days are still so potentially beautiful and bright and want to learn, but our access to them has become so limited and their access to big people has shifted remarkably in this last decade. Is that? Tell me more about that. Yeah, I would say both big people as well as little people too.

For example, 20% of our children say that we have no friends. One in five. Um, and you, you, you pointed out to play, which is a really critical, And you pointed out to play, which is a really critical element of all of us forming and developing relationships and developing our characters by playing and learning about the world at large. Play is decreasing meaningfully across all our children. For example, a child today plays outdoors half of the time that they're parents. And plays highly correlated with a number of friends

that a child may have, as you would expect. Nothing that you would have, but research is showing that clearly. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, but big people too. So as children, our young children today are growing up in smaller families, as we know, they are less children per household in the US and globally the same trends. We are the lowest level ever of fertility in Italy, in Korea, in many parts of this planet. So families are smaller, you're growing up with less siblings. Parents are more and more isolated for a variety of reasons.

And so they have less adults around them. So kids do not see as many adults as a result. Our communities are less connected than they used to be. For example, religion, which used to be places of faith, used to be a great place where people were connecting. And as we know, religion is declining, or the practice of religions declining throughout the world, and certainly in the US. And so how is that related then to the neurodevelopment of kids?

You know, if we say this is how the family system structure is changing, this is how our access to big people are changing, what are we going to see in an impact from a neurodevelopmental perspective? Yeah, we know a lot about this. We know a lot from pretty sad experiments, may I say. But let me speak about two that are really interesting. One is called the Romanian Orphanages. So the Romanian Orphanages were a very sad moment in our collective global history where communist leader Nicholas Ceaușescu had this

big vision for Romania when he took power in the 1960s and said, okay, I'm going to bring economic growth in the country by increasing population. So he took a lot of pro-natalist decisions and population started to increase, but sadly the economic growth didn't ensue its plans. So what happened is a lot of families found themselves with a lot more children to feed, but not the means to do so. So a lot of children were abandoned in those Romanian orphanages. And we estimate that it's hundreds of thousands of young children that were left behind in those institutions. So parents just couldn't handle? Couldn't handle. So they would just deliver their babies at the fun steps of these orphanages and just run. Exactly. It's a very sad situation, obviously. So the best community regime fell apart at

the end of the 1980s, and then that led to a lot of different research because after the regime fell apart, some of those children were adopted, some in Canada. Yes, I've worked with them. Yes, you probably did. Some in the UK, some in the US. And so research started on looking at those two groups of children, those who were adopted and those who were left behind in those orphanages because not every child could be adopted. And then researchers looked at the brains of those children and compared the brains

of those children who were adopted relative to those who were staying behind in those orphanages. And here is what they found is a little bit higher than 10% smaller growth size in the brain for those children who were essentially having very, very few meaningful, nurturing, safe relationships in those orphanages. They also found that the brains were firing far less, so the brain activity was noticeably lower in the brains of those children that were left in the orphanages. were left in the orphanages. What is really interesting, I find, is that the longer a child stayed in those orphanages before being adopted, the lower their brain was, the smaller their brain was. So there seems to be a really clear connection between human connections, the love that a child may receive, and the

brain development. Yeah. Yeah, it's undeniable, isn't it? Yeah. Yes. Okay. So you said there was two orphanages? Yeah. Yeah, brilliant. The other situation is in China, so very different setting, where one of my colleagues at Stetford, Scott Rozell, studied children who are left behind in their villages when many parents in China over the past few decades had to go to urban centers to find work. And often in those urban centers,

those adults are being provided with some lodging, but generally not enough for a family setting. So what happens is that very often they are leaving their little ones behind in the villages. Often with a grandparent or another adult, but grandparent or adult may not have the means or the ability to take care of that young child. Anyway, so what Scott Rossell has shown is that 85% of those children who are left in those rural areas behind by their parents have either cognitive development

delays or social emotional delays. Let's talk Audible. This new year, why not let Audible expand your life by listening, audiobooks, podcasts, and exclusive Audible originals that will inspire and motivate you. Just open the app and tap into your well-being with advice and insight from leading influencers, experts and professionals. Whatever your focus or interests, there's a list for it on Audible. You'll find titles on better health including personal fitness, nutrition and relaxation.

Here are ways to improve your relationships both in your work and personal life or how to embark on a new career strategy. If you want to overhaul your financial life or hear small talk about investing for your future you'll find that too. Ultimately it's all about starting good habits. Making a positive change is the best resolution you can make for yourself. And Audible Canal, there's so much opportunity and more to imagine when you listen, let Audible help you reach your goals you set for yourself. Start listening today when you sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.ca. It's just, you know, and I, I would add, as you were speaking to that, I was thinking

about, you know, the intergenerational trauma that is really a part of our country. You know, when we look at the residential school system of indigenous peoples, there was an attempt at a cultural genocide, which was to take the children of many indigenous peoples and put them in residential schools in an effort to sort of make them white, um, to redefine the way that they operated. And they were treated so poorly. And the the effects, the introduction generational effects of trauma are seen so widely just in the ability to

function in systems, you know, the trauma passes from generation to generation. And so I think it's so fascinating that, you know, yes, the children experience those things, their capacity then to give it away to the next generation, as parents, then is significantly compromised as well. And so I those two examples are just I mean, amazing to me. And I, I think, you know, I think some of your work to when you talk about looking at family systems now,

you know, 50% of working parents struggle with childcare, even though we're living in smaller, you know, families, we've got maybe less babies to worry about, though we're living in smaller, you know, families, we've got maybe less babies to worry about, but we're still like, okay, and we know all this data. We know this so clearly that if we are looking after kids, if we are funding teachers and parents, then our kids are going to be better. But we say, Oh, my gosh, we look at organizations, and we're like 50%, one in two of working

parents is like, I don't know if I can manage this. Right? What is that like for kids to come home to those parents? The other concerning stat that many of us know well, but or have internalized, but I think needs to be repeated over and over again, is parents are the most, young parents, new parents, are the most isolated and lonely out of any groups, actually much more than older people.

Typically we think, oh, older people are lonely. No, in fact, one of the loneliest group of individuals is new moms and new dads. So it's a period of life where we have very few supports and the forms of supports that we used to have traditionally, whether it was a grandparents or a village around us has meaningfully shrunk or disappeared in our modern lives. So we are not, I think we are still in this transition as a human species to, okay, what is this new village

and what is a modern village around our parents and little ones that we need to rebuild. And what are you seeing in that way? Because I know that's the focus of the work at Stanford, right? How do we, how do we start to rebuild this? Because I'm interested in two veins there, for sure, in the family systems world and then in the school world. So let's start in the family systems world. You know, we, I love your work around even looking at a strong business case to be made for supporting employees and childcare. You know, I you just wrote in a recent article, like doing so can lower absenteeism by 30% reduced turnover by 60%

increase recruitment and boost employee productivity. That was the early care and learning council, I think you were quoting there, but it's it's like, this is so clear to me, right? Like, if we are, how do we restructure the family system and the care for our children in single parent households in, you know, when income is an issue, how, what are you seeing, you know, with the work that you're doing? Yeah, so lots of things on care and child care in particular across the globe, but I would say in the US, we have meaningful needs because we don't have an established system of care very different from the country where I was born in France, which has a much better, much more established care and preschool system

that's available for all families. Can I just tell you that? I came back from France yesterday, so this is going to air a long time ago. I was just in France for a week with my husband and I was amazed at the care that is thought about. I mean, a two hour lunch is asinine to us in Canada or to the US, right? That is standard practice in the country of France. When I look at maternity leave, even in the United States, I mean, now, with all of our babies, I had a year, right?

Because I was working in the system, whatever. It is asinine to me that we are expecting mothers to go back to work. I mean, I know this is a very privileged thing to say, but going back to work when your babies are six months old or six weeks old or six days old, how are we expected to be able to promote the safety and security of our children when we're like,

nope, this is what we gotta do to be able to keep you alive. Like, what do you notice there in between your work across many countries and just how far behind we are in this very clear, clear set of research? Yeah, so ideally we would have at least two or two and a half things in practice for our parents and young families. One is parental leave, as you are very nicely outlining. In the US, this is not it, but this is often not a paid leave. And this is really making the US an exception. So in concrete terms, it's exactly what you're describing. Moms after birth have essentially the choice of either leaving their work or going back to work after just

a few days or taking some of their vacation time or sick time. Anyway, it's not an ideal situation to say the least and certainly not one that is in tune with everything that the science is telling us about the need of serve and return, the need for nurturing relationships between an adult and a child, which is what sets that child for lifelong learning and flourishing. So parental leave is one. I would say ideally a quality care infrastructure that is affordable for all families would be ideal. Right now in the US, our infrastructure of care in terms of its quality and systemity to be only 10% of existing care is high quality. What? So we have a lot of work to do. Yes.

Yes, a lot of work to do. And then in terms of affordability, a lot of those options, so not only are not always quality are also, for many of them,ffordable or stretching families in ways that are really complicated in terms of trade-offs between work and care and other things that families may want to do such as going back to school to get some training for upward mobility. Anyway, very complicated choices.

Oh my gosh. And I just think about this even from a personal perspective. You know, I, you know, I wanted to go back to work. I loved my job. I, I wanted to serve other kids and families, but I had this baby who I loved more than life and I remember the first day that I had to leave him in care. And the woman who cared for him for his for that year, I mean, I think I went back after seven or eight

months. And he was so I had this beautiful time with him, which was, you know, I remember and was the best sort of part. But I left him in the care of this woman named Latifa. And I remember how hard I looked to sort of learn about her and her family system. And I still to this day, I mean, our son's 14 years old and he, she cared for him for a year. But I was so at peace with leaving my son because she was so excited to see him every day as she was the other, you know, six children that she had in her care. And they had fun. And at the end of the day, you know, he was sort of like, no, I'm not ready to go. And it broke my heart, but it was the best thing that had ever happened because she was in love with this kid as much as I was.

And it made my ability to then come and serve other people at the Children's Hospital completely viable. I loved my work. I loved my employer. I had the capacity to then have my my most precious commodity cared for. And I think never ever underestimating that. I mean, again, the research is impeccably clear on this. I don't know why we're fighting this. So what more do you want from us? Because and I and we're noticing I mean, I think in a recent article, maybe a Forbes article you

wrote, you know, you were talking about how, you know, even last July, Elon Musk shared his plan to significantly increase childcare benefits at his companies, unveiling things like Tesla already offers generous family benefits, including five days of backup childcare, 16 weeks of paid family leave, $40,000 coverage for fertility services. Some of these very innovative and creative companies, Google for Amazon for a very long period of time have been on the forefront of we see the data. We want good people in our place. And so we know that if we look after our people, right? I'm in, I mean, I'll walk through walls for you, right?

How come we're so, how come this is taking such a long time and shifting when the data is so clear? Yes, so on the employer side, employers obviously are one of the critical partners on care at many levels because business in a community are essential providers of many services and community are essential providers of many services and work, of course. So businesses are a critical component by an equation. What I worry sometimes about focusing too much on businesses is that with economic cycles, some of those benefits can be taken away. And so I worry a little bit about over reliance on these innovative businesses to offer care and what happens in a down cycle.

Thus, I think we also need, in addition to businesses at the table. We also need public entities, government, and others to support our families. And then a lot of a lot of nonprofit and community based organization to also support and continue doing their great work. Yeah. And I mean, if we can switch into those public entities, I mean, you've written extensively about schools. And part of your work, I just dove into this last week was around school shootings. And just sort of this understanding that violence is increasing in schools.

And your take is really that, like, listen, school shooters are not surprises. These are the kids that we know, although there's not one singular profile, there's a lot of indicators that would say there's emotional dysregulation at the heart of all of this and a lack of community support, a lack of familial system, systemic support and exhausted educators. So tell me more about that. Yeah. Sorry, sorry, Johnny. That's okay. I was actually going to speak about a very famous shooter

who, this is an older case, but that led to a lot of really interesting that I speak about in Love to Learn, that led to a lot of interesting analysis because that particular man had absolutely zero background of violence, was quite successful academically. So no signs that would have suggested that he would become a shooter. Anyway, the very sad incident led to a lot of analysis, and the analysis actually concluded on something that's quite interesting, that he may not have enough play. So very much tied to your point about emotional dysregulation,

the conclusion was this young child when he was growing up had a father who was extremely severe and gave the young child very limited opportunities to play. So interestingly, the psychiatrist who analyzed that case many years later made that connection between the lack of play and the very sad incident that led this man to commit this odious crime. You know, and I think some of the data, you know, when we talk about, you know, you were writing about it, I think in Valdi, I think that was the, or you Valdi,

when I was reading about your work there, after that school shooting, it was like, I had not thought about the data around school security. So our response historically has been, when things get bad, let's make sure we start to put the hard things in place. Let's get more cops, let's get more guns. And the school security industry has grown into a three billion dollar market. Okay so this is what we do historically is right if people are being bad let's we got a crackdown we got to do the hard

things. And I think like this blows me away Is, you were like 80% of schools use security cameras up from just 20% in the year 2000. Moreover, police are present in 48% of schools across the US and up from a mere 1% in 1975. We didn't have police in schools, right? When I was growing up and now it's like, listen, this is not the exception. And I looked at the Canadian data just briefly. So Alberta security infrastructure program can grant eligible schools to cover the cost of security assessments, physical patrolling, security enhancements, Ontario school safety grants can help eligible school boards purchase and install security equipment, light cameras, lighting, vape detectors, all of this place of like,

let's catch them. Huh? And you know, you even said school hardening proposals was the response after many things like Columbine, like Uvalde, which is protecting school entrances and windows, adding metal detectors, armed security on school premises, and even equipping teachers with guns. You then say, listen, let's think about this for a second. Your solution is to soften schools. And that word softening is just so like, people are like, oh yeah, I suppose let's soften shit up. But to focus on building social emotional skills

of students and educators and strengthen relationships between students and educators, huh? And I, can you tell me about that? I mean, you refer to University of Virginia, Virginia's coalition of violence prevention plan. Like I didn't even know that existed until I looked at your work. And I was like, there it is. It's all the here's the plan. Like, of course, we got to ban assault style weapons, we got to really think about how we're giving access all of those things are clear. But fundamentally, that second level need what adequate staffing, are we looking after these

teachers? Are we talking reforming school discipline practices to reduce exclusionary? Let's kick them all out when they're being making bad choices. And I just love, you know, your conclusion to this. And I'd love you to dive into this teaching kids social emotional competencies, promoting schools as relationship centers, environments, and eliminating exclusionary disciplinary measures. Those are your three summaries that I was just like, as I read that Isabella, I was like, can who, where, let's talk, who do we, let's talk to somebody about this. What do this is the answer? This is it right here. This is the summary. Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, those situations obviously are complicated, to say

the least. And some of the choices of school leaders or parent communities, you know, everyone is trying to find the best solutions, I believe. My view is one where we really need to think about some of those solutions that are preventive, such as ensuring that social emotional learning is being taught to children, or that our schools are being thought as what I called in the book relational hubs. So for example, there are some interventions that have been proven absolutely beautiful

and compelling and effective in reducing violence in schools, such as involving community members, not as police, but rather as humanizers of school environments. And I love those measures that are alternatives to increasing security. But I know that for schools and for parents, it can be obviously very difficult choices to make. So I'm not minimizing the complexity of those situations either. Well, and to your point, I mean, from a political perspective, that's where it gets tricky, right? Like we're like, okay, yes, I understand that this becomes a significant

argument around safety and around prevention and around, you know, how are we keeping people safe when they have access to things? I think that, you know, all of those things are not going away and we will have to address them. I wonder so much though, and I love this about your work is that like, instead of pulling people out of the river at the bottom, why are they falling in?

And that's somebody's very famous quote, but why are they falling in at the top, right? And at the top, if we see these lonely, disconnected kids that have very little access to adults to show them how to regulate emotion. We're putting them in institutions where we are expecting them to follow rules, further decreasing this lack of connection and safety.

Then it makes sense to me that we would then see kids that are becoming more and more dysregulated, harder to teach, harder to love, harder to stay connected to. The adults are tired, the kids are tired. And suddenly we have a lot of unrest. It makes sense to me. Can you tell me more? Yeah, no, absolutely.

You're describing it so well. Increasing mental health concerns and issues in our youth. Teen loneliness has doubled in the past decade. Anyway, just some really concerning trends that have accelerated with the isolation from the global pandemic, but pre-existed, pre-existed, you know, the COVID-19 pandemic. So, those mental health concerns are rising. And so, if, and all the police has analyzed actually

across multiple of those school shootings what is leading people to commit those crimes. And often on the top of the list, there is a mental health issue. So how do we address mental health? And mental health is connected to loneliness. So how can we increase, not only to loneliness, but loneliness can be a factor. So how can we increase social connections

and love in our societies to prevent mental health to continue rising? And so in the book, you know, Love to Learn, what are some of the things you're proposing? You know, if you had the way with the world, I mean, and you're so, it seems obvious this is not like one, you know, one solution. Yes. Yeah. Although I call this love the silver bullet, maybe. But love is, you know, needs to occur

across multiple settings. So it starts with families. Okay. So it starts with families, where families need to be more connected, need to be paying attention to relationships with their children, particularly interested in the role of technology with parents. All of us are interrupted on our devices 144 times a day. We check our devices 145 times a day. So this- Stop that right now.

144 times a day we're checking your device. Yes. So what it means concretely is that if you're a parent, you might be interrupted in your beautiful connection with your child many times. So you have to be paying close attention to those interruptions because those interruptions can signal to a young child that the device is more important than they are. It also acts as a model for the child to think, okay, well, having a device is actually really important.

So I want a device too, and I want to spend time on my device as well. Anyway, there are lots of concerning effects of what is being called technoference, these interferences that are led by technology in parenting, in parents. So that's the first circle. The second circle is schools. And we spoke about this already, but I would love to see schools become what I believe all educators want them to be, which is relational hubs. So places where relationships and teachers can really focus

on what they love to do, which is relationships with little ones and fostering those relationships. For many teachers, it's tough because they are focused on the next test and focused on administrative tasks and too little time. They have maybe too many kids that they have to take care of. So anyway, I think that we focus on thinking about schools and centering everything in our schools on relationships is a second piece. Yes. Amen. second piece. Yes. Amen. A third piece is play for little ones and ensuring that our little ones are able to play. And that play can happen in schools. For example, recess is going away. It's been receding over the past few years. How can we make sure that recess is understood as one of the most important

time in a child development? But same thing at home, how can we ensure that we are not over-scheduling our kids and running them from one activity to another and rather letting them activity to another and rather letting them, you know, free play with others and making friendships as a result. And then the last circle, so family, schools, friends, little friends, and the fourth circle is communities. So how can we make sure that our communities at large become what I refer to as care full of care. So how can we imagine for example community centers welcoming parents and grandparents to come and play or bus stops with activities for little ones when a family may be waiting for their bus to come.

You know, these little things that may really be conducive to increasing relationships. Oh, I love that. And it's such a comprehensive approach. And I and I know in in your book, there is such a clear roadmap, if you will, on on how some of these things can get started, right. And I think sometimes we feel overwhelmed by the fact like, oh, my gosh, how can we change families and schools and, you know, friendship, interactions and community. It's so interesting to me because I

think that you know your work is really about okay here's where you start right do not underestimate your capacity to just put your phone down in the run of a day. I mean I can't tell you how many times my children, our twins are 11 and Olivia our daughter is now said to me I'll wait till you're done. So I'm checking my phone I'm trying to understand where I need to be next and she's trying to tell me something and I say I'm listening she said no you're done. So I'm checking my phone. I'm trying to understand where I need to be next. And she's trying to tell me something. And I say, I'm listening. She said, No, you're not. When you when you're done. I will. I'm like, you, hey, and I'm so fascinated in this trend, you know, by the youngest generation of saying, you know, we actually want dumb phones, we don't want smartphones

anymore. Yes, I want to take my data off. I want a Nokia flip phone. I want to go back. And I'm like, I mean, I hope I live long enough to see that pendulum swing of this, let's go to cafes where your phones are not allowed in. I mean, I'm the biggest proponent of no phones in schools, no phones on school properties, right? Because even the data is so clear,

you leave it in your backpack. I cannot cannot my pre frontal cortex is not good enough to just not wonder if who's on the Snapchat, you know, and I say this to poor teachers all the time, you, you are competing with a whole global access in their pocket, you trying to teach the algorithm to some math thing is not as sexy as what is happening in Yellowstone the next season. I don't that's kind of

aged me there a bit but you know what I mean you maybe on the snapchat or maybe the new filter maybe that's cooler Marty's laughing at me but you know I mean this how old I am but I'm so fascinated on that. Like, maybe if I can get a new filter, I'd rather do that. Yeah, I call it, I call it the junk tech walls. Because I think we have far too much junk tech in our, in our, in our lives. And junk tech is a little bit like junk food, you know, you can, You can eat a bag of chips and that's fine if you eat one with moderation. So having a little bit of junk tech is fine, but if you have too much of junk tech, then that's where it leads to some form of addictive behaviors and some bad impact, really negative impact, especially for the

youngest children again. We are now, for example, some increasing ties between heavy use of devices and autism for the youngest, youngest children. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So, you know, a lot of concerning things for all of us about drunk tech. Now I make the difference between drunk tech and what I call relational tech because there are some technologies that can enhance our ability to connect.

Okay. So, for example, my colleague, Dr. Phil Fisher at Stanford University is working on a video coaching tool called FIND that analyses the interactions between a child and an adult and gives feedback to that adult on when are the special, really beautiful moments of interaction between that child and the adult. So that's a use of technology, clearly, but one that actually is meant to enhance human connections. So a beautiful example. Oh, such a beautiful example. I mean, again, I think that's that's so true, you know, Isabelle, about your work too, that I'm absolutely adoring is that that you know, this isn't all doom and gloom. There's not all bad stuff here. There's so much I just lost the camera

signal signal. Is that okay? There's so much sort of gloom in this process about like, the kids are dying, all the things are happening. But I think there's so much, you know, as well that you speak about. And I'm so excited to read it. I know the book comes out February 11, 2025. I see that the pre orders are up on Amazon. I'm super excited for you for your work. Where can people find you?

So people can find me, I have on my website isisabelhow.com. Or on my newsletter, I have a weekly newsletter called Small Talks, where I write every week on the topic of my choosing. And so most to have a news and obviously the book will be coming out in February and just looking forward to that too. Oh, I am too. I'm going to put all of that in the show notes. I'm also going to link, you know, that thing we talked about in Virginia, the idea of sort of like, how do we change schools? How do we do these things? And so everything you can find even, you know, of course, Isabelle's work at Stanford is

all easily accessible on their website as well. I'll make sure I link all of that stuff in here. Isabelle, it was an honor. Thank you so much for your work for your insights, what you're doing globally. I'm just I'm a huge fan. I cannot wait to see what this book does. Thank you, Dr. Carrington, for having me. Such a pleasure to speak with you and a really honor to be part of Unrolly. Let's talk audible. This new year, why not let Audible expand your life by listening, audiobooks, podcasts, and exclusive Audible originals that'll inspire and motivate you. Just open the app and tap into your well-being with advice and insight from leading influencers, experts, and professionals.

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