Unlonely with Dr. Jody Carrington - Replacing the Silence with Story: Grief, Motherhood & the Power of Saying It Out Loud - Jessica Zucker

Episode Date: May 22, 2025

Miscarriage. Grief. Shame. The things we don’t talk about—and why that silence is costing us everything.Dr. Jessica Zucker joins me for one of the most honest, soul-shaking conversations I’ve had. We talk about what happens when you lose a baby, what it means to feel seen in your pain, and why naming the hard things might just save your life.This episode is about the grief we carry quietly, the stories we’re afraid to say out loud, and the radical healing that begins when we say them anyway.If you’ve ever felt like you’re the only one, this one’s for you. 💛Let’s normalize it, together.Check out Jessice here:Instagram @ihadamiscarriageWebsite drjessicazucker.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Hi everybody, I'm Tom Tremuth of the Talk Music Podcast. I'm a multi-platinum producer and on this show I chat with fascinating musicians and top industry experts from around the globe. Steve Hackett, Bruce Coburn, Blue Rodeo, Rick Emmett from Triumph, Bare-Naked Ladies, Big Sugar, Lee Aaron. These are just a few of my guests with great music and great stories. Singer-songwriter extraordinaire Gavin Rosdale from Bush will be on next week, so don't miss it. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com At the beginning of every episode, there will always be time for an acknowledgement.

You know, the more we do this, people ask, why do you have to do the acknowledgement and every episode? I gotta tell you, I've never been more grateful for being able to raise my babies on the land where so much sacrifice was made. And I think what's really critical in this process is that the ask is just that we don't forget. So the importance of saying these words at the beginning of every episode will always be of utmost importance to me and this team. So everything that we created here today for you happened on Treaty 7 land, which is now known as the center part of the province of Alberta. It is home of the Blackfoot Confederacy, which is made up of the Siksika, the Kainai, the Pikini, the Tatina First Nation, the Stony Nakoda First Nation, and the Métis

Nation Region 3. Our job, our job as humans, is to simply acknowledge each other. That's how we do better, be better, and I will not from LA. You're still there right now. I what I love so much about your work Jessica is that in this time where nobody's talking about stuff you you are talking about changing the silence into stories and I think this is my favorite thing about your work. I want to hear all about it how it started because your history is so beautiful. Can you can you take take this community on that journey because I want to know it all. I want to and I will and I just love your energy

and I'm so grateful to be here with you today. So thank you so much for having me. Yeah. All right, where to begin? So I'm a psychologist. I specialize in women's reproductive and maternal mental health and I've done so for about 15 years at this point.

I came to the field with a background in public health and worked internationally in women's rights and women's maternal mental health. Or oops, let me do that again. No problem. Because I wasn't working in mental health while I was in Nigeria. No, okay.

I come to the field of clinical psychology with a background in public health and worked in women's rights and women's health for several years. And so my vision when I decided to pursue my PhD was to marry my interests and somehow bring them all into my office. At the time, however, I really focused on these issues because I myself am a woman, obviously, and wait, sorry, I don't wanna say obviously, cause I just realized like the PC stuff,

I can't keep track of like, if it's obvious that someone's a woman, so I shouldn't have said that. Got it, check, start again. Okay. So I came to these passions based on the fact that I'm a woman and believe that all of the issues that women face throughout their lives should be talked about, examined,

unearthed, and perhaps take up more space than they normally do. Right. I had kind of read all the books, gone to all the conferences, gone to consultation groups, all the things that I thought I needed to do to be armed with the skills and knowledge to sit across from patients as I specialized in what I do.

And at the time, I had not experienced anything firsthand that informed my work. I would sit and listen to the isolation, the feelings of alienation, the lack of community in the aftermath of pregnancy loss, infant loss, stillbirth, postpartum depression, for example. And I could empathize as far as I could. Yeah. Until I was 16 weeks into my second pregnancy and I had a miscarriage while I was home by myself. Coached by phone by my OBGYN,

I was instructed to cut the umbilical cord. My husband was darting through LA traffic to get to me. And I put the baby in a bag to bring to my doctor's office for testing. And I was just hemorrhaging the entire way. And to make matters all the more dramatic and physically and emotionally painful, I then underwent an unmedicated DNC. So I mean, I hadn't understood my patients as well as I could now.

In that moment. Wow. Yes. So invariably, this experience changed the course of my professional and personal life. And within a couple of weeks, months, and then a couple of years later, I launched the I Had a Miscarriage campaign with my first New York Times piece. And this eventually led to a book project. So I was writing feverishly for lots of different outlets on various aspects of life after loss, sex after loss,

marriage after loss, like every single facet I could think of because I was just outraged by the fact that this topic that is not a disease, it's not going anywhere, it happens in one in four pregnancies, is so hush-hush. And that my patients and the research both report feeling a sense of shame, feeling a sense of guilt and self blame and feeling isolated. Yeah. Yeah. What gives, right?

So, and one in four, I mean, I think this is something that we need to talk about. And I haven't talked about this on here either. I mean, we were 12 weeks with our second pregnancy and I lost that baby. And I remember thinking, you know, at the time it's, it's interesting. I was, my mom was visiting, we had a two year old and you know, just so excited, we're going to announce the pregnancy, all the things. And literally like, what do you do? I mean, there's a, there's a, there's a fetus now in the toilet. What do you do with that? And I'm like,

do we, I can't, I'm not going to do it. What do you mean? We have to hang on to it. What do we get? And like the conversations about, do you, do you provide that baby a name? Like, and then how, how do you, we had friends who had lost their baby in a stillbirth. And so who, who then gets the right, you know, as a mother, you get that right. If you're pregnant for three weeks or six weeks, where's the tipping point? Huh? That's a baby. Perfect way to put that. No, that's exactly right. I found myself in between place because if I had been four more weeks along, I would have been offered remains. I would have been offered

footprints and handprints and you know, maybe a lock of hair. And you're so right that there is like this delineation that who knows who made it up. Like at what week is it deemed important enough quote unquote for us to feel acknowledged and for our would be babies to be recognized and for the pain of it all, you know, to be talked about openly. I'm so sorry you went through that. Oh, thank you. I and again, you I mean that that story, what are you seeing these days? Because I think that, you know, obviously you're in it.

You've talked about this, you know, with that book for for many, many moments now. Do you still think it is such a silent experience? Because if I look at some of the data right now, the loneliness epidemic that, you know, we just, I said we were going to talk about these statistics, but what I love the most, what I read just recently, you know, is really Vivek Murthy, who is the former Surgeon General United States of America, really brought forward this idea of a loneliness epidemic and highlighted young moms and really said, listen, you know, despite the fact that we think that young moms have access to so much information now, like why,

why should they be lonely? What makes sense to me is I had one opinion. My mom had one opinion that was heaviest. You know who that was? The mother-in-law. And shit would come out like this, like, um, put booze in the bottle when they can't sleep. Give them. No! Yeah, but you know what I mean? But now, now as we breastfeed, we have 87 million opinions at our fingertips. Yes.

And if you didn't have a dolphin assisted pool birth with fucking lavender and a ball, right? You're shitty. So like, what the fuck? And so then of course I'm not talking about it My god, wait, were you stand up? No, but I Sisted not as great. No, you are so right the pressures on women and mothers these days is

Unprecedented and it's making us feel like we're failing at every turn. How can we do it all? And we can't say, right, I can't say this. I actually love my work more than I love my kids and I've said that publicly many times and I adore my children. I'm very happy. I mean, we have a 14 year old and 12 year old twins,

but I'm not a super fucking fan most of the time because I feel much more confident telling other people what to do than looking at my own shit. You have two sets of twins? No, Christ that would kill me. I have one who's 14. What? Yeah, one who's 14 and then I got pregnant with twins so we lost a baby and then I had pregnant with twins at 38 and um spontaneous uh fraternal twins. Wow. And Jesus, and they almost fucking killed me. Like I'm not going to die. And lie.

And then now they're 12 and they're still almost going to kill me. But fine. It's fine. Oh, this is so relieving and refreshing to actually be laughing when we're talking about hard things. Thank you for that. Yes. But I think, I think I love, I love that work.

And you know, I just watched you sort of blow up in this conversation around miscarriages because I think like we got to have the hard conversations about the things that we won't talk about. Right. Like, I mean, I mean, and tell me more about this. What have you noticed in the women who I'm sure and the men who come forward to you with their stories? It must, you know, I can't imagine what what you get your way. Yeah. I mean, well, you asked if if I think the conversation has changed and I do think it has. I think it's hard for me to speak objectively on that because I'm so in it and I'm so sort of like dead set on trying to conversation for good and

I will say, I mean, cele people, you know, who are their stories, uh, being and candid about their ex it's moved the needle and And hopefully the work that I've done, the work of so many other people in the loss community that I've connected with over the years who are also writing books

and doing amazing things, conferences. I do think this makes a difference. Do I think though that the cultural narrative altogether has changed to the point where I feel like I can sit back and rest? I don't think so. No, ma'am. No, because I think we're still hush hush. I still think that this 12 week rule is still in place.

Don't share your good news in case it becomes bad news because because then you actually have to share your bad news. And why do that? You can just wait to try again and tell them your good news. You know, and it's, I think we're robbing women of having support during the joy. And therefore, if it becomes something that we need support around, we're robbing them of that support as well. And yeah, I think that's a real problem. I think that's so important. That 12 month or 12 week mark is so arbitrary. And people would say all the time, like, just don't share. I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? Like the second I found out, we were like, let's rock and roll. And we were pumping the brakes,

you know, about like, oh, let's be careful, let's be careful. But I think you're so right, because the second you understand or even consider, you're trying to conceive, you're so tuned into your body, even if it's a surprise, if you find out that this is true, even if it's scary or you don't want it or all those things are happening, you are, we are neurologically wired for connection, neurobiologically wired for connection. And so we're even inadvertently thinking about then, what are the next, what do I look like as a mom or as somebody who provides our,

puts my baby up for adoption? What do I look like? Like whatever. Those thoughts are all there. And so I've just, I've never understood this argument of holding off in bringing in your people because you're gonna need them when and if anything happens. Good or bad.

Sideways. Exactly. And I mean, I understand a majority of miscarriages do happen in the first trimester. And so I think that's where, you know, the medical community is coming from. But it still doesn't make sense because if you have a miscarriage, you likely want support. And so not sharing your good news is not going to protect you from the pain of a loss should it occur. Right. Right.

I 100%. So beautiful. And out of that book, you know, your new book, Normalize It. I'm so excited to hear about that. Here, I'll show everybody. Look at that cover. I mean, the yellow, I think it's so bright and happy and inspiring. Yes.

Oh, nice work. And so tell me, you know, how have you evolved into this second book? Because no doubt the depth of pain and grief and, you know, those conversations around that first for you as a mom, as a woman. And tell me, how old were you when that happened? Do you have children now? Oh, yes. So I was 36 when I had my first son, and my loss was at 40,

and I had my healthy daughter at 41. Wow. Yeah, I mean, here's the thing. A lot of patients talk to me about their age and age cutoffs and the impending sense of doom in terms of getting older. Geriatric pregnancies. I have to admit, and maybe this is just Peter Panish and I was in denial, but I felt young when I was 36

and got pregnant with my son. And that wasn't hard for us. The pregnancy was smooth. The birth was smooth. The birth was uneventful. Like the whole experience, I did feel great. And so the age thing gets into an interesting conversation, I think, because there is so much pressure around that. Of course, people do have more issues with fertility as they get older. I know that's true. And it turns out that my miscarriage, we did get the chromosomal testing back and there

was an abnormality, which I think though was a lot of the reason why I did not go down a shame spiral, self-blame spiral when I had mine. because I felt like something must have been wrong here. Like, I think I trusted that my body was working because I had already had a healthy child. I don't know. And then it turned out that that was the case, you know? And so I think that's an important thing for people to remember that sometimes miscarriage is

because of course, I think it's 80% of miscarriages are due to chromosomal abnormalities. And so if something is not going right in a way, I wish women felt like, oh, my body has this wisdom or, you know, rather than my body failed me and look at all the women around me who don't have issues and look at all the women around me who get to just have, you know, a smooth pregnancy. What I tell my patients all the time though is we don't know her and we don't know her

and we don't know her either. So actually these glowing women that you see walking down the street, we had no idea what they've been through. It's just, we end up feeling so isolated and sort of tucked into ourselves thinking we're the only ones. And that's the part that unfortunately

I do not think has changed enough. And I think, yeah, I think the way forward is replacing the silence with storytelling, which is what my second book is all about. If we were to dare to share, and it does not have to be with a hashtag, it does not have to be on a Ted talk stage, does not have to be on a soapbox. It can be as subtle as sharing our story with our neighbor. It can be as subtle as writing it in our journal. It can be obviously in the context of therapy if people are inclined to do that.

But when we live with our important stories sequestered in ourselves, sequestered in our psyches, I think that's where the shame sprouts and has the potential to take us down. Adam Well and Jack show. Podcast, we're doing it. So I've got a kid. Shocker, I'm gay. Here's what happens with open relationship. What about us scream 60 minutes? All right, let's welcome Alana, Chase, Tara, Dan to Left on Red. Stop it! You have a lot of set times and you're still late for them. Yeah, take care. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere.

Acast.com. What I'm interested in between even men and women in this space is, you know, historically, women have a greater emotional language. So even our capacity to tell the stories tend to be better. And I think like even knowing that, we are still having to have these very clear conversations about like, whoa, we need to say it more. We need to be louder.

We need to do all of these things. And I'm interested in your take on this because I feel like it's a bit of an obligation, a responsibility if you will, because I mean, we have two sons and a daughter and I often think about just the critical ways in which this career has allowed me to be vocal about some really important things. Right. And, and watching my son's watch me becomes really critical in that way. Right. Because you

can't tell anybody how to do it. You've got to show them. And so, you know, tell me, take me a little bit through normalize it and how, how do we get to this place? So my vision of how we can normalize sharing our important stories, talking about hard things, sort of weaving conversations about grief, about life, about death, about loss, about hope, about joy into our daily lives is simpler than it seems. And so, like I said, I don't think people have to necessarily do it in big ways. If they want to, they can. But in my book, I'm trying to explicate through composite patient stories, ways that people can put their words into the world or put their stories into the world in ways that honor them. So if somebody is, I don't know,

considers themselves an introvert or doesn't believe in social media or, you know, doesn't want to talk about something that happened to them that was horrifying within the context of their family. I mean, I'm just trying to think of various examples, but then what can they do to feel that they're not alone, that they're not locked in the cultural required silence, that they can wrestle with the idea that whatever it is that they went through is stigmatized and taboo.

And ultimately, what I think, you know, I'm the most concerned about is the shame piece. Yes, yeah. I think shame eats us alive if we don't tend to it. I think it can become addiction, it can become disorder, you know, eating disorders, it can become so many things because we're grasping at control, we are trying to

get away from our feelings. And so my hope is that people can find these ways, these sort of tender, self-loving, compassionate ways to put it out there so that there's a freedom felt. And because everyone's walking around these days, like you're not alone, you're not alone. Well, just because one in four pregnancies results in miscarriage doesn't mean that you feel less alone. And just because one in seven women are diagnosed

with breast cancer over the course of their lifetime, that doesn't mean I felt less alone when I was diagnosed. I mean, if anything, you're kind of like, what the fuck with me becoming a statistic so often? And like, why did it have to be me? And why couldn't it have been somebody else? Not that you would wish it on somebody else, but it's like, no, but that's the question. Right? You know, or, or I tried to then, you know, over the course of the days after I was diagnosed, I tried to turn it into why not me, you know, like if the statistics aren't this high, like, okay, you know, like this, this is part of life, I guess.

Sometimes we need to feel less alone, not just be reminded that we're not alone. And I think that- Two very different things, right? Yes. And I think the only way we achieve that is through communing. And ideally, it is, of course, with a you know if people are interested in therapy if people can access it if people can afford it if people believe in it um i think that that's an ideal

place to bear one's soul okay but also it can be with a friend try it out it can maybe be with a friend, try it out. It can maybe be with a family member. Let's see. You know, it can also be, let's say an article using a pseudonym, you know, I mean, so there's a lot of ways, I guess I'm trying to explain that there isn't one way and you don't have to reveal yourself in order to reveal your pain. Hmm. You don't have to reveal yourself in order to reveal your pain. You don't have to reveal yourself in order to reveal your pain. That is a fantastic line. And I think, you know, to your point, I think what we know about emotion is that it does not, it cannot kill you, right? Anxiety and depression cannot kill you. It feels like talking about, right? Not talking about it might.

That's exactly. Yes. And and I think I think to your point I think what's really critical in in this place is that we feel like there's the right way to do it, right? so if you're not journaling if you're not like painting with organic paints in the Fucking sunlight like you know what I mean while you're doing yoga You know what I mean? Like I think sometimes I'm like, I always like, okay, I haven't done it right yet as a woman because I haven't like been at sunrise yoga while I'm, you know, eating chia. Like I think that like, I think that you can do it

like in this moment, right? Like, and I think that's the point, right? Is it like, don't you think we overcomplicate some of this shit? Like take it back to the basics for me. I think that you must be the most fun and the most sort of reliant mother because like you're just so real and so deep and so honest that your kids can come to you with anything is my my feeling from you right now.

I love that you say that. Yeah that's the thing. I am anti-perfection all the way. You know, I think all of this like Instagram ready, you know, downward dog, all the like perfect ways of like you said, birthing and nursing and being pregnant or even having lost a pregnancy and just bouncing right back or focusing on quote unquote silver linings or all of these things where it seems like we are doing whatever we're doing in a flawless way. Yeah, I call bullshit. And yeah, those images or these ideas, you know, whether it's on Instagram or billboards or magazine covers, gives us the sense of like, Oh, maybe I don't measure up. Maybe I didn't try hard

enough. Maybe I'm not thin enough. Maybe I don't exercise enough, you know, and it's, we don't need more of that. So I just think that there's zero pressure here. The pressure, if there is any, is to feel more connected to yourself. Okay. And the catalyst for that is putting it somewhere. Because again, like my feeling is when people keep it inside, that is when it becomes what you were saying, anxiety, depression, addiction. That's how it's manifested. Yes. And you're just locked

in yourself. And I think what we've really underestimated and I think this is really critical to talk about because I'll give you a couple of examples about why I think this is true. I think we've really underestimated even if we are smart, educated, informed people. I mean, you've taken time out of your day to listen to a podcast today. So like, let's just say that you're ahead of the curve by a million miles already. Those of us who are thinking, you know, maybe like we're educated in some capacity. I think we, I'm really underestimating just the infiltration of knowledge that happens every single day Because we're still scrolling we still wake up before we even pee check in our email Yeah We are still listening to podcasts at every turn and we're trying to be better and do better and we strap on our watches

And they're little cortisol shooters full of shit coming in here from like the other moms and like what's happening at work? And what's going on? You know, when's our next speaking gig and what's our patients saying and all the things, huh? And I think what's critical about this process is, you know, my 12 year old daughter reminded me of this. She said to me this past week, I think I have an eating disorder. And I said to her, tell me more, right? Because I mean, those words as a psychologist makes me panic. And I'm like, tell me more. She's like, well, I think about it all the time. Now our daughter has is tall. I'm not, but her father is.

And so she's got her dad's legs and she is super athletic and brilliant and smart and all the things. She does not see like maybe 10% of that, okay? And I'm mortified because I think to myself, so first of all, this is the turn then that we take. What did I do wrong? How did I not focus more on, you know, her internal brilliance? How is she being sort of bogged down in this place? We're having big conversations about

nutrition and you know, how much protein is here and how much is this? And like, is this too much mom? And no, I don't need lunch today. And like, whoa, time out. Oh no. Oh my goodness. Like I, and I, and I love it mostly Jessica because I know this to be true. You have to name it to tame it. Yes. And so I am so grateful that we are having these conversations and that she's even saying these things to her dad. So Aaron, my husband called the other day. He's like, holy shit Liz, Livy's losing her mind. And I was like, well, what do you mean she's losing her mind? Well,

she came home from school today and she said she had to come home cause she didn't eat lunch and she was exhausted. And I didn't know that she has all these eating problems. And I said, okay, so now you know. And he's like, well, what do you mean? Now I know. I said, well, she told you, well, she yelled, she yelled it at me. And I was like, uh-huh.

And this is the only thing we've hoped for our kids, right? Is that we would create a safe enough space to talk about the fact that the inundation of expectations that they get every single day that we're allowing them to have access to is going to shift the way they think about themselves and if they have nowhere to tell us about that then we can't right that ship. Exactly, exactly. But the fact that she felt safe enough to turn to you and hopefully you know this hasn't been going on very long or else I'm sure you would have picked up on it means that this can be turned around hopefully quite quickly.

Yeah, for sure. And I think that so many people, you know, if I think about all the vast majority of adolescent girls have these conversations in their head and she's a twin brother. And so, you know, we were all last night talking about it and I said, Evan, do you ever think about your body all the time? He's like, Oh, I don't know. Like, I guess like in the hockey dressing room or, you know, those kind of things. And so we just talked a little bit about how, like, maybe even it's a bit different

for boys and girls or, you know, what does that look like? And do you guys talk about it at school? And and I think it's just, you know, again, the lack I I'm going to give you this stat because it gets me every time as a parent in particular, but it is estimated that our great, great grandparents looked at their children 72% more of the time than we look at our babies today. 72%, which means if I'm going to normalize anything, I have to be present to do it. Yes.

Oh yes. But what does that mean? What do you mean looked at them more than contact? Because we're so busy with our phones and so caught up in other things. Think about the square footage of the house that our grandfather was raised in. Yeah. Think about how many vehicles we had. Think about how many teachers they had. Think about, you know, who we lived in villages where our parents are, you know, our partner's parents or whatever were very accessible. I, you know, I think about this all the time.

I mean, my parents, like, I never remember my grandparents saying we're just going to spend six weeks in California or, you know, we're just going to go to Yuma. Like us Canadians, we all go down to the States for like multiple months. And you know, when we retire this, we're called snowbirds, all the things I don't remember. Like my personal grandmother was on a plane one time. So the job was, and this is one generation. We're not talking about the good old days.

This is my upbringing compared to what our children do now. And I think we're not speaking enough about the increase in single parent families, a decrease in siblings, a decrease in access to grandparent or grandparent-like figures, and the increase in educators and coaches that there's just, there's a plethora.

There's no, I mean, I had the same hockey coach from like when I was in, when I played when I was eight, then when I went to, like he just coached us the whole time because his daughters were our goalies, you know? So, but how different is that now? Right. And, and Ashley, our oldest just started high school. Right.

And so he was telling me about his favorite teacher the other day, because we saw her in the grocery store and it's his teacher from grade two and he's now in grade nine. And I said, well, what about at the high school, babe? Like, is there anybody? He's like, I don't, like, I don't really get to know them, mom, because every day we're in a different place. And I's like, I don't, like, I don't really get to know them. Um, because every day we're in a different place and I'm like, right. And so like this is interesting, yeah. Humans, right? Cause how, how can you normalize things if you don't have the wisdom with which to get it normalized by if you're looking at a tick tock tick tock can't normalize the things. They'll try to normalize wanting to be, you know, a six foot

bear like swimsuit model or something. I don't know. Right. And so I love that. Yeah. So wait, so what happens now? So did your daughter already get her period and where is she at in terms of all of those types of changes? Yes, which is the onset. So, you know, January that started. So period came into play. The moods start to go even bigger. The concerns about eating and my body and it's changing and all those kind of things. All happens in the last three months. And it's just a conversation that has been so lovely because we wouldn't have had that at our kitchen table. The fact that she can say in our, like we were driving to lacrosse or something the other day and she's like, um, her dad asked her if she had, she was having rashes and stuff

on her legs. And she said, no dad, I only get that only when I get my period. And I could see my husband go like, so we're still like, we're still what? Like, whoa, when's the snap word? Like when there's a tampon commercial, my father would leave the room, right? And so like, we're now, right? And so I'm so proud of my husband and I watch even, you know, my brother with his girls and like how we just have to like get in it, you know?

And I think that's the biggest lesson of this generation. Don't you think like, there's so much, again, to your point, the title of your book is amazing. I mean, it's really this piece, normalize it. We will all lose, we will all grieve. It's the universal response to loss is grief. All of us have it. We will all die.

And you know, I often say this, my favorite quote of all time is Ram Dass's words. He said, we are all just here walking each other home. Oh, I love that. So powerful. And because it's just, this human experience is so complicated, but it is so universal. That's right. And it has never felt more isolating. Hey, I know we've got to break through this. Um, it sounds like that's what you're doing with your daughter.

And that's what more people need to be doing. But it's because you have the background that you do probably that you're so skilled at this. And so what would you think then, you know, in terms of, you know, our listeners or, you know, the people who are in your community, what are some of the things you start to say, you know, how do we bring these conversations to light? How do we, how do we sort of come out of the silence? Who's responsible for that? If we give somebody a responsibility? And you know, what does that start to look like? I mean, it is a good question. Where does the responsibility lie? And I think, you know, we could blame it all on culture. Okay. But we're part of that, right? And, and you, as you brought up, the generational changes are very relevant as well. Yeah. So I feel like how beautiful would it be if around the dinner table miscarriage could be talked

about? What about menstruation? What about period cramps? What about, I mean, we wouldn't need to talk about this to our kids yet, but what about eventually talking to them about perimenopause and menopause. The fact that they say that perimenopause can go on for 10 years, but somehow women are so unprepared and under-educated about this. Why? Because again, it's one of these hush-hush topics that, and it's not pretty. And so people don't want to talk about it and aging women and the invisibility of us

at a certain age. That's its own full issue that is also included in normalize it. So if we were to talk about these things, even just starting with our loved ones, like your daughter is with you, she's like, I think I might have an eating disorder. I mean, she could have hidden that from you until she went off to college. Or she could have, I don't know, turned to a friend who may have egged her on.

I mean, we just don't know. Because I think that starts to happen. And one of the conversations I had with her is, okay, so there's a big difference between an eating disorder and disordered eating. That's right. So let's start to talk about that big difference between an eating disorder and disordered eating. That's right Let's let's start to talk about that right because many women experience disordered eating Here's what it means when we have a clinical diagnosis, so we have all those conversations, but I love I love to The the idea oh and also I'll just say like it scares the shit out of me, right?

Like let's not like I'm no fucking hero here like I'm I'm still haven't ruled out the fact that like I've Misplayed this whole situation and we're gonna end up on an inpatient unit sometimes. No, goodness. But like, I mean, I think I wanna normalize it that too. Like, is that like, you know, if you miss it or you think you've missed it, like it's never too late.

Like the other question I would have to- And it's not always our faults. No! You know, because I'm so hard on myself as a mother too, when I see my kids doing this or that and you know, they're pretty, you know, uh, simple examples that I'm thinking of, but still I go straight to like, wait, how did I influence them to be this way? And it's like, wait, wait, it's not all personal, You know, they have a whole world outside of the family that influences them and access to social media.

Sometimes my daughter doesn't yet she's 11, but you know, so it's not all our fault if they struggle because these things are just so prevalent in the world outside of the house. Yeah, exactly. And I, and to your point about menopause, I think that that is also something that would are just so prevalent in the world outside of the house. Yeah, exactly. And to your point about menopause, I think that that is also something that would have never been spoken around my kitchen table as a child or as an adolescent.

And I think now, particularly as an older mom, we had Asher at 36, the twins at 38. I think it was like, now this is a real thing. Liv gets her period. And I'm in this perimenopausal experience where like we didn't, we had to talk to the kids about it. I was so, I've never said this on the podcast either, but like there was this time I was on the stage.

So I ended up needing a blood transfusion because I bled for three months and just assumed that like, it'll be okay, it'll be okay. I was on stage, I had a diva cup, like in a a monster pad on and I remember wrapping up my talk and there was blood. I'd leather pants on. Thanks Jesus. Going down my leg into my boot. No. And I remember thinking like, you know, just sort of that rush of like, oh, okay, here it is. And like, you know, of course, after sometimes people want to talk to you and sign books and do all the kind of, I was like, excuse me, excuse me, pardon me, excuse me.

And it was not even three weeks after that then that I, you know, after a talk I collapsed and I needed a blood transfusion and nine iron infusions, none of which, I mean, I felt as though I was fairly educated in the space of, you know, paramedic pause and what's happening in our bodies and, and almost died of heart failure. What was the explanation for this? What, how did this happen? That is so terrifying. Isn't that something I had, I have a bulky uterus.

And so the idea was that, um, sometimes as you, you know, as, as your uterus matures, right, it just continues to slough, umough all the pieces of your, and it just doesn't stop. So then oftentimes what they do is an ablation, but that wouldn't work really well for me because it's within the lining of my uterine walls, apparently. And then, so that wasn't an option. And then we talked about a hysterectomy and then we had a big conversation about why and you know, the pros and benefits and everybody has, or benefits and costs and everybody has their opinion about that. And then we had a big conversation about why and you know, the pros and benefits and everybody has benefits and costs and everybody has their opinion about that. And then we, we tried to do an IUD, um, which worked beautifully.

So the suggestion was, yep, is just to sort of control that, give it the message that actually it does not need to slough 24 hours a day, seven days a week, uh, in this moment. And so then it slowed everything and that's,'ve been that was almost a year ago now and And you know everything the iron levels are back up on all those things But I had never like first of all when I went through this I had no idea my mother had had a hysterectomy We didn't talk about it. We didn't wow Wait, so did she have it electively or she yes, okay as a result of yes So there was a conscious decision made because the paramenopause was becoming so problematic.

Yeah. This is the thing. Why aren't we talking about this? Well, and this is Oprah's biggest switch lately, you know, or not switch, but like she just did that, that whole conversation about it, which is really quite frankly, I mean, the first time that I had really heard anybody take it on that big and that publicly, which I'm so grateful for. Right. And then like, what a timing for normalize. I know there's some great books that have come out about menopause lately, and

I'm so happy to see it. I am not in menopause yet, but I'm flirting with it. And I think perimenopause is something that needs to be discussed because as you said, when we have teenagers ourselves and we are going through so much change too, that is a wild dynamic. Oh my God. Like that should be legal. Really. Like I, I don't know who planned this shit, but like obviously this is, and then, and now our aging parents have access to us way more than ever, right? So we're in this, the Samus generation is such a real thing,

you know, particularly when you wait longer to have kids. That's true, I know that does make me wish that we had started having kids younger in a way because I'm like, whoa, this is just too many things happening all at once. But I mean, how? Who do you think I am? And how would we have known this?

Like I felt like a baby at 35. I couldn't have had kids younger. I don't know. I know. I know. I know. All right. So what would you say, just a couple more questions here, what would you say is some of the greatest learnings that you've come out, you know, in, in, in an effort to write this book, what do you think surprised you the most Jessica about where we're at right now? That's a very important question. I think what surprised me most is just how complicated and circular this, what I call the strident trifecta of silence, stigma and shame can be. And it feels like it's a through line in almost every conversation with patients, even sometimes in friendships and definitely within this book of feeling. And I, but I think people are clamoring to get out. You

know, I think people want to feel freer because of people like you're saying, like Oprah, you know, bringing some of these things into the light. But I think the ways in which the silence and the taboos can manifest and then become this sort of shattering shame is my biggest concern. And I feel like there's gotta be something more that we can do about this because it is becoming the eating disorders and it is becoming, you know, addictions and things that kind of swirl out of control because they're not managed out loud. Right. So when we're

just stuffing and stuffing and I'm just going to feel better and I'll take this pill and I won't eat all day or I will eat this thing and that will make me feel better. I mean, we're trying so hard to self-medicate sometimes. I think it's because we're lonely. We're feeling isolated. We feel like we can't say out loud the very thing that we need to say the most. Yeah, okay, awesome. And I think what I love, I'm thinking about this all the time too.

I think my next book is really around this idea of, we've spent so much time pulling people out at the bottom of the river, right? Like, and where do we get, you know, in this complicated space, where do we slow it down and start much sooner, much earlier to sort of regulate the nervous system, but put the people who are in charge in much more regulated spaces so that they can navigate some of these big, heavy, hard conversations. Because I think it's very difficult to navigate it when you're in the middle of it, right?

Your book came out after, you know, you had a precip, like this beautiful knowledge, then you're in the middle of it, and then you can turn it around. And you know, as you said about me, right? My daughter comes to me, so I have some clinical experience, which really what we know about our own children doesn't apply, but anyway.

But it's this, you know, we're educated in these moments, but it's often as a result of our greatest tragedies that then we then sort of go back and try to assess, assist or assess. And so I think part of what I'm really grappling with right now is like, okay, so how do we, given what we know now in this emotional space, regardless of how we're going to transition into AI and you know, everything that's going to sort of make this world more automated, how we know this to be true that we need to stay connected. How do we do this earlier, sooner, safer, quicker? How do we start to be more disciplined around our devices and our expectations of our children and our expectations of our partners and of ourselves in order to access the best parts of us, right? And I think that's

there's so much there that I think this book is gonna start those conversations. I think it's, I'm so excited to see where it goes. In April, she's out into the world. Probably this podcast will air after she's out into the world. So we're gonna put the links in all the show notes. People can find you and Jessica, your social media I'm assuming, everybody can find you there. Yes, I'm on Instagram at I had a miscarriage and my website is dr. Jessica Zucker calm and you can find books everywhere books are sold

Dr. Zucker it was a Privilege thank you so much for Hanging out with this community today. They are they're lucky to have you and I can't wait to watch where you take it and you Thank you so much for having me. You're welcome. You're welcome. All right, my friends, hang on to yourself, hang on to each other, stay connected and in all the hardest parts and I will meet you right back here next time. Unlonely Podcast is produced by three incredible humans, Brian Siever, Taylor McGilvery, and Jeremy Saunders, all of Snack Lab Productions.

Our executive producer, my favorite human on this planet, is Marty Piller. Soundtracks were created by Donovan Morgan, Unlonely branded artwork created by Elliott Cuss, our big PR shooters are Des Venot and Barry Cohen. Our digital marketing manager is the amazing Shana Haddon. Our 007 secret agent from the talent bureau is Jeff Lowness. And emotional support is provided by Asher Grant, Evan Grant, and Olivia Grant. Go live. I am a registered clinical psychologist in Alberta, Canada.

The content created and produced in this show is not intended as specific therapeutic advice. The intention of this podcast is to provide information, resources, education, and the one thing I think we all need the most, a safe place to land in this lonely world. We're all so glad you're here. It's the Adam's best podcast. Here's a show that we recommend. It's the Adam, Well and Jack show. Podcast, we're doing it. So I've got a kid. Shocker, I'm gay.

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