Unlonely with Dr. Jody Carrington - Sovereign Love: Dené Logan

Episode Date: July 25, 2024

Dené Logan is a Marriage and Family Therapist, a group facilitator, and an author based in Los Angeles. She specializes in helping couples find more fulfillment in their relationships. Dené utilizes her background in depth psychology to support others in reclaiming the aspects of the Self we’ve been conditioned to reject in an attempt to maintain attachments.Her first book, Sovereign Love: A Guide to Healing Relationships by Reclaiming the Masculine and Feminine Within, is being released in May of 2024. Dené is also co-host of the podcast, Cheaper than Therapy.In this episode Dr. Jody and Dene chat about all things relationships, masculine and feminine energies and her new book Sovereign Love. This deep conversation about therapy and couples work is a must listen.Dene's links:Instagramwww.denelogan.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at one you need, whenever you need it. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. At the beginning of every episode, there will always be time for an acknowledgement. You know, the more we do this, people ask, why do you have to do the acknowledgement and every episode? I got to tell you, I've never been more grateful for being able to raise my babies on a land where so much sacrifice was made. And I think what's really critical in this process is that the ask is just

that we don't forget. So the importance of saying these words at the beginning of every episode will always be of utmost importance to me and this team. So everything that we created here today for you happened on Treaty 7 land, which is now known as the center part of the province of Alberta. It is home of the Blackfoot Confederacy, which is made up of the Siksika, the Kainai, the Pekinni, the Tatina First Nation, the Stony Nakota First Nation, and the Métis Nation Region 3. Our job, our job as humans, is to simply acknowledge each other. That's how we do better, be better, and welcome in my fellow humans. I am so grateful that you joined us again today in this Everyone Comes From Somewhere podcast. I got to tell you, this guest is going to be a good one. And I don't know that I say, I've never opened with this guest is going to be shitty, but I got to tell you, I met this woman. We did a podcast together just as a, for a pre-event

that we did. Um, we never met each other before and she has the most remarkable energy. There's something about this woman that I was like, I cannot wait to learn more, hear more. Um, and she's just done such remarkable things in her career on the precipice of her first book. I feel like so lucky to get get to be able to have a conversation with her and introduce her to this community, because I think it's going to be just such a fantastic place for you to land. And I want to tell you a little bit about her. Okay. So Danae Logan is a marriage and family therapist, a group facilitator, and an author. And she's based in Los Angeles, which feels so always so cool to us Canadians.

I don't really give a shit what you do, but if you live in LA, you're fucking cooler than we are. She specializes in helping couples find more fulfillment in their relationships. The thing that we talk about around here all the time. Now, Danae utilizes her background in depth psychology to support others in reclaiming the aspects of the self that we've been conditioned to reject in an attempt to maintain attachments. Her first book, Sovereign Love, A Guide to Healing Relationships by Reclaiming the Masculine and Feminine Within, is being released this May, actually next week, May 28th. She's also a co-host of the podcast Cheaper Than Therapy, which is also a fantastic place to land.

So we're going to dive in today talking about relationships and love and like what the scary words like masculine and feminine energy. And I, what I know the most as a therapist, and I love when we get to sink into this whole therapist talk, but I know that the biggest difference between empathy and judgment often comes in understanding where somebody comes from. So I want to start right there. Tell me, Danae Logan, where do you come from? Where do I come from? It's so funny.

As you were talking about Los Angeles, you know, I've lived in Los Angeles for almost 20 years now, like 17, 18 years. I don't even remember. I'd have to go back and calculate. And yet I am, I think forever and always a Midwestern girl at heart. I was born in Chicago, Evanston to be specific. And then I lived most of my childhood in Omaha, Nebraska and until I left for college. But I think that there's so much about like the Midwestern sensibility that still informs like the way I moved through the world But I think that there's so much about like the Midwestern sensibility

that's so informed, like the way I moved through the world. I, I lived in New York for a little while before I met my husband and like, you know, and it just, it was funny how much everywhere I would go, people are like, you just really like smile at people. I'm like, I think it's Midwest in me. I think that just doesn't leave you. Shocking. You're nice. People are just flabbergasted. I love that. So what was it like growing up in that family? Where do you fit? Do you have siblings? I have one older brother, although I joke a lot of times it feels like I'm the older sibling. I think there's just something about the dynamics between girls and boys. I always feel like he's kind of my younger brother in some ways. And then even as

I say that in some ways, he's like a protective force in my life as well. But I have one brother and yeah, growing up in Omaha was interesting. I think it would probably be a lot different today than it was for me then. Growing up as a woman of color in Nebraska, I often joke like I had a best friend who was Korean and we were sort of the diversity in our high school. And like growing up, it was like us. And they used to like take pictures of us to put on the catalog, like, see, we're like a multicultural. And I was like, yeah. Did you understand the tokenism even in that, in that moment? Like, did that, did that resonate for you? Or was that like like, okay, this is my role? I don't think I understood it as much as I do sort of like in retrospect at the time,

but that, you know, we were like, we were sort of like always all over all the things because we were that. And it's certainly not that much. And, you know, I'm obviously exaggerating a bit for a fact. I think there were a few more minorities in the school, but, you know, I'm obviously exaggerating a bit for a fact. I think there were a few more minorities in the school. But, you know, we were definitely the token. And I can understand now how much that sort of cultivated a little bit of discomfort in my skin when I was younger.

And this thing of like, I'm extremely introverted, but used to really perform extroversion a lot when I was younger. And I think so much of that was just like a really strong desire to fit in and have people forget that I was different, that I used to move through the world with. Oh yeah. And what brought mom and dad to Nebraska? What was the starting point there? It's a really interesting story. Is it okay if I call you Jodi? I quit into the doctor. I'm like, is it okay if I call you Jodi? it's a really interesting story. Yes, my parents were McDonald's owner operators. Funny enough, because I today I'm a vegetarian. It's like funny to think back that my roots are in McDonald's, but my dad went to Hamburger University. And when you go to Hamburger U, they decide where you're going to get a franchise.

And they chose Omaha, Nebraska for my dad. My mom was, as you can imagine, from Chicago. Like, what? So we landed in Nebraska. And we were, you know, the Black family. Who owned the McDonald's? We were three friends at McDonald's. And that was my childhood.

That's amazing. Did you, like, did you, being a part of that business, I mean, I see you now as such a successful, thoughtful business woman as you navigate your practice and, you know, this message into the world. Do you think there, you know, how did you watch mom and, was mom part of the business too? Yeah. How did you, like navigating that now? Do you, what did you learn from them? You know, I love that question. I think what I really took away

from that is like, you are responsible. Like I think whatever job I've ever had, I've really had a sense of ownership around my part. And that I was sort of like, I was responsible for whatever was my responsibility. And I think it's because at the end of the day, it was like the buck stops with me, with my parents. And like, if people didn't show up, it was their business. They had to get in there and figure it out and make it happen. And so I've always sort of carried that thing of like, I don't know. I'm, I don't know that I'm always like the best delegator. I couldn't get better at that, but I'm very like, I'll do it. I'll get it done. Like I'll make it, I'll make it happen because I think it's just like, we got to execute. We got to figure it out. I just like have that. And I'm a Capricorn. So I have a lot of like that. Oh my God. I want

to know all the things like about what that means when you say like I'm Capricorn. So how did, how did you come into this place of, you know, depth psychology? What brought you into this world of therapy? Did you always know this is what... Take me through the journey of Omaha, Nebraska to this now renowned therapist. What happens in between there? Yeah. Well, I joke that I did. I went through a period of really having a lot of discomfort in my skin when I was younger. I think like the comfort that I feel today, like was hard fought, like it was a journey to get here. And when I was younger, I think, you know, I did a lot of partying. I did a lot of drinking. I did a lot of, you know, that thing I was talking about, about just like attempting to fit in.

And I struggled with like an eating disorder when I was younger. And I just, I really sort of like had all of these things that were like me attempting to be what I thought the societal framework of who I was supposed to be was, um, that made me like, feel like I was struggling and therapy was something that, you know, early on I came into and I just loved it. I was one of those people that like, it felt like getting a massage. Like I loved attempting to understand like why I was one of those people that like, it felt like getting a massage. Like I loved attempting to understand like why I was doing these things, what the behavior patterns were about. And I've always loved like the, you know, the Oprah's soul series and like attempting to understand like why we as humans are the way we are. And like really that spiritual seeking was something that really

resonated with me from like a young age. Um, and so, yeah, I feel like you're about to say something. It's the therapist in me. That's like, what? Yes. I know. I know. I, this is okay. So for our listeners, like, this is the hard part where we met was at a conference at where all of us were therapists in some capacity, served humans in this role of counselor therapist. And like what I found so fascinating when we all meet together, it's sort of like, you're like, are you, are we, yeah, cool. Oh my God. Because when I'm in the room by myself, like I'm the expert, I can fucking tell you what is going to happen in this world of psychology. That's how we all know. And all of us, there was, I don't know,

seven of us that come together in this room to serve humans around relationship and connection. And I think, you know, there was so much of like, oh my, is that, yeah, we agree. Wow. Huh? Like that was the first time that I was at this place where I, like, I don't know, like I speak a lot and you do some speaking. Is this right? Yeah. Like more recently it's becoming. Obviously you're so great at this. And I think it's oftentimes when we're invited to do this, it's like you're coming to serve, you know, an organization or a person. And, you know, bringing all of us together was fantastic because we all end up at the same place,

which is remarkable to me around human connection relationship. And how we get there is there's so many roads to home. And I think that it's like, it's so fascinating. So, so tell me about, you know, for you, what was sort of this draw into this Jungian conversations? And I actually just define that place. Like, how do you understand the world given all you've been through and, you know, track this place? What becomes the easiest way to understand this human condition? Before I became a therapist, I was a yoga teacher for many years.

And yoga for me was like my entry point, I like to say a lot of times, back into my body and into the space of embodiment. And really connecting to something bigger than myself that felt true. I think I used to go to church when I was younger. Occasionally we weren't like people that like regularly went to church, but when I did, there was a lot about the conceptualization around like religion that just didn't resonate for me. It just didn't feel true. I would hear things about, you know, like women somehow being less than or like meeting, like, you know, whatever, or like things about the LGBTQI community that I'd be like, that just doesn't feel true. Like, I can't believe God thinks that. And so I just like rejected completely. Like, and I used to like, it's funny to think this now, but I used to think religion was like silly. And I like used to not resonate with any of these sort of like spiritual ways of being. And then I found yoga and it was like someone speaking about spirit or the divine or God or whatever we choose to call it in a way that I was like, oof, this feels true. This resonates. And it was like, you're describing

like a homecoming, like someone speaking a truth that I'd always somewhere knew, but I'd forgotten. And I just started to become a little bit obsessed, like I was saying, with these spiritual teachers and attempting to understand why we're here, where we came from, where we go when we leave these bodies, all of those big existential questions. And I found that as a yoga teacher, people a lot of times would have these somatic experiences. A lot would be coming up in their body and they'd be asking me questions that I really wasn't equipped to answer. But I was fascinated by the questions they were asking me and really what I was doing to heal and to come into deeper layers of healing and sort of wanting to pay that forward. And so when I decided to go back to grad school to become a therapist, it just felt really like the natural progression for me to go into like a more, like, you know, depth psychology is often referred to as like the psychology of the soul or like,

you know, like this way of understanding our experience as spiritual beings. And it felt like it really resonated. And Jungian psychology felt like a path into this work that like just felt really true for me. Oh, I love that. And you know, I think I, I spent a lot of time in this world of trauma and first responder work and, you know, understanding, you know, kids who have struggled so significantly with just, just wildly blown apart attachment systems that it's, we've tried for so long to fix the world with words. And so much of what we experience is unwritten. And would you say like, does, does that make a lot of sense to you? Couldn't agree more. And you know, it's so interesting, Jodi. I feel like even as someone who is a talk therapist more and more, I feel like

it's not that I'm feeling like less drawn to talk therapy because I feel like it always has its place. And there's something about the relational work that is always going to be so unbelievably potent. And in terms of trauma, I went to a trauma conference. I think you and I were talking about this earlier this year with Bessel van der Kolk and my friend Luis Mojica, who I want to give like the biggest shout out, like the most brilliant role that like everyone needs to know. But just the things that I was seeing about like how the body holds on to things and that a lot of times we need to like come into that embodied experience of attempting to heal what hurts in a way that I just don't think we get there when we're just like in our heads, um, intellectualizing our experience for years sometimes. Oh my God.

Can you talk more about that? Can you, can you give us examples of that, what that looks like? Um, because I, I'd love to just like speak that truth even bigger. Yeah. I mean, I think for me in 2020, that was such a potent realization of why somatic work is so important. I would sort of be, I mean, we were like in, I would say a collective experience of trauma. Like we forget, like we didn't know what was happening. We didn't know if we could bring our groceries inside. Like people were like leaving them outdoors. Wiping shit down. I mean, me included, right? Get the baby wipes. We still have some left over from the twins. Wipe the fucking mini weights

because we don't know, right? Yeah, absolutely. But I think that we forget because it was a little while ago, like what that contraction in our bodies did to us to just feel like, I don't know that I'm okay. And the stories I'm telling myself about what could conceivably happen. And that I would be holding so much for clients and within myself.

And then I would start to, I did this thing called the class and you can like do it for a while online for free. If anybody's interested in looking into it, it's amazing. I'm a big proponent, but it's a lot of like somatic work, but through like, you know, you're talking about spiritual concepts while you're like shaking and dancing and like getting all of this stuff out. And Jodi, I would just sob. Like I would just feel this like cathartic release coming over me. And I wouldn't even realize how much I was holding in my body until I started to like move. And, you know, something Bessel did some work with a client that he had videotaped when I was at that conference that I was telling you about. And something he said to that client is he was sort of walking her through this experience of like getting all that was she was holding out of her body was like, that is the narrative that I've been telling myself. But in this moment, I'm okay. And the moment she really like could actually feel the felt experience of

after I've moved through this in my body, I am in this moment right now in my body. Okay. Everything started to shift for her. And I think we as human animals are the only animals that don't sort of like play the tape, the process all the way through like other animals, they'll be like attacked in the wild, but they don't hold it. They sort of like, you'll watch them. They literally like shake it off and they know they're okay. And they keep moving, right? Like an antelope gets like chased by a lion, like he'll shake it off and he's not like, oh, the experience. I'm traumatized from lions. Like on with his life and he's moved on from it. But we don't really give ourselves the experience of like, I went through that.

I like process what that was. I move it through my body up and out. And in this moment now I'm okay after doing that. And replacing that message. I think that's so critical. And so just to clarify, you know, if you're listening, so somatic work is always another word for somatic work is in the body. And, you know, we often think that we can talk through it. And this has been

the theory for a very long time. Right. But the idea more is that, you know, and Bessel van der Kook, as you know, he's such a hero to me, wrote the body keeps the score. And the truth in that language is so I've never, ever felt it to the being that I do these days in sessions, because even, I mean, I haven't been in this business for more than two decades, right? But the training still is very much in a cognitive behavioral way of operating. Still, the standard practice across any licensing body is this cognitive behavioral way of operating, which is not bad. Let me say, if you're, you know, seeking therapy and you're like, oh my God, we're doing cognitive behavioral therapy. It's good. It's still the standard

order of practice. But what happens so often is that that is one of the easiest things to measure your cognitions and your behaviors, which is why there's the vast amount of research and therapeutic practice tends to land in those places that you can measure. What makes mental health still so stigmatized in so many ways is you can't measure what the body experiences as easily as you can a thought, you know, my anxiety rating or whatever that thing is. So when we move into this place of somatic work, I think there's been resistance for a very long time in the world of therapeutic practice because it's like, how do we measure it? But I will tell you the most effective work

in anybody who's experienced anything more than a clown phobia is we have to move into the somatic work, which is I need to know where you feel it. I need to know where you feel it when you start to think about that memory or that experience or being in that situation. And that's where the greatest work comes. And Denae, I think, you know, to your point, I think that the idea is we look ridiculous when we're doing work and we shake it out. I never talk about this often as a therapist, but I, every time when I have a heavy day of clients, I'll go into our kitchen at our office and jump, run in the spot, dance it out, shake it out. And people are like, is that, nobody trained me to do that in the clinical psychology PhD. I promise you there was no conversation about you need to shake your body out when you hold the stories of other people.

And can you imagine if we, if we gave that permission to teachers, to police officers, to people who in the vast majority of their day, nurses, physicians are holding the most dysregulated states of humans. Because in human services professions, what we do is hold the dysregulation of others. And the epitome of that, maybe the epitome of that is therapy, where we're asking you to bring into session the biggest things that you're holding. And they will always come as things. This happened, this happened, this happened. And I'll give you an example real quick. So I have a police officer I've seen for many, many years, medical doubt of, um, our national police force and, um, would often say, she would often say, here's the litany of things that have happened this week. This is why I'm

feeling so bad. This happened. Mom got sick. The kids are awful. You know, I didn't get this approved, you know? And so we would take 30, 40 minutes of every session to go through the list. Okay. Which we got to hear it. You got to hold space for it, but the quickest I can transition into everything out of the head and into the body. So this last session they came in with, um, a sore back, couldn't even walk into the session. Okay. And you know, everything's a big deal. And so I was like, I don't actually, I, I, I'm so grateful you're here. I don't care what's happened to you this week. All I want you to focus on is that back. We're going to breathe into it. You're going to tell me everything about what color it is, what shape it

is. And she's like, this is fucked. I'm like, I know. And it's the great, and I think it's so interesting in navigating. Now I'm in rural Alberta, right? So like the heart of so many traditional conservative beliefs. And so when you start talking about feeling it in your body, giving it a color, a space, can we approach it? Can it speak to you? Like, can what speak to me? My, my back pain. Yep. Can we approach it? Right. It is like the most ridiculous. And then what happens always pays off, which is what kind of voodoo magic are you fucking doing here? Because it feels better. Huh? It's my favorite place. Tell me about that. This is what kind of voodoo magic are you fucking doing here? Because it feels better. Huh? It's my favorite place. Tell me about that. This is what you do every day, all day. And I just

adore it. And I think what's so potent about what you're saying is really the voodoo magic is presence because when we bring that person into the experience of where they are feeling, what they are feeling in their body, what color, all of the things that you're saying, what that does is it brings us out of the story of the future and what could conceivably go wrong or the past and what has hurt me that I'm like still in pain about. And right now in my body, I am here. I am now. And most of the time in this moment, we are okay. Right. But that's the like mindfulness work. And a lot of times I just feel like the body gives us an access point to like that felt experience of I'm actually okay right now. And tell me about sovereign love. Tell me about how some of these things now have really,

you've invested so much of your work in this relationship, this intimate piece of how masculine and feminine energy are all such a part of this that we just don't talk about. We don't have a script for this. And you're like the guru in this space. So tell me, tell me it all. Well, I don't know about all that, but I have found that this has become a love affair for me over the last few years, attempting to understand these dualities. And I think we all talk about them in the therapeutic space in different ways. I'm primarily a couples therapist. And what's different about the way that I was like working with couples and seeing them is this background in depth psychology. And so I think none of the

clinical training that I had around how to do couples work really gave me any way of like conceptualizing, like, how do we do this soul work and like really holding one another in what I would think of as the sacred. You know, even as you were talking about cognitive behavioral therapy, there's a very sort of linear structural way that we are conditioned to hold all of these aspects of our life experience that has just been what we hold as valuable. Now, I would sort of think of that in the way that I talk about these energetics as like a masculine way of holding it. A lot of times, it's a wounded masculine way of holding whatever these principles are. But we're a society that has really just been conditioned to devalue, condemn, not like think there's a lot of worth in all of the different feminine aspects of who we are. Now, when I speak about masculine and feminine, I'm not speaking about them in the context of gender so much as I'm speaking about them as energetics.

And Carl Jung was sort of the first person to really speak to the fact that all of us have both masculine and feminine energetics within us, but we've sort of understand they're a lot more nuanced and not so binary as the way that young, young talked about them. But when I was really doing this, like deep dive and, you know, like saying to myself, like, as you started off saying, like, there's a lot of energy, even around the words, masculine and feminine, a of us have pain points and have felt othered or, you know, wounding around those labels. And so I was like, I don't know, do I talk about them in all of the other ways that you can talk about these binaries? We can say like sun, moon, yin, yang, dominant, submissive, like it goes on. But what I realized was I'm not going to do to

the feminine principle what we have done for centuries, which is diminish it and say that like, you know, sometimes like if we're to say to a man who identifies as like a core masculine man, you're a lot in your feminine energy right now. That's like considered a dig or like there's negative connotation to that, but we don't question why that is. Right. And so to me, it's similar to if you say to me like today, I don't see color. Well, to me, but we don't question why that is. Right. And so to me, it's, it's similar to, if you say to me like today, I don't see color. Well, to me, that feels like you're not really seeing the nuance and the complexity of my human experience if we can't talk about it. But that to me is like these masculine and feminine energetics. If we can't talk about the way that we've been socialized around gender, it's not that those things aren't true. It's just

that we're not acknowledging them and in the exploration of them. So I'm sort of like, let's do it. Let's talk about it. Take a little bit of the like, you know, judgment and offer one another, one another, all the grace in our relationships. But I, I realized there's so much about the way we're socialized around gender and these binaries that are making it like near impossible for us to experience fulfillment in our relationship. A hundred percent. And we are the first generation that are really rewriting the roles of men and women, you know, as, as they are typically defined. And I think that's so fascinating because I think, you know, to this day, we talk about boys don't cry, high strata suicide in your country and mine is middle-aged men. There is this capacity to be able to name it in order to integrate it. And when you don't have that emotional language, I mean, historically we've even said, you know, in organizations,

it's the soft skills, which are secondary to the PNLs and the Q1s and all of the things that we need to get organized. When we think about, you know, you're skating like a girl, you're running like a girl, like those that is synonymous with that is not good things. And so questioning that today matters more. I mean, I say this all the time with two sons and a daughter that the future is female. And what I'm really saying is the future future is the female energy. It is this capacity to sink into mode. Not that we don't need the masculine energy, not that that is not equally as important in so many ways. How does that dance look so much more integrated in the success of our relationships, our organizations, our, you know, our, our intimate marriages? What, what are you finding the most when couples come in to you these days? What, like, what are,

I mean, the data would suggest there's an increased divorce rate. The data would suggest people are not getting married, uh, in the traditional sense as much anymore. How do you make sense of all of that? Yeah, you named it. And I think what I started to realize, Jodi, is so much of the way that we're conditioned to hold this couple's work is really from an attachment-based model. And similar to what you were just saying, that's not bad. It's just that there's more to the story than that. And all of us as human animals, I believe, and this is something Dr. Gabramate speaks to, but really everybody speaks to in all of these different frameworks that we need attachment, but we also need authenticity. The Gottmans will talk about it. In imago therapy, they'll talk it. Like everyone talks about these two binaries that we need to feel, you know, fulfillment and relationships. However, for the most part, what we're really conditioned to put a ton of emphasis on is how do we maintain the attachment? How do we keep this intact? How do we keep this container together? The relationship, you know, this attachment thriving. And it's like more

communication. How do we like get our needs met? All of these things that are very like reparent your partner through this relational model, right? Now that's great. And there's this other aspect of us, which is the feminine aspect of us, which is the eros, the life force, the sensuality, the aliveness. Now, what I see most frequently couples coming in with are either some sort of a struggle around their physical intimacy, excuse me, and that we've just basically become like roommates. There's no desire for one another or a rupture that has occurred based on the fact that we had become like roommates, that there was like no life force in our relationship anymore. Right. And so what I realized is there's something that happens when we start to reparent our partner. One, in a lot of ways, we are sort of stunting our developmental process. And I am someone who certainly experienced this in my own life and in

my own marriage, that there are a lot of ways when I was focused on where my partner wasn't quote meeting my needs and why he was like, you know, not what I needed him to be for all of these various reasons. I wasn't taking a lot of responsibility for my own inner work and my own development because I didn't have to, I could distract myself with him. So there's that one point. But then the other point is I am most attracted to my partner when they are sort of the erotic other, when they are like, you know, I'm seeing them at a distance or other people are discovering them. And I'm a little bit curious about that. All of these things that we've really made wrong societally because they are like the uncontrollable, dark, feminine aspects

of who we are. We've made those things unnecessary, but they are necessary. And when we sort of push something down, it comes to the surface in some maladaptive ways, as I know you know. And so it's like, if we attempt to suppress the feminine aspects of who we are, they will rear their head. It will just do it in some ways that are challenging in our relationships. And so there's all these distortions of what we need to like thrive, not only in our relationships, but as like an individuated self. And I believe that's our work is to like become more self-actualized versions of ourselves. But I think our relationships are really sort of becoming a hindrance to that versus like

supporting our growth process. And so you would say like in your couple's work, then do you do a lot of individual work as well? Good question. So I think it's a lot of like personal responsibility work. Now something, and this is one of the first things that my mentor, who I know you love as well, Esther Burrell taught me when I started working with her is like, everyone comes to couples therapy and it's like a drop-off center. It's like, here's what's wrong with my spouse. You fix them. And so what I say to almost every single couple I work with is the only way this work will be effective is if each of you make the decision to take 100% responsibility for what you yourself are bringing this to this dynamic.

Because what we all want to do is point out what our partner's not doing and what they need to change. And, you know, like how hard has changed for all of us within ourselves? Like, we'll all be like, I'm going to start this healthy eating program tomorrow and then not do it. Right. But when it comes to our partner, we believe that they should be able to implement the change that we want them to, to make and sustain it, even though that's hard for all of us. Right. But the only person that can take responsibility for change is us. So to, you know, the point and the question you were asking, I really attempt to support couples in like, how do I take 100% responsibility for my 100%? And I believe because we are energetic beings, when I shift the energy between us,

our dynamic shifts, but I can't make that happen because I'm attempting to control it. Oh, wow. The holidays are coming, and nobody wants to deal with seasonal bugs making their way through the family. That's where Maple comes in. No more scrambling for open clinics during holiday festivities. One membership covers the whole family, making it a gift that keeps on giving this season. And with over a million five-star reviews,

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And Peloton has everything you need, whenever you need it. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. That is phenomenal. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. in my head. You know, is there sort of a process of like, I have to acknowledge that this is shitty. I get it that, you know, your perception is your story for me is that like, she is so cold and does not give you any connection and loves the kids way more than she loves you. And that never, and, you know, and he can say maybe, or they can say something about the other side,

right? Like, you know, yeah. Like all I do is, or all they do is work and they don't give a shit about me and like, whatever. Right. So is there a time where we get to hear that perception of each other and then we bring them back together? Or do we just jump right into that place of what are you responsible for? Yeah. So I believe on a soul level, whatever the relationship dynamic is, has been placed in my life to show me to me. Now, the unsexy part of relationships is we always choose and partner with our unfinished business, right? So this person- Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. We always choose to partner with our unfinished business, meaning there will be, it's, you know, there's like that, like that 12 step like moniker, like if it's hysterical, it's historical. Meaning I chose this person because it reminds me of something that's painful.

And like the inner child within me thinks if I can just get this person to fall in line, if I can just get them to love me the way that mom couldn't love me, then that will mean I was worthy of mom's love all along. Right. But it's like I choose the person like there can be. I often joke with women a lot of times because I do a. Right. But it's like, I choose the person like there can be, I often joke with women a lot of times, cause I do a lot of retreats with women. Like there can be 500 men in a room desperate to love me the way that I long to be loved. And I will choose the one mother who's a little bit avoidant and unable to show up for me. And I will make him wrong for

it for the rest of my life. And I will attempt to mold him into that person. Why am I doing that? Right? It's because some part of me is attempting to grapple with the love that I didn't get when I longed for it when I was younger. But I also believe that's like my shadow work. That's my work to sort of come into right relationship with the story I'm telling myself about what that means. Now, to your point, that doesn't mean that it's not still painful in relationship and that like sometimes there doesn't need to be a shift that occurs between us. But again, that energy shifts when I shift, when I take responsibility and I'm in the inquiry around like what I'm telling myself about it. So I'll give an example.

My kid's dad and I are no longer married. He's still like my best friend in the world. But a lot of our relationship dynamics changed when we were no longer in this relationship container. And so what I will do is this thing that I love to call segment intending. A lot of times, like I know that he is like, God bless him if you're listening, Mikey, but he is like the most critical little bugger in the world. And so I will really like send an intention for what I want to bring energetically into our interactions before I go in and connect with him, right? And if he's in a mood and he's really criticizing and you didn't do this right, I will make it my mission to outregulate him and like bring him into the energy of like, I love

you. You can't make me not love you. Like these are the mantras in my head, but I will make it my responsibility to raise the energetic vibration between us. Now that's not always easy. Sometimes I like, you know what, I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'll be right back. And I do it again. And I like segment and bring my energy back. But I think there's power in saying, you know, what if I make it almost like a game to be in this space of the only energy I am in control of is mine. And what I find is the more that it's really hard to be in that space of contempt and when someone is just like adoring you, when someone is like

focused on what is amazing about you. And when I am like, you are unbelievable as a co-parent, I don't understand how I got to be as lucky as to have you. This thing about, you know, Wayne Dyer said, see people as if you treat people as if you see the light in them. And that is all that they see and watch them to rise to meet the way that you see them. And I'm telling you, Jodi, the more that I adore him and I'm grateful for him and I'm showering him with gratitude for all of the things that he does for me, the more that he wants to do those things, the more that he wants to make my life easy. It's like we just have to understand the way that human behavior sort of works. I love that you say that. And I have said this a number of times.

The pushback that I get so much is like, are you saying that I have to condone everything? Right. How do I get away with not getting walked over? Or, um, you know, I accept that kind of behavior. Like I, I often say, like, do you understand how magical you are? If you've ever been in love with somebody, if you've ever procreated with somebody, you have such infinite ability to get them back to the best parts of themselves. Not that it's your job. I'm more concerned about you than I'm concerned about them. Okay. Full stop. If you're listening to this, you're my number one priority. I don't even know the people in your life, but if I know this to be true, if we get back to you, you will have infinite power in this

relationship. And I think like, so two things, when you're telling me this story about you and your, your ex-husband, it's like the amount of work you've done internally is exponentially abundantly clear to me. Right. Because to be able to do that takes such strength and such insight and such clarity around just what I bring to the dynamic, because it is always a dynamic. It never happens in isolation. And then secondly, that, that piece around, okay, yes, we got to do our own work first in order to step into this, whatever that sounds like. And it's never an end game, but how much pushback do you get in this space when you say, you know, like just kind of, you got it. Like, just be really nice. Even when they're being assholery ish, be really nice. You know, where people are always like, fuck that he's a dink and he's

destroyed my life. You can't fucking talk to me that way. Like that's usually where we get stuck. Do you, do you see this? Yeah. But, and you know, to me, it's really like the job of affirming that I am a good person and that I am worthy and that I have radical self-forgiveness for my humanity, that's my job. Because so often we're looking for him to do that. We're looking for him to affirm me, to see me, to see all the effort I'm putting in and why I'm a good mother. That's my job. And when I do that for myself, I don't need that for him. Now he'll do it once we get into like right energetic alignment anyway. But to your point, that is the work. And that is the point of the work and understanding no part of me has ever diminished because someone else says so unless they have my buy-in, but that's my choice

to like really like be in the work of that. I heard Caroline May some say something the other day that I was like, God, so powerful. She was saying the most powerful force in the universe is choice. People think it's love. It's not because you have to choose to like find the love moment and like really get clear about like, what are the thoughts that I'm thinking? What else could be true? How can I hold this in a way that makes me feel a little bit more empowered? Um, but when we do that work, everything around us starts to shift. And I, uh, amen. And I think that I would just love to hold some space for the fact that it's never been harder to do that than in this very noisy world. And I think we need to, you know, give ourselves some grace

in this space because what we're as, or, you know, what we talk about often is that when you can get there, even if moment to moment, everything will shift. I promise you that, but it's never been this difficult in this season, I think, because we've never been this disconnected. We've never been surrounded by this much noise. We've never had so many opportunities to not look, right? To be able to sort of like not give anybody the benefit of the doubt, to be busy because we've got social media and we've got, you know, access. People are emailing us. We've got like the, the children are texting us on our watches. We go to bed texting, you know, we, we wake up checking our email before we even pee. There's so much importance in what

you're saying around stillness and presence that we're up against it in this fucking goal. We're up against it because unless we do this on purpose, it will be stolen so easily. Do you think? I think I would agree. And I would say it's never been more critical than it's, it is in this moment, because here's the thing. I think, you know, I think all of these relationship structures and the way that we do life in a lot of ways, these things have been around for a very, very long time. If we look at the history of humanity and the ways that we've interacted with one another, but I feel like they are like, you know, like that thing gets like loudest at the point of like breaking point or like

it's, if you take a fish out of water, it's like thrashing before it dies on dry land. I think there's like these like maybe patriarchal structures or ways of being societally that are dying. And so they're really big right now so that we can have this reckoning. And I believe this is the rise of the feminine principle, which is collaboration, which is in trust in our innate goodness and our nature, which is that it is, you know, we can put down these power over structures and ways of interacting with one another and do that in favor of like the belief that in power with one another, we are more powerful. But, you know, with AI and the ways that right before our eyes, all of these things are changing. And we're sort of in what Eckhart Tolle calls like an evolve or die moment in humanity from

my perspective. And I think it has gotten so big and so loud to wake us up to say like, it's time. Like right now we have to choose to like say, yes, I get it. My uncle thinks differently about me than X, Y, Z. How do I seek to understand his perspective versus making him wrong and shutting him out and making him a demon whatever the story is because if we don't do that right now I think as a human race we are going to become what's the word obsolete I think that like we need to sort of say like no like we gotta find the humanity in our humanness um now because if we don't, I don't know that, you know, I mean,

look at like the feminine principle is so much of like how we save the earth that we're inhabiting. Like if you think about, we are literally destroying mother earth right now because we have become so disconnected from meaning and from our souls. And so, yeah, I think absolutely it's big right now in this moment, but I believe, um, that's sort of like divinely orchestrated to get us to wake up. I, I think that that is so very true. And I, I mean, to your point, I often say to people like, you know, you're just not that good. You know, when people are like this, you know, this organization or my superintendent or my CEO or, or this government, or, you know, this,

like, you know, my, my family, my mom, like, okay, just, I wish you were that good to switch multiple generations of abuse, neglected trauma. I wish you were that good to have input over this government, you know, philosophy in our lifetime. We're, we're, you're just not that good. So the amount of energy it takes to believe that you can alter your narcissistic husband and PS statistically speaking, every ex-husband can't be a narcissist. So let's move on louder for the people in the back. But like, I think that's such an othering of like pathologizing everything, right? Because we don't want to do our own stuff. Could it be, could it be, could it be? And yes, it could be, they could be all of those things and many, many more things. It does not change the fucking fact that if we don't look in here

first, you're the most important person that matters in this process, because if you're not okay, the people you love and you lead and you navigate in this world with won't be either. So tell me all the things that are wrong with the other person. Tell me all the things about how they didn't get it in your mom and your dad. And like, I want to hear all of those things because we need to make space for them. And then we need to figure out how that shows up for us and what we have the ability to shift and what we have the capacity for. And I just, I love how you talk about that because it really is when we drop our shoulders, sink into our chair, this ability to relax the jaw, wiggle the toes, feel your bum, uh, in your chair. Like you can feel your bum if you want,

but it's like feeling your bum in your chair. I never finished that sentence sometimes, you know, I was like, just feel your bum. They're like, okay, in your chair. But the idea is, is, you know, so true. And it's what I love when you say this is that this isn't new. Like this isn't new. This isn't like some radical concept that, you know, nobody's never talked about before. It's like, it's just, it's gotta, it's be in the noise of the world. We've missed the things that matter most. Would you say?

Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's just something in when we are constantly like in depth psychology, there's a way that we talk about like the shadow work is when you're pointing the finger at someone else, there's three fingers pointing back at you. So there's a way that we are like missing my part in this, my blind spots, where that thing shows up in me. And, you know, we do this thing called shadow work. And I think like it's parts work. Like there's a lot of like

ways that people talk about doing this work, but it's really like attempting to be in compassionate relationship with the parts of myself that feel activated by whoever this person is and whatever they are evoking within me in any given moment. And normally it is really hard for me to meet another person any further than I've met myself. But if something someone else is doing or saying is activating to me, my work is to get one so curious about why, but then the next part is like, where does that live in me? And I remember when George Floyd was murdered, I just was so like challenged by the way we were having that conversation in, you know, that I think like this was something new or

that like, you know, white people sit down and get your books out and do some research. And I was like, like, this is alive in all of us. This is our collective shadow being demonstrated to all of us for all of us to look at like, where is there racism within me? Where is there othering of someone who is not like me in me? Because to me, that is like where our empowerment lies. Because if every single person, if our leaders were all taking 100% responsibility for their own shadow work and the way they were showing up, can you imagine the ripple that would create the world? But as long as I need someone else to go first, there's no change. There's no change. I can only meet another as far as I've met myself. Is that what you just

said? Come on. Listen, humans, today, Logan, like if you, now the book is called the sovereign love, sorry, the sovereign love is what it's called. It is out now. By the time we air this podcast, it will be out in the world. You can get it on every major platform. Tell me what I'm going to find in those pages. Oh my gosh, you are going to find just the larger truth that you've always had everything that you need right within you. I think, you know, I was sharing this Marian Woodman quote yesterday that I'm going to butcher, but it's like how I start off chapter nine in the book. And it was basically until a woman can learn to receive herself, she will cause everyone else around her to reject her, even though her greatest longing is to experience love. Now, I think that's true of all of us.

And that is like the feminine within all of us until we can learn to receive ourselves, we will push the world away. We will sort of like sabotage and create chaos in all of our relationships and the world around us. But I believe our work is to understand that we are always held. We are always like in the dance with the divine and sort of like the great unfolding of this life if we choose to see it this way. And I think in every moment, we can sort of say like either why is this happening to me or this shouldn't be happening and sort of in the resistance or how has this come to support me in becoming who I am meant to become? And, you know, if we think of this as a life school, it's all the curriculum.

It's all teaching me something about me that I'm meant to understand. But it becomes like a really conscious choice to see the light, to see this life that way. And so hopefully this book is a little bit of a guidebook relationally on how we continuously bring ourselves back into that awareness. And, you know, people ask me all the time, how do I do the work? And I would say sovereign love is where you start to do the work. It's really this place that will just, I, my sense is, you know, ask, be curious about those things. You don't have to change a single thing in this moment. You don't have to be right or wrong or indifferent, but when we start to be

curious and Denae will guide some of those questions, those thoughts about, wow, why, how come with this person? I mean, you know, when we think about those things, how come I was never like this before with my husband? Cause relationship, relationships change as we grow and become different things. Older people, parents, we take on more jobs. Our relationships with other people will change too, just because they were once your partner, you know, they, things change as we evolve. And so being curious is I think the answer to all of those things. And I think that's the question I get the lot, the most in therapy, right? Is like, how do I do that work? And I think

your book is going to be the place where we land to start to really have those conversations that are age old, but so critical. And so I cannot wait to get my copy. Like, come on, what are we doing to celebrate? Like the launch of book day, what does that look like? What are we doing? I mean, that's a really, you know, that's where my Capricorn comes in. I'm like, I don't know, doing some work. Are we supposed to do something? Like, are we, I'm like, I don't know, are we celebrating? Are we like getting back to business with the next thing? But I, you know, I feel like, like my friends, Vanessa and John, who you met are like, no, we're going to like stop and have a little party. And that's a lot of times my growing edge

is like, no, you know, we can rest and celebrate. And that is me, you know, dropping into my feminine a little bit more and like, no, I get to play. I get to enjoy the fruits of all of the, you know, the work and the becoming. But I just, I want to say thank you to you, Jodi. You're such an expander. As I was watching you in Vancouver, I was like, God, this woman and the way she walks in her power is just so unbelievably inspiring to me and the type of woman that I want to be. So thank you for the way you're showing up and leading in the world. It truly is. It's something to behold and really inspiring to the rest of us. You're amazing. I'm so grateful our paths crossed. And I mean this so sincerely when I say that first podcast, I was like, wow, she's something special. And when we got to be in that,

in that room together, you know, we talked a little bit about, you know, those conferences, I know we're going to end up there together someday because I just, I just think that this way of speaking of operating, you know, and I don't want to write the whole, but, but I would say it's difficult for so many people, particularly in a conservative nature, or I would say, you know, and I don't want to write the whole, but, but I would say it's difficult for so many people, particularly in a conservative nature, or I would say, you know, this idea where we're really into religion, um, versus that shift into spirituality. We're, we're really one very interesting generation away from that. And I just, I just love your work and being able to guide people home to this place of knowing that is in all of us. And so I'm so grateful for you. I know

this isn't the last time we get to chat and I cannot wait to read that book. And I, everything in the show notes we're going to have where you can connect to Danae. Are you, and you have a full thriving practice in LA, is this true? I do. I'm, you know, I'm moving a little bit away from so much of the work in practice and doing a little bit more group work because I love that. And I think it's really potent to see one another and how we heal in fellowship. But yeah, I am still seeing a few people in LA. Well, find her there if you're anywhere there. And in the meantime, thank you so much.

I can't wait to follow up. And I hope that you can sink into all of these words. Read this book. I can't wait to talk about, you know, more of these things on, uh, on this platform. So stay tuned. And in the meantime, take care of each other, take care of yourself, most importantly. And, um, I can't wait to meet you right back here again next week. The Everyone Comes From Somewhere podcast is produced by the incredibly talented and handsome team at snack labs mr brian siever mr taylor mcgilvery and the infamous jeremy saunders the soundtracks that you

hear at the beginning of every episode were created by donovan morgan our executive producer is Marty Piller. Our PR big shooters are Des Veneau and Barry Cohen. Our agent, my manager, Jeff Lowness from the Talent Bureau. And emotional support, of course, is provided by, relatively speaking, our children. For the record, I am a registered clinical psychologist in Alberta, Canada. The content created and produced in this show is not intended as specific therapeutic advice. The intention of this podcast is to provide information, resources, education, and maybe even a little bit of hope. you