Unlonely with Dr. Jody Carrington - That 6 Months; Lasts a Lifetime: Mark Meincke

Episode Date: November 16, 2023

Army Veteran, creator of Operation Tango Romeo, the trauma recovery podcast. Award-winning author of "Why Not Me" the keys to unlock your power and release your potentialIn this episode, Dr. Jody has a very raw, deep conversation with Mark Meincke about his life's journey through molestation, rape and PTSD after serving in the army. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Let's start here, where I think the answer begins for everything and everybody, in the place of acknowledgement. Indigenous peoples in this country have taught me the most about what acknowledgement truly means. So everything that I've created for you happened here on Treaty 7 land, which is now known as the center part of the province of Alberta. It is home to the Blackfoot Confederacy, made up of the Siksika, the Kainai, the Pikani, the Tatina First Nation, the Stony Nakota First Nation, and the Métis Nation Region 3. It is always my honor, my privilege mostly, to raise my babies on this land where so much sacrifice was made and to build a community, invite a community in, talk about hard things as we together learn and unlearn about the most important things, that we were never meant to do any of this alone. All right. Oh my goodness, friends. Welcome back. Welcome in to the Everyone Comes From Somewhere podcast. I am so grateful that you are back here again. And if this is your first time,

buckle up because do I got a guest for you today? I've been on this fellow's podcast quite some time ago. And in some of the favorite work that I get to do, if I could sort of pick two groups of people, it would be first responders and teachers. Because I think most importantly, first responders spend a lot of time walking people home. And one of the only reasons we need the services of first responders often is because somebody is in a dysregulated state. And this guest, Mark Menke, who you get to sit with today, is just that. He's an Army veteran, a creator of Operation Tango Romeo, the trauma recovery podcast, an award-winning author of Why Not Me? The Keys to Unlock Your Power and Release Your Potential. We have had many conversations around PTSD and what that looks like and how it can bust apart families and systems and, you know, what organizations who employ first responders maybe need to be responsible for. And I'm, Mark, I'm so excited you're here. And as you know, this podcast for me is all about where

you came from. Because I know to the core of me that we're way more alike than we are different. And maybe most importantly, the difference between empathy and judgment often lies in understanding where another comes from. So tell me, Mark Menke, where would we start with you? Where have you came from? I came out of the generosity of my biological mother who gave me up for adoption. Ooh, right out of the gate, Manky. Let's do this. I never thought about it before, you know, so I've never really thought about it. But because what an incredibly generous act to know that you can't take care of this

oncoming baby yourself, like you just can't. And so instead of trying to do it anyway, knowing that it's not going to be a good ride to put that child in the care of somebody else. That's it's a hell of a thing. Do you know much about your early days? Well, just the basics. I mean, both my sister and I are both adopted, both from, we both have different genetic lineage.

So she was adopted two years after me. But I was adopted, I was just a couple of weeks old and what I found out many many years later because I found my birth mother when I was about 31 I think and she told me that she held me every day for two weeks before they took me away so we wonder why I have abandonment issues well it's so interesting right because our like our, like our, our body keeps the score. There's so, so there's so much about that. So you, you got, you got adopted. Um, and so tell me about that. Did you know right away that you were adopted? Was that, is that a secret or was there a time where you found that out? I was lucky. My parents did it right. They didn't do

everything right, but I think they did this part right. So before I could ever, there was never that moment where I was told it was like, I'm a baby and, and it was just part of the conversation. Like how's my little adopted baby? How's my little adopted boy doing? Like when I was still goo goo gaga. So there was, there was no, what do you mean I'm adopted? Wow. That moment never happened. And then I was always curious, always curious, and always wanted to look at the adoption papers, which were super restricted, you know, in the 70s and 80s. Like there was bugger all for information on it. But my sister never gave a shit. She never looked at once, doesn't want to talk about it, doesn't want to know a damn thing about it. But my sister never gave a shit. She never looked at once, doesn't want to talk about it,

doesn't want to know a damn thing about it. And I was like, these are my parents and that's it. I'm like, oh yeah, but what, who do I look like? Who do I look like? And so I was always curious. And then the adoption records over the years, they opened up and opened up and opened up. That's how my sister found us. Yeah. Yeah. And like 2000, 2001, when I got serious about it and I started making a god awful amount of phone calls, I just turned into Inspector Clouseau. I found somebody called a search angel.

And the search angel are these volunteers that know how to do this kind of thing. And I met him at the archives, which is like the museum in Edmonton. And so there's some archives place and we found my aunt, but we couldn't tell from like this line of evidence. But it was the first, oh my God, I have a name. And I thought that she was the birth mother. I thought this is the candidate. So I start hunting down Jill Galt until I flip and found her through an ex-husband in the Queen Charlotte Islands.

And then I had a conversation with them and he's like, wait a second, you're after the wrong one. That ain't Jill. It's your sister Dallas that gave that kid up. I'm like, oh, tell me more about that. And then it was a short run after that and narrowed it down until I knew I had the phone number. Amazing. And I was at work when I did this. And everybody knew what I was doing because I was on this order desk. So I was just waiting for my phone to ring. And after my phone rings, I know I got 20 minutes

of nothing, you know, before it rings again. And because it's on a queue. So everybody knew what I was up to. Then I popped up and like to tell the whole call center founder, it was like, holy shit, what are you going to do? Oh, I'm going to call her before I chicken out. So I did. And I called her and I pretended to be like a third person, like an investigator or whatever. And she was all like, I was a telephone solicitor or something like, who the hell is this? You know? And I said, well, my name is Mark and my client was born May 7th, 1970.

Dead silence. And she says, well, you definitely got the right number. I'm like, oh shit. She knew right away that date is in her mind. And so I asked her, well, my client, first and foremost, my client wants you to know that he completely respects your right to not be found. And no, no, no, it's fine. Oh, didn't plan this far ahead. So I said, well, all right, well, how would you like to be contacted? A letter, a phone call, what? And she goes, goes oh a phone call is fine i'm like well shit

uh hi dallas it's me and then uh i took the next couple days off work just because i was what like what a mess right uh i was just a mess over the whole thing. But I met her the next day at Tim Hortons in Lacombe. And it was bizarre because, first of all, even pulling into that parking lot, it was like I was driving through water. I was just like, oh, it was so difficult. And then when I walked in, I had the picture and I was looking for the person that was in my mind, which is about a 21-year-old woman. Yes. My brain didn't do the math. I was looking for the person that was in my mind, which is about a 21 year old woman. Yes. My brain didn't do the math. I was looking for the picture. So I sat in, um, um, and she was there the whole time, but I didn't know it. So I sat in one and I'm just looking around and looking around and not

finding, and I'm thinking, shit, she's late. And then, so I text her, I think if texting was even was a thing back then. And, um, and then realized, Oh, she said, Oh, right. She's not 21. Wow. Amazing. How did you know you just, how all of that computes in that moment? Wow. But that's, um, uh, just accounts for so much of what a person is, you know, is that, um, that, that genetic link and the wonder and, uh, like, who am I, what is my heritage? You know, is that, um, that, that genetic link and the wonder and, uh, like, who am I, what is my heritage? You know, like, I don't know. Do you know anything about your biological father? Tell you all fair, but, um, uh, the, the, the truth of that, but, um, the, the long and the short of it is that I have no actionable information. I even did a 23 and me, and there's nothing on that side of the ledger, all kinds on,

on the, on the maternal side, but zero on the paternal side. So I don't even have a breadcrumb to follow. Wow. But you have Dallas. And so then siblings as well. Did you find that out? One half brother. Yeah.

And we're, we're friends to this day. I stood for him at his wedding a year or two ago. No, that's amazing. Yeah, it was so good. And I got to stand for him. And he's three years younger than me. And he's just started a family. I'm like, oh, dude, you're nuts.

So, okay. So tell me this. So you were raised in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada by this adoptive family and you have a sister and you grew up in this community. What happens? What's the story here? How do we get into the army? Well, like a lot of people, I didn't of course know it at the time, but like a lot of people, people with high ACEs scores, and for our audience, adverse childhood events, so childhood trauma. People with really high ACEs scores tend to end up as first responders or military. And there's a direct correlation between the higher the ACEs score, the type of trade that you take.

So the more high risk, like infantry, like I was, tend to have higher ACEs scores. If you go into special forces, which I was not, ACE scores, again, higher. There's a direct correlation. And so I ended up in the Army probably in no small degree because of childhood. Sexually molested from the age of 7 to 12, which I didn't even know was trauma. I didn't even know that that was trauma or that, you know, at the time that how that was affecting me and how it completely changed my life. I had no idea. Mark. And can you tell me that story real quick? Was that by somebody you knew? A family member. Yeah. A male family member who was a few years older than

me. And because my dad had a good heart, but he had no ability to be a dad, you know, he was a provider and, but I was raised by wolves. I raised myself, you know, there was no, there's no guidance at all. There's no, uh, strong. Um, so when there was an older family member who was a male, um, basically took the role of father figure to me, you know, the role of mentor, the role of, so whatever this guy said was the truth as far as I was concerned, you know, and, and he was my guide into how to be a grownup. Wow. And so when he told me that, uh, uh, all the things that a groomer tells a kid, uh, the things that are predator, I, I was like, well, that sounds pretty fricking weird, buddy,

but, uh, all right, I guess that's the plan. I don't have a script that would say otherwise. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I had no counterbalance. Yes. So I, I was, uh, I was, oh, easy pickings for predator, easy pickings. Do you remember the, the point, Mark, in your life where you realized that this was horrific? That this wasn't normal? Mostly when I had my kids, you know? Really? Not until then? Yeah. I mean, I always knew that, you know, it was uncomfortable.

But all the shame, right? So you don't talk to anybody. I told freaking nobody. Not my best friend, nobody. What am I? I'm 53. So the first person I told was my second wife after we'd been together for about eight years. Your second wife?

Yeah. So your first wife did not know? No, never told her. Never told anybody. That's unbelievable to me. Amazing. It's not unbelievable. I mean, this happens all the time, but I'm so... It's all the questions that come up. It's like, you know, especially with all the stigma questions, especially being kind of an alpha male, most people would suggest I am. And it's like, well, are you gay? Well, now I don't care if somebody thinks I'm gay.

Like, that's what doesn't bother me the slightest. You know, but Jesus in the 80s, you sure didn't want that to be anywhere near you. Yes. You know? Yes. Especially. And so this happens to you. Does anybody ever reprimand?

Does this ever become, it obviously doesn't come to light in your family no well the parent of this person uh actually caught us once okay like red-handed pants down literally like uh getting caught with your pants down and so i couldn't have been more than seven uh eight years old you know yeah caught us. And, and then the, um, uh, perpetrator came up with some bizarre half-baked, uh, excuse and, uh, it was just never, it was never spoken of again. Wow. You know, so, so I, I really had no way to know if it's okay, if it's not okay, is this normal? The way it was presented to me is that this is the very special types of relationship. And that's why you can't tell anybody because, you know, this is like a secret society kind of thing, you know, secret handshake kind of deal. And that's what makes it so special, you know, because we have this very, very special relationship, which, of course, I was yearning for more than anything because I had zero with my dad.

Right. Oh, my heart. And you said it sort of then stopped at 12. What happened? Yeah, I was, well, puberty, you know, and it's like starting to realize and just be a bit less impressionable. And it's like, and I remember when I said, you know, I think we're too old for this. And he just backed right off and said, yeah, you're probably right. And then that was it. I remember when I put an end to it and that was that.

And then it was just, it remember the, like the, when I put an end to it and that was that, and then it was just, it just never happened again. Fascinating. And how did that, how did that kid make sense of that? How did that little boy make sense of that? Not, not the perpetrator, you, I mean. I didn't, you know, it was just, I just thought that this was just part of, I didn't know what to think of it, you know? And of just, I just thought that this was just part of, I didn't know what

to think of it, you know? And of course, so, but my God, the effects after, I mean, I remember being about 18 and being, I don't like the term homophobe because it's like, well, I'm not scared. It's like homo hate. And, and it was amplified because when I was 17, I was raped by a friend of mine. Or I thought he was a friend. And so you put those two together. It was the molestation that kind of paved the path for the rape. Yes. Yes.

You know? And it was kind of like it just happened all over again. It was the same sort of like, here's the person that is my, uh, um, my key to the kingdom is because this is the cool kid and I'm not the cool kid. Uh, you know, I'm the one that gets picked on and I'm weird and, and all these things, but you're the cool kid who's accepted. So by having a relationship with you, I'm, then I get to be in the cool crowd by By proxy. Yeah. By proxy. Yeah. And, uh, so the, you know, so you put those both together, uh, molested as a kid, then, then raped at about 17 ish. Um, man, I had some questions like, am I gay? Yeah. Yes. You know,

like, I don't think I am, but like, well, like well what is this or like am i a bad person or like what's wrong with me and uh that just affects everything so if you if you fast forward to me being a young soldier young and eight pack and and super fit and being in the third battalion which was the super duper fit battalion in victoria you know uh then the womanizing right one just because i could but but mostly because like i gotta prove to myself that i'm a man that i'm not gay and and that i'm a man and what better way than to start racking up the numbers and which? And then the self-loathing that comes after that, because you know it's wrong, but it's just the worst kind of addiction because it's, where else am I going to get the payoff that I'm worth something, that I'm good, that I'm a man,

I'm desirable by women, that I like women, but it, but, but it's, it was all fueled by that history. All of it. My gosh, how much work you've done to figure out that story and unravel that, that, that tale that is just so, I think a core of you, obviously. Right. And, and so help me understand then. So into your, the decision to join the army, was that any, do you remember how that happened? Were you just sort of like, this is, this is going to give me a place to land? Well, I, I remember you and I disagreed on something on ADD and PTSD being the same or similar. Maybe it's part of the spectrum, but there's got to be some sort of relationship with it, right? The, the, the ADHD that I experienced as a child was so off the freaking charts.

Like, there was nothing you could do. I remember my mom trying to get me to study and would clear everything off the table, like, because anything would catch my attention. Anything, right? I needed to be in a vacuum bubble for, for, for me to, um, to stay focused on anything. I didn't know that was a trauma response, you know, uh, between my relationship with my dad and being batted around on a fairly regular basis and all the other stuff, you know, sexual trauma, your body could not relax. Couldn't do it. Yeah. Nor should it.

Yeah. And all the fights I used to get in. My God, I was in a lot of, that was the first little bit of, oh, I'm good at something. Oh, here's my power. I found my power. Yeah. Hey, I could tell somebody no with my fists. Great.

You know, and even though I was little, boy, I was in a lot of fights. And before I ever learned how to fight, it was all just raw aggression and determination would win. It's all I needed. Zero skill. Yeah. Just swinging. But you put all that together and all that violence growing up, because it was my only survival mechanism to get people to stop was that violence. I had no ability to perform in school. So I failed grade four. I failed grade nine.

And I didn't graduate till just after my 20th birthday. Wow. You know, and that's why I joined the army. What perseverance. I mean, this kid's amazing to me. Like I already have such an image of this little guy who's just like relentless, right? The world is buzzing around his body. He cannot even focus for more than 30 seconds because if he does slow down, the trauma just takes over. And here he does somehow get through this in his, at 20, huh? He gets this and then says, okay, I need, here's my next stop. Obviously, this is where I'm going to go. Yeah. Well, I wanted to be a medic. And when I got out of the army, so I was always a sensitive kid, but I wanted not to poke holes in people. I didn't

want to hurt anybody. I wanted to patch them up. I wanted to be the rescuer, you know? Yeah. And that was very firmly what I wanted to do. Because I had a hint when I did for Zed 30, we did the first aid. Yes. And I was good at it. I was like, what do you mean I'm at the top of the class? That doesn't happen for me. The hell is this? Yes. And so I thought, okay, cool. I want to be a medic. And when I got out of high school, I went, whoops, I screwed everything up. You know, I got the bare minimum marks to get out of high school.

So I got to do something and I got to do something that matters. Joining the army. Because I don't know what that's going to be like, but it's a three-year commitment. And no matter what, when I'm done that three years, I'll be in a better position in my life and have done something respectful, respectable. So I, uh, I go through the process to join as a medic. I had a going away party once I had my ship out date. And then I thought, you know, I haven't heard from these guys and it's getting pretty close. So I go to a Canada place in Edmonton and I go, Hey, Hey, there's the guy. Hey guy, you know, uh, haven't

heard from you. And he looked at me like, Oh, you, you misunderstood. What, what, what, what are you talking about? We said, Oh, you misunderstood. Uh, you competed for the position of medic, but you didn't get it. You're going nowhere. And I've never had a stronger feeling in my life. First, I sank into my boots. Like I felt myself turn into a puddle and I splashed on the floor. And then as I kind of collected myself and I was like anybody looking would have seen, I was completely shell shocked. I had the going away party. What am I supposed to do now? So I said to him, and the Gulf War had just broken out. And I said to him, well, I'm going.

So what else you got? Well, news to a recruiter's ears, you know, like music to a recruiter's ears. And he goes, well, we got the infantry. I said, fine, I'll take it. What is it? Wow. Are you kidding me mark yeah and then he asked me a couple of questions i asked him a couple of questions hey do you like camping and i'm like uh and actually what really put it over for me is looking at the mannequins uh on i can just like i'm in the room as i'm saying this looking at the mannequins on

the left and the ones that are like all like dressed for battle. And I said, is that, that one there, is that the infantry? And he goes, yeah, yeah. It's like a whole lot of walking around in the woods and, and like really, really long walks and shooting guns and stuff. And I said, that's the hard one, right? He goes, yeah, that's the hardest thing you can do. And then I thought about it for about three seconds and went, then that's what I want.

I'm going to test myself. I want to see if I can do it. Are you kidding me? And that was it. So my career decided in under 60 seconds or less. New career path. Here I am in the infantry. No conversation with anybody else, but I am in.

Oh my God. Okay. So then what was the next step? Well, basic training where I started to realize the gravity of my decision. My first night there, I just remember blink, blink, blink. Oh my God. Three years. What have I done? Yes. What have I done? And, and everybody was snoring. And then I really couldn't fall asleep. So I was sure I was the last one just going blink, blink three years. What have I done? And, and going through the 10 weeks of basic, uh, and not hearing other people going, so you went infantry, huh? Are you crazy? You're like shit. Yes. Yeah. And then battle school was really, really, really, really, really tough because your job is to kill. You know, we like to use platitudes and euphemisms, but that's the job. And I wanted to do the opposite. I didn't want

to put holes in them. I wanted to patch up the holes. You know, I didn't want to hurt nobody. And now I've got to do this emotional shift to being a killer. And that pretty much destroyed me. Like I already didn't have any sort of sense of self or who I was. I had no idea. So that really made me a wreck, but I made it through. We ended up graduating the smallest course in the history of my regiment. 18 of us started, five of us graduated. So it was like, and I was bottom of the five, I'm sure, but I made it. Yeah, you did. You know, and then off to the third battalion, which is the toughest of the three battalions. If I had gone to the first or the second, I probably would have had an okay go.

But I didn't. I went to the Hollywood battalion, to the third, which was the hardest, the toughest, the most aggressive. And so that shift still took another couple of years before I kind of found my footing. And then got transferred to Calgary, which was the first battalion. And I was like, oh, my footing, you know, and, and then, uh, got transferred to Calgary, which was the first battalion. And I was like, Oh, look, normal people. Like I like these people. And, um, and then I could fit in easier. And then I was, then I was, uh, my first two years, I don't think I was ever considered a good soldier, but my, um, but I was just getting by, but my last two, a couple of years, it was about five years in total.

The last half, back half of it, I was generally considered to be a pretty good soldier. And that's when I went to war. And as a peacekeeper in Croatia in 94. And that's, talk about pivotal. That's six months, 29 years ago. That sticks with you forever. I can see, I can see it on your face. Yeah. You can feel it in this moment. Hey. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so you were over there for six, six, six months.

Yeah. That's the, that's the usual tour. Okay. Sometimes there's nine monthers. Um, there's a, there's a few exceptions and, and there were people back then that were doing double tours, which is too much, way too much, but, but none of them survived. Anybody that did a double tour either ended up in an asylum, suicide or drank themselves to death. The holidays are coming and nobody wants to deal with seasonal bugs making their way through the family. That's where Maple comes in. No more scrambling for open clinics during holiday festivities. One membership covers the whole family, making it a gift that keeps on giving this season.

And with over a million five-star reviews, Canadians are loving it. Don't let sickness slow down your season. Download the Maple app today. See a real doctor on your phone in minutes, 24-7. Get Maple. Get well. Sooner. deeper when you came back from that tour, what, what was the next steps for you? What, what happened then? Had you, had you been married at this point? No, no. I had a girlfriend waiting for me back home, uh, who was absolutely nuts. Yep. Got it. She was absolutely nuts. But, um, so that didn't last long. Cause of course I didn't,

nobody was talking about PTSD then. Okay. You know, nobody was talking about it. Nobody knew what it was. And, um, but there was a shift in me while I was there because there were so many incidents. Um, I'm the only guy I know that hit a trip wire and survived, you know, as just one of the many, many, many, many, many things that happened. Um, I was what they call a shit magnet. So like, uh, I had an unusual amount of events and um that

coupled in with the horrific leadership which is really worse than the bombs and the bullets i didn't mind the bullets i didn't mind the bombs that part was fun but it was being treated like crap by your own people that was the hard part that was the the betrayal of it. And, and there's people 30 years later and you can't, they can't start talking about it without getting angry. All the, and they're all like all of my friends, you know, almost without exception. It's the same thing. They start talking about that tour and how we were treated and they get angry. It was, it was so bad. Unbelievable. And just a group of people who were so hurt and destroyed themselves, trying to lead a bunch of impressional people, you know, humans there

with the intention to do something well, peacekeep. And there was no potential because there was no peace even within your own unit. Is that fair? I would say so. Like the, the greatest struggle, we weren't worried about, um, getting shot or blown up so much, even though some guys did like Tom Anderson lost his legs, uh, and an eyeball, um, with a mind blast, uh, is felt Mark is felt lost his life. I, I, I watched that event happen. Um, well at the end of it i saw the helicopter come in and then taken off the helicopter just like a scene out of mash my formerly favorite show um you know so i've there was a lot that happened like just so much um i forget what the question was now yeah no me too actually but i but when you came back, then that you were in this place where nobody even talked about it.

So it must have just felt like you were completely out of your own body. Well, the symptoms of PTSD started showing up then. I would have screaming matches over a game of Risk. My buddy and Mike Knight were still dear friends to this day but uh it was him i was screaming at sorry mike and and we're just playing a game of risk you know um taking over germany or the russia or something and um like i still remember that game and what he said to me you know about being a grownup and, um, but it was times like that and we're like, okay, there's a problem or taking a, tearing off at Carlo Magnifico, uh,

threatening to grab him by the throat. You know, I was like, well, sorry, sorry, buddy. Sorry about that. Yeah. And, um, intensity of emotion, right? Because your body is running so high all the time that it doesn't take very much and you're fucking doing things that you can't even believe. And I would like to think that in today's world, in today's military, if somebody saw outbursts like that, they'd know enough to go put their hand on that guy's shoulder and go, come with me. We're going for a walk. We're going to talk to somebody. But nobody knew that, right?, Mark's just being an asshole, which I, which I was, but I couldn't help it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was so out of the volition that you had control

over in that moment. Right. Yeah. And so you get married, you have children and how, how do you manage the PTSD, the, the, the trauma, the ADHD, the, all of these symptoms that are living in your body i wish i did then it's you know the first marriage might have had a hope of surviving but part of ptsd is that it's blinding it turns off your self-awareness which turns off your situational awareness and not situational it turns up the situational awareness as far as threats and whatnot but um understanding it's where equine therapy is so fantastic you start to understand your own energy and how it affects your blast radius like the circle around you it's like radiation off a cell phone like you might not be able to see it but it's there and um uh the the more dysregulated you are, the bigger your blast radius, like the, the more people

you're affecting and you don't know it. Uh, so myself, just like so many others, I thought everybody else was their problem. You know, uh, like why you got to be like this? Why you got to be like that? Like, why aren't you fitting in my box? Cause you know, I'm the center of the universe. So you should conform to what I want. And it turns into a form of narcissism, really, where, you know, the world should go the way I think the world should go. And some of that is just military deprogramming. You know, that's a chunk of it. The rest is trauma, where you just don't have the ability to regulate.

So if there's a challenge, if there's something that's upsetting or what you perceive as an insult, which is an existential threat, like an insult is perceived as a physical threat. Everything is heightened. Everything is heightened. Everything is heightened. Everything's a threat because I just came from a world of, if you have a problem, kill it. And that's the programming. If you have a problem, kill it. Or you'll be killed if you don't.

Yeah. Or worse, your friends. Right. So, or worse, your friends. And so it is so difficult. The body doesn't then understand the different situations it's in unless we do the work to get it back there. And that's the big chunk that for so many of our first responder worlds, we still don't have in place. I would like to say that the military is better. I would like to say that our policing organizations or our EMTs are better,

but they're not in so many ways because we still continue to treat our people like shit in training in the hopes that that's going to prepare them for what it's going to feel like on the front lines. And there's no fucking evidence to suggest that's true. And so it becomes really difficult then to how do we navigate from that place of having to be on, on a battlefield, in the front lines, whatever that looks like, to then when you're away from that, letting the body know that it doesn't have to be ready for everything. Is that the trick, that transition piece, would you say? Well, I'm just listening to what's coming to mind, and I don't know,

I'm probably not answering your question, but I'll try, is the importance of a trauma-informed workplace, you know, when, so that people can recognize when somebody is where I was instead of just going, you're an asshole or you're fired, you know, or you're reprimanded or nobody talked to that guy or whatever the deal is. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you don't fit in the box anymore. You're fired. Yeah. Yeah. You know, instead of that. Or ODS or go off. Yeah. Yeah. Recognizing it for what it is and dealing with it.

And because as you know, I mean, just like any injury, the longer you let it go without dealing with it, the worse it gets. So if you can get on it early, great. And there's no better way than in real time through critical stress debriefings or whatever to go, okay, so you just went through something and here's what to expect. If you see this, this, or this over the next few months, because a lot of times it sits for two, three months before it starts to manifest. If you start to see these changes over the next six to 12 months, come back. We got to

talk. Yeah. Or better yet, doing a checkup with that person. Hey, it's been three months since that horrible thing. Has any of this changed in your behaviors? Yeah. Have you noticed this? Have you noticed that? And then do every three months, keep checking. Absolutely. And it doesn't even actually need to be a horrible thing. I think when you are, one of the things that I like to talk the most about to people who put themselves in very dysregulated positions, like ER physicians and nurses, when we would talk about, you know, medics and, um, corrections officers, the expectation when you get into this business is that you will step into some very heightened situations. That's actually the request of you doing this work. If you're a police officer, for example, if you're

going to the front lines, there is rarely an experience in the run of a week where you won't get in a position of inducing, of encoding something in terror. Because it should happen. You should be in a heightened state of arousal because you're at the scene of an NBA or you watch somebody get hurt or that you've been called to a domestic. The job of your body is to actually go into that heightened state so that you can act and protect or do whatever your job is. The question isn't about the work that we're asking you to do. It's what we do after that becomes the issue because we are wired to handle unbelievable things. We are just not wired to be able to hold onto that shit alone.

Somebody has to walk you back home through that process. And when the culture says, when the training says, when the system is not prepared to be trauma, not just informed, but trauma integrated in its practice, it becomes very difficult because so many of those experiences, benign or horrifically 9-1-1 traumatic, warlike traumatic, there's no place to be walked back home. And unless we do that on purpose and repeatedly, and it's never a one-shot deal, as you said, it's that sort of constant, how do we start to build into the culture, that sense of, yes, the normalcy around, okay, checking in. And not just because we're checking a box, but because we've created a culture around that would say, yeah, fuck, I'm not sleeping. And I don't know what it is about this ladybugs these days, but they're fucking me up.

Okay, let's figure that out a little bit, right? And do you have a safe place to land where we can do that, right? And do you build that into the organization where it's not just somebody that you have to go sit? But it's actually like, we have the sense of what we do with that. I've seen with organizations from conversations I've had with colonels and RCMP members is that

what I've gleaned from it is that they're starting to say the right thing. It's like, oh, we're a soft place to land, but in actual practice, not so much. Yeah. The transition is a slow one. It's a slow one. RCMP seems to be the, one of the worst offenders from what I've seen from the conversations I've had. Um, the military has gotten a lot better though, which is good. There's progress and I'm happy with progress, but the RCMP is still a suck it up buttercup. Well, you've had your three months off. What's let's go. You're done. Let's get back to work. Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's just so much work to do. And I say this all the time,

you know, when I get the honor of working with a police organization where I just say, I don't hold out the delusion that we'll be able to switch this overnight or in my lifetime. But we are now having conversations like never could have been had even five years ago. And that's what I hold on to, right? Is how do we keep, you know, doing things like, I mean, tell me about your podcast. So why did you start that? Operation Romeo, is that?

Tango Romeo stands for trauma recovery. Come on, Jodi. It's not that hard. Tango Romeo. God damn it. I'm had a little bit of that. Okay. All right.

So when, why, how did that come about? So the, I already had a show the manky show podcast that i did for about 65 episodes and i kept straying into this lane anyway so i had both shows for a little bit but how tango romeo came to be is right at the beginning of my healing journey which was um thanks to my wife because i was down on one knee yelling at my eight-year-old, what's wrong with you? Why are you spilling crumbs on the floor? And then she put her hand on my shoulder and said, Mark, they're just crumbs, buddy. We can clean them up. Only she didn't say buddy. She probably said sweetheart. And then I realized because I watched his face

melt. I watched my kid break and I went, Oh Christ. Cause we'd already up to that point. We've been trying like nine ways to Sunday of having me not be an asshole at the kitchen table and everything we tried failed. But we were addressing it. Cause I was like, okay, why do I have anxiety over the fricking moon for my kids to eat their vegetables at the table and, and soldiers, what the hell's going on? So I finally made the call, picked up that thousand pound

telephone and made the call. And, uh, Oh my God, it was so brutal. It was so hard to do, but, um, Oh, horrible, but I did it. And then ended up, it was actually the Royal Canadian Legion, um, who's really can be hit and miss, but in this case, they were awesome. And they helped me out and they kind of started the claim. I'm like, Oh, I'm not looking for money. You know, like a lot of us do. And it's like, dude, just shut up and do what we tell you. Okay. I can do that. And, uh, we just started the journey journey but it still took me over two years before i accepted the diagnosis of stress injury but um there was a 10-month waiting list between like me hopping into the system and doing this weird 10-week useless thing um and seeing a therapist it was a 10-month gap like 10 months come on i was reaching out because i'm critical here yeah you know you

can't tell it's like waiting in an er for 10 months you know it's like yeah 10 hours is pretty bad but 10 months is that don't work and um so a guy says hey come over here and his name was john senior and he was running um uh peer support groups at the time. And I had no interest, Jodi. I don't want to sing Kumbaya. I don't want to hold hands and cry with each other. Fuck off. You know, like I had no interest, but I know he's persuasive. And I went and then I went again and then I went and then I kept going and then I started to see the value. And then I started to see then I went and then I kept going and then I started to see the value. And then I started to see myself in others and they saw themselves in me. And then I started to realize that I really didn't know what I didn't know.

And a year later, I was running the damn group. Yes. And that was the birth of the show, because when I was running the group, I realized like, man, there's people driving from British Columbia from damn near Saskatchewan once every two weeks to sit in this group for a couple of hours. Like this is powerful. Like they wouldn't be making the drive if this wasn't powerful. Yeah.

So I thought, well, how wrong is it of me to hoard this little gem just to our tiny little group of half a dozen? You know, I've got to scale this. I've got to make it more accessible. So that was the birth of Operation Tango Romeo, which I thought would maybe, maybe be 30, 40 episodes. And then what more could there possibly be to talk about after that? And then it grew.

It grew into from Peer Support uh which is the first 10 episodes really uh from that into advocate well advocacy at the end it's turned into that now um as part of the scope but i started finding people like you experts to have and you came on early like i was i had to really achieve nothing, but you were kind enough to come on my show anyway. And thank you so much for that. A couple of times you've been on, but it's just grown and grown and grown. Even had the premiere of Alberta on. I was like, Holy smokes, look at me.

And, and it just has, has grown. I'm at 308 or 309 episodes now. And it's still well, I'm interested in ketamine. Okay, I've covered this a few times. Here you go. I'm interested in psilocybin. Here you go. I'm interested in service dogs. Here you go.

Here's what they are. Here's what they're not. Here's what to accept. Here's the pros. Here's the cons. Here's what works. Here's what doesn't. Here's who's good.

Here's who sucks. And like so many in this space, which is what I really loved about you is that when there are no resources, you create them. And, you know, you and I have talked about this, I think even off the air a little bit, you know, about how sometimes that scares me, right? Because when we're in this place of being so wounded and we just want, we, we haven't found any place to land. So we're just going to fucking make one. And then we're in this place of like, we don't have a fucking clue, but just let's all come together and be fucking sad together. And so I'm in this place of like, we don't have a fucking clue, but just let's all come

together and be fucking sad together. And so I'm like, OK, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, just a second. But what I love so much about the podcast and the group and the safety ness that you create in bringing resources to people, it's not like here's the answer. Do these things. Here's the things that everybody's talking about in this space, because we're so desperate to figure out how to fucking calm our bodies down because we've lost the best parts of ourselves. We've lost access to the best parts of ourselves.

And I think that's sort of the purpose, obviously, you know, for your podcast but certainly for mine as well is how do we find the people who have the resources, the stories, where either they've journeyed them themselves or they figured out some way to get back to the best parts of ourselves. And I think that there's so much in that podcast space that you've done that just allows people to find those resources, to find those stories, the places where they may align with, because it is such a lonely place

in this world of PTSD, isn't it? That's why it's so powerful to tell your story, you know, and it's not just my story that keeps getting told. It's the guests that I have on, and then they tell their story. And what that does for others, that's it. That's the peer support group. That's it. Here's the story. Oh my God, I'm not alone. Oh my God, I'm not crazy. I'm not weak. I'm not broken. This is an injury. And this is how that injury looks. This, these are the signs and symptoms. Oh, okay. I'm not alone. It's that connection. The injury, like to me, the most devastating part of the injury is the disconnection

that trauma creates. Disconnects you from who you are, from who you are. It's such a fucker, it's such a fucker, this trauma, isn't it? Oh, it is so bad because it disconnects you from who you are, from who you are. It's such a fucker. It's such a fucker, this trauma, isn't it? Oh, it is so bad because it disconnects you sometimes from your very environment. Like when I was at one of the, one time that I was at the, just a horrible low point for a couple of years,

I could not recharge my batteries. Like I used to go walk into the mountains and I'm good. I'm fucking good. I do this once every few weeks. I'm good. Then I used to go walk into the mountains and I'm good. I'm fucking good. I do this once every few weeks. I'm good. Then I go, I'd be in the woods for quite some time, days. And I didn't even, I couldn't feel it. I couldn't feel connected to it. And I was just that numbness. Then I was getting concerned. I was like, well, what the hell am i going to do now i'm not recharging the batteries i don't have a refuge right and that was bad but that's what the injury does it disconnects you

from everything relationships um and reality in some ways because you're it twists what you think is real you know that's a threat you're an asshole You're out to get me. No, no, no, they're not. They actually kind of like you and they love you probably. Uh, isn't that amazing. And so what, what now, what is, I mean, how big are the demons today still? I mean, I, because I think this is some of the normalcy of PTSD or of, of anybody's trauma, anxiety, any, you know, mental health issue is that, you know, it really isn't an end game. And this is so debilitating sometimes or deflating for people to hear when I have this conversation with them, you know, about, you know, it is hard to sort of get to the end. But my, I think what I would just want to say clearly, even before you answer this question

is that like, you can find peace and there's moments of you getting back to this place. And once you understand the script to get back there, when your body gets triggered or it takes off in those moments, you now know the way back home. And so can you, can you tell me a little bit about that for you? Where, where are you at today? I will. I'm going to bring you back to peer support though. Cause we used to, there was myself and John senior that would facilitate it. When he had burnout, I took over for a while and now he's doing it again full-time as a company actually. But we used to chuckle because somebody would show up, they'd get healing because connection is what peer support does if it's done right or it can really be bad. But if you do it right and it's a safe place and there's no judgment, then it's, then you're probably doing it right.

And we would evil chuckle when somebody go, okay, yeah, I don't have to come here anymore because I'm good. I'm good. And we'd like, oh, fuck, here we go. Okay, Mr. I'm good. I'll see you in three months when you realize that you're not good. And which every time they'd be back, they're like, I wasn't good. Like, I know you weren't good. You know, like that's, this is what we do. So we will try to warn people about I'm good now. I'm good. I'm good. You know, it's like, oh man, that's the road to hell. And at the same time, while still offering hope,

while still offering hope, right? You're like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. So balance that with the truth of healing happens. Healing happens. Like one thing you don't know, Jodi, that I'll share with you, because I've shared it on the show, is, wait, was it 21? I think it was 21. Yeah. It was July 21, I attempted suicide. And I didn't, did I not see it coming? I did see it coming, but I thought I had it.

I thought I, I thought I had a grip on that monkey and that I wasn't going to let it out of the cage. I'm like, yeah, okay, sure. I think about this all day, every day from waking to sleep and sometimes in my dreams, but, uh, but I'm not actually going to do it. And then overload happened. The death of a close friend who I used to be a caretaker of, um, uh, and then a betrayal from somebody that, uh, was just freaking epic. Like, it was like, well done. That was a gooder. If you're going to betray somebody, that's wow. Well done. And, um, and I was in total overload. So using my tools of trying to deal with it, got on the motorcycle because this is my tool. This is my therapy, right? A little bit of air

wind therapy. And all I did is drive myself to a remote location with no cell service. And I made an attempt with not ever thinking that's what I was going to do. That didn't happen until I was sitting down and trying to regulate because I got this. I got this. I got this. Sitting in the grass in the middle of the mountains, incredibly remote and alone. I got this. I got this. I got this until I didn't. And I took a crack at it and survived. Yay. And there was something about going that far that I haven't had a suicidal thought since now I'm not recommending an attempt please hear this uh yeah I'm not recommending an attempt but um the point is is that I like that

is not there's the occasional intrusive thought but I'm able to swat it away now, but I've been good for the last couple of years. Like good. You know, I don't, it's not a constant intrusive thought. I'm not thinking about it all day, every day. I barely think about it at all. Right. Healing happens and be vigilant. That's the bottom line of that word salad I just gave you. Healing happens and be vigilant. Never let your card down. Don't stop the routines. Don't stop the health with the self-care. Don't stop the growth. Don't stop with the healing fucking ever. Yeah. And isn't that funny, right? It's like, all we want is your body to not to not be vigilant all the time, to, to be relaxed and calm yet at the same time, we're also instructing, right? Don't let your guard down.

It's this sort of oxymoron between healing your body needs to heal and be safe. And what we want you to make sure is that it's, it's also okay if it doesn't the times that it won't, because that trauma in your bones, that visceral sense is a pretty powerful thing. And so being in that safe place on purpose, getting you around the people who are safe, being really convincing to your own body is important. And then really noticing also that you need to keep doing that, that you don't, that doesn't sort of, you don't arrive there. Hey, does that make sense? Yeah. And, and to do that, because again, like as you start to spiral, you don't always know that you're spiraling.

So have one very honest, sober friend to put their hand on your shoulder and go, Hey, uh, been doing your self-care lately? It's kind of like asking, are you off your meds? Yeah, truly. Or where are you at? Or whatever that question is. Haley? It's kind of like asking, are you off your meds? Yeah, truly. Or where are you at? Or whatever that question is. And if you can even establish that, you know, in the time where we are not in a state of crisis, right? Like that's, that's sometimes the most important

thing, right? Is that like, what does that look like when we're not in a state of crisis? And so when I noticed that about you, Mark, what is the, what is the safest way for me to approach that with you? How, how do you want that? Do you want that to come in an email? Do you want that to come in a text? Do you want me to come and pick you up and throw you in the back of my truck? Like what, what is going to be our plan? The third one is a good one, right? Yeah. So yeah, that would get in the van. I'll explain later. Yeah, exactly. Keep your eyes down. Um, but I think it's like it, what is that plan for us? And, and I think that sometimes the conversations that we tend to have with the people we love the most when they are at their low, because we get scared and they get scared, which means we lose access to the best parts of ourselves. But in your best moments, it's like, how do we sort of make the plan for when that's going to happen? Because it probably will. Your body will get you back there, even if you desperately don't want it to. And so if for nothing else, you have a plan. And if you never need to execute it, that's okay, too.

But if you do, and you probably will, you've then at least talked about it. Does that make sense to you? This thing about being trauma-informed, right? Like my battle buddy is my wife. And she'll be like, even though she's dead set against psilocybin mushrooms, they're a real go-to for me. And she's like, it's been a while since you had the mushrooms, isn't it? Like, when was the last time?

Oh, like, I don't know, a year ago? She's like, maybe it's time. Just wondering. Just maybe it's time. Like, oh, are you noticing something? She's like, a little bit. A little bit. They're like, all right, all right, all right.

Oh, my gosh. Okay, so Mark Menke, you are a phenomenal human being. What is next for you? What's on the horizon for the amazingness that is you in this space? Well, the show has reached a cool little breakthrough point. People are starting to call me and say, hey, come over here and be my speaker for this and speaker for that. And I'm like, well, I can't afford the effort. What are you talking about?

We're paying for the tickets. What? You're what? Okay. like what are you talking about we're paying for the tickets what you're what okay so the end of october uh physicians for life is paying like i'm going to ottawa gonna be staying at the delta yay and it's just a 20 minute bit and i got like three or four nights at the delta for a 20 minute bit and like i'm not getting a paycheck but i'm'm getting, I'm getting hotel and flights. I'm like done. I'm in. Oh gosh.

That's amazing. And so do you want to step into the speaker space too? Is that your plan? Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm good at it. You know, like it's easy for me, you know, like if, if there's a little bit of a box you need me to be in, it's like, oh, okay, let's see. I'll just do it like this. Here's my bullet points and like I could just do it.

All I'm doing is telling my story in a bridged format. If you give me a time sequence, I'm going to be, I call it performing, but I got a speaker's gig. I think it's November 14th at River Creek Casino. So that's a pretty big venue. And my sponsor's putting that on and I hope it's a full house. And hopefully we'll pack it full of first responders. I'm really hoping for people in leadership,

like chief of police, fire chief, that kind of thing, because they need to be trauma informed. They need that, right? And so, yeah, I got, even though I'm not looking for it, it's just coming to me and there's more and more of those that are coming. And I think my next step, except with you being the exception, I typically don't like being the guest. You know, I really like being your guest. This is great, uh i typically don't like it that much um but i have to do it and i have to do it more uh that's how you really grow a show is being on

other people's shows so i'm an inch away from the sean ryan show which is like number two in the world right now i had one of his top guests on dallas Alexander, a little while ago. And so it's getting there. It's getting there. Yes, you are doing amazing. You are doing amazing. And it's such an honor to have you here. Where can people find you? Well, Spotify is my favorite, unless you're an Apple person.

One of those, like my wife. One of those Apple people. And Apple Podcast or Apple Music, whichever it is. one of those like my wife one of those apple people in uh apple uh podcast or apple music whichever it is uh that's probably the biggest platform to see the video content um youtube kind of sucks but it's but but a good chunk of it is there to see all of the video contact it's the operation tango romeo facebook page it's all. Okay. So all the video content is on that Facebook page. And yeah, most of the podcast platforms, there's about eight of the big ones, Google, Spotify, Apple. But you know, that's where most people go. Amazing. And I'm going to put all of that in the

show notes for our fellow humans here who want to follow along in your journey, because it's just remarkable. You are making so much impact in this space that I think is just so overdue for a hero just like you. So thank you for being here today to this community. I know you're going to fall in love with this guy as much as I do. And I can't wait to see you again here next week. Take care of each other. I'm a registered clinical psychologist here in beautiful Alberta, Canada. The content created and produced in this show is not intended as specific therapeutic advice.

The intention of this podcast is to provide information, resources, some education, and hopefully a little hope. The Everyone Comes From Somewhere podcast by me, Dr. Jodi Carrington, is produced by Brian Brian Seaver, Taylor McGilvery, and the amazing Jeremy Saunders at Snack Labs. Our executive producer is the one and only, my Marty Piller. Our marketing strategist is Caitlin Beneteau. And our PR big shooters are Des Veneau and Barry Cohen. Our agent, the 007 guy, is Jeff Lowness from the Talent Bureau.

And my emotional support during the taping of these credits was and is and will always be my son, Asher Grant.