Unlonely with Dr. Jody Carrington - The Hardest Work You’ll Ever Do? Boundaries + Healing Your Own Damn Heart: Terri Cole

Episode Date: July 31, 2025

Tune in, because this one? It’s a gut-punch (in the best way). 🎯⁠I sat down with the legendary @terricole to talk about what happens when you finally realize:➡️ You can't heal others until you’ve done your own work.➡️ Boundaries aren't walls — they’re bridges.➡️ You’re not broken — you’re fucking learning.⁠We cover it all: messy healing, high-functioning codependency, and how to stay true to your mission even when the world tells you to play small.⁠Check out Terri Here:Website: terricole.comBook website: hfcbook.comInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/terricole/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

At the beginning of every episode, there will always be time for an acknowledgement. You know, the more we do this, people ask, why do you have to do the acknowledgement? and every episode, I've got to tell you, I've never been more grateful for being able to raise my babies on the land where so much sacrifice was made. And I think what's really critical in this process is that the ask is just that we don't forget. So the importance of saying these words at the beginning of every episode will always be of utmost importance to me and this team. So everything that we created here today,

for you happened on Treaty 7 land, which is now known as the center part of the province of Alberta. It is home of the Blackfoot Confederacy, which is made up of the Sikika, the Kainai, the Pekini, the Tatina First Nation, the Stony Dakota First Nation, and the Métis Nation Region 3. Our job, our job as humans, is to simply acknowledge each other. That's how we do better, be better, and stay connected to the good. Well, welcome back. Welcome. to another episode of Unlonely. This one, friends, I have waited a very long time. I'm going to introduce you in this episode to one of my mentors. And this incredible human has done some of the things that I hope I get to do in my life. New York Times bestseller. She is a licensed psychotherapist

and a global relationship and empowerment expert. She is the author of Boundary Boss and Too Much. for over two decades, the incredible Terry Cole has worked with a diverse group of clients that includes everyone from stay-at-home moms to celebrities and Fortune 500 CEOs, all equally as impressive and amazing. She has a gift for making complex psychological concepts accessible and actionable so that clients and students can really make a change, something that is going to stick. she inspires over a million people weekly through her blog social media platform signature courses and her popular podcast the terry cole show which i was on

i want you to dive in today with me because i i was really interested in this conversation about codependency about her take on you know what it means to be a woman breaking glass ceilings she is about a decade ahead of me and i just i hope you love this conversation because I was in awe with her, about her for her, and then of course got to do an episode with her on her show. So if you got the time, if you want to be inspired by an incredible human, listen to this episode and then pop over to her show too, because they're both equally as good. Enjoy. Well, okay, as you just heard, welcome back, welcome in.

We're doing all the great things today with the most incredible Terry Cole. And I have had the pleasure of being on her podcast most recently. And I think that this is kind of a moment for me as a therapist, somebody who's done work in this space, to be in the same space as somebody who's been such a mentor to me. So, Terry, honor, honor, pleasure to sit with you today. And I want to know all the things. There's a new book coming. You have revolutionized the idea of boundaries and connection after you watch so many people fuck up boundaries.

And that's usually how we get good at things, right? We watch people fuck it up and then we figure out how to do it better. And we do it. Yeah. Fuck it up a million times. Yeah. Become a therapist. You have revolutionized this conversation.

You've been at the forefront of having really, I think, hard conversations with powerful people that have just blown me away. And I want to dive into all of that today. So take it from the top, my darling. How are you so amazing? That's what this community needs to know. I don't know if I'm so amazing, but I do have the ability to stick to it. And I am incredibly curious.

So, you know, in doing this work, it's, you know, what do they say? You teach what you most need to learn. And so everything. My first book was about boundaries because I was a friggin' boundary disaster. And then my second book was on high functioning codependent. codependency, which is a term that I coined, because it was the flavor of codependency that I was suffering from in my life. And so once I figure these things out, I just want the zillions of people around the world to not have to go through all the crap that I went through to figure it out.

And so I will write a book about it. Oh, right? And I often, you know, I mean, this is what I said in. I think maybe the last one for sure. But, you know, the reason I wrote this book is because I need to read it. And I think that sometimes that's where we kind of get lost, is that it's like, you know, okay, you think you actually get the, I don't know if it, like, it's the privilege of writing a book because you're giving it to other people. But often I think so many times for, I think, the true people who understand the connection process, it's actually us doing our work in real time. It is. For me, I'm usually, it's funny, I'm usually ahead of the, some people do it in real,

real time, which I don't as a therapist, right? Because I don't want to show that to you until I'm on the other side. Or I don't feel like I have anything in real time. I'm figuring it out, right? But it's close in real time. And I feel like I'm most passionate about the things that have changed the quality of my life the most. I'm just astounded. Like why I got into therapy at all is that I got into therapy myself. And I was just transformed. Just transformed. forming my young ass off in my 20s. I just stopped drinking when I was 21 from being in therapy. Like all of these things where I couldn't even believe it.

I was like, wait, does everyone know about therapy? Does everyone understand that you could just learn shit about yourself and then you could change things and you could just decide you're going to pivot and you could just, it was like for me, the mental mindset was before therapy. I thought, oh, this is life. Here, here's, you get a hand. I get a hand. We all get a hand.

You know, you're like, All right. Make the best of the hand that you got. For me, therapy was like, I don't like this hand. I don't like this deck. I don't like this fucking game. I'm creating an entirely new game. And you can. Yes. This is the thing for me. So I would say, like, I knew in grade 10 I wanted to be a therapist. I wanted to be a psychologist, mostly because of a teacher. And I often tell the story. So I remember where Holly Nordstrom was standing in what she was wearing, the day she had to tell us that then captain of our hockey team had been killed. And I remember thinking as a 16 year old kid, if there's somebody at the helm of big

emotions who can navigate us home, we're all going to be okay. And I want to do that. That's awesome. And so I thought the whole time I was really in this place of not self-discovery, but I was going to be the one to assist in that process, never understanding that the reflection had to happen here first, right? And so, like, I just went to therapy just because then it would be helpful to say that I had done that a couple times.

And I would say that I didn't get a really good therapist until I was, like, in my Ph.D. And I was like, oh, oh, like, you know, people calling you on your shit in a way that is that the space has been held for because I think that's our biggest misunderstanding that we can tell people and provided by, we don't, I have no fucking idea if you should leave your husband. I do not know if you should change your career or why you're married narcissistic. serial killers. I'm not that good. But you do. And my job is to walk you back there. And having somebody do that for you in multiple situations allows you to do that for another person because you can't give away something you've never received. And so I think it's essential to do this work

in and I don't think you can do it without sort of having experiences. What do you, what do you think of? Does that, does that fit for you? Yeah, it does. And it's interesting that when you do the work, I feel like you resonate with the right people. Like the people who I attract into my community, into my, I've got a pay community, I've got a free community, right? They're women who are like me. This is what it is, that how I am in the world resonates with them, being a fellow traveler too, right, never setting myself up as some kind of a guru

because I'm like, you, like I don't know. My feeling is I don't possess the magic. Right. I'm holding up the mirror for your magic, right? You, you know. And one thing I do know for sure is that I'm a damn good GPS to get people to their own feelings, their own experiences that they need to unpack to heal. That for sure. But I think that it's important understanding like the role of our own health, our own mental health in being therapists. It's so important. Because how can you, how can you really do it? if you haven't done it. You know what I mean? How can you help someone else do it if you haven't done it? Truly. And I think the process is very different than the experience itself, right? So I, you know, I would often at the beginning of my career, I was on a lock psychiatric and patient unit for kids and I wasn't a mother. And so the question was, how can you do this if you've never been, you know, a mother? How can you be a child psychologist? And so I, such good questions.

I don't need to have been through a divorce to be able to walk with you in your process. I actually don't have to have had schizophrenia to understand what that must be like, right? And so I think there's a difference between the process itself and the experience itself, which we often get misaligned. You know, I know exactly what it's like because you lost your father. I know I've been divorced too. I, you know, so I think we attract likeness in the work that we do and that sort of helps the alignment. But it doesn't mean, and in fact, it's not even helpful if we are, we've all done the exact same thing, right? Because every, how you experience even the exact same moment as siblings, as partners, you know, we know this for sure in death. It's remarkable.

different PTSD, right? You could be the exact same scene and how what happens inside of your body as a result of what happens to you is the thing we always want to work with, not what's happened to you. Yeah? And I love your capacity to sort of do this so well. Talk to me a little bit about the evolution over the years because I know you're in New York. You've sat with some of the greatest minds in our business. And most recently, a couple that I'd like to talk about but I tell me tell me your evolution but you've who you've sat with how you've learned and evolved what that's looked like I think my my own evolution has a lot to do with building being an entrepreneur because my goal is to reach as many people as possible okay and so

that took me learning how to be an entrepreneur or how to be a business person, how to create courses, how to write books, how to, I've had a podcast and, you know, it's 10 years in September. I've had my pod. What? You know? Yeah. So you were cool before any of this was cool, which is what's so awesome. Just early adapter. Who know? I didn't.

But what I did know is that my Dharma, my purpose in life, my goal has never changed in all the 27 years. it was to help as many people as possible learn how to lessen their own suffering and elevate their own joy and satisfaction in life. It's literally been the same. So throughout the years, it's getting more creative and understanding. It's not enough to write a book, right?

I went to meet with someone about writing a book in 2009. And they were like, how many followers do you have on Twitter? This is back when Twitter, anybody cared. I'm not even booking out on Twitter anymore. Yeah. And I was like, I don't know, 900. She was like, yeah, okay, here's the thing. You need a billion more than that to end, basically learning about what is publishing now?

What does it mean? It's that people think it's about writing a book. No, it's about building a platform. Yeah. Because you could be brilliant in your motherfucking bathroom unless you have a platform. Because you're a publisher. I mean, it's the rare person who is so unique what they're doing or like hits the zeitgeist the exact right angle to like suddenly like blow up and become famous without having their own

platform right the only thing you own as an entrepreneur is your email list so anyone who wants to do this and have an impact at some point in your life you need to be thinking about that and yes for years i didn't think about that for years i was just in the trenches with my clients having what i believe is listen this is just my lens right but i always had a lens that was different than other people's lens. And so even with writing this book on codependency, a little part of me was like, who the fuck are you to like redefine codependency, Terry Cole?

And then I was like, here's the thing. Who the fuck am I not to? Right. I know that it needs a redefinition, that I know it needs modernizing because it does not speak to modern women and their life experiences. Yeah, melody, BD, needed an evolution.

Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And so, you'll keep going, sorry. Just saying that the, there's a part of me, you have the same worry that other people are going to think what you're doing is crazy, who are you to think you can do it, the imposter syndrome, all this other crap. But then at the end of the day, there comes a point where you know your stuff so well. You know what you're meant to do.

you hope you write a book that's for me it's all about am I taking these complex things and making them accessible so regular people so that the waitress in Omaha is like oh I'm not screwed I'm going to do this

I'm going to learn how to do boundary like this is what we want right is people I have this huge campaign to get all my books in libraries because I wanted everyone even if you didn't have 20 bucks to be able to read the book

like even in the playing field of really good psychotherapeutic information, psychoeducation, like people are so smart. I never thought people needed to be in therapy forever and ever. I always thought if I could package the information in an accessible enough way, which I've mastered the art of that over the last 15 years, for sure, that people will get better.

And they do. So my evolution was a lot of it about, I always sort of had original thought. Like I always thought outside the box Or maybe different than other people And even though it's scary to assert that I knew I like had to Because here's the thing, you get to a point

I recently had a situation happen where I you know And this is not, I won't name anything I won't name names But I met with a group of people About a potential show And most shows I can't do because they're awful So your therapist, your whole job is to do no harm

So really? you're going to do the show that like people you're not doing that show anyway but these people were like listen we're X that we don't do that kind this is really going to be healthy blubbitty blow would you want to be associated I said sure

if that's true if that's whatever so then they asked me to sign this 90 day like a non-compete thing which I used to be a talent agent normally I'd be like no looking way like why why am I doing that but you know what I liked them most reality television is not going to be for me I was like what is the like

of another television show that has to do with love coming to me in the next 90 days. Fine. I sign the thing. 12 days later. No. 12 days later. The biggest, literally the biggest show. I won't say what it is.

I can't. But it's been on the air almost two decades. And, you know, they were like, we really want you. It's already picked up for an entire season. It would be, you would be the person for the entire season. Stop. It was going to shoot for five weeks in LA, blah, blah. And as much as, listen, it would be so much more money than the other thing. It would be, I know there's literally no possible way I can do a show like that show or like any show that's out there right now of reality television where I'm supposed to be a therapist. Like I'm not. It's putting, people in these weird situations, pretending that it's normal, counseling them through. There's enough bad shit happening in the world where I don't think I need to do that. Anyway, my point is,

and I don't know what's going to happen with the other show. I haven't even told them, but it's so funny. I am going to tell them, of course, that it happened. But I didn't, I literally didn't turn down that show. I could have found, trust me, I would have found a way around the non-compete if I really wanted to do it. I could have waited out the non-compete. Like, it wasn't that. It was that it doesn't matter how many Emmys a show has won. If it goes against your ethics as a clinician, you can't do it, which is why a lot of people who do television are like coaches and other things. And that's great. Do your thing. Yes. Yes. And I, no, I, so this has been the truth in our, you know, in our evolution. And I feel this is what I just love so much about you is

that we've had to walk away from things that would have been so lucrative. And because as a team, we sit down and look at each other and say, does this align with what we believe to be true? And this is true. And, you know, in the speaking circuit all the time for me. And in the beginning, of course, it's like anything, anywhere, anytime. I'm just wanting to learn and I think people are good. And then suddenly I'm like, fuck me.

Okay. No, no, actually we're not. Okay. And I would then hide behind the things like, okay, I'm going to use this as my platform to change the world. And just because you should do things. Or just because you can do things doesn't mean you should. I mean, I have to talk about this.

I had a merch line where I made $800,000 a year. What the fuck kind of business did I have as a psychologist selling mugs? And I mean, but like there was a purpose at one point. And I was like, but what is this? Okay, just a second. Where are we putting? And I think what I love the most about you is how you've built this, the dissemination of this work in a way that becomes so I think untalked about, particularly for women,

in the development of business, a long. decide what we are super good at. So being trained as a psychologist, and I would argue with you, or not argue, I would agree with you completely. You're a damn good GPS, and I've never heard anybody say that before

because what I know to be true is that I am very, very good at this, being able to translate very complex issues like grief and trauma and loneliness into a way that people go, yeah, oh my, I feel seen. That end of the day, that is, if that's for one person,

Or we're at the UN in Geneva, that's the epitome for me to be really influential and policy development, is it all comes back to the same concept. Can you allow people to feel in your presence and ability to be open to navigating things in a different way? And so if you could be the facilitator of that, what a privilege, A, and B, then there's the business of making that happen. Fuck me, Terry Cole. And I feel like, I mean, of course, obviously,

I'm far behind you. I got these three books. You know, the first time that I got a Harper Collins book deal, they said, and I was so grateful. I'm like, thank you, Jesus. What can I stand on my head and spit nickels? And I thought it was the swan song, you know, obviously like, this is the one that's going to go straight to the top.

Shocker, it didn't. And, um, it, and they wouldn't let me read my own audio book. And I was like, I, I, I have to because, um, you know, and they're like, we're sorry. You know, and I said to our agent, Jeff, I was like, okay, so then we walk away. And he's like, oh, okay, just this is. second. I feel like we need to play the long game here, you know. And so now the next book is in the iteration. And, you know, it's so fascinating, Terry, when I sit in rooms of people that I never thought I would have a seat with, having very, again, trepidious conversations about like, do you think

this could be good? And like, okay, so do you think, like, how would we make this happen in this way? Would you let me read my audio book? Like, you know, all the questions that happen in this way that I just, I've watched you just trailblaze for. And I love really setting aside these two. things right now. It's your passion, the thing you're good at. But we're in a time, we're disseminating that work. If you want it to be, I think, as heartfelt as, you know, somebody like you and me, I think, do. It becomes the business side of things that you have to get very savvy at. And women, in my greatest experience, you know, I just, I just said to you, I just buried my dad on Thursday, probably the most brilliant businessman I've ever been in awe of.

and I think it was his probably inspiration for me to be like watch me and mostly because I think he left my mom where they built it together and when he left her she that was it and he got to continue to do his greatness and I was in my head

like that's not one fucking chance I will be the one in control of all the things because I know I can be and so it's so neat to watch this company go and move and like the sky's the limit it is so interesting to be able to watch though how you make those decisions and where you go and what you do next and you know this next book deal and the courses and you know how do you how do you

decide is there an intuitive piece for this of this for you do you do you have mentors do you lean on people um you know with your even this mass amount of expertise that you have how do you how do you play that now at this point in your career um i have really close friends who we all came up together Yeah. So there's a group of us when Chris Carr turned 40, I think it was, which was 15 years ago. So she brought together a group of women from, and people, a lot of them I knew, like Gabby Bernstein, I was already friends with because I was in entertainment and so was she, so I knew. And that's how I knew Chris Carr from, she was an actor and I was an agent. Really? Oh my gosh. So I've known Chris, she's 35 years.

So she brought together all the people, she's amazing. And, you know, there was, Daphne Oz was a part of it. And Julie Kumar and just Rachel Goldstein, there was a whole bunch of women, Tara Stiles, who's a yogi, Marie Forleo, Letham Thomas. Come on. There was the whole, yeah, it was amazing. You know, the girls, the girls. Who knew what anyone was going to do?

Yeah. Because the thing was, at that point, Chris was sort of the only one really doing, having a public, anything. This was, this was like the beginning. And so I've always had a certain amount. of women who are successful and generous. Like my experience has always been, women are amazing to each other,

that I come from a family of three older sisters. I'm the youngest, and I'm such a girl's girl. Not a girly girl, right? I'm a girl's girl. Oh, love that. So many amazing women. So anything that I'm looking to do,

I do a powwow with people who've done it. And then I have friends like Amy Porterfield and there's all these other people in this space. where I can go to Amy and be like, okay, so this is, like, I learn from my friends, like their expertise. Yes. Yeah. I learned how to build my email list from Amy, taking her courses, like actually doing

that. But also. Jenna Coucher. Yes. Being able to interview people. Exactly. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. And I mean, just to pause on that email list for a second, you still believe that is gold. Would you say that still is where we should be investing a lot of our development from an entrepreneur position? I think that it's probably the most. most important thing because here's the thing. It's the only thing you own. It's the only real estate you own. Instagram could disappear tomorrow. I just, I just reached 250,000 people on Instagram. Amazing. Yeah, that could close down tomorrow. And then I don't know where any of those

people are. So I have a list of about 125,000, very active, right? Like a real list. Like back in the day, I didn't even know I should clean my email list. I just thought more people is better until I hired the right people being like, no. A list of a bunch of dead emails. kills your deliverable rate. There's a whole bunch of stuff to learn about that. But I think that you can easily, what I do, I'll just give you a quick tip that what I do to build my email list every single week. So I put out two episodes a week of the Terry Cole show.

So one is a solo of me and then one is with another person. In the solo one, I always have a PDF, a downloadable PDF or a meditation or journal prompts. something that goes along with the episode. And I always say, hey, just go to terrycolle.com forward slash a guide to pick up the guide for this week. So we always keep it in the same place. And I think we probably gain between 300 and 1,500 new leads per week. Stop right now. Oh my God, you're brilliant.

Okay, go, carry on. But you're giving value, right? Part of it is, I'm always giving value. I do a lot of free stuff. Some people don't think that that's great. For me, and maybe it's assuaging my guilt, being a therapy, whatever. It doesn't matter why I do it. I put out a lot of free shit.

A, it also is part of my Dharma, my truth, is to even the playing field. So I can't tell you how many people I've heard from all over the world being like, I didn't have a penny, but I binge the shit out of your 700 free. YouTube videos and you change my fucking life. Oh, I know. So it also makes me not feel bad selling things. So I have, you know, what are the things that make sense when you have this kind of a business where we're teaching people? Because listen, people will spend money on personal development to a degree, right?

It's okay. This is, I've been doing courses since 2015 very successfully. I'm using the launch model. Sometimes the Evergreen model where people can. start at any point or whatever. I feel like launching. I really tried doing the evergreen thing. I don't think it works as well for me. Okay. So, you know, we're sort of back to the launch model. The other thing to think about is for me, what's next up. So I have this next book that will come out in 26. I'm still talking about codependency now, but I have another book coming out in Jesus

age Christ. I'm done with books for a while after that. I wrote four books in five years. Oh my God, Terry. Stop it. It's just inhuman. Human, inhuman. Yes, not good choices, buddy. Not good choices. Zero out of 10 would not recommend. Okay. Don't do it.

But I'm super excited about creating a train the trainer. Yes. So I have all of these people in my world. There's so many therapists and psychologists and psychiatrists and MDs and nurses and nurse practitioners and, you know, hypnotherapists and all these things in my community who are like, hey, how do you do it? Like, what is your way of teaching? And so train the trainer, which is going to be a whole thing. First of all, it's something that it's easier to sell for a lot of money because it's business to business and people can write it off and people who are much more likely to invest in their business that they can justify is going to make money as opposed to, you know, I'm going to do a course on love or I'm going to do a course on boundaries. So that will be in 2026 as well, the train the trainer.

But I feel like those are the things that are next. A pay community is something that a lot of us do. So my community is $59 a month. I go live every week in that community. And I feel like that creates for me like a solid place for people to come in. It's like an easy funnel because it's not expensive. But people, you can pay $5.90 for the year. You get two months for free.

But it's for people who are like, I like you. I want you to answer my questions. I want to be with like-minded, like-hearted folks. folks, that's really what a community does, is it fulfills that. But I'm still launching, right? I just launched by the time this comes out, I've just launched my breaking the cycle of high functioning codependency course. That goes along with all the things, because as I said to you earlier, I was just on, we can do hard things with Abby, Glennon, and Amanda. Okay, let's just stop that right now. Okay. I was just done. She just says this, like just says this,

like just says it like i hung out with abby wambach who i have a personal crush on glennon doyle i like you just say those things this is just what i did i just hung out with the three amazing humans and i want to know everything how was it you rocked it by the way like going like they just hung on every word and that's what i love i love just how interested they are in life and people and humans yes so tell me what that was like Well, it was really Amanda, like she's my, she's really my person there. When they were interviewing Melody Beatty, R-I-P, she said to Melody Beatty, actually, the definition of codependency that I identify the most with is Terry Cole's high-functioning codependency. So she said this like three years ago, because I've been talking about this long before the book came out, you know.

And so many, I had all these people texting me being like, oh my God, Amanda just mentioned you. wow, we could do hard things very excitedly. And you're like, fine, she knows my name, she knows my name, she knows my name. Yes. And then part of me, you know, I thought, oh, we should follow up with them or we should. And then I just was like, you know what? I always think of everything in my life as a long game. Like one thing I know how to do is just keep doing the work.

It's just keep doing the work. Just head down and do the work. And if you do, like what is for you will not. pass you. And so I really try to stay away from like the compare and despair stuff, even though, listen, nobody's immune to it. But I try to just truly have faith that if it's meant to be, it's going to be. And even with bad Amanda thing, like, people were like, well, you should find her and you should say, thanks for mentioning me. And you should do all this shit. And I'm like, you know what? Listen, no, I'm not doing that. I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing. Now, I also have a PR agency.

that I pay, who's pitching the shit out of me to these places. So she might have known who I was without them. But you know, then you have someone who's consistently being like, hey, hey, hey, hey, why don't you have her on talking about this? Why don't you have her on talking about that? God, there's her name again. There's her name again. Huh. Interesting. Right. Exactly. And they were wonderful. They were, you know,

the weirdest thing that I could say, and I think, you will understand this. I had this like, weird cognitive distortion because we recorded both of them December 10th

and they came out March, April 15th and 17th. They literally just came out, right? Wow. Months later. So so much time to just decide

that it was just the worst thing that you ever did in your life. Like so much time to decide you don't know anything that everyone hated you. Much time. so much time so much time so much time so Abby and so this is my story Abby and Glennon were bored is what I thought

the only person who liked me was Amanda yeah yeah and that I didn't say anything at all that that's what that's what came up that's what you came to okay got it so then when it finally came out now and I I rarely listened to the things I do and I rarely watch the television shit I do either I just go that's up onto the next I'm very identified with actors who were like literally never even seen that movie because like they shot it two years ago they're like I can't even think about it But one of my sisters, who I'm very close to, wrote me something very nice. And she is not very complimentary. Like, she's your sister.

She's going to tell you the absolute truth. And she was like, I literally think it was the best interview we've ever done to her. And I was like, oh, my God, really? So then I decided I could listen to it if she really thought. If she thought that. Yeah. Yep. And I listened to it.

And I didn't cringe away. And it was the most beautiful. experience to experience their pod squad, like the amount of people. Because a lot of times, you know this, you do these things. You do Good Morning America. Is it moving the needle? Not really. Like maybe a little bit.

But people think that I'm going to do the Today Show. And then I'm going to be on the United Times bestsellers list. Definitely not. That is for sure not happening. That was my plan. Okay, cool. Just thank you for let me know. Yeah.

No, it doesn't. It's not how it goes. It's not the trajectory. No. Oh, okay, cool. But what sells books, right? Because sometimes maybe you'll get a spike in book sales a little bit, but it's not, it's not a whole plan. This is probably the most that I've seen where my publisher came to me and said, well, sales of too much quadrupled last week.

I was like, amazing. Because usually you just don't, you just don't see that direct thing. Yes. But even if that didn't. And we probably got, because when you do something like that, right, my team. team and I were planning for those episodes to come out of we can do hard things so so that we could capture as much as we could possibly capture. So what did we do? I had a free gift to give to them so people have to opt in for the gift. I would say we probably added 5,000 people to

our list, probably at least 5,000 leads from that experience. And I also launched a course specifically because of that, right? In connection to what you talked about. Yes. You know, it's basically a breaking the cycle of high functioning codependency course. Yeah. Brilliant. Brilliant. And I was so interested in that. Yeah. Yes. And so how do we give more? I think is the question often, right? And so I think to your point, that's really great. You know, we can write a book. We can do these things. And I speak, as you know, a lot, a hundred times a year. And I think there's so many lost opportunities there because I think it is just sort of that idea. Like it is my expectation that there will be a standing ovation. I don't think I've served people well. If they, didn't feel moved by me and even on my worst day I can get that shit done okay yeah and so where I lose so much though I think is just surrounding myself with people that sort of know that next level because there's been such a fast moving ship and so many opportunities that it's like

also how do we then so I would say in the last even eight months it's been like what I'm most interested in is people who come back to me two years later or three years later and we've thought about you since then yep yes okay right So what is happening with your community? What is happening in your organization? How are those police officers doing? What do we need to do more for your teachers? And I love that long game, as you say, how do you plant the seeds?

Because movement as we know this in therapy often takes, you're on your own timeline. So I have no business to tell you how fast you need to move as an organization or as a human or as in your marriage. So paralleling that understanding as a therapist, I think gives us such a beautiful opportunity to watch how that can evolve or how you can assist in the development of, you know, businesses or what you deliver on a podcast that then could then give that human the opportunity to go down a path that, like, you know would be good for them, but they got to be ready to take it. And if it's not there for them to be able to take advantage of that, then obviously they won't.

And that's on me. So I just, I love your thoughts about that. The timing about that becomes really important, right? Having people in your world that can be like, hey, tear, how about we line it up in this way. And that's deliberate, right? The strategy behind that. Oh, of course. And it took years to have the right team. And what I'm thinking for you, because I'm really interested in speaking more in my life, but I've been so bogged down writing books, which is, okay, listen, high class problems. It's almost over. Yeah. But how do you, right, when you go and you mesmerize people and you inform people and you

inspire people and you resonate with people and you do your thing it's like do you have you know little cards with a with a QR code that they can scan right so that you're collecting all of these leads that you're getting through that yeah and we've done it effectively sometimes and then just completely forgot about it many other times and yeah I am the shittiest at selling from the stage I hate it I like Tony Robbins has put such a fear in my soul. And I, you know, again, I've sat in all of those rooms and tried to gather all the intel and what do I want and what don't I want and, you know, invested billions of dollars of watching, you know, the Bernays and like, you know, Shonda Rhymes and how do I, and it's always

about how you make people feel. And so what I struggle with the most, right, is being up there and then, hey, and also, I've created a little thing for you. There's a cure. So I have, I know I need to work on my ability to tie that in because I think it's it's people do it beautifully yeah and I think the intention behind it is what matters and I fear sometimes that even when my intention is beautiful I would love you to have this list of how you acknowledge your parents or how you do this with you here it is it's all yours take it share it it doesn't matter to me um I always fear a little bit that the perception of that would be like oh that's why you're fucking here and so it just to stop me from doing that I think a lot of the times and I know to my own to their I could give them more

And I want to do that more. It's like the way in which that happens, I think, is the art. I think a lot of it for me was about changing my mind about what I was doing and about what needed to happen for me to continue doing it. So, and maybe I evened it out by doing so much free stuff that I don't feel bad at all, selling. I don't feel bad at all. If you like this talk, if this resonated with you, I have a course starting that you might

like and there you go and if not I've got 700 free videos so yeah yeah you could also do that for you yeah right and and again it's not feeling bad so what if part of your ulterior motive is to get their email so that they're a part of your community what if that's true what's wrong with that you want to stay in touch with the people you're building a community there's nothing wrong with it and so I think that there's so much especially when we're in this type of business that it took a long time. I mean, I was, you know, it was a disaster with money in the beginning of being a therapist. I mean, I had a client who I didn't, I let not pay me for eight months like ridiculous. Oh, come on. Come on. Yeah. I think when I was on your podcast, this is the

one thing I remember about, you know, I remember many things, but what you said to me was so interesting. And I think women in particular, this has been a journey for me in the last six months is to to really step into that abundance place of it's okay. And you said something to me about like it's okay to have more money than the poor. It's okay to have more money than, you know, these are the problems that my father, who I admired so much never considered. The most scrupulous and gorgeous.

He built businesses by building communities. And I love that so much. And I think that there's so much potential in that. But it's like, yes, when you said, you know, you're allowed, you're allowed to be rich and successful and to make, you know, open to the universe and abundance. And it's taken me a really long time to be okay with that.

because I think there's so many messages in my bones that would suggest how, who the, no, no, who do you think you are? And you can do that, but you better fucking die in the service of other people. Yeah. Right, because that's the cost to that. If you think you're going to be that lucky, then what are you doing with that?

Right. Like, what do you have to do to deserve it? And you know who really influenced me around abundance in my young life? I spent a lot of time studying with Deepak Chopra at the Chopra Center with my husband. and solo. And Deepak was very much, he's got this amazing book called Creating Affluence that I love so much. It's like a pocket book and it's like, A, is for abundance or whatever, right? But it really influenced me because his whole point was like, there's nothing wrong

with wanting a luscious life, with wanting opulence, with wanting to have these beautiful high-end experiences. There's nothing wrong with that. That's not hurting anyone else. Right? As long as you're not like taking food that's, you know, food money that's supposed to be from someone else. But he was sort of like just dispelling this myth that like to be pious means to be poor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because it doesn't. Yeah. Right. We deserve to have beautiful experiences in life. And we work hard to create them. Right. Right. That's not hurting anyone to do that. I love that. And using it for good. I think was also your point to me then, you know, Right? Is it's just like it's not about the collection of wealth necessarily. I think that's where people get what to what end. We don't leave here with any of it. So this whole concept of legacy is very important to me. You know, as I watch my dad transferring his legacy to us now and how incredibly important that was to him, what am I going to do with that? And what am I going to do with that for our children and how do I make them better humans to serve this world than I could ever be or than he ever was? And anyway, all those questions. Okay, I want to, I want to make sure I make a little bit of time now for this new book because I would at the beginning stages of this. next book for me, which I think Tara's going to be called, you're not that good. This is my

newest pitch because I think it really is this permission to like fucking give it up. But anyway, I want to know everything about where we're at in the writing process, how much time you're spending doing this. What is your, do you have a process when you're in the depths? Do you need to go alone? Do you need to be by yourself? Are you reading everything you can get your hands on? What does that look like for you? It's funny. I don't do the reading everything as I can get my hands on, right? I'm interested in other people's experience, so I really tap my community. I am writing about father wounds. That's what the next book is about. Stop!

Yes. Okay. Yeah, I'm so excited. And so as I do with anything I write about, I first create a course about it. So in real time, with real people, I'm seeing what works and what doesn't work. what moves the needle? What creates transformation and what is just an exercise in nothing? So that, I get so much feedback for my community. And then I interviewed, every woman I've ever loved, I swear to God has a father wound, or at least many, many, many, many of them.

So I interviewed all my friends. I literally just interviewed all my friends. And they're going to be, it's going to be anonymous. Like, you know, I always just make everyone anonymous in the book because it's, you know, case study. Sometimes it's a conglomeration of information. But I interviewed 15 women already for this book. I've got creating archetypes. So my process is there's a lot of pre-work that I do with my team of the, we're planning this book for, right? We started the father, I started the father wound course three years ago.

Wow. And this book will not come out until 2026. And I owe it to them in this year. So September is what I'm handing it in. So we're more than half done with it. And the writing process is brutal for me personally. It's a lot of writing and rewriting and writing and rewriting. But I'm less worried about it this time around than I was.

This last book was a really hard book to write. I made a lot of mistakes. It ended up being the perfect book. And I work with this amazing editor. It sounds true. once you get to the developmental edit part. And she basically said, Terry, listen, if you got 80% of the book that you want to write is better than most people.

So just trust me, 80% is good enough. People are going to learn. People are going to transform. Don't freak out. Love that. That is helpful. Thank you, editor. Oh, my God.

That is punished. Joelle Ham is her name, by the way. On it. On it. Yeah. And, okay, so tell us, tell me. the premise. Tell me this father wounds. What are we working with here? What do you hope? How is it going to shift our understanding of this relationship we all have in some capacity? It's really about

worthiness. It's that how, when you have a father wound, whether it's, you know, what is a father wound? It's basically having a father that was either absent, emotionally unavailable, or then on the other side, more aggressively negative, right? You've got the whole spectrum of experiences from just not there at all if somebody died or abandoned or there physically but not emotionally and that was my situation personally. I had a father who had a very, I would say his emotional IQ is that of a sneaker maybe. And then we have the all of the what else. It could be somebody not there from addiction. It could be verbally abusive, psychologically abusive, physically abusive, sexually abusive. So you have all of these different gradations of how exactly, how the wound can

happen. But then you have all these similarities of how it expresses itself in our lives, like just not feeling good enough, feeling the need to overachieve, feeling the perfectionism stuff. I mean, for years in my own life, I literally just thought I was ambitious. I was like, I'm just running towards something. And then through therapy, I was like, oh, my God, I'm actually running away from something. Holy shit. it feels so much the same. Yes. And my therapist was like, I think you really wanting to prove, right?

Because my story was, you know, what is my racket, as I call it, about my father? Is that I was born the wrong gender. I was his last chance for a boy and I was a fourth daughter. And he was a guy who definitely needed some sons. And so that was my story. That was my racket. That was my limiting belief. So I went through life with this chip on my shoulder.

Like, even when I was a talent age, and I was like the youngest one running a bi-coastal talent. Like, I was so into being the first and doing it the best and just leaping up the ladder, you know? And then when I really understood what it was about, that was when the deep healing work really started with my own relationship with my father. But it's not just me. And it's like what happens to us, a lot of times is we repeat it in our romantic relationships. I was always with unavailable men for, you know, and then when I thought I had it beat through therapy, I was like, oh my God, look at me now. I'm just dating all these European guys who are so warm and they're so affectionate.

And my therapist was like, they fucking live on another continent. Yeah, super available. Hello. She's like, dude, it's the same thing. I was like, oh, no. So that's basically what it's about and how we can get into recovery from how we can heal our own wounds by acknowledging, by understanding, by unpacking it, which I walk through in the book.

Beautiful. And yeah, it's on the other side of feeling whole, finally, you know. I love that. I love that. And I think there's so much, you know, embedded in that process for women. And I think, you know, oftentimes in intimate relationships or in the things that matter the most, you know, it's the people, we're wired for connection. And so people tend to be at the helm of our greatest traumas, of our biggest misunderstandings of ourselves. And the only way we heal them is at the hands of people.

And so it's very difficult to do that when the thing you fear the most is the thing you need the most to come on the other side. And I love that, you know, just even in my dad's death, there's been so much work that has happened and so much. reflection that I wouldn't have allowed myself to give him when he was here. And even in the almost two weeks that he's been gone, there's been so many like, I never was allowed to think about it that way until now. So I cannot wait, Terry Cool. That is going to be, that is something this world needs and you're so good at doing that all the time. Okay, so where, I know all of these things I'm going to link, I'm going to link the Abby and Glennon and Amanda podcast, all of those things are going to be in the notes. Where can we get you? Where's the best one?

Well, first of all, I have a gift for your people. So go to Terry Cole.com forward slash HFC. And it's an HFC toolkit. So high function and codependent toolkit because everyone asks the same question. It's like, where do I start? So. And you can also buy the book on that page. There's more information about the mastermind that I do and different stuff that I have on that page. But you'll also get a simplify and do less video and PDF, self-love meditation, power of no meditation. It's just like a little kit to get you started down the path of being in recovery from being an age of C. A little bit of love from Terry Cole. That's from my heart to yours. And I mostly hang out on Instagram. I'm just at Terry Cole. I have my podcast, as you know,

since September of 2015, which is called The Terry Cole Show. And I've got a very active YouTube channel where I release stuff. I release two videos a week. So you can find me in all the places. Oh, you're dreamy. What a gem. What a gem. Thank you for your time. You were my biggest inspiration in the space, Terran. I can't wait to watch you just, just rocket ship. I'm going to be just in the stands, cheering hard. All right, everybody. Take care of yourself. Take care of each other. I will meet you right back here again. Next go. And in the meantime, drop those shoulders. by three incredible humans,

Brian Siever, Taylor McGilvery, and Jeremy Saunders, all of Snack Lab productions. Our executive producer, my favorite human on this planet, is Marty Pillar. Soundtracks were created by Donovan Morgan, Unloney Branded artwork created by Elliot Cuss, our big PR shooters, our Desvinoe and Barry Cohen.

Our digital marketing manager is the main Amazing, Shana Haddon. Our 007 secret agent from the Talent Bureau is Jeff Lowness. And emotional support is provided by Asher Grant, Evan Grant, and Olivia Grant. Go live! I am a registered clinical psychologist in Alberta, Canada. The content created and produced in this show is not intended as specific therapeutic advice. The intention of this podcast is to provide information, resources, education, and

The one thing I think we all need the most, a safe place to land in this lonely world. We're all so glad you're here. Thank you.