Unlonely with Dr. Jody Carrington - The Magic That Can Exist in the Midst of the Shit: Jeremy Allen

Episode Date: May 30, 2024

Jeremy Allen is just a small town boy, born and raised not in south Detroit, trying to change the way the world embraces their grief.In this episode Dr. Jody and Jer talk all about grief, loss, and the magic that can exist in the midst of the shit. Follow Jer's work:Instagram Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

At the beginning of every episode, there will always be time for an acknowledgement. You know, the more we do this, people ask, why do you have to do the acknowledgement in every episode? I got to tell you, I've never been more grateful for being able to raise my babies on a land where so much sacrifice was made. And I think what's really critical in this process is that the ask is just that we don't forget. So the importance of saying these words at the beginning of every episode will always be of utmost importance to me and this team. So everything that we created here today for you happened on Treaty 7 land, which is now known as the center part of the province of Alberta. It is home of the Blackfoot Confederacy, which is made known as the center part of the province of Alberta.

It is home of the Blackfoot Confederacy, which is made up of the Siksika, the Kainai, the Pekinie, the Tatina First Nation, the Stony Nakota First Nation, and the Métis Nation Region 3. Our job, our job as humans is to simply acknowledge each other. That's how we do better, be better, and stay connected to the most amazing, gorgeous humans I know. You're back for another episode of Everyone Comes From Somewhere. And, you know, I know it's going to be a good one if I, can you, can you feel the smile in my voice, uh, when I talk about this guest? Because, um, I consider this dude, uh, like a, like a soul mate, uh, a guy who just speaks a language that I wish the world could hear. And, um, I got, I got to tell you a little bit about him. Okay, so today might be a heavy one.

We're going to talk grief in a way that I think everybody needs to hear it. I'm amazed every day that you and me can walk around this world and carry the baggage of grief that every single human has to endure. Nobody gets out of here alive. That still shocks me on a daily basis that nobody gets out of here alive, that everybody walking down the street or, you know, in the school that you dropped your kids off at this morning or in a conversation that you had, you know, have buried their mom or buried a child or navigated a loss in some significant way. And still we show up in this human race in ways that, you know, nobody sees it. It's all invisible, this thing called grief, unless it debilitates you and then we know

it to be true. But we're going to talk a little bit today about what grief is and what it can do to you and what it can give you. And I could think of no better human to do that than a guy by the name of Jeremy Allen. Now, his self-proclaimed description of himself is just a small-town boy, born and raised not in South Detroit, but in Alberta, trying to change the world, trying to change the way the world embraces their grief. He is, by training, a funeral director and embalmer. He and his wife own Gregory's Funeral Home, did from a very early age, took this business and made it to one of

the safest places to land when people in, gosh, provinces around them go through and try to navigate some of the worst connections, disconnections of their life when they lose somebody. Jair's walked my family home through some things, the people I love the most through some things. In this process, you know, since we met, we were introduced by his father because I was, he was, his dad's, uh, uh, was at the time a big shooter in the world of Alberta education. And I was doing some work with different districts in Alberta and I met this guy and he was, he's been so influential as a, as an educator in this province. And so, um, I knew a little bit about his son from his dad and then, uh, and then his wife started following me, drug him. I think he

wouldn't say this to a talk I did in a little town called concert. And I remember when he walked in and, uh, you know, saying, Hey, you know, my dad and my wife, you know, said I should come here. And then basically we fell in love and we've talked a lot about grief and trauma and what it's like to walk a parent home five minutes after they realize that their their adolescence not coming home. What you do to honor relationships that look nothing like the way we were raised, how you walk somebody home at a funeral. I just I can't wait for you to hear his concepts today.

He is the founder of a passion project he calls Death Ed that is really an attempt to revolutionize the way people understand, speak about, lean into, lean on the concept of grief. He's a dad, a husband, and a bit of a rock star. And I need you to know this, Jeremy Allen, you're one of my favorite humans on the planet. And I'm so glad that you joined me today. What I want to know out of the gate as I ask everybody to start, the big difference between empathy and judgment is understanding somebody's story. So tell me, Mr. Jeremy Allen, where do you come from? Oh, well, let's start with gratitude. So like coming from a place of gratitude, I feel like you'll know this, but to try to communicate this with your community, it's too bad there's not video attached to these podcasts because it's just like I'm sitting in the background rural setting but a very rural setting probably

parallel to the one that that you grew up in uh called wainwright alberta and uh and i know like a part of this introduction a part of where it brought me to um it matters how that part of our life started and and where we came from came from because it shaped who we become and and so and and it also shaped like sometimes good sometimes bad meaning you know the the neat part about where I ended up one of the big questions I get about being a funeral director in Palmer is like how did you choose this you know what got you into this and my response is well I got caught cheating on my social 30 diploma at the school my dad was a teacher at, nearly got expelled for that

said incident. And through the, you know, thankfully, I was the child that screwed up a lot or like made a lot of mistakes. But that taught me a lot about accountability. So I held myself accountable once caught. And, and then, you know, through that ended up going and being able to rewrite this exam, pursuing and was able to still graduate with my classmates. But coming back from this exam, my mom and dad were just like, you know, what are you going to do for the rest of your life? And when you grow up rural, like when you grow up, especially rural Alberta, like there's not a ton of outcomes. Like you have to, you have to go and do something like it. So I said, well, I don't really know.

Like maybe I'll be a teacher because I came from a lineage of educators, or maybe I'll be a youth pastor because I grew up in a pretty religious environment where, you know, like did a lot of youth group, a lot of camps, things like that. And like, I just had a lot of fulfillment. And, but that just didn't make sense because I hated school and, and I drank and partied too much to be a youth pastor. So neither of those are real viable outcomes. So got caught cheating on this test was coming home. We entered this conversation and my parents were like, well, actually your aunt works at a funeral home in Calgary and they're looking for help what do you think I was like sounds awful not no thank you and they're like not an option uh you need a change of

scenery your suit's in the trunk we're going to Calgary you have a you have an interview tomorrow and I was like okay sounds good and and so because parents I mean I think this is I think this is a reasonable and maybe somewhat universal experience when you grow up rural when parents can't see an outcome for you locally anymore they panic right right and it's just like we just i think we all panic i don't i don't i don't think there's anything rural i think like every parent is like i can't see a fucking outcome because you can't even unload the dishwasher and you're shit-faced in the cancella gravel pits so i have failed you you're now 17 years old you got no plan get in

the car we're gonna take you in a suit and make you something. Hopefully somebody else can take it from here because our fucking track record isn't looking shiny. combined with my dad having to teach me sex ed uh probably gave him enough indicators to to why this change of scenery seemed was necessary was necessary and probably just a just a general snapshot of those you ran with at the time would be like wow who by the way turned out to be some of the most incredible humans on the planet. But in that moment, you're like, okay, we are, we are really going to have to see if we can expand this world. Cause if left to his own devices, he will not be doing that on his own. Right. Because being a bartender at Wuzzy's for the rest of your life wasn't a plausible outcome. And, uh, as you do, I mean, I don't know if that's like not a super plausible one I mean I don't think it's a bad I don't think it's a bad outcome I mean not at that stage so I could look

back now you know like it's it's fascinating and I've been pretty connected to to the concept of time as a result of my career right right um but it is still fascinating how you know the days are long but the years go by quickly and and like you know that's that's coming on 20 almost 22 years ago or whatever that would have been you know that uh that those conversations were happening and i could i can look back with perspective i would think like well probably still wouldn't align with their approach however it's understandable, right? And, and, and honestly, through it all to you, like it, then that guides you into and I think this is just that extension of like, where do you come from? Well, those things matter.

Because most of the things that ended up working out for me in my life, typically started with some kind of me fucking something up you know where it was where it was just like it wasn't rooted in an immediate success it was me you know throwing myself into you know into the depths of something I probably could have avoided and then had to work my way out of and like gained my education in a lot of ways through those experiences and and I look at that now like even reapplying it just thinking about it in this conversation of ways through those experiences. I hear you. And I look at that now, like even reapplying it, just thinking about it in this conversation of like, that's what I watch families do on an almost daily basis, right?

Like where they get thrown into the depths of something intense that they didn't plan on, that didn't go the way that they thought it was going to. But now I don't have a choice. Like my only option is to figure out how am I going to work my way through this? out how am I going to work my way through this or how am I going to work my way into a position to move forward with this? help me understand the way you see this universal process of loss. Define it for this community in a way that makes the most sense to you. So grief, I think the most important part that I've learned is the importance of us

figuring out how to acknowledge grief as the emotion in environments outside of just when people die you know that grief is our emotional and behavioral response to loss not specifically to when somebody we love dies of course it's a very like it's probably the easiest space for us to recognize grief for the easiest place for us to see it take place but when we think about you know like I I think that's what I've loved so much about this career is watching people in this very obvious environment of grief, but then connecting the docs back to like our kids, you know, when they move to a new community, when they lose access to their friends or their social networks. Or when I think of kids that walk through the experience of a changed relationship in their parents due to divorce, or as a spouse or a partner that has a somebody that they love in their life that struggles with addiction or mental health,

and it changes that person that they've lost a part of them, right? Like, and it's just, you start to see all of these other environments that grief lives or that loss lives and then grief follows closely behind. So grief is a universal response to loss. Yeah. And what does it do? What does it do in your body? Like, tell me, how do people know that they're experiencing grief? I, from what I've been able to watch is just like, and it's, I have such a unique, maybe perspective or way of communicating about it because to me to truly see somebody in grief is when we see the multitude of emotions allowed the opportunity to be present. So not specifically being sad, not specifically being in denial or depression, but where it's just like, where I've sat at the table with moms and dads who

accidentally laugh in the midst of funeral arrangements, you know, because a good story came up. Right. And then it's like, ah, shit, there, there it is. Right. Like, it's just like, even in the midst of like this incredible heartache and this incredible sorrow, like your mind and your heart still allow this like little blast of joy to come through. Yeah. And if I think about grief, I mean, I love how you sort of stated in that way. It is an uncontrollable, often untimely asshole that doesn't often seem to make sense. There's no rhyme or reason. It is a thing I wish out of anything in this world that we could have a pill for. It is in everybody's body, every single human. If you're old enough to love, you're old enough to grieve. And it's almost an explosion of emotion that even in the most refined, the most controlled, the toughest, burliest motherfucker

you can imagine, it will escape. And here's what is fascinating. If I look at grief just as an emotion, right? It's like there's nothing humans like less than unpredictability. We like to know what's going to happen. Not to say you can't be spontaneous or exciting or burst of those things, but I kind of like to know predictability because the most dysregulating is uncertainty coupled with fear and no end in sight. Okay. So grief in and of itself as an emotion is a fucking asshole. No. And then can you define for me the difference between grief and mourning? Because I think that's the interesting thing and how you see it is so interesting to me because I, I mean, you and I have had this conversation multiple times and my understanding of grief and mourning

is really the difference between what, what's his name? What's that guy? Wolfelt. Yeah. Alan Wolfelt came up with. Yeah. That, that really described that for me. Cause I, I've always, I've mashed them together, but they're, they're different.

Yeah. Right. I, uh, I won't be able to recall the quote off the top of my head, but I, I, he does a really good job defining the differences. Now the practice of that, or like for me, like the, like, I like to simplify these in conversation for me, the difference between grief and mourning is grief is the emotion that accompanies loss. Mourning is when we activate and start to participate in that emotion. Right.

So it's just like, I'm not, mourning is not. And like, and that's, I think that's what Wolfelt says. Like mourning, mourning is the gateway to healing. Right. And to me, what I think mourning is, is where it's like, we finally reached that point of recognition that it's like, I'm not going to sit idle in this emotion. I'm going to be a participant in this loss. And I know like one of the things I've talked about, and it's funny because maybe I've had these conversations sometimes thousands of times, worth the price of admission but it matters that requires context like that requires a little bit deeper understanding and what for me that that means is that well because of the environments I've worked in and watched and participated in here's what I know to be true. You can only experience loss to the level in which you've experienced a relationship.

So to sit and be in a place of emotion that it doesn't feel like you're going to survive this, typically is a reflection of the reality that that person lived for you, or they were a part of you. And they are, you know, present and were a part of you and they are you know present and still a part of you right so so to me and it's just like the only way we remedy that is to not be willing to enter that deep of a relationship and and that would be tragedy right so grief i love this let's say it again for the kids in the back grief grief is worth the price of admission. And I think sometimes in your role, Jer, you have to believe that before they do. Right. And I do. You have to, because I think if I, as a mom, you know, if I came to you and said, help me, you know, bury my baby. And you said to me, this is worth it. This is worth the price of admission. This is worth

loving this kid. I can't imagine, you know, so many people must say like, fuck you. Like I, in this moment, this is a pain that I have not felt or wish on anybody. And would it have been easier if I had not known this human or, you know, dad's dead and we had, you know, 20 years worth of dementia to try to navigate. Like, fuck, is it really like I couldn't have, you know? So tell me, tell me more about that because I, I believe just for the record, similar to sort of your message is that we all have the capacity for good. And I've heard people say this to me, Oh yeah, you haven't fucking met this guy or you haven't seen my ex-husband. And I often say that I will believe for you until you're ready to. Because I think, isn't that the truth of a funeral director sometimes? Well, because timing matters, right? Like timing is important in these conversations. And so, you know, if I'm going to sit and have this conversation with a mom or a dad that is walking, you know, through whether it's the immediate parts of that loss or even

if it's been years, timing matters and, and being willing to lean into the difficult part of that conversation also matters. Like it just can't be. So, you know, like when I, when I think about this and actually to be transparent, the person that had questions about my wording on these things was a parent. It was a parent that had lost a child. And, uh, because I, I also think there's a lot of magic in grief, you know, now tell me, and, and like, you know, magic isn't good or bad. It's just like,

it's something that can't be explained. And so when I think of like, you know, recently helping our friends, who's, who's father-in-law passed away unexpectedly and, you know, recently helping our friends whose father-in-law passed away unexpectedly. And, you know, being at the cemetery with them and kneeling down with these, like, these grandchildren and, like, watching them go from dancing to the songs that were playing to crying because they were just so sad that their grandpa died to kneeling next to me and being willing to help lower their grandpa's casket while we helped explain why it's important we take care of the people we love when they die.

Like, that is magic because it's this unexplainable, like, group of emotions that can't be necessarily written out or defined. It can only be experienced. The holidays are coming, and nobody wants to deal with seasonal bugs making their way through the family. That's where Maple comes in. No more scrambling for open clinics during holiday festivities. One membership covers the whole family, making it a gift that keeps on giving this season. And with over a million five-star reviews, Canadians are loving it. Don't let sickness slow down your season.

Download the Maple app today. See a real doctor on your phone in minutes, 24-7. Get Maple. Get well. Sooner. sooner. Let's slow that down because I think grief, when you put the brakes on any emotion, it will come back 50 fold. And I can't imagine a single emotion on the planet that people try to put the brakes on more than grief and no judgment here because me too. And I get it right. It's interesting when I watch you work, Jer, I think one of the things that make you so powerful is your willingness to feel in one second, in one moment for me, for you, for anybody else that you can feel that the depth of despair, the smell of egg salad, the experience of this guy's mad and this

one's sad and this one wants to fucking throw punch you because you didn't get the psalm up on the spreadsheet wall fast enough. And you're like, I know, I know. And there's something so beautiful in this space that is universal, that when you understand it is a range of emotions that are just going to come and that's the only script you have they come and you're like that's what okay this is this is what they said would happen how how can i go from being so angry at the world and god and Buddha or the universe or whatever is in my belief to like being desperately begging them for reprieve to hating my mother-in-law to loving her to being so angry that she left us to how the fuck am I going to do this without like I have never

witnessed like what a gift it is to be a funeral director, a front row seat at watching this. Can you tell me a little bit about this, this job? Everybody's going to need you. Everybody listening today in some capacity is going to need you at some point in their lives. Can you give me a sense of, of not only, I mean, I guess how holy this work is, but like what a gift it is. And, and then also, can you speak to, um, how you survive and maybe you don't, I don't know that for sure. Cause I know I've watched it almost kill you sometimes, but I wonder, tell me about that, you know, how beautiful and magic it can be sometimes. And then how do you navigate it? Yeah. I think something I've, even if I look back, you know, at my entry into funeral service,

you know, so the extended, the extended version of, of where I came from was I didn't stick with funeral service right away. You know, like I did it for about a year, I got out, tried to pursue, you know, the, the, like the university outcome that was also promoted in my, in my family setting. So my first semester at McEwen, I dropped out of four classes and failed my fifth and assured my parents that wouldn't be what I was going to do. Give it a shot, dad. Yeah, exactly. Then I tried the oil field and like I bruised like a peach. So that wasn't a great outcome. I ended up like in the hospital, like with a pretty bad accident in the oil field. And and, you know, funny because like I actually ended up like having a big fifteen hundred pound piece of pipe fall on me and ended up needing surgery. And it was like it was a thing anyway. And this all happened up by Grand Prairie in Northern Alberta. And they, like, I got rushed in, had emergency surgery.

By the time I was awake from that, my parents were there. And that, you know, gave us about a good six and a half hour drive home to reenter this talk about what are you going to do for the rest of your life? And it becomes relevant in this question, because even at that age, like that all happened before the age of 20 and I was like you know barely 20 years old but still had the ability to look at that and think of like out of these experiences I've had over these past few years the space I found most meaningful was when I worked at the funeral home and these wouldn't be the words I had then but I can look back on now now and know that what I was so connected to

was this reality of like, it is, it still fascinates me. Like when I just pause in the moment and like pause and like, and just, just try to absorb how meaningful it is to consider the ways families trust us to join them in the immediate parts of their loss. Like there is nobody else in the world that I'm aware of that has that kind of access to families in the immediate parts of their loss. And, you know, especially when I take that into the really intense environments of when children die or when people we love die by suicide or, you know, when somebody dies unexpectedly. Right. So when when I consider that, it's just like it is like it's it is to me such a it's just so fascinating made me so passionate about truly trying to learn and understand so what does it look like to be helpful in that environment right because we we thrive in predictable environments and there's nothing predictable about the experiences that follow when somebody we love dies right right and so so for me and it's like it's literally a tagline on my death ed website.

It's comfort and predictability. It's right where we find comfort in that. Well, how do we do that? Well, we do that by telling you about the parts of this experience we know are predictable because there's going to be all of these other things we don't know how they're going to go. So let me explain these other parts to you that we do know about. Right. That I'm an expert at, that my staff can help you with,

that we can relieve those parts of the experience to give you the opportunity to have a little bit more emotion in the tank for when the big shit comes up that you weren't expecting. Right. And like, that's the part where it's like, I don't care how big and how tough you are. Nobody is stronger than grief. Right.

Like it will take anybody down. And so, so that part, just like I thrive in that part. And, and I honestly am convicted to like, because I, it's just so important. It's just such an important part of, sorry, Ronnie and Kix are awake um they are they coming through on my microphone can you hear my chihuahuas yeah perfect super sexy yeah perfect um it's nice getting to that heartwarming part of the conversation and then being interrupted by a couple of by by Brooks and Dunn the chihuahuas um so but it is it's just such a meaningful part of my career and it drives me and it allows you to show up in such a full capacity because like just so in tune with with how much that changes the entire trajectory of how that family will

walk through loss for the rest of their lives. Like, and not just them, the kids, the babies, you know, like the everybody's right. And I think this is, this is what has drawn me so much to your work is really this idea, you know, you're just so rich, you're such a good storyteller. And it's like, you know, the moments of, I've never even thought about, you know, my experience of my grandparents and how different they felt when there was somebody at the helm that was like, Hey, come on in. It's okay. Right. How you've walked kids through that and, you know, ask, getting them to ask questions. My favorite part of many of your stories, you know, is when you bring the kids back into the cat. It was so interesting for me historically to think about, you know, seeing a dead body, touching a dead body. What does that look like? Nobody was

there to normalize that because generally speaking, you're the big people are also in their own grief. And so when you can seek out a funeral director and you just become your team, people like you become that regulating other in a crisis situation, because even if you saw it coming, mom was sick for, you know, 15 years with cancer, you're still never ready, nor are you prepared for, right? So what, what's this step? Where do we go? Where do we sit? Where do we stand? Did we get the rights? Like, God, are the songs working? Fuck. Don't, what is wrong with fucking Eddie? He's loaded. Jesus fuck. And you know, to be able to have somebody go like, I got it.

I'm going to find the ladybugs. We're going to handle it out. It's going to be okay. Don't worry about Eddie. We, uh, he's going to be able to have somebody go like i got it i'm gonna find the ladybugs we're gonna handle it out it's gonna be don't worry about eddie we uh he's gonna be okay eddie eddie's gonna sit with me okay yeah i watered down the vodka two hours ago it's gonna be fine and that's truly what you like i think about this i was just thinking about like doing some crisis intervention management here in this province and And, you know, speaking of the organizations about, they often are in that middle state of what do they do in the first 24 to 48 hours. And I think about the role of a funeral director becomes so much that like, I just need somebody to be regulating in this moment. Here's the next three things we're going to think about. Right. I remember when, you know, my mother-in-law died

and the boys called you and you were just like, here's what's going to happen. Right. You can stay for as long as you want. And then they're going to make her to, she's going to go here and she's going to be safe. And I make sure that somebody will look after her, you know? And I've like, I cannot tell you how important that is versus, and I can tell you, cause you know, but like how many times I think about historically when they're like we'll take it we got it we're gonna throw it in the center they're gonna like I know it's it's fascinating to think like how how we've like normalized communicating that as like well they'll go and they'll bring the body back to the funeral home and and whatever right two seconds ago she was my mom right and this is this is what's really important is grief is rooted in

relationship and grief is rooted in relationship is that so for me it's just like and and grief is the extension of the living relationship right you know where like this becomes the space i have the opportunity to still connect with my mom or with my dad or with my child or with my grand ends of life not a relationship. And so, so for us, like as funeral directors, like these people that desire to serve and, and sign up to serve and walk alongside these families, it matters how we learn to talk about that. It matters that we are able to say, regardless of age,

regardless of circumstance, regardless of timing, you know, that there is a difference between being prepared versus being ready those aren't the same thing and so you know the the steps of that to be able to get on the phone with somebody and to be able to say listen like here's what I need you to know like you have whatever time that you need like please don't feel like you need to rush and just know that when you're ready, like you will come and we will be there and we will, we will take care of your mom and we will keep her safe. And these are the steps of what that looks like. Right. And it's like the words I use so often and, and frequently, whether it's with adults or with children is like

care and safe, because this is still their mom. This is still their grandma. this is still their mom this is still their grandma this is still their person right so and and it's it's so neat because like one of the things I'm I'm still somewhat fascinated by is is in these experiences and like you know within the days of the viewing or the funeral or whatever it is and you know my big thing I love to I really love to walk kids through those experiences I found historically kids were the lost voice in grief, like they were, they were protected, you know, meaning like, it was just like, get behind me, I'm going to shield you from all of the hurt that accompanies that these, you know, when people we love die. And the thing that we've put to words is that our goal should not be to remove the emotion from the experience, it should be to remove the fear. And the way that we do that is by giving this comfort and predictability.

Right. Amen. And it's like, that's, we don't have a script for mourning. I don't have a plan on what to do. I, my body comes wired with grief. It does not come wired with how to mourn. And when kids become the forgotten experience, which understandably, listen, nobody, I really want to be clear. Like this is no like, oh fuck, you did it wrong. Generally speaking, if you were in the front row of a funeral with your babies beside you, it's because you're also in a state of grief. And so having the capacity even as you bury your

husband or your son or your mother to be able to then have the wherewithal to say to your baby girl or your 15 year old grandson or whatever, to be like, Hey, how are you feeling too? It is sometimes that's a lot of emotion to ask, particularly if there's some untimely nature and a lot of things that are uncrossed and uncovered in this process. I think it's completely unrealistic. Period. Right. Yeah. I mean, like what an unfair expectation of moms and dads in that moment where in, in almost all of those settings,

like they have their own often closer relationship to, to try to walk through and grieve also. Right. A hundred percent. closer relationship to try to walk through and grieve also, right? So there has to be people around them that are going to be willing to learn what it looks like to do that with them, not necessarily for them, but with them. Yeah. To guide it, to regulate it. And I think you can't tell somebody what to do. You have to show them. And when we speak about this in emotional regulation, you know, it is really that invitation of does anybody have any questions? Do you want to know where grandpa's going to go tonight? Do you want to know what's going to happen? Do you want to, you know, I love that you asked those questions. And I mean, some of the questions that you get are, I mean, do you have any good ones that you've got from some people? not necessarily questions but like what happens when and like so these are the steps like this is this is these are like the steps that i teach about okay in those moments what is required

for people who desire to walk alongside or help others in environments of grief when you get to that point and if you're given that opportunity you have to lead with like an excruciating vulnerability because that's what creates connection. If I become connected to you, I can build trust. If I build trust, we'll the viable steps attached to any age group. So, so like, and I love it because like, and I especially love it with kids because as soon as you get to the point of relationship, it's a game changer. Like we drop our guard and anything can happen at this point in time. And it's just like, it's kind of my favorite thing is what, because moms and dads and grandpas and grandmas aren't prepared for anything to happen in the midst of a funeral setting uh so we had a viewing one night and it was just like from a funeral

director lens it was a 10 out of 10 like it was the kids were all there this lady that had passed away had i think she had eight or nine kids of her own so like by the time we got down to the great grandkids there was like 75 people at this viewing all a part of this nuclear family and uh and i and we had it all set up where i said like is it okay if i do this with the kids yeah like and so like i'm we get everybody in and like we in our funeral home we have this space that is kind of like set up for kids and it's a part of our common area so like everybody's always together anyway so i'm like literally like kneeling on the ground in the toy room with these kids explaining to them how we've been helping take care of their great-grand and why we're here and what we're doing tonight and creating these

opportunities building that relationship with them right and then we bring them in and like it was just like that part of it was just like flawlessly like it went so good like the kids were learning I was looking up the seven-year-olds in the crowd were just dialed in because nobody's ever explained it to them before right so it was just like everybody's learning it's a completely level playing field so we go through all this like we start the viewing and then this lady loved ice cream so we had like an ice cream bar so come out let's have a sundae you know like while we're together so like everybody came out for an ice cream and it was just like, the kids are thriving now. Like we're regulated, we've got food,

we're telling stories, like people are laughing. And you could just start to see like the tension of the children, just like it was just gone by this point in time. And then their personality started to come through. And it's like, what a wonderful tribute to this lady that her, these great grandkids felt safe enough to get to come through. And it's like, what a wonderful tribute to this lady that her, these great grandkids felt safe enough to get to this point. And then it led to this like, really amazing experience of like, there, she also loved Mentos, this lady. And, and so one of the daughters who would have been, I don't know, I'm going to guess like in her 60s, or maybe even her

70s. She goes to her her grandkids would you guys like to put a mentos with great grandma like she loved mentos and right on like because now like we're just excited to do anything right so she gets her like little flock of grandchildren together who were probably like anywhere from like two to seven years old okay and a mixture of these little boys and girls so they all get their mentos and it's like she like gathers them in and she's walking to the front of the chapel to like to bring them up to see great grandma once more and like we're you know I'm right with them and this little girl like just like softly and sweetly is just like where do we put them and like as I

was about to like you know help give her a reply, this little boy pipes up from the back. He goes, just shove it down her throat. She's dead anyways. And this grandma is just like horrified immediately. Right. Like, like doesn't know if she should cry or yell or what to do.

Like, so before like she even had a chance to like respond to this little guy i was like hey listen i'm laughing i'm just like i think it's important you know like he's joking like i could hear it in his voice and number two if he's joking it means he's feel safe which means you did your job as a grandma and like and that is important to know like that and then right away he's like yeah grandma sorry i was just important to know like that. And then right away, he's like, yeah, grandma, sorry. I was just joking. You know, like, and it just like tuck it under her armpit. It's totally fine. Yeah. Yeah. We could just put it in her hands. That would also be appropriate.

So, but it was just, it's just so funny because like, and like, I think of like, I think of that experience and like that family will talk about that forever. And like, and, and as a good memory, like that won't be something that, that tainted the experience of saying goodbye to their mom. It will be like, you know, it will be said from a lens of. Do you remember when Josh wanted to shove it down her throat, the mentos?

I know. Like I, to get, you know, again, as we say, a front row seat to those things, like you are woven into the trajectory of so many people's most difficult chapters. Is there a cost to that for funeral directors, that it's just like I think of anybody that pursues a career um that they love they all come at a cost like all of them yeah and so I don't know that like you know that it would be more than than a lot of other people that feel like it sounds cheesy but like I feel like I found my calling you know in this space like you know and I can um yeah and you know it's I was talking about this off air like before we got on like where um this speaking I'm really loving it it's just it's also a space that I'm really passionate about yeah I forgot to talk about that that you are a speaker yeah which is fine and because it's, and so I was making these moves under the idea that I wanted to pursue that. There's opportunity to pursue that.

Right, to educate people about grief, to hold spaces for it, to stand on stages. I mean do. And, and so, you know, I was moving and orientating myself to try to end up more in that space than at the funeral home, and made moves to do it. And it just the reality is, is they didn't work. And not that it wasn't viable, not that it, you know, couldn't be a thing. It just, and like, I make jokes about like, God's plan, you know, where it's just like, I just don't think I'm done here yet. Right. Where it's like, so the more I try to control the outcome, the more fucked up it gets. So the harder I try to get away, not even get away from, because like, I love what I do, you know, like authentically and like to my core. And, and so it's just like, it's just where I'm

supposed to be right now. And, and that for me is like, that can carry me through. And, and also like there's coupled with, with therapy, like I'm a huge fan of like Hallberg and, and, and have bringing the, bringing the professionals on board to help you unpack. Because the thing that I honestly, I struggled the most with was that I don't struggle with very much about my job. Like, functionally speaking, which made me feel a little like, and the thing that I needed to figure out, there was two concepts that I needed to come to terms with, was how do we normalize these conversations without dehumanizing the topic? Okay. And then as a professional, how do I show up in a way that allows me to be emotionally invested in the people I desire to serve without emotionally attaching myself to their outcome? Okay. That I cannot grieve for

every family that comes to our door. Right. In fact, I can't really grieve for any of them. Now I can show up with compassion and I can be invested and empathy and I can be invested in your grief. But it doesn't make it mine. Right. And so I don't necessarily I mean, I know there are things I do to try to keep that in check. That's a TED talk. We probably don't have time for that today. But so it's just but it it is, is there's,

so there are things that I can do in that space, but that is the biggest concept is just, it's really important for those that desire to show up for people in these environments that hold big emotion to make sure that they know it's not your emotion. Yeah. That, that I can't take that on because as soon as I start to do that, then it comes home with me and it doesn't have my relationships with my wife, with my kids, with your babies. Yes. And, and people ask me this all the time, you know, as a psychologist, you know, or I think about a nurse, a physician, a first responder in any capacity, a human services professional, you know, how do you do it when you hear all the worst stories of the day? And I think, you know, there isn't you, when you go cold to them, the people you serve feel it.

And so I think when we get burnt out in our professions, we're not serving anybody. Us, the people we serve. Where I feel the most effective is when I actually do with my whole body feel with you. And the definition of empathy, you understand, is that I don't have to condone, support, believe anything, but I want to imagine what it must be like to be you in that moment. I'm going to sit with you in that, and then I'm going to give it right back because it's yours. But me feeling with you together, we will then navigate that emotion. And I think, you know, one of the questions I haven't asked you before, and I'm really interested to hear this because I had the opportunity to be in your funeral home a while back. And I'm interested in your take, given all of the people you've seen

leave this earth, where do you stand on spirituality? Where do you stand on God or the afterlife? Do you believe there is one? you um what is your conversation what is your sense of that do you still feel the people that you walk home in your space tell me about i i i do very much believe so like i grew up in a very like pretty structured setting when it came to religion um like i'm i'm i was raised pentecostal and that is as 80s christian as it gets um like they some would argue they were the most christian of all the christians um the super christians on yeah and honestly that's like nate bargatsky jokes about that he goes like and he he like he's this comedian and he says that he's like I'm pretty sure Jesus yeah I'm pretty sure Jesus Christ himself had more fun than me growing up um Nate Bargatsky might be the funny you and me and Nate Bargatsky

in a room would be ideal so much and it's just like it's so like that that was my setting and so now one of the thing that like drove empathy for me and and and that would be the word but like again not that I would have used it at at 18 19 20 years old getting into this career but when I worked in Calgary like the funeral home that I worked for like we served like upwards upwards of 3000 families a year. And you were serving Buddhist families, Sikh families, Jewish families, like atheists, Protestants, like any, everybody, right. And so what became humans, and what became so important to me, and what I learned, and it really kind of created a new foundation for me was it doesn't matter what I necessarily believe in or or who or what I call my higher power or God is that it's just that there's a

mutual respect that we believe in something and I can join you in that space and I don't necessarily have to understand it and it doesn't have to become my thing you know but it's just like I think what I learned about that spirituality was just like there are so many wonderful parts these different world religions and different views and it's like why can't we just take the best parts of this and the best parts of this and the best parts of this right you know that and so so I I moved into a place and like bringing it back to the question of, for me now, I still believe there's something bigger than us. And for me, I would still refer to that as God. Do you feel spirit in your funeral home? Do you feel it in settings?

Do you, does anything ever, do you sort of go like, oh, well, that was interesting. Like, yeah, for sure. Like for sure like for sure it's just it's such an unexplainable experience you know where it's just you're just you there's like you just get these goosebumps or you just get these like you know we had flickering lights for a little while at the feeder home that just couldn't be explained by any electrician or you know like it just or and even more maybe like like when I think of like indigenous communities you know there's such a um like eagles are a very important symbol in in a lot of those communities and faith and

like on more than one occasion driving from you know from the place of the funeral to the cemetery which could be a 10 kilometer drive like on more than one occasion there was an eagle circling where the funeral was and then like followed the procession all the way to the cemetery and you're going like well how do you explain that like like it can't be explained right or I think of like my own experience of we were on a holiday once and this was about 10 years after my grandma passed away. And I was just, I got up ahead of my family and it was just like packing up from camping. And I thought, I'm just going to go get a coffee and fuel up.

And just like, I started driving, I'm looking up at this mountain and I'm just thinking like for a split second, I thought I should call my grandma. Like she would love to hear about this, this experience we're having as a family and that it was just like and then I was in the in the most intense parts of my grief 10 years later driving down this road in Revelstoke falling like a two-year-old that bit his lip and this poor guy at the light next to me was just working so hard to not make eye contact because he just had no idea what was going on in my truck and and then it was just like so it's funny i got home and from that and i was telling my dad about it it was his mom and uh and like i laugh and i embrace these moments because like first of all i think it's important to know like that was the most i felt my grandma's presence in years you know like i felt her and uh and then found out that that day that that happened they were like they were actually

cleaning out my grandparents' c-can of like stuff and it was just like I was like yeah like how do you ignore those things right I mean yeah can't explain them I can't you know so it's just I and to me what it all engineers into is just that it's not the end that that they're still somewhere you know like they're not mine to hold anymore but they're not gone and like that's so important i think i think they're and like this is just an opinion this is there's no science behind this i think there's very few authentic atheists in the world because when you get into a space of grief and somebody you love dies, can you imagine trying to grieve and mourn with being convicted to the idea that that's the actual end for that person? Yeah, yeah. I think it would be interesting, you know, the data around that would be really interesting in terms of the complication of grief. Because I know there's a number of people who don't believe there's anything that

comes after. But, you know, it's interesting. I have read some data around, you know, when you get in a crisis situation, whether you believe, you know, in your most regulated state or not, in your dysregulated state, you need to. You call out to an unknown entity, please make this stop, please help, please do these things. And so, you know, I, I think that there's, you know, lots of incidents to suggest one way or the other, but it's, but I think I, I, you know, the older I get, the more I need, we're never going to know till the end, whatever that is like anyways. And so I just often think like, why fucking not? Like I got to believe that there's a bigger reason. I got to believe that, you know, so many times and I've had so many conversations lately. I'm in this season of like trying to understand spirit and spirituality and like the soul and what that means. And, you know, speaking of mediums and psychics and, you know, I'm not so sure where I sit on all of those spectrums, but the fact that you are bigger,

this world is bigger than you and that you can impact it so greatly by a smile, a nod, a word, an engagement. When you think about, or you watch somebody, you say the name of somebody who buried their child, or, you know, you engage in this process of remembering together, it feels so much more holy than just this moment. And so there's got to be, you know, I think anyway. I think so too. And it's funny, like I legitimately was just in a version of this conversation over the weekend. A friend of mine died last summer

and I went and had coffee with his mom and his dad and and we were talking about this and I was talking told him about my year and you know this concept of the more I try to control the outcome you know the worse it gets kind of thing or the more out of control it becomes and uh and I think like that's the whole idea of this faith is like when you give into this part of life and again, like not referencing a specific faith or religion, but when you, when you finally get to this place of life where you just like start to like, to just release yourself to this,

this reality that we can work hard and we can be intentional about our actions. But at the end of the day, like, it's just, it's not up to us. Like how it goes isn't necessarily up to us, but that's tough like to give ourselves into that space. Right. Because it's not predictable and it's not, it's not any of the things that we want. And like this, this was a family I grew up with. And so, you know, and it was funny, they referenced scripture, but it was a scripture along the up with and so you know and it was funny they they referenced

scripture but it was a scripture along the lines of like you know basically the idea was like just just sit in the stillness and trust right and trust me and uh and and it was just like and I just said it was like well I have some issues with that statement. Like it's a, I don't sit still well, because like, if I truly sit still and I sit and I allow myself to be quiet, well, then these other things start to serve. It gets noisy. It gets noisy. It's noisy when it gets quiet around you. Right.

And then that leads us to like,ernie talking about like discomfort over resentment yeah you know and like now you start to reapply that internally that it's just like but when we sit in the stillness when we when we address the noise when we sit in the discomfort of uncomfortable conversation whether that's with ourselves or people we care about it becomes the tool that removes the opportunity for there to be long-term resentment attached to that part of your life. A hundred percent. And I think this permission in this age, you know, our demographic to start to have conversations that separate religion and spirituality, they've come so close together for so many of us, right? And so it's like, I'm out, like, and even Asher, our oldest, who is a 13 year old thinker caught in a like 72 year old body. He said to me, you know, again, he, I was

raised Catholic and you know, his dad was raised Lutheran. And so there's lots of conversations about church and you know, all these things. But he said to me this week and he mortified his sister. He was like, I'm out on God. I said, sorry, I'm out on God. I'm like, okay. So I'm, I'm unclear. I don't believe, I don't believe there is a God. Like you cannot tell me right now that somebody parted waters and that like across multiple continents, this story was correctly written down multiple times, put on paper that then washed away. And then they had to find another rock to write it on. Mom, I'm not in it. Like there, it just isn't a thing. And so then Olivia's like, what? You don't believe there's a God? And she's like pulling out a cross. And I was like, just to say, woo, everybody. And so I think it's like, he's like, no, I think there's like a spirit,

but I don't think there's, I'm like, I love that even, you know, this is something that all of us will contemplate. All of us have an opinion on because we're all going to be faced with it. We all will have to say goodbye to somebody or something. And is this the end is just such a quintessential question. And when you have somebody in your space that can just hold space for that, not tell you, you think this is okay. You get seven days, you're going to rise. You might get caught in purgatory. And then I read this story where like, if you don't do six swivels with three gold rings around your left pinky finger, you're fucked. Like, I think there's a lot of like those conversations,

like I was talking to my mom, you you know the other day and she's like i went to confession and so now i feel like i could die and i was like well game off like are you trying to tell me like mix up the egg salad because i'm unclear like the rules that are in the bones of so many people also i think play off in this state of us transitioning into this conversation where do we have to abide by, you know, the doctrines of religion that many of us are so burnt by, you know, speaking as a white woman, I don't even get the, you know, but if I think about indigenous peoples and the connection to the church and like what this has meant to so many

people, like, I think it's complicated this grief process exponentially because, you know, we often align funerals with God, with church, with a service. And I think one of the things I love the most about you that you really normalized in this grief space is that you can do whatever the fuck you want to, you know, from, you know, riding somebody around in the back of the truck, to bringing a beer keg to the celebration of life, to being out in a field circled with eagles and, you know, burning a bra. All of those things are how you mourn somebody. All of those things is where grief can be held is, is, is my, and you know, what would you say to that? Yeah, I just like, I'm deeply connected to, especially like thinking for your son, right? Like I get it.

Because you know what? It's hard to cognitively walk your way through the steps of religion and find many parts of it to be very believable. So like the questions that he has in that space just make sense to me the bible the quran that like like any the right book of mormon like i anyway keep going yeah and so i think for for that like it just again it's like wow that makes sense to me like i understand those questions and and have a lot of them for myself right and so like i think the part of that where it's just like that is important to address or the part that becomes important to talk about is just because oftentimes historically those parts of religion were fear-based teachings right if you do this then you get this if you don't do this then this is what then then you get this. If you don't do this, then this is what, then, then you're all going to

hell. Then prepare. I hope you like hot weather. Cause you are going to burn for eternity, right? Like welcome to Pentecostal 1987. Um, like impure thoughts, impure thoughts. Holy fuck. Oh my God. Oh Jesus. Like how does any 14 year old Pentecostal boy survive is what I'd like to know. It's over. It's over. You just, you just hope that when it comes time for you to die, it's the day after confession, because it's the only way we're getting to heaven. Um, so I like, I get it. And it's just like, honestly, like that was the part for me that had a big impact on what

changed my views and experiences with religion versus spirituality was, was the part for me that had a big impact on what changed my views and experiences with religion versus spirituality was, was the idea that anytime there was crisis, well you need more religion in your life. And I was like, I don't know if that's the answer. And so, you know, but then bringing it again back into the space of grief and, and where I just think there's an importance to it is to me, whether you believe, whether you don't

believe, whatever you believe in, it's just, if there's anything that provides you even a moment of relief in the midst of losing a child, fucking hang on to it for dear life. So if there is, if there is a God that you feel like you belong to or answer to, if there is a faith or a spirituality that brings you peace in the midst of this incredible tragedy, or these incredibly difficult things that you're going through, and if it just offers you just a millisecond of sunlight, why would you give up on that? And even if there's no middleman, like a woman, like think about like, if you, if you can drive in your car and still talk to your mama, do it. If a song comes on and you think, thanks for the sign, dad, then you feel it. That is your sign. If you find a dime, if you find a thing at Lori's thing is ladybugs. I know so many people, you know, you have this,

it's a rainbow, it's a star. It's so whatever the deal is, oftentimes those that's what morning looks like because it is that connection to that story. And so I would say 150,000%. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, and like, and when those things happen, like when, when they show up for me like let them show up because like who I just I just desire to feel their continued presence in my life you know and and like this just this was a part of this conversation this weekend too was um my friend that that had passed away um he was big into into dirt biking and uh and he bowen this last weekend uh we were at a friend's place yeah so my son this past weekend we were at a friend's place and it was just like he just happened to have like a little kid's dirt bike and he pulled it out and it was blue and white just like what levi rode and bowen hopped on and he just loved it and i was

like watching him ride and it was just like like just loved it. And I was like watching him ride. And it was just like, like, I just felt like Levi was there watching him ride this bike with me. And it was just like, and I thought like, like how great, how great that my friend was able to be with me today. Right. Gosh, I love it. Yeah. And I, you know, you know, my Ria and I, and I often think about, you know, Nevin. I got to see her daughter, you know, anyways, one was playing hockey. So Nevi was there and she had decided that day to bring her mom's purse. And I don't know, you know, they still had it. So, you know, in her wallet, you know, and I remember this wallet.

I remember the thing. I'm like, why today? And, you know, dad said she would have never I mean, she's never carried Rhea's purse before. And so, you know, there's just her Nevin and I sitting there watching her brother play hockey and she pulls this out. And I'm like, it takes my breath away. And I just see so much of her in that little girl. And I can just, I feel her sitting right beside us. Like, look at her, you know, I love those moments.

It's tangible. Like it is like, it's just, it's To me, it's a real thing. And I also think it's possible. You can work hard enough to avoid those experiences that I think they stop showing up. So that's that spirituality part. And you stop seeing them. Yeah. And I think that's a respect thing. Like, that's how I look at that, where I think, you know what, it's obviously too painful for, for me to continue to try to be here with you. So it's just time, like, but that to me, that's magic because it's not explainable.

Like I can't, I can't give you any kind of, of curriculum to help you better understand why or why not those things are happening. So it's just like, I've just given myself to this idea that it's just, it's just possible. Like it can happen. Oh, Jeremy Allen. I, you know, you are magic and every time I get to talk, uh, I'm just reminded. So if, you know, if you're listening to our voices, if you actually lasted this whole hour with us, uh, wherever you are, drop your shoulders. Cause you didn't land here by accident. I want you

to just feel if you are so inclined, the surrounding of the people who, uh, have been so important to you and may no longer be on this planet. Cause I, I just really, you landed here for a reason today and, and I couldn't be more grateful for, for you, for the people you've walked home. And certainly today, Mr. Jeremy Allen, to you, to your work, to the people that you influence, how you've changed my perception, how you've helped my babies, the people I love the most, uh, your gift. So thank you from the bottom of my soul for doing what you do, where, um, I'm going to put this all in the show notes, but the best place to find you. Yeah. Uh, social medias, like I would say, Instagram, Facebook, those are, and like, and to just be transparent, what that space is for me, it's just my journal

that I share with the world. Like, you know, death, that has just become this what that space is for me. It's just my journal that I share with the world. Like, you know, death ed has just become this place that I just get to like, write about these feelings and experiences and emotions that have accompanied these parts of my life. And I just want to let the world in on it because I think this grief, it just deserves a seat at our table. It does. It does. And you provide it so beautifully. And so death ed, Jeremy Allen, the Gregory Funeral Home, all of those things we're going to just put in there. If you need a place to land or you need some resources or, you know, a consultation, any of those kind of things, we lean on Gerald a lot around here. So I'm glad that you got to meet a little more of this community today because we all need you. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And yeah, thanks. Maybe, maybe we can bring this into, I think we've talked about having a pit party grief seminar at some point in time. Oh my God. Let's just put it out to those higher powers.

Do you hear us? Do you hear us? Well, let's make it happen. And in the meantime, yes, then we'll just go on the road as we always talk that we're going to do. But anyway, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And for the rest of you today, wherever you are in this moment, hanging out with us, drop your shoulders. And thank you for being here. And I cannot wait to meet you right back here, hopefully again, same time, same place next week. Hey, after this episode, if you're thinking about what do I do? Where do I go to

do the work? Where do I land? I'd love to listen to Jodi's voice more. Gosh, I wish she had a course where I could just do the work with her on my own time whenever I'm ready guess what I created it's called feeling seen the course and it's so fucking good I gotta tell you that it's really good uh if you want to um have a place to land where uh you want to think a little bit more you know we talked about some really important things on this episode and if you want to dive a little deeper with me uh you can go to drjodekarrington.com and check out my courses. Feeling Seen is one that I think I created for everybody who wants to just sink in a little more in this time of disconnect. So go there.

I'll put a link in the show notes and I'll meet you there when you're ready. The Everyone Comes From Somewhere podcast is produced by the incredibly talented and handsome team at Snack Labs. Mr. Brian Seaver, Mr. Taylor McGilvery, and the infamous Jeremy Saunders. The soundtracks that you hear at the beginning of every episode were created by Donovan Morgan. Our executive producer is Marty Piller. Our PR big shooters are Des Veneau and Barry Cohen. Our agent, my manager, Jeff Lowness from the Talent Bureau. And emotional support, of course, is provided by, relatively speaking, our children. For the record, I am a registered clinical psychologist in Alberta, Canada.

The content created and produced in this show is not intended as specific therapeutic advice. The intention of this podcast is to provide information, resources, education, and maybe even a little bit of hope. you