Unlonely with Dr. Jody Carrington - The Opposite of Addiction is Connection - Ryan Haddon

Episode Date: November 7, 2024

What if self-discovery was less about finding answers and more about asking the right questions? In this episode, Dr. Jody Carrington and Ryan Haddon dive deep into the journey of spiritual awakening, addiction recovery, and the healing power of connection. Ryan shares raw experiences of confronting identity, embracing community, and exploring therapeutic tools like hypnotherapy and meditation. They discuss the essential role of self-regulation, somatic awareness, and gratitude in creating safe, fulfilling relationships. Together, they unpack how tuning into our bodies and practicing self-care can transform our relationships, reshape family dynamics, and foster a sense of inner peace. This conversation illuminates the often nonlinear path to personal growth and the courage it takes to find harmony within.For more Ryan:https://www.ryanhaddon.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at one you need, whenever you need it. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. At the beginning of every episode, there will always be time for an acknowledgement. You know, the more we do this, people ask, why do you have to do the acknowledgement in every episode? I got to tell you, I've never been more grateful for being able to raise my babies on a land

where so much sacrifice was made. And I think what's really critical in this process is that the ask is just that we don't forget. So the importance of saying these words at the beginning of every episode will always be of utmost importance to me and this team. So everything that we created here today for you happened on Treaty 7 land, which is now known as the center part of the province of Alberta. It is home of the Blackfoot Confederacy, which is made up of the Siksika, the Kainai, the Pekinni, the Tatina First Nation, the Stony Nakota First Nation, and the Métis Nation

Region 3. Our job, our job as humans is to simply acknowledge each other. That's how we do better, be better, and stay connected to the good. Well, hello there, dear humans. Thank you for joining me again for another episode of this season, The Unlonely Podcast. This has become my favorite thing to do these days. And as we step into this episode, wherever you are right now, just drop your shoulders with me. This is, the word sacred comes to mind when I think about this episode, the honor that I had to sit in front of this human named Ryan Hadden. We taped this interview live in New York City. And when I stepped into the presence of this woman, I could feel her beautiful energy. She has been on a

journey. And she is the daughter of one of the most famous supermodels in the world. Dale Haddon has done work globally for decades and just set the world on fire in her own right. And she has a daughter who has also done the most remarkable things in her life and has walked through many challenges. So, um, grew up in the LA Hollywood world and, um, engaged in being dating and married to some pretty famous actors. And then, um, just went down a really dark path that she talks about in this, uh, in this episode about how, um, I think inviting it can be to lose yourself in drugs and alcohol and what that's taught her. She has been on a path of whole wellness for over 20 years and she's piecing

sort of lived experiences and learnings together to continually evolve her practice. She now channels her expertise into a whole career of transforming the lives of both individual clients and professional organizations globally. Um, she's the mom of four and married to a rock star right now named Mark Blue Co. Uh, he's a rock star because he also is, uh, in his own right, just a remarkable human. And so we talk a lot about all of those things and, you know, in our conversations prior to this interview, you know, talks about she's writing two books simultaneously. And she's really just so insightful. And I cannot wait for you to learn from her. And I just felt so at peace during this interview and just sitting in her wisdom. I hope you feel it too. Welcome in to this conversation. I've thought so much about this conversation.

I have so many questions. I've spent some time with the people who love you the most, including your mom and your cousin. And I am just so honored that you would jump in with me today. Hypnotherapist, a walker of people, spiritual mentor, guide. Ryan, tell me where this all started for you. How this journey of being very intuitive, did it start out that way? Have you always been that kind of kid? How did you get here? What a great question. And first of all, thank you for having me. Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here. I too have thought about this conversation and I'm right where I want to be right in this moment. So thank you. Yeah. You know, I don't, I'm not sure exactly when, but I think that somewhere in my mid-teens, I started to think about a spiritual connection. I had a mother that was very spiritual, so she would like throw little seeds that would germinate.

Yes. And then probably in my middle teens, I had a step-parent pass away. Okay. And he left me with this question, what are we doing here? What is the purpose of this? You can just be here and then you're gone. And quite a violent death. Yes. So that was a tricky, I can imagine, as a little human.

There was a sudden, right? Death is so common and for so many of us, we don't talk about nearly enough. But for that little girl to try to make sense of that i bet there was big questions that came for sure yeah for sure and what that did is it set me on a path of seeking okay and it led me to a meditation teacher no yes in your teens in my teens in like 15 16 i started looking out a window and seeing the moon and then weeping like these i was having an awakening now i know that i didn't know that then I thought I was losing my mind. Yeah. And I would feel like I'd go cross country skiing on my, in my aunt's farm. And I'd feel this like sense of wonder.

And I didn't know where it came from. It was like something was just sliding in. And so now I know this was part of the preparing me for this moment, this spiritual awakening that I was going to have with this teacher. And my mom bribed me to come to this retreat, this meditation retreat, because who wants to do that at 16, 17, go to a whole weekend. I was in Los Angeles. I was in Paris and I was living in LA and she bribed me to come to upstate New York. Wow. It was a great story. And then I got there, I got violently sick, which I know now is like a purification. The body was like letting go of things. Body keeps the score, doesn't it? Totally does. And that's what happened. I walked through the threshold of that. And then I sat for meditation. I had a lot of resistance,

a lot of mental chatter, which happens when we meditate, right? Everyone thinks it's going to go quiet. It does not. They're like, think of nothing. And I think of everything. That's right. The brain's off-casting. It's the ego trying to pull you off of meditation because it wants to keep doing, it doesn't want to be. My ego works so good. Right. So that's what happened. Yeah. And then I sat there and then I had this very classic Kundalini, which is awakening, which is the fire up the spine, the heart opening up, weeping tears and feeling like this incredible connection to meditation, to myself, to this teacher, to the community. And I actually at 17 went off to India and lived in India for the, my mom was so great. She was so open-minded and she knew this was the next, you know,

journey for me to be taking at that age. So thankfully she was open to it. And so I finished high school in India in this wonderful ashram. Yes. At a time when people didn't do yoga, like it wasn't, I mean, this was like 86, 87. This is deeply so critical for you. Not something that just because all the kids were doing it. No, no. In fact, everyone thought I was losing my mind. I called my friends back in LA. They're like, you're being, you know, they didn't know what was up. Yes, completely. Yes. Yes. But I knew I felt that connection. So intuitive from a very early age, very connected to this space in you that you could come and go inside. I was learning to do that. I was learning to have value on that because that's not a value. It wasn't, you know, I'd lived

in Paris. I had lived in Los Angeles. These are towns that are all about who you know, what you're wearing, what you're doing, very, very people, places and things. Exactly. And so here I was forging a different path, but I was trusting this, this awakening, this, this connection in the heart. And so that led me there. And then I stayed there for several years. I took my GED. I took my SATs in Mumbai. It was Bombay at the time. Yeah. And then I went to college after that. And so that was when I started to feel a bit of a crunch. Okay. Because you go from this expansive community that has value on meditation and the inner life and scriptures and service. It's also a lot of service. I could just see the freedom in you as you speak about even, you know, bringing your

body back into that time. Hey, did it feel safe there? Absolutely. Yes. Yes. It was wonderful, wonderful people, wonderful community, all giving back to other people. So that was, that was, it was just, we were all very, very aligned. And then going to college was a whole different thing. Back home? Back, I went to college, I went all very, very aligned. And then going to college was a whole different thing. Back home? Back, I went to college. I went to Boston University. Okay.

So I started studying communications. Wow. And that was like trying to put two worlds together. And that really felt like a struggle. Okay. That was the first time that I sort of felt like a fish out of water. Yeah. And felt like, how do I bring this whole experience that's true for me and bring it into a place where the people around me don't value that also.

Yes. Right. And it was about partying and it was about this and that. And that's, that was really, really hard. I want to say that was like one of the first biggest struggles I had in my life at that time. Yeah. Could you feel it?

I could. Okay. Yeah. But it was more powerful. It was. And I couldn't hang on to what I had. And it made me start to doubt the, the integrity of what I had gained in India, you know, cause I was like, well, if I can't hold it here, then, then what is it? You know? And so that, that I felt really

turned inside out. And, um, some part of my twenties, I was one of those people that their whole life I was told you can do anything. You can be anything. And that's, that's a huge burden to carry. Yes, it can be expanding, but it also felt like pressure. And I didn't have, you know, everyone around me, my mother, the different people that I dated, all this is, I'm going past college. They all had a real clear sense of their path forward. And I didn't see it. So I graduated with a degree in communications. I did some on-air things. I did Good Morning America.

I was working as a producer, like a junior producer. I was doing all these other things behind the scenes. I was at McNeil-Lehrer on PBS, like really good news programs. But I didn't feel that spark. I didn't feel that passion for it. And meanwhile, everyone around me had that. And it felt like I have this pressure. I have this burden of potency of potential. Something is not aligned here. Yeah. And I couldn't figure it out. Yeah. And so what

happened is I feel like combination of feeling like I'd fallen off the beam a little bit spiritually and then feeling like I couldn't find my way forward. Yeah. It pushed me into addiction. And that's where it was like that dark night of the soul of like, what am I doing here? What's real? What's true? And, um, again, in these like very, like dating these very powerful people. So feeling like if I can't find my own power, then I'll saddle up close to someone else who has found theirs and maybe I'll get it you know osmosis maybe get it and I was also in awe of their excellence too you know so it was exactly so then and we know it doesn't work like that not necessarily it's got to start here that's right that's right and so and then I feel like I had some other things from childhood that I hadn't unpacked. And so it all kind of was like this combustible situation. And then you throw the kerosene of addiction onto that fire

and it just sort of imploded. Okay. And were you, was that all at the time when you were becoming a mother as well? It was, that was late, a little bit later on. Um, so I met my partner at the time, the father of my, my two children, my first two children. And we were sober together. It was this wonderful connection together. And we had God at the center of all things. And I really felt this tangible experience of a practical day-to-day God, not in an ashram, not in these exalted meditative states, but just day to day showing up, creating this

beautiful co-creating this life together with these kids. And then I had this insane thought that I have all this now. Why can't I have a glass of wine with dinner? Why not? This will just a glass of wine with dinner. I didn't have this long run of addiction. It was very short. Yeah. So I could just do this. You know, why not? This is what people do here. Right. You know, it is a sign of achievement. It's a social lubricant. Yes. And it's what everyone did. And I thought, you know, why not? This is what people do here. Right. You know, it is a sign of achievement. Yes. And it's what everyone did. And I thought, you know, maybe I'd been working my whole life to have this stability in this partnership with these children, with this place I was, I found myself in my life. I felt some purpose for the first time being a mother,

being married to someone who was, you know, I was holding down the home. We had to, um, we were partners in a family. And then I had this thought that I could do this. And that thought led to full-blown, absolutely crazy, butt-to-the-wall addiction. And it was just public. It was humiliating. And it just kept going.

And the bottom kept dropping deeper and deeper. And did I want to be with my kids? Of course I did. So the shame of being a mother and not being able to access my kids so little, it was just horrific. You know, the shame, the, the, just the pain of that. Especially, I think what is so fascinating is that you had access to the best parts of yourself so clearly already. And oftentimes people don't, I mean, this is my understanding, generally speaking of addiction, you know, the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection. That's what the latest research would tell us. And you had that connection at one point and lost access to it. Yeah, that's right. And in this place where like, I can imagine,

even if it's possible, like the pain is double because you know, in your heart, what it feels like to be back there and you could see how far you were from it. Yeah. It was an absolute dark night of the soul that way. And feeling like I had fallen off the path and feeling like, oh, it was just a nightmare. And that would, that feeling would fuel the addiction. So it was, it was a spirit feeling spiritually bereft. That's what it felt like. I got it. And I think that the public nature of that, you know, as you're listening to this, I mean, people will Google you. I mean, you're married to somebody who's very successful in this moment. This isn't just your, your, you're doing this behind the scenes. You are very public in this process. So even if the self-doubt is there, I'm sure the public access also fueled that sort of sense of like, look at this disaster.

Did that come or that wasn't? No, because the denial is so thick. You think you're fooling everyone. Yes. That's the insanity of it. Yes. You think that you have your shit tight. You think that you're like, you know, I just know.

And then I would have moments of clarity. I'd be like, I think they know, you know? But it didn't stop me. And that's to show the humbling nature of addiction. You can't just get off that merry-go-round when you choose to. It's not just a moment of clarity. It takes many, many moments. You can't just stop. Isn't that so true? It's not willpower. I mean, it's not willpower. I mean, let's be very clear about that because I feel like so many people that we, you know, I talk to in my practice, you know, they lose access to their children or their parents or the people they love, their partners. And they're like, am I not enough for you? Yes, that's right.

I cannot. So obviously you love the substance more than you love me. And it's that that can be so far from the truth. Yes, it feels like that. I understand why it feels like that. I understand why it feels like that. But when you're inside it, it again, in a deeper, more profound way. And so it didn't matter how, like I said, how many public shamings there were. It didn't matter that people would confront me. I would take note of that when people around me would say, this is what's happening and I know what's happening. Those are the, that's the best thing you can say. Honestly,

the pleading, the bargaining, none of that works. It's I know what you're doing. Don't think you're fooling me. I love you. I'm here for you. When you're ready, let me know. Because then that person's just got to keep doing research until they get to that place. So what ended up happening is that I would send out these little prayers, these little sparks. Like, if you're there, help me. If you're there, help me.

I'd have moments of clarity. And then finally that did happen. I would say 18 months from the day that I decided, let me. I'd have moments of clarity. And then finally that did happen. I would say 18 months from the day that I decided, let's have a glass of wine with dinner. So it was a short run, but it was an intense run. And thankfully my kids were really little. And thankfully I had a childcare. So they were safe. Yep. But still it was just, I wasn't around, you know, I was checked out in many, many ways. So after that, they, as these things are want to do between two people that are, you know, take the lid off of all the shadows inside, which is what alcohol does. It takes away all the masks, all the personalities, and it just leaves you with this, the trauma. It leaves you with the

unhealed parts that are just exposed, like live wires. And so you put a relationship of two people doing that together and it's just going to be a disaster. So that is what happens. It gives access to the best parts of each other. Completely. Don't you? Completely. Yeah. So there was an event in particular that happened. And after that, I got sober and I didn't want to get sober. Oh my got sober. And I didn't want to get sober. Oh, my God, yes. I didn't want to get sober. I wanted to go to this fancy place

on the hill to get sober. They didn't have room for me. So they put me in the shithole. And I was like, don't you know who I am? I'm not going to the shithole. Yeah. But that's where I ended up. And it was the perfect place for me. My higher power, exactly what I needed. And I had an incredible counselor was like, do you want this or don't you want this? And I remember there was a voice inside me still trying to like find the exit. Like, no, I'm going to get in that car and I'm leaving. But I found myself saying, yes, I'm going to stay. So these are these windows of grace that we all have on our timelines where we can either crawl through or we shut it back down again.

Do they happen all the time? I think they do. Okay. When I look back, there were many moments of them. Of course we have free will. We get, we shoot, we're choosing. And in that moment, the window opened and I climbed through. Wow. And so being clear helps being regulated helps to see those moments. Do you think the most awakened among us are so open to the windows that are available because we all have them. And when we're so tied up in our own self-doubt or self-loathing at which the noise

that is present today, like no other time in history, I wonder about our capacity to see those windows. Do you think that that is something that has just been so dramatically affected in this last generation? I don't know. I think that we're spiritual beings. And I think in essence, we have this spark, we have this light and it's stronger than alcoholism. It's stronger than social media, the algorithm. So everything, it just is. And I think ultimately, you know, I had put in this time with my connection to my own, to myself, to my soul. And I feel like it's almost like I put money in the bank. Yes. And so that showed up for me. I think all those prayers, all that intention around growing along spiritual lines,

um, showed up for me in that moment. And so I said yes, when I could have said no. Okay. So that's why I say it's grace. It's unknowable. It's a, it's, it's not something we can nail down and say, you know, some people have it. Some people, I don't know why it happened. I'm so grateful that it did because I had options. Yeah. And then I continue every day. I mean, I'm coming up on 21 years. November. Sobriety. Yep.

11, 11. That's amazing. And in these last 20 years, you have created the most beautiful chapter, the next chapter. Tell me about that. Well, that's the thing that happened that I think is so fabulous that's why all these ingredients are part of what make up who we are and how we're going to show up in purpose and for me here I was banging around going like I don't know what I'm supposed to do I don't know what my purpose is but because I went through that particular darkness what part of getting

part of holding on to my recovery was learning how to give it to another woman and help her out of that moment when she crawled through the window of grace and to be that person on the other side, reaching my hand out and saying, this is what worked for me. This is this formula. This is this way. These are these steps to be able to, you know, connect with a real connection that you have, that you can live day in and day out. How can you let go of the past? How can you take care of your character defects that are running your life? Where can you make amends to people? How do you show up day to day in spirit? So there's this incredible blueprint. And because I had got it and I was so grateful for it, I was able to pass it on to somebody else. And then that was the thing that I started seeing that made my heart sing was working

one-on-one with another woman. And that's where I was like, the thing I've been looking for is right here in this little pocket. Yeah. Of just sitting with another woman, helping her sift through her pain, her darkness, and bringing her to the light the way that someone had done for me. Do you think there's any concern about, and I often worry about this, that, that wounded healing the wounded, what is the line between that? You know, cause I often, I get that question all the time, you know, what's your trauma history? How do you do this? And like, listen, all of us have a story. Yeah. When you've been so deep as you would describe into that place, was there ever any

concern for you that it would trigger your own trauma? Have you ever sort of worried about, you know, when people sort of say, I hear this all the time, you know, like I have been through it, so I'm going to walk through it with another person, right? What is the line between how necessary is it to be doing your own work before you step into, right? Because I don't know about you, but I, you know, the Wounded Warriors Association, I love the, the concept of all of it. I love the, I get it, right? I feel it so I can do it. Well, how necessary is it to not project your own work, your own experience on those of other people doing the same thing? What have you noticed in that space? I think that when it comes to alcoholism, I'm not treating trauma. I'm treating, I'm meeting someone in that place? I think that when it comes to alcoholism, I'm not treating trauma. I'm treating, I'm meeting someone in that place where I've walked through the same, you know, on the same

fires, the same coals. And this is what's worked for me. We're not therapists. We're not, in fact, we say go to therapy, go to the, go to these other things. This is just taking someone through the steps and it's been handed down. It's worked for a hundred years, you know? Yeah. One of the most thousands, millions, but for a hundred years, it's been working this way. It's worked for a hundred years, you know? Yeah. One of the most thousands, millions, but for a hundred years, it's been working this way. It has a great success rate, you know? So, I mean, I'm not here to promote that. I'm just here to talk about what I did and I stuck to what I knew and what felt comfortable to me. And when I didn't feel like I could meet them in that place, I'd say, go to someone else who can. So it's like, we're really just staying in our lane and that we're not like therapists, how regulating that must be. And so oftentimes, we talk a lot about this place of

being able to regulate another human, okay, so the most I think successful place is, you know, you and I've talked about this briefly, about being emotionally regulated becomes the place where you have access to create the healthiest relationships. It's got to be lonely, in the places where you felt so dysregulated. The dark night feels like even the description of that is a lonely place. And if you're seeking in that place to sort of serve another, I can't imagine you would be effective, you know? Yeah. Yes. When you come out of the dark night and using that to create community and connection, That's how healing happens in this

space. It does. And that's what met me was a community. It was a community of other women. It was a community of women who'd walked through the same fires that I had, who turned to the same solutions that I had turned to and tools that were blunt and that were self-harming to be able to cope, to be able to manage. And it's like, I could have only heard it through that filter. I couldn't have heard it on a couch with a therapist who hadn't walked through what I had at that time. So, and then obviously once I got stable, then I could go back into the past and unpack

that with someone who was, who could do that, you know? So I think we have to like find that higher ground first. Like that's worked for me. Okay. And I could only hear it through the lens of someone else who'd walked through what I had. So it was like that counselor that showed up, she was in recovery herself. So she knew how the mind of an alcoholic works. She knew how about the obsessions. She, she could describe them. And when I saw myself in her and I understood, wow, I'm not unique. I'm not special. That when I saw myself in her and I understood, wow, I'm not unique. I'm not special. That's part of the mindset around alcoholism too, is that I'm special. I'm unique. It's not me. I'm a victim. I'm a murderer. Everybody else does this, but not me.

Exactly. And so when you get that common ground, creating community, seeing yourself in others in that way, it's incredibly healing. It really is. And I like that idea that that is the door into it. I mean, I think about this with all the patients that I see, you know, it's, it's this idea when you can understand when you feel seen in a moment, then the vulnerability becomes a place where you can then do the deepest work. That's right. Yeah, that's right. And hearing other women be vulnerable and share at a group level, the places where their drinking had taken them, where their addiction had taken them. And then you start to normalize, this is who we were and this is who we're becoming. And there's a lot of solutions. It's not that you're just sitting around telling your war stories. You're like, this is how I work

God in my life on a day to day. This is how I resolve, um, difficult relationships. This is where, and you, and you see each other in this group and that's the ultimate, I mean, addiction is the ultimate lonely thing because you're locked away in your own mind, in your own body, and you're in the throes of something that has you by the scruff of the neck. And no, not enough, not love won't get you, not self-loathing. You don't have the self-loathing. You don't have access to any of that. But it's the self-loathing. So I just shift the frequency of self-loathing because that's the addiction.

That's the root. That's the bulb germinating the whole thing. If you can believe actually that your reality is worth it to stay there. That's right. That you don't have to numb it. That's right. And that's so interesting because I think like that's the point, right? Is that you just, it feels better to be numb than it would to be present. That's right. And that makes me so sad because oftentimes people who are in the depths of addiction have no idea how much they're loved, how much they mean. Can't feel it. That's the point, right? They can't feel it. It's not because they don't want to. It's because they can't.

Yeah. And so you talk about all of these tools that you've acquired over these 20 years. Tell me some of the ones that are the most effective. How do you, how do you, I mean, so just so you know, she's one of the most renowned humans in this space of helping people who have been in those dark nights, who trust you enough to similar to you been in places that are public, that you don't want anybody to know how do I come out of this without it becoming a they come and seek Ryan, and you hold space for them and you start to introduce some of these things that brought you back home. And tell me about the things that just feel so powerful. Well, that became really important to be able to self-regulate because I could no longer, I'd lost the privilege of numbing out. And I wanted to, once I started showing up for my kids and, you know, the presence, becoming present with them became an imperative. It became healing. And I started to see myself grow and see, wow, I am a good mom. I can show up day to day.

I don't have to take the edges off of things. And what do I do when it gets sharp like that? I can write about it. I can talk about it. I can share about it. And someone else will reflect back to me that they've thought and felt the same things. And so that common ground became super healing. And then picking up tools like hypnosis early in my recovery, I found an incredible hypnotherapist and we started, um, you know, working through, I,

we, my husband and I at that time divorced like two years after I got sober, our paths diverged. So I was a single mom and, um, and I really started trusting myself as a parent. Um, that was a big thing. Obviously they had to trust me also in this new way. And, um, I had to trust my instincts as a parent because my instincts had led me astray. And so I had to trust my intuition, trust, you know, um, uh, just like just staying in the middle of the ground. It'd have to be like these highs and lows. My goal was to stay neutral. My goal was to stay present.

My goal was to stay in this lane where I could navigate and really not seek these highs even in meditation to be able to just have this relationship with God that felt or self, whatever you want to call it, that nurtured me from the inside out day to day throughout my day. When shit hit the fan, when setbacks happened, when unfavorable things happened, instead of sitting out and numbing out, I had to engage and have these tools. So hypnosis became one of them. Using breath became another one. Emotional freedom technique, tapping became one. Journaling became huge, obviously meditation. And then the last few years, I just keep adding them on because I love to be able to have this toolbox that, you know, it changes in a season that you're in. One

meditation that worked for me last year doesn't work again. So I have to keep, it's my job to make sure that my practice is fresh, that I'm excited to have time with myself, that I want to. And it gets simpler and simpler. I have goats. I live on a farm now. So like sometimes I walk my goats and I'm doing my prayers while I'm walking. I'm multitasking. It's in the day to day. It doesn't have to, you don't have to run off to an ashram, which is a wonderful experience, but it's in this great saying of God is in washing the dishes, that connection. I can practice presence just through my breath. Yeah. And so it's just the simplicity of it that creates a joyful

life. It creates a life of contentment instead of happiness is contentment. I'm happy with what I have. And I can see, as you say that, you know, this, this ability to come back home in your own body is so simple. Like the complexity of it all blows me away on the best day. You know, like it's like you can, anybody that has ever come into my office is a big, there's usually the dysregulation. It starts with dysregulation. Otherwise I don't know why they're there. Right. So there's always like, it's never been this bad. I'm a piece of shit. He's a piece of shit. This is terrible. I just gonna, I fucking deserve to drink or I don't like whatever the thing is. Right. Like if it wasn't for, if it wasn't for, if it wasn't for, and there's so such a necessary moment in there

where it's about holding space for all of that. We want to fix it so bad, don't we? Because you couldn't get the solution. Let's start the journaling. Let's start to doing the data, but there's this sacred space in there of just feeling seen,'s right of being held who did that for you oh my gosh so many women it's always been women these beautiful mentors i've always sought them out and i've had the great good fortune of working with some incredible people that are in deep integrity with what they're teaching and so that has always been important and i've it's my path's been littered with those those people people, um, from counselors to mentors, to sponsor, to, um, hypnotherapists, meditation teachers. So I've had that. And then

I think somewhere along the way, early on, I started saying, like I said, I love doing this. This is the one I'm happiest. So then I became a life coach so I could do it beyond working with women in recovery. I could do it outside of that because that'll always do. Yeah. That never changed. That's always going to be a through line. Yeah. But that I do for fun and for free. But like, how do I want to have an exchange of energy and finances and all that?

So let me look into life coaching. So I did that. And then I started doing, becoming hypnotherapist. I just started adding all these certifications and also like things I was already doing, but just went deeper in them. Like right now I'm so into sound. So I have like sound bowls and I have, you know, drums and I have this because sound is just a frequency that like cuts past the mind. It can get, it goes, I mean, we're 70% water and sound travels faster in water. So you think about that, how it moves through the cells, it moves through the body. It can really, same with breath. I mean, these are, these are just modalities that like, you might

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And I think so many of us have been taught as therapists to go down the top down approach. OK, so it's really this idea of like, let's recognize your thoughts and your feelings and your behaviors and connect all of those two things together. I have never been more clear in my work. And this is what I love about your writing. I love about your work is you are so clear that it has to be a bottom up approach that starting in the body is where the answer lives, because you can logistically out work your way out of fucking anything. I can listen, especially when you, you can be articulate, right? I will tell you all the reasons why I've journaled about this shit. I understand it. The most powerful question I think that I've ever asked in therapy is where do you feel it? And it's so interesting, you know, the more in your head, the more detached you are from these two things. This is my favorite because

people hate that. Huh? What do you mean? Where do I feel it? Huh? But isn't it the most remarkable question? Because we house it typically in our core when we think about severe trauma. So it will be in your neck, in your chest, in your belly. And it often takes a shape. It often takes. And it's interesting breath work, sound work. It moves those things. Is that how you understand it?

And tell me more about that. You said that so beautifully. It really does. I see that time and time again in people who come in who are like just so locked up. I just did a sound bath for 40 people the other night. It was so beautiful. And, you know, people came up to me who are very like tight. You can see how they mother. You can see. And and they said i had all these sensations in my body i felt like my stomach was moving around and i'm like where do you carry your stress and they're like in my stomach i'm like good this is so good you don't say yeah you just dropped off some kids at the pool or like whatever that is you know like you just drop you just let some stuff go so you're right it does we are we're somatic beings and we have, our body holds things. Our

body is so hardworking. It does so much for us, but it's like connecting the mind, body, and spirit. And I think that is the mission. It's like giving people tools, just telling them, you don't have to be, you don't have to learn sound bowls. I mean, it's great to drop into a sound bath, but it can be through your breath. It can be through humming and toning and like, just tuning in, like, where am I tense right now? And like giving people that language, giving people that the value to want to do that. Yes. Because we're so externally focused. We're so focused on our productivity.

We're measured. Our worth is measured by these things, these litmus, these markers. Yes. And I think we've outgrown it. I think we're done with this. I think we can agree that like what makes a company powerful, what makes a CEO of her own household powerful is being able to self-regulate, being able to just have this emotional intelligence of like, where am I tight right now? Why am I speaking like to my child this way? What just came before this moment? So having the self-talk,

but then also having tools to be able to move it through. To move it through. to move it through, because I think it all starts in that question. And the, having the audacity to ask that of yourself is probably the single most important thing on the planet, because a couple of things, it's sort of like a 007 trick, because you, you then sort of turn inward for that moment to just be like, what might this be? No judgment. You can continue to be assholery-ish. Yes.

You can continue to fight with your, I don't, nobody's, don't stop nothing. Full permission. Full permission to just get your shoulders up and be an asshole and feel all the things. I don't want you to change a single thing. I'm not going to ask you to stop drinking. I'm not going to ask you to stop doing anything. I just want to know, why do you think it's here? Yeah. Right. And it's, it's so cool to watch when you give permission to your body to just, you don't have to move, right? You just stay, you stay knotted

in your chest. You stay knotted in your belly. What happens when that, you know, when that permission is given, because I think we're so desperate to be calm. We're so desperate for it to be okay. Totally. That question we ask, are we good? We're good. We're good. It's fine. Oh, marriage is, oh God, never been better. Love my children. So amazing. And we get the highlight reel of everybody else who clearly are amazing, that it becomes very difficult, which they're not, but it becomes very difficult to then sink into and just accept that it's okay to have that big knot in your belly. It's okay to sort of pay attention to it. In fact, that's where the answer lives. Do you think? I do. Well said again. I think it's also, we put a lot of focus. If I

could just move this here, if that person would just do that, if this would just happen, that's the external focus. If they would stop doing that and and if we could just do it this way, and it would just be this, and if this would work out, and if you could stop that narrative and just say everything is as it is, but I can work on my response to it. I can work on, I can turn the lens on me. How am I showing up? What am I thinking? What am I doing? What's the obsession that I have with them speaking this way or doing this or acting this way? And set them free and just come back and come back to self. That's the obsession that I have with them speaking this way or doing this or acting this way? And set them free and just come back and come back to self. That's the biggest thing when I work one-on-one is like, how are you showing up? How are you speaking under the surface to yourself with what's happening?

Can you let go of that control? Because it's always control. Oh, I hate that. And then just put the lens, the loving lens. It's not like the, it's not the spotlight of like judgment on self, but it's just like, can we just, just start that inner dialogue? What's coming on for me? Curiosity. What's coming up for me right now?

Can you hold space for you? We can't hold space for other people. That's what makes me good at what I do is because I've walked through so many different things as have you. And it makes you good in your weight to be able to hold the weight and salt to be able to hold space for other people that way. But also I've trained myself to be like, it's not out there. This disquiet, this restlessness, this angst, this anger, whatever it is, it's me, it's inside. So how can I put, close my eyes and go in? What is it? And so the journaling becomes important because oftentimes that's where we see what's really true for us.

That's why I love it. Because even when you go into tapping, you can catch your words. I have this great trick where like change, because this is a subconscious thing, change hands, use with your non-dominant hand and write out how you feel. Usually it's the inner child going to say something like, nobody loves me. Right? It's usually the sum part. Try it. It's a fun thing to do.

I'm going to. It's such a fun thing to do. I'm having this whole like, oh, fuck. Like, you're right. God damn. I got it. Yep. Isn't it so true?

Right? And forever I've said this idea about like holding space for other people, but I've literally not until this moment considered holding space for myself. Phenomenal. I love that concept. Like think, think about this, like how you would in any given moment. And I, I mean, I guess there's like reflection and, you know, wondering about why I'm responding in certain ways, but I was even thinking, you know, yesterday when I was on the today show that there was this moment though of really being in those, in those, you know,

those pivotal times in your life about like, okay, just really sink in. And what I often do instead of holding spaces, I, I often try to call in the spirits that are going to guide me. That's often the thing, right? And so it's really just be like, give me, make me a means of your peace. What do, what do I need to, to be the vessel? What is the lessons I need to learn in this moment? And I just, I guess that's a form of holding space, but it's like, I just think that's so profound, Ryan. I love that. Well, I love what you said because you're doing it in many ways. Like when we call in those energies, we are, I feel like we are unhooking the ego that wants to be seen and heard and do it this way and be, you know, control the narrative. But when we, that's why prayer and having that relationship is so powerful because then we say, use me and speak through me in the way that you would, I can be of highest service to do the highest good.

So those sorts of things, the ego, it's me putting value on connecting to those energies and allowing myself to be a channel, if you will. I mean, I don't know, you know what I mean? I know what you mean. I know. And so, cause the ego wants to make it, you know, to control outcomes. Right. Yeah. And that's, I'm not interested in that, honestly. That's why I pulled away for the last couple of years, because I wasn't clear. We spoke about this a few weeks ago. Yes. I asked you if you've been doing many podcasts and you said, no, I just really. I said no, because I hadn't, I didn't feel it. And I don't want to be in other noise in the space of the wellness space. There's so much noise. I feel like I look around and I feel people aren't in integrity with the message. And when I feel that in myself, I'm going to step

away. I'm going to take that time and figure out why I'm doing this. Do I have the love for it? I've been going, it's been a long run. So it's, you know, I keep building, building, building towards what, if I still don't feel the juice and I don't feel the, there's a word in Sanskrit, like a rasa, like the juice of life to do it, then I'm going to pull back. And that should be, we should all have that emotional intelligence as people holding space for other people. Like I can't right now, my well isn't full and normalize that. Let me go away and let me come back strong again. Yes. Yes. You know, come back with that love, that through line of love for service, love for humanity, love for the path. You know, what a gift to be able to recognize that in yourself, right? Because we get these identities

about this is my job now. You know, I'm a life coach. I'm a hypnotherapist. I'm a whatever, a psychologist, whatever the deal is. And this is what I do. The strength in being able to be like, I need to rest first. So if I'm going to be of service to my children, to my partner, to my community, I have to be first. Like that seems to be profound to so many people, particularly as women, because we get our many people have got their feelings about life from the service of other people. So even if you're going to continue to do that, which I think is the highest order of being on this planet, it really has to be a selfish endeavor. It does. Yeah. It has to, because it has integrity is everything to me. And it's, it's, um, you know, I can look the part, but if I don't feel the part, then I'm an imposter.

And I cannot have that. I cannot. It's like that is the contract that I make as someone working in the wellness space. If I don't feel that part, then I'm an imposter. Ooh. Yeah. Doing that work becomes so critically important. It is. And feeling the love for it and wanting to, you know. doing that work becomes so critically important.

It is. And feeling the love for it and wanting to, you know, so I took time off and I like just played, did a lot of sound, did my breath work, you know, became a breath work facilitator, just went back to learning and loving and really reinvigorated, you know, my one-on-one practice. And then I started doing corporate and speaking engagements. And I find like the corporate world, it's like, it's almost like it's stuck in another time. So we're talking about it over here, one-on-one. So I have CEOs coming and it's like, okay, well, it's great that it's there and it's a trickle down, but let's bring it to the masses. If they don't know how to self-regulate in a job when they're at the water cooler and someone says the wrong thing and they're like feeling pressure from the boss, they're not getting the, the, the project done in time and they don't know how to like take that time. It's, it's not an environment that people can

thrive in longterm. Yeah. A hundred percent. And I, and I feel like that so often too, you know, it's, it's just such a seasonal thing of after I wrote the last book and I know you're writing two books at this time, there's such a, I think, ebb and flow that we need to really respect as people who do works of service where when I'm writing, I cannot wait to read other people's stuff. It's a gathering of knowledge for me, a time where I just, I don't want to give anything away. I'm not even sure that I have anything to say anymore. And I'm reading and I'm wondering, and I've got this and that, and oh my God, I never thought about it like this. And I never thought about it like this. And then there's a time where I'm like, also, I don't want to read

anything. You know, like, I think there's nothing more that I could, you know, get. And I think really respecting that flow of when you are in service to other people, especially if you do this full time behind the scenes as a parent, as a partner, as all these things. And if you're going to choose to do that in addition to the work that you do, and so many of us do this, um, whether it be in our communities or in a formal role, that importance of filling that back up becomes so critical. It does. It does. And we have to, um, support each other to do that. Yeah. I, okay. So I asked your mom yesterday, so I got to tell you, um, I had the privilege of spending some time with Ryan's mom, uh, who is an icon. Uh, Dale Haddon is her name, a supermodel by trade, but a philanthropist world changer by most of the time. And I asked her about you and I said to her, what don't people know

about your daughter? And I, I've been so, it felt so sacred to just witness a mother reflect on her daughter. I have, it's been a long time since I've seen somebody with that much pride. Um, she's in awe of you. And I, I captured a five second interchange of you on the phone because we were trying to find her on Madison Avenue yesterday and she had you on speakerphone the way you speak to each other. And I know often, I mean, mothers and daughters have their own histories, but like landing here where you are with this, you know, as you describe her, this, this, this amazing woman who's guided you through so much. Um, I said to her, tell me about her. She's like, you know, she's a spiritual being having a human experience. And I love that. Uh,

can you tell me more about that? Is she right? Is this who you are? A spiritual being having a human experience? We're all that. Oh, my goodness. Tell me more. This is my Ryan avatar suit that I'm wearing. I think I picked a good one this round.

Right. I'm happy with it. It's good. Yeah. I didn't always know that. Oh, my God. No, it never measured up. But I'm in the sweet. It's good. Yeah. I didn't always know that. Oh, my God. No, it was – it never measured up. But this is – I'm in the sweet spot of my life.

And I get to share that with my mom. She's such a remarkable human being. She's been everywhere. She's a best-selling author. She's, you know, seen everything. And she's never been bent by it. She's one of the most intact human beings. And just, just, she's just an extraordinary human being. I keep saying that, but we connect on the spiritual. That is our, that is our yumminess

together. We read the same spiritual books. We take spiritual, you know, classes together. So you've been together many times, you believe? Yes. Oh, many lifetimes. Is that what you mean? Yeah. Many lifetimes. In this lifetime, we've had a lot of incarnations. You know, it's not, it wasn't easy being the daughter of a supermodel. Yes. Right? No, not easy.

Not easy. Just in that, I mean, she was just, first of all, her looks are just so, you definitely look, Google her up because it's very, Very. Yeah. And just so breathtaking. And her presence is as well. And her presence. You don't fucking mess with her, which I, you know, so she's 76. Is this right? Something like that. Oh, shit.

No, it's all good. She's in that realm. In that realm. She's in her 70s. But you would not think that. No. I mean, she's friends with my friends. Do you know?

She's such a young human being. I stepped into her presence yesterday. And why? And she apologized briefly for the way that she was going to run the show. But there was no doubt that she was going to run the show. Yeah.

Okay. She's like, you get on this train. Are you on it or not? Oh, look, you are. Don't even check your bag. You're fucking, I guess.

So I was in awe, appreciated every single second of the sacredness that it was to be in her space, her knowledge, her commitment to building community, to giving back, using her platform to create change in the world was the most remarkable. Yeah. And you in her likeness is phenomenal because in this second season now, you have this remarkable husband. You have two more children. The way you speak about your family, the way you speak about Mark is just, tell me about this season. This farm, the ghosts. So somewhere in my single years of dating in L.A., I happened upon this incredible man who lives with a neighbor. And I was like, I'm not dating an actor again. I'm done with that. I've been there, done that.

Yeah, got it. And he just his goodness, his kindness, his just his energy was so different than anyone else's. He was another intact human being who operates in that world where people's souls kind of get twisted a little bit, or can have the propensity for that, not all of them. But he just moves through it with so much ease and grace, much like my mom. So at that point, they're the same. They're the hardest working two of them, but they don't identify themselves as they don't see themselves to how other people see them. They just show up.

They love the creativity of it. And then they go home and they know who they are. And Mark is that through and through. He is, oh, absolutely. He is so salt of the earth. He is grew up blue collar, you know, here I've jet setted my whole life and we're, we're the same, we've met in the same place, but we got there in different ways. He loves to say, so we're in that pocket of really just family and land and animals and children. And so we met in LA and that madness of la a few years in after we got married we found a farm in pennsylvania and moved there we got 15 acres and he's super

handy so he we found an old house in the 1700s and he like built it back up and it's a marvel i heard this story that when you stepped onto the property he he was like, oh, the vision is amazing. And you were like, oh my gosh, what are we doing? Yeah, I was crying, signing the lease. I was like, no, because I could sing Water Stains. And I don't have the vision that he has. He's like, we're going to move this wall and we're going to take the scaffolding and put it over there. Like, I don't even know the language, but it was like that. We're going to build, you know, landscaping here. He's like welded, painted, built. I mean, it's unbelievable. So I live in this gorgeous space that he created for us, his vision. And it was so nice to, you know, I've been someone before that in relationships that was like controlling and managing them.

And I had to learn, I found myself with this divine masculine who I could be the divine feminine. I could just relax and be and let someone else run and hook my vision up to theirs. And I guess in that place of safety, when we're in a partnership like that, then we get to try things out and take chances and explore. I'd never had that before. You know, I didn't have to manipulate or maneuver. And that was in large part things that I had been learning spiritually and otherwise. But you know, that was one of the pieces that clicked into place for me to be in this loving, um, all we have this, our values line up and, um, and the safety. I think the word safety is probably the most profound word that we need to use more in this mental health space.

How do we create a sense of safety for people? Because it's one of the greatest predictors of mental health when you can feel safe in the presence of other people. And you think about the worst times in your life, wherever you are, oftentimes you will identify not feeling safe in those moments. And I love when you said, you know, when I was in the ashram, I had that sense of safety when I was with my mom and she was regulated and connected to me, there was safety there. So your body knows it. And you can also clearly identify the times that it wasn't right. And even as you describe Mark and this family system, I watched you with your son today, the safety in those relationships are palpable. And I think it's like being able to,

to, to understand, like, how do you get back there is the question. So when you lose it, how do you get back there? Well, I had to create safety within myself. And I wasn't safe. I wasn't safe. I put myself in harm's way. I chose unsafe partnerships. I put myself professionally in unsafe places. And why do we do that?

Like if we know the truth here, why do you think we take those risks? Because they're sexy, because they risks? Cause, cause they're sexy because they, they're alluring because they're very inviting. I think so. I just wasn't self-responsible. I would kept aligning myself with people that I thought could create that safety for me. And when we're looking externally again, it doesn't do it. So I built up early in sobriety is starting to admire myself, starting to respect the choices I was making, starting to put value on safety and trusting, being able to trust myself. I talked about that, my intuition, my instincts, you know. So even if you're alone, you don't feel lonely. I don't.

Because you are home right here. Yes. Yes. And that's what I was thinking about lonely and being alone. It's like, cause you can be lonely in a whole group of people. You can be lonely in your family. Yes. It's so fucking depressing, right? That's like the worst feeling because you're like, what is wrong? But it's like, now I feel like I'm constantly trying to push my kids out so I can have a lone time. You know, they know when mom's playing the bowls, get the hell out. That's my alone time. Or when I'm walking the goats, everybody knows it's my sacred. Like I have to fill up my well. And everybody knows that in my world, you know. So I think that was something that I learned early in the last 20 years.

And I just kept building on it. And, in fact, that's what attracted my husband to me. He wasn't my type. He wouldn't have been my type. I wouldn't have had value on someone who wasn't dark and twisty because that's what I knew ahead of time. So I had started value on stability, started to put value because that's what I was creating within myself. And that mirrored that in my partnership. And I, you know, one of the, he didn't deliver that. I just want to say that I would have been steadily working on it. So he didn't come in and save you. Like,

let's be very clear. This wasn't this very solid human who was just like rescued you from the dark. So you had done your work. And I, I want to talk about that just for a second, because I know where I think that what's so critical about this process is there's so many exit ramps in this season, particularly I would imagine in LA and New York where everything to be able to step away is so easy. The breadth of relationships are so beautiful to be able to get, which is great, right? Esther Perel says this, you know, you can get a thousand likes on Instagram and nobody to feed your goats. You know, she actually says dogs, but you know, and it's like the depth of relationships are becoming more and more sacred because it's so hard. It is so much work to really

sink into another human being and figure out your dance. And when we have so many opportunities to look away, it is the thing that worries me the most about humanity, about the work it takes to build the things that will be your rudders, your anchors, when not if life gets hard. Right? Because, you know, 20 years sobriety, I'm sure there's not a, maybe there, but my question to you is, right, is this still hard? No, I don't think it is. I don't think it is. You're so clear. Yeah, I'm so clear. And I love it. I mean, I have a humility in the sense of knowing that it's not a given. So I work it. I still do that. I still am a part of that community.

I will be. I enjoy it. I enjoy hearing someone coming in and having plumbed the depths and are ready now to, and I love watching their transformation. So community is a big part of why I have what I have. And so that has kept me in good stead with loneliness. Yeah. Right. But, um, I don't know. I don't know. I think that you have to start with the relationship. For me, I start with the relationship to you. How are you speaking to yourself? What lens are you, what filter are you running yourself through? Maybe it can be a little bit softer, a little bit kinder.

Start there and then watch how you think about other people. So then start extending that. What expectations do you have for them, of them? Are you living up to them yourself? Are you in integrity with what you're asking other people to do? It becomes that simple and just making those little and then practice gratitude. I mean, God, it's just like a gratitude, right? But honestly, if your relationship is like, I have a child with special needs, my last one, my fourth, my fourth child. Um, and so one of the therapists taught us to, if you want to turn a moment around, to start noticing the good. So like say she's throwing that pencil and then she picks up another one.

I love the way you picked up that pencil. Even though she's about to chuck it at the wall. I love how you use that kind word right there. I love how you didn't do that. So you can turn it around by putting the lens on the good. Yeah, and showing them. And showing them. But it softens my heart.

And also you're creating this energy between you because that's a measurable. I know it's probably not in the psychotherapist language. No, it's perfect. But it's a measurable thing to start to put a lens on good. But you're regulating you. So that is your task to make sure you stay in your good. You know what your baby needs. Yes.

You know that they're not intentionally, given the way that their body is structured, doing the things that they're doing. But when we're frustrated and overwhelmed and we're like, for the love of Jesus. Yes. You know? And so we snap. They snap. Everybody's snapping. And you're like, this is bullshit.

I'm out. If we were to backtrack that any single time, it always comes back to the if we can look after us first, we have access to our good. And it doesn't mean we put up with shit. It doesn't mean you can draw all over my walls. It doesn't mean I won't set limits for you. It does not mean. No. It doesn't mean anything goes because that's the scariest place for kids.

It is I will take control when needed to, but I'll take control from a place that allows you to know I'm in control, too. That's right. Right. And it's such a gift. And I think that, you know. For you to be able to understand that to your in your bones is just it's never an end game. You you practice this every day. Is this right? You know, even in your, you know, the reflection over the last couple of years, it's like, I know that on a macro level, I have to do this on a daily level. You're very committed to your practice. Yeah. I am grateful for that. Yeah. One day at a time. But I was, I was, I also think that's interesting, that gratitude piece, because I learned that with a little one. So it's also people can bring that into their relationships. So when you're noticing he's not bringing out

the trash, start noticing the things that the husband is doing and just be like, oh, I love how you did that. And I think that can just like turn, even when people come through my practice, it's like, I want to divorce. I'm ready to divorce. It's like, what, what lens are you running that through? So can you just, just find the, notice the good and see if you can grow that out and put a spotlight on those good things first before we throw the baby out with the bath water. And you'd be surprised how often then the other person starts to see themselves in the way that you're seeing them. Yeah. Right. And it's, it, that's why the gratitude piece works so well. I love that. And I was just thinking about my baby girl who's 11, you know, we, I tucked her

in the other night and she was full of tears and I said, what's happening? And she just said, well, I'm like, I just tried on my outfit for school tomorrow. And I don't think I look very good. And like, I'm so much bigger than the other girls. My husband is tall. And so she is, did not get that from me. So she's a very tall 11 year old. And she's like, what about this? And this person's like this. And I just hate myself. And I just said, okay, first of all, I'm glad you're telling me. Yeah. yeah secondly we have to change the way that we talk to ourselves and she's like fine I've tried it but I don't believe in so why would I keep saying things that I don't believe to be true okay which is first of all I was like for the

love of Christ this is not how this is supposed to go okay so just but she was so right yeah it is not an end game and so I said to her okay so we got a couple of, right? We could continue to go down the place that says I am not good enough. Everybody else is prettier than me, smaller than me, doing all the things. Or we can just start. And so let's do this together, right? Can you say this for me? I am amazing. And she says it in a Darth Vader voice.

And I was like, fuck it, I'll take it. And I'm like, I love it. And so it will be a messy start. It will always not feel like it's in your bones. But the point is really to shift that narrative. You have to keep doing it. You have to start over again and again and again. And the job of our kids is to lose their frigging minds.

Our job is to walk them home. And it doesn't mean we're not doing it right when it doesn't feel right. It should be this constant state. Okay. You were the best of all time. And I, I loved so much about, you know, you said to me, the biggest part of rebuilding is giving it away. I've heard you say that. And you are just so remarkably giving. And, you know, if you're not watching this, if you're just listening to this, I want you to just the generosity that I hope you feel over this sound is really how Ryan appears to be in real life. You are just a remarkable human. I hope you know that.

I hope you get time to to really I'm sure. I hope you do sink into your journey. It was a gift to have you today. Thank you. Thank you. Your time is precious. Thank you for this conversation. You too. Oh, everybody, I hope you love this as much as I did.

I want you to take care of each other, take care of yourself. And I cannot wait to meet you right back here again next time. The Unlonely podcast is produced by three incredible humans, Brian Seaver, Taylor McGillivray, and Jeremy Saunders, all of Snack Lab Productions. Our executive producer, my favorite human on this planet is Marty Hiller. Soundtracks were created by Donovan Morgan, Unlonely branded artwork created by Elliot Cuss. Our big PR shooters are Des Veneau and Barry Cohen. Our digital marketing manager is the amazing Shana Hadden. Our 007 secret agent from the talent Bureau is Jeff Lowness. And emotional support is provided by Asher Grant, Evan Grant, and Olivia Grant. Go live! I am a registered clinical psychologist in Alberta, Canada. The content created and produced in this show is not

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