Unlonely with Dr. Jody Carrington - Turn Toward Each Other: Dr. Jessica Higgins

Episode Date: March 21, 2024

Dr. Jessica Higgins holds two graduate degrees in psychology, two coaching certifications, and over 20 years of experience helping clients achieve successful results.As the host of the Empowered Relationship Podcast, she helps people navigate the terrain of long-lasting intimacy more skillfully and mindfully. Through her coaching and online course, clients transform pain into love and connection.In this episode, Dr. Jody and Dr. Jessica Higgins talk all about how trauma, birth order, etc. can affect our relationships. This conversation is deep and incredibly informative for all humans in any kind of relationship.https://www.facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationshiphttps://www.linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins/https://www.instagram.com/drjessicahiggins/https://in.pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation/https://twitter.com/DrJessHigginswww.drjessicahiggins.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. At the beginning of every episode, there will always be time for an acknowledgement. You know, the more we do this, people ask, why do you have to do the acknowledgement and every episode? I got to tell you, I've never been more grateful for being able to raise my babies on a land where so much sacrifice was made. And I think what's really critical in this process is that the ask is just that we don't forget. So the importance of saying these words at the beginning of every episode will always be of utmost importance to me

and this team. So everything that we created here today for you happened on Treaty 7 land, which is now known as the center part of the province of Alberta. It is home of the Blackfoot Confederacy, which is made up of the Siksika, the Kainai, the Pekinni, the Tatina First Nation, the Stony Nakota First Nation, and the Métis Nation Region 3. Our job, our job as humans, is to simply acknowledge each other. That's how we do better, be better, and stay connected to the good. welcome in welcome back fellow humans this is a, I often, here's my favorite thing about talking to other therapists. You're going to get a little piece of therapeutic insight, whether you want it today or not, and buckle up because I got one of the best. Her name is Dr. Jessica Higgins, and she holds two graduate degrees in psychology,

two coaching certificates, and, oh coaching certifications, and over 20 years of experience helping clients achieve successful results. She is the host of the Empowered Relationship Podcast, which I also got to be a guest on, and she helps people navigate the terrain of long-lasting intimacy more skillfully and mindfully. Through her coaching and online course, clients transform pain into love and connection. And I got to tell you, she's powerful and insightful. And when I was on her podcast, we talked over each other. We were like, so you might need to maybe turn it down a little, but certainly be prepared to sink in.

Because today, I think among many things, we want to talk about criticism, because it's the thing that I am not really good at. Self-criticism, how we are so judgmental about each other. So that's the thing. I mean, all of that and so much more. And I just want to tell you, I mean, every time I start this episode like this, this is a podcast about where you come from. And I know to the core of me that we are all way more alike than we are different. And maybe most importantly, the difference between empathy and judgment often lies

in the understanding of where another comes from. So tell me, Dr. Jessica Higgins, where would we start with you? Where have you came from? Well, that's a wide, broad question. And I could probably spend hours and hours answering that question. I think what could be most helpful is just really recognizing for myself and with your audience, when I am talking about relationship principles, I do my very, very best to walk the

talk, do the practice, do my own work. I still get my own therapy. Many of the principles I came into through relationship hardship and real dismay, and even coming from a background where I felt very well-equipped. So grew up in a family that was fairly progressive as far as personal growth, relationship principles. I was being taught I statements from a very early age. Wow. I had an undergrad in psychology. I had a master's in psychology and felt I should be well-equipped for a relationship. And nonetheless, it was hugely confronting. And yet that relationship, despite feeling as though we had found the one, both of us, and knowing what I know now, I'm sure we could have possibly had a different result.

And yet what it did do for me is it spawned me into a deep dive of recognizing what was getting activated through the intimate experience of partnership and the invitation for me to grow and heal on a deep, deep level. And then also set me on a course to doing the work, practicing the work that I then probably a year or so later met my now husband and have been awkwardly and deeply devoted to the work. And it's, you know, we continue to foster and we continue to deepen and it's, I feel so, so grateful to be so committed to the practices. So yeah, that's what I'll say, I guess, as it's relevant to my work. I love that. I love that. And so where did you grow up? Tell me about that because we of course got these beautiful pictures. This is what the thing I love the most

about this podcast, okay, is everyone comes from somewhere. And so we ask every guest if they can find one, I need to see a picture of you, of where you came from. And you sent me some really amazing ones. So tell me like, what was the system like that you grew up in? Where did all of that happen? Well, it's a very unconventional structure in the sense that my mother was very young. She had me when she was 21. So I know very young in this context. You know, today's age, that's probably not defined as super young. But I was born in 1974. I was born in Portland, Oregon.

And yet my mother was born and raised in a small area outside of Cleveland, Ohio. It's on the East side. It's novelty. And as we speak, I'm currently in that house that she grew up in. Stop. I am. I am. Feel it. And I think that was why I was drawn to some of the photos that I sent you because they were of me being on this property. It's got a half acre lake, which was, I mean, a pond, we called it a lake, but it's a pond and it was a swimming pond lake. And so much of my summers were here swimming. And then my mother is one of five. And so her youngest sibling is seven years older than me. So he was kind of like my uncle brother. Nice. Yeah. So none of this, all that to say I was born and raised

for the most part in Portland, Oregon, but I was going back and forth. I would spend at least a month in the summer with my grandmother. My grandmother was such a primary pivotal person in my life. And my grandfather was too, but she and I have a very special bond. I'm actually going to see her this weekend. She's in a assisted living center. It used to be independent living. They switched her over to assisted and she's in Cincinnati close to my uncle, brother, Tim and his family. And she's got pretty bad dementia, but she's 98 and she still has her long-term memory. And so I love just being with her and her energy. So I think I sent you a photo of her and I, we would take trips and travel in the summer and she was just always a source of her and I, we would take trips and travel in the summer

and she was just always a source of stability. And my mother on the other hand was very dynamic and expressive and taught me a lot about many things. And yet my grandmother, I think held that ground of just consistency and stability, which was so fundamental to, I think my my attachment system, my everything. Oh my gosh. And what about dad? Where does he fit in? So dad died when I was three months old and he also was in the Cleveland area. And I had a stepfather, I would say when I was like, my mother married, I think when I was like six and a half,

seven. And then they were together for several years and then got a divorce. He wasn't at the time he was having addiction and alcohol issues. So it wasn't operating as the best father figure. And, um, I've had, so, um, my mother, when, when I think I was like maybe a year to like three and a half or four, she was with a man and he was operating as I would say my fundamental father figure that was consistent. And we still have a very deep relationship. I actually reached out to him in my PhD program. And I was like, I just want to know. I just want to let him know what

I'm up to. And it had been since I was like four and a half, um, they split up and he moved back to New York where he was from. And, uh, my mother had a lot of guilt about not providing a little bit more of that stability in the conventional sense. And so she would tell me bits and pieces. And I remember just, I I'm this, there's no guilt. I love you. You're amazing. I just want to hear these early stages. Like, tell me the timeline because I had never, she'd given me a lot of information. I knew most everything, but not in the timeline. And once I heard how he showed up in our lives and who he was, and I always knew that he was a person that I was very connected to and deeply fond of. But it wasn't until I was in my young thirties that I reached out to him and

just wanted to say hello. And he picked up the phone. I'd get through his assistant and he picked up the phone and he was like, literally, this is like 28 years and 29 years later. And he picks up the phone because even her, his assistant knew who I was. He was like, don't hang up. I knew she was like, don't hang up. I totally know who you are. And then he picks up the phone and he's like, hi, Jesse. And I was just like, and so that just spawned. I mean, he's operating as my father for the most part. I mean, we are very close. So I can just see that in your whole body as you shift. Tell me, I mean, now knowing what you know, and we talked a little bit about this, revisiting

that story, going back to where it all started. People ask me this all the time as a therapist, right? Does it always come back to mom and dad? And I always say, I'm so fucking sure. I'm so sure about that. And they're like, no, really? Does it always have to, right? I mean, I could see the emotion it evokes in you. I'm touched by him. Like, it's just a really, I mean, if we were to go into that story, it's quite profound. And so I just am so grateful. And really, I mean, if we were to go into that story, it's quite profound. And so I just am so grateful. And yes, I have emotion.

Oh, God. And isn't that, and it often is even, it doesn't mean, it's always about the depth of relationship, right? Not the breadth. And so, you know, as you say, 28 years ago, he was just so pivotal in creating that story of stability in the father daughter relationship that, and obviously he felt it too. I mean, 28 years later, he still thinks about you and talks about you and knows about you. And, and even, even the knowing of that

is something, there's something that fits a piece into the, the psyche, the story, when just knowing that is healing, is transformative in some way. And tell me about that. I mean, in your work of this idea of how important is the story as you walk through sort of your experience in that way? I mean, that's what we do with our clients, right? I try to get them to reconnect to your story. Like, where did you come from? Right. Well, I will come at this from a slightly different angle, but also addressing your question. And, you know, as a fellow psychologist, I, I heavily rely on the attachment system and the, what the research as it shows up in romantic, intimate relationship. And for people who, I mean, it's very widely talked about. So likely a lot of your audience is familiar, like what's your attachment style or your, your attachment tendency or constellation. I don't, I think for research purposes, it tends to be much more

categorized than it actually is in real life. But typically, if one's had more optimal, consistent, stable parenting, they will likely have that secure foundation relationally. That means it's affecting them on every level, emotionally, physiologically, and also just their nervous system. And what that then means is they will move through the world expecting that people will respond to them and they're safe and that their needs will get met. And they have a level of openness in reaching and receiving with others. And this becomes particularly important and prominent in romantic, intimate relationship, because as you know, inciting Bowlby, who's one of the fundamental researchers, theorists of attachment system, it's cradle to grave.

Our whole life, we are wired up for bonding and Susan Johnson and her team. And I know you're familiar, the EFT, they talk about, this isn't even a preference or a desire. This is a fundamental need. Like we need water to drink. And, and so when I come through that lens, I would say a large portion of people didn't have from both parents that consistent optimal caregiving. And thus we will have some level of insecure attachment style or an attachment style. So it can be anxious attachment style. It could also be avoidant. And then there's other ones that are kind of combinations, but it means that based on the environment, they had to learn certain coping strategies.

And that was just the lived experience. It was a way of negotiating the world. It was a way of trying to get one's needs met. And yet there's certain ways that can be in adulthood, not very supportive because we're using, it's like we're using old adaptive strategies and trying to apply them to current day. And if anything, there may be no longer serving us or even creating, um, barriers to closeness and intimacy. So as it relates to myself and my story, there's a lot of loss. There's a lot of, um, inconsistencies or, uh, changes and difficulties. And I think with my mother, her being my like primary person throughout, it was mixed.

I mean, there was a lot of consistency and a lot of love that she devoted and our relationship is very strong. And yet there was a lot of turmoil and chaos and a lot of other ways. So I think I tended to be more of that anxious attachment style where I was a little bit more hypervigilant.

I was a little bit more hypervigilant. I was a little bit more aware of the people I love and their emotional tone. And so that was an effective strategy for me to have more regulation and stability primarily with my mother. And then coming into adulthood, I was operating off of those tendencies. And my husband had come from a little bit more of the avoidant tendency, which is for people who aren't as familiar, it's a little bit being more contained, a little bit more turning inward. Again, I do think this is on a continuum. I don't think he had extreme neglect or intrusion or ways that were unsafe.

But typically for people who are a little bit more avoidant, they learn not to trust that they turn to rely on, they tend to rely on themselves and that others aren't going to show up in the way that they need them to. So it's just a better reliable source to turn inward. And so that is a difficult combination in relationship where one is seeking, are we good? Is everything okay? And the other one's perceiving that as, you know, likely, I guess, in my case with my husband, he would interpret my questions as something's wrong. And it's, am I not giving her what she needs?

Am I failing her? Is it not good enough? And he would go inwards when he would feel any tension or stress. And then I would see him distance and I'm like, where are you going? So this was back in 2005 when I met him and these patterns, when we first started dating, he lost his father actually in 2006. So that kind of interrupted the typical honeymoon stage where he was feeling a lot. And anyway, all that to say, we've been working our patterns and I'm so grateful. The beautiful thing I'll just say lastly about attachment is that we can earn a secure attachment, have those corrective experiences, which I know you're all about, and helping people have that repair that then they can start to learn and trust a new way of operating and that people can essentially earn a secure attachment. Oh, okay. So I'm so glad you brought this because I think what's, suffice it to say,

I spent a lot of years in grad school trying to figure out who I was. Avoidant, attachment, anxious, disorganized, all of these things. And I was like, holy shit, I'm all these things. I'm so fucked up. Everybody has, here's why I always want to know as a psychologist where you came from, okay? Because it matters. And it does not define you, but it matters if you're trying to do the work and understand how you're going to show up in the world. Because the way people treated you in your childhood determined the roadmap in which you see other people, your expectations of how this world will treat you. Big people, little people, how people will honor you, your safety, your space, how they won't, how they respect you or disrespect you, based on the way that people talked and acted and interacted with you. Okay, so I have yet to meet a person who had that pristinely, who had primary caregivers all in an order, everybody went through unscathed, everybody was kind all the time, every emotional need was met and I came out fully regulated and securely attached. Now, never. So let's just drop that fucking facade right now. Okay. All of us, you

can do exceptionally well in this world and have a completely fucked system. But generally speaking, what happens is if you can seek the corrective experiences. So when I'm asking anybody about, you know, their relationship with their parents or, you know, where they grew up or what it was like with their siblings, I'm not looking for all the things that have fucked you up. I'm actually looking for how you made sense of the world, given the relationships that were in your corner and mostly who was those corrective experiences. Because when I, you know, when you start to talk about him or your grandmother, you know, oftentimes we have the most complicated relationships with our primary attachment figures, right? Because we've spent the most time with them.

We've given them a lot of opportunity to mess it up. Just true with our children as well. And so the piece is, it's never just a solid story between you and your parents. It's usually about what was it like in that external system? What was it like in the community that you grew up in? Where did you go through COVID? Did you go through a world war? Did you navigate, you know, refugee camps? All of those things are not good or bad. They just are. And they dictate the story in which we understand relationship. Okay. Because as you said, we are neurobiologically wired for connection. It is like air. And so I better talk about the air you breathe if I'm going to figure out why you feel sad

or mad or depressed or anxious or whatever that is. That's where the story starts. Fair? Absolutely. Absolutely. And I would just add too, I know there's so many sources of research that speak to the resilience and the power of corrective experiences, but to your point, we could have really unoptimal circumstances in our upbringing. And yeah, you know, the research that came out of the assets program and the resilience, I mean, just the, it's powerful that just even one interested, caring, safe adult, whether or not it's a coach, a teacher, I mean,

that can have profound impacts on someone's sense of self and wellbeing and ability to be. So here's what I wrote a lot about. So in early in my career, I talked a lot about the adverse childhood experiences stuff. So Vince, Vince Felitti and colleagues really came out identifying the 10 things that if a kid experiences before the age of 18 without intervention will later fuck them up. And that was all the rage for a long time. People are like, OK, no surprise. Some surprises, but no surprise. Sexual abuse, emotional abuse, physical abuse. And you can Google this.

This isn't proprietary information in any way, right? Like the ACEs score, what we're looking at is if you get a point on any of those 10 items and you don't want a point, the more points you get, they're cumulative. So are you a child of divorce? Did you experience emotional or physical neglect? Did you live with a parent who later went to jail? Did you live with a parent who had struggled with mental illness? Once you look at those things, for a long time, I was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. Let's look at, okay, this kid, he's my patient and he's in foster care and he's only six years old and he has an ACEs score of nine, nine out of 10. And so there's a lot of conversation then in the literature around, holy shit, then what do we do here? One of my favorite switches, and it took me a really long time to figure this out,

maybe Narian's work, 2018, talked about the benevolent childhood experiences stuff, where he created, they created another measure that also a 10 point measure that said, hey, guess what? We also have to look at your corrective, your benevolent experiences that not only help you rewire some of those things, but offset. And I think that that is probably the most critical piece of research moving forward because I speak to teachers and police officers all the time. And I say, do not ever underestimate your power. One of the items on the BCEs is, did you have good neighbors? All of us in this moment, it is as powerful. I mean, and I use the term like a race and ace, but that's, I mean, I get that's probably

not fundamentally true, but I, it's like, if you just don't be an asshole today, like if you wave at the people who you are in a community with, you can single-handedly change the trajectory of a life. If you are a step-parent for a short, brief period of time to Dr. Hagan's story, you can single-handedly, fundamentally change the direction. And so I think about this certainly as a therapist, but I also talk about this as a hockey coach, as a step parent, as the guy who works at the grocery store, which is why it's so difficult to look at a kid or any human and be like, oh God, they came through so much, but how are they so resilient?

And then this person didn't seem to have that many bad things happen, but they so struggle. It's so hard to determine because it's so much embedded in how we perceived the way people treated us. Thus then the expectations of how the world works. Precisely. And yes, and I would add to what you're saying. So often people are confronted with some of the challenges and intimacy. I guess this is where I would see it in my world, right? With romantic intimate relationship, or even as we talk about criticism, if we, if we end up talking about it, uh, that they on paper had the optimal upbringing, no abuse, no big T's can be pointed to

and perhaps even had a higher level of income or, you know, upper middle class or even middle class or beyond. And all of these things can be seen as privilege or resources. And still they struggle with how is this, how am I struggling here? There's almost this sense of I feel ill-equipped or it's bringing up all those pain. And so what we're also looking at too often is while everything can be stable and in the conventional sense, there can be this difficulty. And this is obviously generational that depending on when people were parenting or certain norms of that collective culture. And so perhaps the emotional intelligence or the emotional attunement didn't exist. And therefore they didn't have that ability to feel seen, to feel understood, taken seriously, and feeling as though their full range of emotion is honored and accepted. That's huge.

And there are many people who didn't get that, but had everything else that felt very stable and optimal. And that can be kind of confusing. How is it that I feel like I'm trying to process relational? Yeah. I had everything. Nothing really bad happened to me. I had a beautiful childhood. Okay. All of that stuff is fantastic. Right. But like, let's dig into the story, the narrative that is you. And, you know, I mean, this is where I love you bring in the research around, you know, um, birth order, um, what it means to, you know, be the expectations of the oldest child versus the youngest, you know, when a parent dies, what does that do for you? What is the role of your

siblings? How does that play? Who do I show up in the room? All of those things matter so much, right? And I just love, I love that sort of sense of things. And you've really focused a lot on how then that affects intimacy and interpersonal relationships. Tell me a little bit about that. If you struggle in understanding that other humans have the potential to be safe, if you don't believe that to be true, what does that look like when you're trying to sort of date or develop intimate relationships or you find yourself in a marriage? What does that look like? Well, just following up on what we just spoke about around not maybe having the experience

of being emotionally attuned with or having emotions even being accepted or held or seen as welcomed in the upbringing of one's life, what that often will entail in a romantic relationship is depending on the person's way of existing in the world to cope with that. They might be overachievers. They might be the ones that want to fix things or do things, but we'll be either not in touch with how they actually feel. They're much more in the people pleasing realm, or how do we co-create a relationship or how do we create a relationship together where it's all the things that we think we should do. It's the trips, it's the, you know, the things that we see maybe on social media that consist of a happy relationship. And yet if we're disconnected from

what we're feeling, or if an individual is disconnected from what they're feeling, it's very difficult to feel a level of, again, being seen, feeling understood, taken seriously, advocating for what one wants to be able to say, here's where I'm at. Here's where this hurt. Here's where this is where I'm longing for you, reaching for you. The glue in intimacy is often this emotional bond. And when we don't have the... The glue in intimacy is the emotional bond. And when we have the story that another is not safe or can't be trusted, it becomes very difficult to maintain intimacy. Fair?

Even engage in it, to even know that that's even possible. It's like we cut off from it and we're not even aware of what we're feeling. And how do we get our, how do we ask for what we need emotionally when we don't even feel like it's like the paradigm of it, right? We don't even know that that's, that's possible. Do you, is this a possibility? Do you often see when people get into relationships, like what is, when do you understand those patterns? Are they triggered by a season, you know, parenthood when kids are leaving the nest? Do you see that in people, how they sort of can develop a relationship? You know, as you talked about, and I think about, you know, all of the relationships that I considered, you know, as a long-term partner marriage, and then they don't pan out for whatever reason. And then you see so many other people who get into relationship and are

like, this isn't who I married, or, you know, I'm in this for five years or 25 years. And I'm like, you know, this, this dynamic has changed so much. Help me understand how that sort of can come up in, in, in a relationship over time, right? How do we not know this out of the gate? How are we not like, oh, bad, not good. You can't give me what I want. Right, exactly. So I want to focus on the developmental stages of intimacy and relationship.

And depending on who is teaching, there might be anywhere from three to seven. I like to use the five. But you're also speaking to life stages. I think when we're developing as a human and our identity, right, who we were when we were 18 or 19 versus who we are when we're 30 is often very different. And so that's playing a part. I don't think any of this exists without other variables, but to come back to the intimacy, it's classic that that first stage is called the honeymoon stage. And there's a lot of neurochemicals that support that bonding. It's fueled for connecting. And what we do with all the neurochemicals, we feel this sense of like a high and we fantasize, we romanticize. What we do with all the neurochemicals, we feel this sense of like a high and we fantasize,

we romanticize. What we then do also is we fill in the blank. We don't actually know who this human is and all seasons and how they deal with grief, how they deal with anger, how they deal with upset. We just imagine based on these early, I mean, it's fueled by neurochemicals and also we are putting our best foot forward. It's exciting. It's novel. And so we're in the courting and so it's, everything's beautiful. And so what then the second stage typically is the power struggle stage. Now that can happen anywhere from eight months to a year and a half. And that's when people are starting to exist. The neurochemicals

have waned and we're living life together. Maybe we've moved in, maybe we got married, maybe we have a child. I mean, there could be many circumstances, but we're making decisions together as a couple. And we start to recognize, oh, you're really different than I thought, or this is a conflict. And I love to even reference the Gottmans and the Gottman Institute. I think I remember hearing that something out of their research that every couple has seven to eight irreconcilable differences. And that's not, excuse me, that's not reconcilable, irreconcilable differences in the way of court around like, oh, this is divorce material. It's more of this is individual, long-lasting character traits.

So this is the spender, the saver, the one that's on time, the one that tends to be a little bit more spontaneous, the planner, the one that's a little bit more expressive or outgoing, the one that's introverted. So, I mean, I remember when I came across this, I'm like, that sounds like a lot. And I reflected and I was like, yeah, we, my husband and I definitely have seven. And so in this power struggle stage, that becomes so much more visible. And then when we're ill-equipped to come to win-wins or negotiate when we're in conflict and we haven't developed those skills, then that's where it's hugely confronting. We try to change our partner. We try to change ourself. We try to think something's wrong and I could go into all the difficulty, but research shows

people get stuck there. They just kind of narrow their plane of existence. They just say, okay, we don't go there. That's a sensitive topic. Okay, we're not going to talk about that. We don't do this. So the world gets a little smaller and this is the safe zone. And that can be hugely constricting to intimacy, passion, and authenticity.

And so that can be a little dulling. Yeah, like the nail is in the coffin. Like it's starting. This is kind of how it starts. Okay. Got it. Or it's explosive. People are fighting and they're trying to negotiate, but through difficulty and then they break up, we're going to divorce at some point because it's just, we put, we're just exhausted. We put so much effort, it's not working and we don't know how to be happy together. And it's tragedy because really this is a stage that helps us learn how to get towards win-wins, how to resolve differences, how to make decisions together in a way that both people can get their

needs met. And yeah, it takes a lot of work to do that. Amen. Okay. So that's two? That's two. Oh Jesus. Okay. What's three? Well, I mean, what's, what's two oh jesus okay what's three well i mean what's what's i mean again this depends on people's frame but really what we're looking at is how do we then again whether or not it's three or seven or five what comes out of that is a way of working together a way of building more conscious relationship that we've, it's an evolution that we learn and we learn how to utilize these skills. So everything that we experienced is still a part of us and yet we're up leveling. And so we know how to resolve differences. It might be triggering, but we know how to get through the other side. We know how to get through that

struggle and we know how to have each other's back. We know how to care for each other. So some people call it, I call it, well, I'm referencing Susan Campbell's work out of her book. Um, and the last stage is co-creation stage or synergy stage. This is where it's not one plus one equals two. It's one plus one equals far greater that the power that a couple, when they're in a secure, safe relationship and what they can create together is quite profound. Other people will call it a power couple. So there's a lot of versions out there,

but the goodness is on the other side, essentially of that power struggle stage. That's probably the hardest and the most confronting and the most difficult. Hey everyone, we all know how draining cold and flu season can be. Waiting rooms, missed appointments, and that worry about whether a fever is something serious. But there is a better way. Maple gives you access to Canadian doctors and nurse practitioners in minutes, right from your phone. Get the medical care you need, including prescriptions when appropriate, 24-7 without leaving home.

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So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push, find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. I love that. And I mean, if I think about Sue Johnson's work around, you know, like the EFT, the dance, I love so much. I mean, Harriet Lerner talked about this. I think you and I referenced these on your podcast, which is really about it is so fucking hard to get the dance right. Because what you have, and right isn't even a term. I think even if you can, the only focus really is to find a step that at least every once in a while, you're sort of in sync with each other. It's not going to happen all the time. You're going to step on each other. Somebody's going

to fall down. Somebody is a shitty rhythm or guy. And then this is, but this is the truth, right? Is that like, imagine how hard this is. I have got two human beings who want to spend their life together and they both come into this world with their own attachment injuries or the, the experience of the world of house. People will let them down. People will support them that now you bring those two people together. They have completely two different stories about how the world works. They fall in love with each other because the hormones are fucking everything up. And you're like, you don't see anything but beauty. And then that starts to wane away. And then you're sort of neck deep into this already. You might even have children and you're like, fuck, this is the

wrong one. And I mean, fair enough. It might be, there might be irreconcilable, not even just those. I love that concept of irreconcilable differences because you won't be the same. You, you should, I mean, opposites attract is, is such a, a cliche, but it is true in so many ways. You want the balance. You see something in them that you don't have and vice versa. And if you understand those things, it can make them, it can make it so beautiful. Right. But the other idea about that, I think is really interesting where it's like, then the dance that's going to be required to understand why they show up the way they show up is often where the work is. And it changes in every season. Yes.

That's the that's the good news about the fact that it's fucking exhausting and we get why there's 60 percent divorce. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Because what we're also not saying here as it relates to trauma or relational injuries in those early years, I think Harville Hendricks talks about and Helen had talked about this unconscious picker that will actually pick somebody and unconsciously our system sees the similarity. It will not be visible. It won't be in our field of conscious awareness. And yet we recognize something familiar and we're like, we can go back and heal that work that or heal those injuries. And so we'll actually unconsciously choose someone

that replicates the injury or the patterns that were so, so difficult and painful in early childhood. And so then talk about confronting, right? It's like, okay. And that's where the work lies as well as do we look at this as an invitation around what is this evoking? What is this bringing up in me? And can I turn towards this with consciousness to heal and grow? And obviously we need a lot of safety and support to do that. So it's complicated. Yeah. Safety is the issue. I mean, I think if, if, if there is a massive disruption of safety, it becomes even more difficult, right? So when I think about domestic violence and, you know, those sorts of experiences, what I, what I wonder a little bit about is like, do you think that you can get back there? Like in your work with couples, I often hear people say,

you know, do you think it's ever a possibility to get back? It's lost. You know, is there a point of no return for people when they step into your office? Are you sort of like, oh gosh, we have one that's really willing and the other one is so far gone, it's not even going to happen. How do you determine that? What do you see in those experiences? Well, I, I, I'm sad to say that it does exist. I don't know that it's the most common. Uh, but what I will see in that regard is where one person is really motivated and the other person is showing up physically, but emotionally they're withdrawn. They're checked out. They perhaps even got one foot out of the door. And that is a progression. It's taken years for them to get to that place. And they've lost faith. They have little energy. And this is where there's something called discernment counseling,

I think can be really helpful before trying to forge through. Because people, this is the common narrative for people that are really struggling and even contemplating divorce is I think less so now because of the information and how much people are being much more educated. And so they're much more prime to get help sooner rather than I think the old statistic was, it's like waiting seven years and then trying to get help. And what I would see is the old kind of narrative is, oh, just want to give this my best effort. I want to have a clear conscience that I did everything that I could. So they're showing up physically, but emotionally they're already kind of through in the towel. And so to that point, it can be really difficult, but discernment counseling, I interviewed a woman.

She was, I thought she did a fabulous job of describing this, but essentially it's giving a lot of room and, and the clinician will work with them separately and together and really helping them look at, okay, you have three options. You can continue to do what you're doing, which isn't working. You can get a divorce or separate, or you can create something new. And let's, I think there's a few months or even six months that they might give it or three months. I can't remember. It's a short duration, maybe even 12 sessions or something. I'm not sure. And let's see if we can come to a decision. And then in those individual, and even in the couple sessions,

there's not the pressure that we're doing couples work. It's a lot of room around like, how are we even wanting to do this? Like really wanting to do this and giving a lot of room and space for the ambivalence around what's, what's happening in that ambivalence and giving lots of space for that, because people tend to feel really guilty or feel a lot of, you know, whether or not they have religious beliefs or family pressure, or even their own sense of identity of what it means to separate or, you know, there's a lot. Responsibility to their kids and financial worries and like all of those things that are just so stressful. Okay. And where, I mean, again, we were this,

you're such an expert in the world of criticism. So where does criticism sort of play when we start to talk about sort of those disconnections? Because I would imagine that that criticism in and of itself is a very powerful tool to disconnect people. Yes. Yes. Well, I will say, especially in the West, I know you're in Canada and I'm in the U S and, uh, from more Western cultures, I think there is a emphasis on being productive and achieving and even being intellectual or having an ability to think critically. Like we tend to revere those qualities. And I think a lot of people who use their mind and professions, it can be a difficult thing to switch hats, like almost imagining like I'm a doctor, I'm an attorney, I'm a scientist, I'm a whatever the position is that requires that level of intellect or making decisions.

And it's like one's wearing those that hat all day, and then they come home and they're feeling like this is been highly reinforced in their life. They've gotten a lot of accolades. It's what they feel a lot of pride in this ability to critique and analyze and assess and give feedback. Right. And so what we don't always hold in our mind and in our heart is that our intimate partner, again, the glue is the sense of safe Haven that we're taking care of each other. It's a place that we can let our armor down. We can let all the thing, we can exist in a place where we feel seen. We see, we are understood all of these things that are the glue and our partner. Isn't that interested in being evaluated in

unless they solicit it. So there's a big difference between the unsolicited feedback that often even in good intent can feel like criticism. And then there's the things that get escalated that feel like attacks when it's critical or even name calling or character attacks. So I think again, it can take its continuum, but even the unsolicited feedback I think is still in the realm of criticism. And so if, if, you know, we want to give feedback, we can also say i have some thoughts if you're interested i'd love to share but also not intruding or imposing that on another it's particularly our loved one because again we want to feel loved we want to feel this sense of safe

connection that's what why we're together and so, and what we've talked about here today lends towards these dynamics that the criticism defensiveness, if one is more prone to using the intellect for some of the reasons we've already talked about, that perhaps it wasn't a part of their family upbringing. It's not a way that they orient through the world. They're just a little bit more rely on their intellect. They're going to approach difficulties through the intellect. It can feel safer. It's much more vulnerable to be in the emotional space. And especially when we haven't had great experiences that people will respond to us or people are interested, or that we even can give permission to even know what we're feeling. So it's an easy go-to. It's like the low hanging fruit is to spot off on the criticism. And so

referencing the Gottman Institute too, I love their quote about underneath every criticism is a longing. And so that's incredibly important. And I can say more, but I know you'll comment. So no, no, no, no, no. I really love that. I was just thinking about Aaron and I, when you were saying those things, because it is so true about one of the most things I wrote about this and feeling seen was like when he becomes condescending to me. Um, and I feel like he, that intellectual place really happens a lot. And I just fucking hate it because I go into them like you, Hey, I can play this game too. So watch me. Don't you ever be condescending. And I think that that it's so true that that comes from such a place of safety and comfort and, you know, feeling like when we push those

vulnerabilities and it's like, you know, context is the prerequisite for empathy. When we understand why our partners engage in criticism in this way, or when we understand our partner doesn't condone, support, excuse behavior, but it provides that sense of, I get it, which then allows there to be some empathic response that then can maybe formulate a switch in the way that that's communicated. Right? Is that fair? Yes. And I can tell you, I mean, I have deep examples, but I will share one that's not as deep. I can share one as it relates to the attachment system and the deep vulnerability that lies there. But one quick example, just to reference some of these differences. So my husband and I have been living more remotely the last year, and we were in Asheville,

North Carolina at the time. And we were at the kitchen table and we at the time. And we were at the kitchen table and we were contemplating, should we take a trip aside weekend trip to go to the beach? And I am personality wise, the one that's going to research, want to do lots of options. And I tend to want to do more. He tends to want to do less. And so I'm getting excited. I'm talking about how we can fit this into our schedule. And I'm starting to feel him resist. Like I can see it on his face.

And he's saying some things that sound to me like a criticism that why do we want to run ourselves ragged? What's the point of stressing out? And I'm like, I don't want to stress us out. Like that's not at all. Excuse me. That's not out? And I'm like, I don't want to stress us out. Like, that's not at all. Excuse me. That's not at all what I'm feeling. And so it kind of this loops for a few pattern or a few cycles.

And I'm like, okay, what's going on here? And I was like, are you feeling resistant? Or is this what tell me? And he was like, yeah. And then I was like, okay, I was just pausing and contemplating. So the context was, okay, I know my husband can get overwhelmed. I know he's got a strong preference for streamlining, being much more efficient, doing less because it manages the overwhelm.

And I was like, are you feeling overwhelmed over here? And he's like, yes. And I was like, oh, I can turn towards that. I can show up for you and making this feel more doable. But I definitely could say prior to that in the few loops before I'm like feeling quite defensive, like I'm not trying to run us ragged. I'm not trying to be all stressed out. And I, what was underneath it for him was a need or a request, but he at the moment, for whatever reason, wasn't articulating that. And so we were able to get there. And that just set us that kind of popped that little tension and it helped us get on the same page, which was so, so helpful. But I love to say

the anecdote to criticism is seeing if one can pause, slow down and look at, is there a request or a longing here? Or excuse me. Yes. The longings is, um, is the Gottman's work. I say a request or a reveal because sometimes the reveal, there is some vulnerability. And when we can make that visible, then that sets that dynamic. Because if I'm using criticism to protect myself, when I'm actually feeling... So the deeper example I'll reference. Is that okay if I share? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

So as I mentioned, the attachment research or the attachment styles that my husband and I were in an early iteration of our relationship where he would distance and I would pursue. So when he would distance, I could feel myself fear of abandonment, feeling scared, feeling anxious. And on the surface level, I might, it might be like, why is he not engaging? Does he, is he not wanting to put effort in? Does he like, I was making it about him around. Are you just not wanting, like, are you not, do you have enough, have enough courage or like, yeah, what's going on? Yeah. And so I was having all these kind of questions about him and how he was showing up, but when I could slow down, I could recognize, oh, I'm afraid that he's not

into this as much as I am, or I'm fear, I'm afraid of him not really wanting to be with me as much as I want to be with him. And so when I could connect with that, I could hold myself in that. And I wasn't abandoning it, right? Trying to just kind of spin off. And I could reveal that to him and show that to him, even in those early stages. That's why I was like a little bit awkward sometimes. Cause this was not your kind of sexy, like all like playing your cards, all the dating games, like doing it all, doing it all like nice and perfect. Um, I was trying to show him and do the sweaty 10 minute conversations. And so when I would show him what was on the inside, he is yet to not turn towards me. Even in his

distancing pattern, he turns towards me and we feel connected. That's the connection. So the reveal allowed him to see my vulnerability, what was happening on the inside. He could turn towards that rather than feeling like for him, something's up. I don't know what's going on. She's not telling me, but she's getting curious about me and in my lane. I'm not interested in that. Yeah. I love that so much because I think, you know, you've said this, I had somebody, a dating expert who was on the podcast that I interviewed not very long ago. And she said, I in in the biggest struggles, if we can continue to turn towards each other. And I think that is such a great I mean, I talk about this in couples therapy all the time. I mean, oftentimes, the only thing I need them to do, whether it takes 30 seconds or six sessions, is to actually just get

them to look at each other. Like not even just like an emotional turn towards each other, but like a physical turn towards each other. Because there's so much written between you that that doesn't have words. And the more defensive we become, the less we stop looking or, you know, we stop looking for sure. Not the less we stop looking. And I think that's the point of it all. I just I mean, all of that is so profound. And I think, you know, I love this conversation. I hope our community love this, too. I cannot wait for the comments on this episode. You are just such a gem. Thank you so much for doing this for me.

I knew this community would fall in love with you. Where can we find you? Yeah. Well, I will just mention the podcast, which again, you were a guest on and you could probably even put the link on the show notes. I really enjoyed that episode. I keep referencing the quote to people Ram Dass around. We're all just walking each other home. It's such a good one. So the empowered relationship podcast is that and can be found on any podcast player. Also my website is drjessicahiggins.com. And there's lots more on that website around how to deepen and practice how to get support around implementing and

deepening the dive on these principles. Oh, and your course and like all of those things. It's so amazing. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I cannot wait to be in person with you someday, because I think we could talk for days and hours. And so we'll, I cannot wait. I'm going to be cheering you on. I cannot wait to see what happens and everything that you're doing to change this world. And, um, just re-listen to both of these episodes there, friends, because, um, this is like therapy in real time, therapy in real time. All right. Thank you for joining us, everybody. My fellow humans, I cannot wait to, to meet with you again, right back here and to you, uh, Dr. Higgins. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

The everyone comes from somewhere podcast is produced by the incredibly talented and handsome team at snack labs. Mr. Brian Seaver, Mr. Taylor McGillivray, and the infamous Jeremy Saunders. The soundtracks that you hear at the beginning of every episode were created by Donovan Morgan. Our executive producer is Marty Piller. Our PR big shooters are Des Veneau and Barry Cohen, our agent, my manager, Jeff Lowness from the Talent Bureau.

And emotional support, of course, is provided by, relatively speaking, our children. For the record, I am a registered clinical psychologist in Alberta, Canada. The content created and produced in this show is not intended as specific therapeutic advice. The intention of this podcast is to provide information, resources, education, and maybe even a little bit of hope. Transcription by CastingWords into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to

be who you're not, just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca.