Unlonely with Dr. Jody Carrington - What Happens if you Don't See Them?: Rowan Jette Knox

Episode Date: January 4, 2024

Rowan Jetté Knox (formerly known as Amanda Jetté Knox) is the author of the best selling memoir, Love Lives Here. a deeply personal memoir about facing lifelong trauma head on, and bravely healing the scars that endure. His new book, One Sunny Afternoon, was JUST published, you can find it everywhere books are sold. It is a searing testament to Rowan’s extraordinary reckoning with his past and present, and to find hope in his future. In this episode Dr. Jody and Rowan have a truly enlightening conversation about Rowan's journey through this amazing thing we call life. He breaks down so many barriers and uses his lived knowledge to help so many of us understand many things we know nothing about. This conversation is a must hear. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. Let's start here, where I think the answer begins for everything and everybody, in the place of acknowledgement. Indigenous peoples in this country have taught me the most about what acknowledgement truly means. So everything that I've created for you happened here on Treaty 7 land,

which is now known as the center part of the province of Alberta. It is home to the Blackfoot Confederacy, made up of the Siksika, the Kainai, the Pikani, the Tatina First Nation, the Stony Nakota First Nation, and the Métis Nation Region 3. It is always my honor, my privilege mostly, to raise my babies on this land where so much sacrifice was made. And to build a community, invite a community in, talk about hard things as we together learn and unlearn about the most important things, that we were never meant to do any of this alone. oh my fellow humans welcome welcome in, welcome back. I say this a lot around here, but I have to tell you, I didn't sleep very well last night

because I was so excited about this interview. Part of my favorite thing about this podcast so far is to sink into stories that are things, ways of operating that are so foreign to me, which is the number one indicator that I, uh, it's exactly where I need to be. And so I cannot wait to bring this next guest to you. Um, I want you to meet Rowan Jette Knox. Rowan Jette Knox, formerly known as Amanda Jette Knox, is the author of the best-selling memoir, Love Lives Here. I've read it. It is beautiful. A deeply personal memoir about facing lifelong trauma head-on and bravely healing the scars that endure.

His new book, One Sunny Afternoon, was just published. You can find it everywhere books are sold. It is a searing testament to Rowan's extraordinary reckoning with his past and present and to find hope in his future. Fellow humans, welcome to the stage, recently transitioned into this beautiful, sexy man, Rowan Jette Knox. I need a clap. Wow. What an intro. What an intro.

Do you want me to go on the road? Do you want me to go on the road with you? Yes, please. I need to be introduced like that all the time. That just speaks to both my heart and my ego. And as we know, the difference between empathy and judgment often lies in understanding where another comes from. So tell me, Rowan, where would we start with you? Where have you came from? Oh, that's such a big question. I come from a lot of things. First of all, geographically, I come from Ottawa and I'm currently in Toronto. But I lived in Ottawa and the Ottawa area most of my life, also largely on the Quebec side, so the Gatineau side.

And if you want to get really, really specific, this lovely little town called Elmer, Quebec is where I'm from. It is where my family of origin largely still lives. So I'm back there a lot. Where I come from emotionally, a pretty good place these days. Not so good of a place earlier on. Where I come from mentally, well, I'm in the middle of a move right now. So, I mean, I am just mentally half in boxes, if you will. Oh, my gosh. Talk about being half in boxes, because I feel like that is a metaphor for these beautiful books.

There is trauma. There is discovery. There is reckoning. There is heart-cr crushing pieces of your story where that human, that little human got completely obliterated. And somehow they put themselves back together in a marriage that then gets blown apart in so many ways as everybody finds out there there's children involved in this process who are the most remarkable humans I as I listened and I watched in this story that's all I know is about them on paper tell me those pieces some of those pieces

of that story that I got to tell you, it has just taught me a lot. If I go back to my younger years, I really wanted to I was bullied, like relentlessly bullied. And I would I would take it like bully, bully extreme. There's a there's a lot we can talk about there. But essentially when I emerged from a lot from that place into adulthood, I came out of it with this idea that in order to stay safe, I had to fit in and fly under the radar, which if you have read my books. But and this is this is I mean, this is the part I love the most about my books, but, and this is, this is, I mean, this is the part I love the most about your books, right? You were born a girl, you're born a female into a family who tell me about that family of origin just real quick.

So I, uh, my, my father left when I was a baby and have, I have a stepfather who came in and he's been like, he's my dad. He's been there my whole life pretty much. Um, but that sort of immediately, I think that sort of sent a signal to me that, that I wasn't worth sticking around for once I found out that my bio dad had left and I never really, yeah, the abandonment of it. And he's, he's, um, he's, uh, indigenous. He was Ojibwe and I was therefore disenfranchised from that entire side of my family as well. And I never got to know that culture and I'm just starting to really, you know, dip my toe in now. Um, so, so there was a whole lot of trauma around that. My, my family of origin consists of me, the, the eldest, my parents, and three younger siblings

who are all my, my stepfather's siblings or stepfather's children rather. Um, and, uh, and my youngest brother was born when I was 12 and he has down syndrome. So he was quite ill when he was little coolest guy you will ever meet in the world, by the way, he's like the, he's like the coolest sibling out of all of us. But, but yeah, like, you know, it was, it was, it was, it was hard in the sense that while I was going through a lot of stuff, there wasn't a lot of focus on me because I was so much older than everybody else. So while I'm dealing with the bullying, while I'm dealing with, you know, all the other things that I was dealing with back then, I didn't have, my parents tried, they really did try to the best of their ability, but they were not able to

necessarily pick up on everything that was happening with me. Mm-hmm. Did she know if I take you back to, you know, being in that family system, did it feel uncomfortable in your body the whole time in your life? Or do you remember a moment, a piece? I mean, you write about it so eloquently, but I wonder. There definitely was very early on this feeling that I wasn't who society made me out to be. So I was assigned a label. I was assigned female at birth. I was given a very feminine name, which is a lovely name and I'm not bothered by it. It's the name that I used to have. And I tried to fit that mold really hard because that was sort of what was expected of me.

Right. My parents were really cool in the sense that like they, you know, my dad knew that I loved Lego, for example. So, you know, early on in the summers, like early, early morning, he'd get up and he'd go around and find all the garage sales and pick up as much Lego as he could for me. And I could sit in his garage and he would, you know, tinker on cars and I'd read like popular science and popular mechanic. And, you know, so I was always allowed to explore whatever I wanted to explore, but society very much was like, you're a girl and this is who you are. And even if you relate to boys, well, that kind of just makes you a tomboy

and, you know, but you need to be a girl. So I learned very early on to sort of shelve that. And then the other aspect of that is being so bullied for so long and having all those things happen to me. I learned that, you know, the last thing I wanted to do was stand out. I couldn't stand out because every time I did stand out in, in a way that was queer, like an attraction to girls, um, you know, uh, being perceived as a girl, right. If I was attracted to girls, if I showed anything like that, then, then that was, that was, you know, I was a lesbian. So, you know, they would, they would attack me for it. And so, yeah, I just learned to fly under the radar and I pushed that way, way, way, way down and I ignored it for a long time.

Oh, and, and, way down and I ignored it for a long time. And do you hear that? I mean, I know so much and I'm conscious between what I want to get out of this interview and what I really want the world to hear from you, because I think that is just such a common experience of people who, you know, have this response to like, do you choose this? Does somebody make you get into this body, not loving the way that you were born, all those kinds of things. And I, I, if there's anything that I want anybody to listen to this, um, podcast and hear so clearly is that it is such an isolating experience when you're assigned something and you don't feel like it fits and not just like,

uh, it doesn't, you know, I, I like this or I like something else, but like to the core of you, how isolating that becomes, can you, is this true? It's absolutely true. And this is why it is so hard when I hear parents say like, you know, we should be entirely responsible for what our children learn at home. They shouldn't learn about LGBTQ people at school. That should be up to the parents to do that. And, you know, you know, when the parents feel that the child is ready, but here's the thing I know from personal experience, being a Gen Xer that we weren't talking about that around the kitchen table. My parents, my parents are very open-minded people, but they did not make a point of bringing that stuff up. My mom hung around with a whole group of lesbians, but she never told me they were lesbians. She didn't purposely admit it, reflected in other people's lives.

I never got to see families who looked like my family. There was nothing. It was just this one idea, this nuclear, you know, hetero family. That is what life was supposed to be. And that's what I thought was my goal. So, yeah, it is. It's a very isolating experience when you know that doesn't fit for you. You know that isn't who you are.

And I love this to your point, right? You had no access to books and teachings and nobody was allowed to speak about the opportunity to love of anybody else and look at you now. And I think, you know, when I hear this rhetoric around, let's not induce all of this knowledge into children because we're going to make them go one way or the other. Knowledge is power. You can't make people, I mean, and maybe this is where I disagree with the vast majority of other people who feel differently about this, is that you can't actually make a kid or a human do or be anything to the core of them. You can provide opportunities and experiences. And when you are so isolated and there's none out there, that's when our babies die. That's what isolates somebody to feel like they are not seen and not heard. That's the fundamental basis.

My latest book is called Feeling Seen. And I think it is really the only thing that matters in this world. When people feel seen, they will rise. And when they don't, the ultimate fear is that they will erase themselves. Yeah. And if they don't erase themselves, and this is, this is my whole job. I've been working on, on protecting trans kids for almost 10 years now. And, um, and they're, they are one of the most vulnerable, vulnerable. I can speak. It's fine. Did I mention I'm in the middle of a move? But they are the most vulnerable group of children out there.

When we when we ignore that, when we suppress that, what ends up happening is that these kids, if they don't, you know, take their lives, which is a real possibility, they grow up and their parents say, why doesn't my child talk to me anymore? I don't understand that they move away. They move as far away as they can. They go to somewhere that is far safer for them and they start over. Right. So it's like you're, you're all you're doing when you tell a child, you, you can't be who you are. You know, you can't be like that is you're just staving it off until later. And the, you know, the best outcome isn't that your child isn't going to be like that. The, the, the best outcome in that case is your child's going to probably be traumatized, deal with everything you did to them and then have to go start their life over. Yes. Here's the definition of empathy. You do not have to condone, support, believe, even understand somebody's position,

but I desperately want you to hold judgment for a second and try to see what it's like to be another human being. And I think the issue in this world right now is so much about our ability to have empathy. And I, you know, can you, I want to know the difference between, can you help me with some terminology? Because I think there's some misunderstanding about being gay, being a lesbian.

What does it mean to be trans? Can we start like at 101? Is that okay? Absolutely. And this is something that, you know, I still get this again. I've been doing this for 10 years and I still get people saying, stop sexualizing children when I talk about trans issues and it has nothing to do with sexualizing anybody. So when we talk about the LGBT community, for example, and I know we talk about more letters than that, but let's just talk about that for a minute.

You have lesbian, gay and bisexual. Also falling into that would be something like pansexual. There are a number of other things, but like that is all about who you're attracted to. Nothing else. Just that who I am attracted to. And then the T is for transgender. That is who I am, how I see myself, who I am at the core of my being. So it is, it is a very different thing. Transgender can mean I was, you know, when, when I, like for, in my case, for example, it's very binary. So we talk about binary genders, that would be man or woman. Right. So in my case, I came out of my mom, the doctor looked at me and said, you know, look between my legs and said, that's a girl. You have a healthy girl. Congratulations. But I'm not a girl. I don't feel like a girl. And I've, I've never felt like a girl. So I am a trans man. I am a man who was assigned female. And then there are P and then you have the vice, you know, vice versa. You have, you know, um, people who are trans women who were assigned male at birth. And then you have non-binary identities and that there's a,

there's a number, you know, there's gender queer, there's a, you know, people, people use different labels to describe themselves, which is completely fine. Right? Like we desperately want to be seen. And that's why, I mean, there's so many conversations about why is there so many letters? Okay. Fuck off. Because when you don't feel like there is a place you fit in the world, then I want, this is this, let me describe it. Let me tell you what I think. And then we're like, well, there's too many fucking letters. I can't remember. Oh Jesus. Uh, I know. Carry on. Oh, I love that. Thank you. Thank you. Um, and I, and I think like that's, that's,

that's it. Right. So it's like, you know, if you're non-binary, I have a child who's non-binary. And so what that means is they don't identify as being male or female. And there's somewhere, you know, outside of that or in the middle of that or whatever it might be. And that helps them feel the most comfortable that they, that they can feel. And I'm like, good on you. Right. Who, and maybe somebody doesn't have to understand that, but you can respect it. You can just go that, you know, I don't understand why somebody gets up at like 6.00 AM on a Sunday and plays golf, but I, I respect that they do that too. It's not for me, but good on you. I'm not going to judge you for it. And here's the issue I think, and I love how you, thank you so much for that explanation because I've never even heard it done so beautifully that the LGB is really about who you're attracted to. The T is really about who you are in this body. So you can be attracted to somebody else and be a woman identified gender. I mean, you at birth, you're a girl, they say you're a girl and you're attracted because you're a lesbian to women. You don't

want to know parts are changing. You are very comfortably in a woman's body. You were attracted to a woman. What is so interesting to me, if they're, am I getting, there's a really easy, there's a really easy way to say that too. So, um, we have transgender than the way I fumble fucked my way through that. Okay. It's earlier for you than it is for me. Um, we, um, you know, but we have like, you know, we have transgender to describe trans people. And then there's this huge backlash against this idea of cisgender. Cis just, so cis means on the same side of as a scientific word. Cis is on the side of, trans is opposite side. That's why you have transatlantic, for example, right? So cis is not a slur. Cis is not a cruel word. It's not

derogatory. Cis or cisgender just means you identify with the gender that you were assigned at birth. I am trans. I do not identify with the gender I was assigned at birth. The end. It's not complicated. So yeah, a cisgender person can be a lesbian or can be a gay man or whatever. A trans person can also be gay, right? But not all trans people are gay, right? Like I really dig the ladies. That kind of makes me straight. You know what I mean? Yes, it does. I love that. That is the best. I just have to repeat this. Okay. So cisgender is just a word for identity, right? Like, so it's like you, you were assigned the one at birth. You're cis. It's not a cruel word. It just means like that's, I'm a cisgender woman. You're a cisgender woman. Trans is that I don't identify like it's just a word like the transcontinental. It's just is that I don't identify with what I was assigned at birth. Huh? You know this. I was so excited about my insight that I was telling Marty all about it. Okay, sorry. Okay. Hey everyone.

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See a real doctor on your phone in minutes, 24-7. Get Maple. Get well. Sooner. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are.

So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. I love that because so many people, I think, and I'm speaking for the masses, get scared about all the names and the nuances and what the fuck am I supposed to say? And what does that mean? And who is that? Do you know what I mean? And I and I would say, like, in my head, what I feel so strongly about in this way is that, like, we all desperately want to be seen and feel like we fit into this world. And when we don't, particularly in the in this identifying as non-binary, I am so grateful to the humans who are brave enough to step into that world and, and not that world to, to really identify, be able to put words to that thought, because everything in this world is a spectrum. Everything in this world is a spectrum. And we have been born in for many generations taught

that you then shove one side, shove the other. All so many of us, all of my children, I have three, I can place them differently on that spectrum just because of who they are. I children, I have three, I can place them differently on that spectrum just because of who they are. I mean, I have twins, they're born the same day, same uterus, same fucking problem. One boy, one identified boy, one identified girl at birth. And they are remarkably different on the spectrum. I have a very feminine, lovely, connected boy who just wants to talk about pretty things. And then I have this girly girl who also wants to talk about pretty things. And then I have this girly girl who also wants to talk about those things. And they all at this point would identify as straight. But we have conversations all the time about, you know, I tell the story all the time because we

were playing the game of life with my personal husband, who is a farmer and like small town Alberta boy. And this was going to decide whether we stayed married or not. Because my son said to him when it came time to get married in the game of life, he's like, okay, dad, so what's your choice? You're going to be gay today? And I think about how that would not have been safe or not even safe. That's not a right word. It wouldn't have even been conscionable one generation ago to have that conversation. And now we have a group of

brave humans who can throw those things out and can be very clear. Asher, my son, can say things to me about pronouns and everybody goes, in our family so far, not necessarily grandparents, but everybody else is like, mm-hmm, yep, no problem. This is what it...

What has happened in one generation is amazing to me. And where we need to go is,, yep, no problem. This is what, like, what has happened in one generation is amazing to me. And where we need to go is, of course, fucking exponential. But tell me about that. I don't really know what that was, but your thoughts. The kids are, the kids are fucking all right. That's the thing. The kids are all right. The kids are fucking all right.

Yes. They are. They are. And you know what the great equalizer there is as many issues as I have with social media, I have to do it for my job. So I'm on it a lot. Um, social media is a great equalizer here. So that, that, that, and, and, and that coupled with good education, you know, in schools at home, in the community, that does everything. But I think the kids are way ahead of us because they have grown up being

exposed to people outside of their community. We didn't have that. We were, you know, I was, I was in a school where I think there were two or three kids who weren't white. Right. And, and that was my entire experience with somebody who was black. My entire experience for years with somebody who was Lebanese, my, you know, and, and so like, they don't have that they might yeah they might still be in in schools where everybody sort of looks the same or sounds the same or whatever it might be but they then they get to go on tiktok or instagram or you know wherever the cool kids hang out these days i don't know i'm not cool but like you know that they they're there and they're watching you know their friends are sharing video and they're learning they're learning about non-binary identity so we'll come to the table and go did you hear that there are non-binary people and they'll say

yeah of course there are and you did you know that outside of our society there have been non-binary people for centuries you know in, in fact, indigenous cultures used to, and they'll just, they'll just go on. It's amazing. That's how they're getting it. I know. And can I just tell you this? This is the, this is the part that I really want. If you're listening to this today to hear is that I have so much empathy for people

who don't get it, who are scared, who this is threatening because fear is the most debilitating factor. But people are hard to hate close up. And I'm with you. I grew up in this small, straight, white town where I cannot. I mean, I saw a person of color. I think I was in grade three for the first time. So when I hear people say, you're born a man, be a man, you're born a woman, be a woman, I would love to have people have conversations with you, with somebody who just can, people are hard to hate close up. And exposure becomes the quintessential piece of judgment, of decreasing judgment. It doesn't mean you need to change

your opinion. Please hear me this. You, you, we all come from somewhere and what is deep in our bones about the way the world operates is really why we're here to learn more and grow and be open to things. You still get an opinion about whatever the fuck you want an opinion about, but it is so critical to me, this exposure piece about, I'm so grateful for our kids because I think this, you know, if I look back in many generations ago, this happens in every single generation, right? Think about the movie Footloose. The music is bad. The Beatles were going to kill everybody. You cannot smoke the weed in the 60s. And now this conversation around really who we are as humans, there has never been a time where we've had so much freedom. And the risk is there's no role clarity, which is so fucking scary

for people. Yeah. And I think that's, that's why I wrote my first book, like, you know, the first book being the sort of the jump off point for my second book. but I wrote Love Lives Here because my child came out as trans in 2014 at the age of 11, told us that they were not the boy that society thought that they were. And I had to do a lot of learning because I had stuff, that stuff about myself way, way, way, way down. I wasn't, it wasn't on my radar. About a year and a half after that, my partner, who I'd been married to for 18 years at the time, she came out as a trans woman. I knew her as my husband. She was not my husband.

For 22 years, I knew this person as a man and she was not a man. And again, we had to go through this like evolution as a family, a transition, if you will. And, you know, and and and at the end of the day, spoiler alert, everything's great. And that that book was a blueprint as far as I was concerned, not just about how our family handled it right, because I think overall we did. I definitely highlight all of my own personal mistakes and failings and that so people can learn from them. But I do so gently because I was trying to go easy on myself a little bit. But I really was very honest. But it was, you know, but society did a great job. Work did a great job. School came around and did a great job, but society did a great job. Work did a great job.

School came around and did a great job. Our friends did a great job. Our family extended family. So it was sort of like one of those, like here, look, here is a personal view of a family with two trans people in it. And as you can see at the end of it, we're all just better off. Nothing terrible has happened. The end. And that to me is exposure in what I hope is an accessible way. I feel like I write fairly accessibly. So I'm hoping that that

is an accessible primer for people. It is such an accessible primer. Can I just tell you, I mean, you need to get this book and your second book, One Sunny Afternoon, it was so funny because we got your books at the same time. Marty was reading one, I was reading the other. I started with this one. And she was like, no, no, no, no, no. That's not, I'm like, wait, wait till you get here. This is amazing. The story gets, so I mean, again, for our listeners, Rowan then Amanda gets into a relationship marries a man their children really bring to light so many of the things which our children

I mean I think about how much my children fucking make me think about things every single day but I yeah they're amazing right if you allow them to be if you allow them to be and as you allow them to be. And as parents, you two are just so remarkable to me because you allowed them to be. And can you, can you tell me real quick about your children? So you have three, is this right? Four, four, four children. Um, yeah, well, one,

one, one, I talk about right at the end of the first book, but we have four children. Yeah, well, one I talk about right at the end of the first book. But we have four children. Currently, they are age 26 to 16. But in the book, they're a few years younger than that. And our second oldest, I guess, but the fourth member is actually adopted. We adopted her as a teenager. So she was our trans child's best friend in middle school. And, uh, and she was going to age out of the foster care system. So we didn't want that to happen. That just seemed like a terrible,

terrible existence. And we loved her so much. So, yeah, so she is, uh, she is a member of our family as well. She's 21. Now we adopt it, well, she came to live with us at 15. We adopted her at 17. But our second born child is trans. And in the book, in the first book, they come out as a trans girl. And again, this is an exposure thing because in 2014,

we weren't talking about non-binary identities. Nobody, I think outside of maybe some very queer circles were talking about non-binary identity. So they did not get that exposure to it. They were like, I know I'm not a boy. Absolutely. No, I'm not a boy. So I must be a girl. Later on a few years ago, they were sort of like, Hey, you know what? I think actually non-binary suits me better. So they went from she, her pronouns. So they, them pronouns, um, you know, try it on a new name and are happy as can be. I love that. I love that. So that's that baby. What, tell me about the other two. Um, so we have two boys as well. Um, yeah, one is, uh, one is this amazing 26 year old man. Um, I got pregnant with him at 19, had him when I was 20 and I was terrified.

I remember looking at him, um, when he was born, all 10 pounds, six ounces of him. What a monster. Excuse me? Yeah. He was our biggest. Our runt was 10 too. Like they were all huge babies i know we just have big babies in my family unlucky me um but but yeah so he was he was born and i remember looking at

him going like after everything i've been through all of the trauma all of the shit you know i'm 20 years old and i just looked at him i was like hey I was like, Hey, don't fuck this up. Please don't fuck this up. And he is, I mean, he's a, such a great human being staunch feminist treats his girlfriend like gold. Um, just a lovely, lovely man. Um, and we have a 16 year old who is a 16 year old boy. He's a 16 year old boy in every way. And he, uh, Jackson loves his dog. He loves his dog and he loves his friends and he's an absolute sweetheart and, you know, full of attitude. And that's exactly where he should be right now. Oh, exactly. And that's the hardest part. Sometimes his parents, well, we talk about

that a lot around here. Here's what I love so much about this is that this is such a beautiful love story of just allowing people to be human. And being human is messy and it can be anything you want it to be. If the people, if there's enough people in your world that allow you to explore and be curious and wonder about some of those things. Now, there's a whole new, as you said, even 2014, I mean, we're not even necessarily a decade into this. And so there's a lot of argument and fear and conversation around, okay, so fine. What does it mean if this, what does it mean if this, what does it mean if this, right? What, we don't have a script for this friends. And it's okay

if we figure this out together with empathy. And one of the conversations we start, I listened to the Dax Shepard, Jonathan Van Ness conversation, who I have a huge love for both of them, having a conversation around transgenderism in sport. And you, I see your eyes are closing. I can only imagine how many times you get asked or have to sort of have conversations about this. And if you will humor me, I would love your thoughts on what it's like to write a new way of operating in a world where we are trying to be more open and figure out the new, I don't know if it's rules of the game, but tell me your thoughts around this when people get really scared around. Now, the question, I mean, let me set the stage is as a trans human being, when you depending on when you transition the conversation in sport,

particularly higher level professional sport is if you were born a if you are identified as a boy at birth, you cannot then play female sports if you then are a transgendered woman. And the fear is, mostly from transitioning into, you know, transgender women in female sport, is then you would have this advantage. And some of this neurobiologically, there is evidence to suggest there's differences in strength between those who identify as male and male and those who are born as male versus female. I'm most worried and I'm most interested in your thoughts about the other 99.98% of people we're talking about when we talk about excluding people from sport. Can you tell me your thoughts? I have so many thoughts. How much time do you have? I will take you forever. This is amazing. I have a lot of thoughts. Um, first of all,

you know, um, I love when people ask me this because I'm like, I don't play team sports. I don't play competitive sports. I lift weights at home. And I do Pilates and I do cardio. Like, there you go. That's my, those are my sports. Nobody cares how strong I am when I do those things. I will say that I live with three trans women and I have seen one go through the process of hormone replacement therapy. And we went from her by far being the strongest person in our relationship, in our marriage, to me having to open all the jars, me doing the heavy lifting, because I still have, because I have some testosterone in my body. Now I'm going to be medically transitioning, which means that I'm going to get a lot more testosterone very soon, but I still have more than she does. And I lift weights and I, you know, she, this is the running

joke that she just went from being really strong to like, not at all. And this is what happens. People don't understand how powerful hormones are. They do. They understand them in the sense of like, well, you know, if a trans woman competes with, with CIS women, then she's going to be stronger because testosterone makes you stronger. Testosterone does tend to make your muscles bigger. Testosterone does tend to do that. But also when you are no longer, uh, when you no longer have testosterone in your body, then all of that strength is gone. It's, it's incredible how fast it happens too. Um, so I guess that's one thing. And, and I think the other thing is like, like there are some really big, serious issues in this world. And what strikes me as odd is I can't really find another, I can't list another

example of sports policy that has had this much discussion from people who don't play sports and are not experts in sports. Like, like why are we sitting around coffee shops talking about trans people in sports when like you're, you know, the most you do is go to a hockey game sometimes. I'm, I'm so, this is, and this is where I ask, is it really about fairness to you or is it about transphobia because i think what happens is is it you know we we we use sometimes society parts of society will use um some kind of fear some kind of a wedge issue to um to you know incite hatred against a group. We've seen this with trans women in sports. We see this with trans youth

and the amount of disinformation and misinformation that I personally work on to dismantle all of the things that people think they know about trans healthcare for young people and don't actually know. I mean, it's unbelievable how much of my time is spent doing that over and over and over. Even though I wrote a book about it, I wrote a book about it. It's out there for people. I'm not the only one talking about this. This stuff is out

there, but this is what people are doing. So I really need people to step back and ask themselves, why is this important to me? And why, you know, and what could I learn about it so that I have a better understanding? Amen. Amen. And I, to that point, what I think is so critically important is I sort of try to wrap my head around this, right? I have three kids in sport. I think about the word fairness all the time. What I think is mostly unfair is when we make a decision that is single-handedly going to crush the soul of a seven-year-old, an eight-year-old, a 12-year-old. When we're talking about Olympic level qualifying, which is, this is 0.0002% of this conversation. What I really want us to be clear about in our minor sport associations, like soccer and hockey and baseball, when we talk about

these kids with the same heartbeat as yours and mine, we all started in exactly the same place. We all have exactly the same heartbeat, regardless of age, race, religion, socioeconomic status, gender identity. Our DNA as human beings is 99.98% the same. And when I have a little human who wants to just be seen in a community, don't fuck that up. Don't fuck that up. Understand where they are and who they are. And then when you're acknowledged, you rise. That is the fundamental basis of everything that happens in your books. That is the fundamental basis of how you live your life with your partners and your babies.

And Rowan, you are just such a steward. You are such a goddamn queen, king of the universe in this place. And I'm just, I'm so grateful for you. Do you, do you know how amazing you are? No, no, no. I mean, thank you. Um, no. So number one, imposter syndrome, we could talk about that all day. Number two, I don't see it as amazing. I see it as, I just, I think I was just gifted with a lot of empathy and I hate to see people struggle. It really hurts me. I was going, I was in Ottawa the other day for my book launch and on my way back from doing some live TV first thing in the morning, I walked down Rideau street. And if you know Rideau street, it's sort of like right in the downtown core, but it's also a place where there

are a lot of people dealing with the opioid crisis right now. A lot of people with substance use disorders who are out there and everyone was just ignoring them. Everybody was just ignoring them. And, you know, as somebody who spent six months of my life in a drug and alcohol rehab center when I was 14, I, I, I just know what it's like to just feel like people are discarding you. You just, you just don't matter to society. You're looked down on in society. So I can't solve everybody's issues, but I went in and I went into Tim Hortons and got a bunch of muffins and just gave them out. Like, I mean, cause I mean, what else, maybe at least I

can, I can, I can give someone breakfast, but like, I don't think that that is special. And I don't think anything I do is special. I don't think anything I do is, is, um, it's just one human trying to help other humans because like, Oh, I just know what it's like to hurt. I know what it's like to hurt. I know it's like not to be seen. I know what it's like to feel like nobody understands you. And I just don't want that for anybody. Oh, I can feel it. I can hear it in your voice. And I think that is, if anybody listening wants to find a purpose in this world, it is your ability to understand that we're just walking each other home. That your opinion about how somebody else needs to operate in this world is, you can have

that. Nobody's trying to change it. The idea is, we were never meant to do any of this alone. So move in, be kind. All of those things matter more today in this disconnected, sad, lonely world than ever before in the history. And I do think that you can't tell people how to do things. You have to show them. And you are showing the world, sir, how you do brave things. And I am just so grateful for you because you've taught me so, so very much, so very much. And I want to know, okay, so what's next for you, first of all? What's next for this amazing human? Because, oh, can I say one more thing? One of the things that I want you to check out is I, you did a post at one of your book signings this a couple of weeks ago that said your struggle

in this transition, I'm paraphrasing so you can tell me to fuck off if I get this wrong. But you sometimes wonder about as you transition into this body as a man, the struggles, and then you see a photograph of you and you say, there he is. And that brought me to tears because when I see a child who is acknowledged, when I notice a moment in therapy, when I get it, when I get the essence of what another is trying to explain to me or the world, I see that. And when I saw what you captured in that moment, there's a gorgeous picture of him sitting, you know, signing his books and the caption is, you know, there he is.

Oh, it just gave me chills. I, I, that is my favorite piece of your work to date. Oh, thank you. I just, I always say this to people too. They're like, well, what if, what if you change your mind? And I'm like, well, I'm not, cause you know, I'm just not going to, I know exactly who I am. It's not about changing my mind. It's about just owning who I am, but they'll say, what if, what if a child changes their mind? I'm like, what if a child changes their mind? What if a child comes to you and says, Hey, you know, I don't think I am this person. I think I might be this person. And you go, okay. Right. I mean, the worst is going to happen is what? So first of all, we talk to you, well, they might get surgery that you need to understand that

that is not a thing that is happening. And that is years and years down the road. So what we're talking about right now is you've got this, like, you've got this child who comes to you very vulnerably and says, I need you to see me right now. What happens if you don't see them is the question that I want to ask, because if you do see them and they go, yeah, you know what? I tried on some they, them pronouns. That's just really not working for me. I tried on this name. It was okay. But I think I'm going to go back to my like original name. So I get better. I think I might be gay. Okay. You know what? As it turns out, I dated a couple of people and I don't think I'm gay. So what do you know what you just taught your child? They can come to you with literally anything and you will love them through it. And if you don't do that, the consequences are far worse because then

they're never going to come to you again with anything because you have just shown them that you are not trustworthy with those closely guarded secrets. And, you know, I think for me, I get so much hate online. I got a ton of it today. Like I woke up to a ton of it. I posted a whole reel about it on, on, on Instagram earlier. And, you know, it's like, what are you sure it says so much more about the other person than it does about me. But when I get up in the morning and I get to be Rowan and when I see myself reflected back in photos more and more and more, and I see him, the man I was always supposed to be God, like I'm on the verge of tears right now. That is the most powerful thing. And once I have that, I can do anything. We just let people be themselves. They can do anything. Yeah. And you then have access once you get into that place of knowing who you are and being opened and kind, it's like the empathy then happens, right? And it breaks my heart when people are so fearful

and awful and mean, and I hate when those things happen, but it breaks my heart because I'm so clear on the idea of kindness and what is necessary. But please don't ever underestimate your words. Please really think about whether your fear needs to be impacted on somebody else. How you say what you say really matters. Please hear that today more than anything, because you're such a goddamn gem. Where can people find you? People can find me all over the place. So I'm currently touring my book once in the afternoon. So I'll be doing that for a little bit. And that is my personal story. I talked a lot about my first one, my personal story on confronting trauma. And I had what I would describe as a breakdown, went to the hospital, got the help I needed and started to really heal and, and, and thrive honestly over time. So it's a lot about that and finding myself along the way. Um, and I talk about it on social media. I talk about all kinds of things on social media. You can find me under

my name, Rowan Jette Knox on Facebook. I keep applying for a name change. They haven't done it yet, but I'm still known as the Maven of Mayhem, which is my blog monitor, moniker rather. So you can find me on there. Yeah, I'm all over TikTok, Instagram, Threads, Blue Sky, Twitter. I'm not on much these days. And yeah, everywhere.

The safest place to land, if you want to learn and explore and share with people who you think need to find a safe place to land. Rowan Jette Knox is the place. So listen to you, sir. This was phenomenal. Thank you for your time. Thank you for doing this for this community.

I am in awe of you and I cannot wait to watch all of the things because I know you're just getting started. And to everybody listening today, I hope you love this as much as I did. And I am so looking forward to your comments and your questions and further discussions because I'm here for all of it. In the meantime, look after each other, be kind to each other, and I'll see you here next week. I'm a registered clinical psychologist here in beautiful Alberta, Canada. The content created and produced in this show is not intended as specific therapeutic advice. The intention of this podcast is to provide information, resources, some education, and hopefully a little hope. The Everyone Comes From Somewhere podcast by me, Dr. Jodi Carrington, is produced by Brian Seaver, Taylor McGivray, and the amazing Jeremy Saunders at Snack Labs. Our executive producer is the one and only, my Marty Piller.

Our marketing strategist is Caitlin Beneteau. And our PR big shooters are Des Veneau and Barry Cohen. Our agent, the 007 guy, is Jeff Lowness from the Talent Bureau. And my emotional support during the taping of these credits was and is and will always be my son, Asher Grant. Woo! If you're at a point in life when you're ready to lead with purpose, we can get you there. The University of Victoria's MBA in Sustainable Innovation is not like other MBA programs. It's for true changemakers who want to think differently and solve the world's most pressing challenges.

From healthcare and the environment to energy, government, and technology, It's your path to meaningful leadership in all sectors. For details, visit uvic.ca slash future MBA. That's uvic.ca slash future MBA.