Unlonely with Dr. Jody Carrington - What is Sexism? - Dr. Jo-Ann Finkelstein

Episode Date: October 24, 2024

They say knowledge is power, but when it comes to girls and women, society often gets in the way of that empowerment. In this episode, Dr. Joanne Finkelstein sits down with Jody to explore the complexities of raising resilient girls in a world steeped in unconscious biases and gender norms. Her book Sexism and Sensibility sets the stage for a thought-provoking discussion on beauty culture, the pink tax, and the challenges of nurturing a healthy sense of entitlement in young girls. From deconstructing traditional gender roles to fostering open conversations with boys, this episode is a deep dive into building more equitable and emotionally balanced relationships for everyone.Instagram: @joannfinkelstein.phd Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at one you need, whenever you need it. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. at the beginning of every episode there will always be time for an acknowledgement you know the more we do this people ask why do you have to do the acknowledgement and every episode? I got to tell you, I've never been more grateful for being able to raise my babies on the land where so much sacrifice was made. And I think what's really critical in this process is that the ask is just that we don't forget. So the importance of saying these words at the beginning of every episode will always be of utmost importance to me and this team. So everything that we created here today for you happened on Treaty 7 land, which is now known as the center part of the province of Alberta. It is home of the Blackfoot Confederacy, which is made up of the Siksika, the Kainai, the Pekinni, the Tatina First Nation, the Stony Nakota First Nation,

and the Métis Nation Region 3. Our job, our job as humans is to simply acknowledge each other. That's how we do better, be better, and stay connected to the good. Welcome back. Welcome in this episode of Unlonely. Dr. Joanne Finkelstein. She's a clinical psychologist and a Canadian. And I, when I was prepping for this interview, probably the most prep I've ever done because I was blown away by her take on women, girls. What are we going to do in this season? What is our responsibility as parents, as humans to shift the unconscious bias that still dictates the way we show up in our houses, in our school systems, in our education, in our workforces? She is a Harvard-trained psychologist. She also went to Northwestern University, and now she has a private practice rooted in an understanding of how bias, social justice, and mental health intersect. Listen, I'm so jealous because she is an expert

blogger. She's written for Psychology Today, and her work's been highlighted in the New York Times, the Harvard Business Review, Women's Health, Oprah Daily, HuffPost, CNN. She is really becoming a voice of reason and solace as we try to make sense of moving forward for our boys and our women, humans in general. She is the author of Sexism and Sensibility. It is about raising empowered, resilient girls in a modern world. It came out in September. And we dive in today a lot. I have a lot of questions for her today about how do we kick the unconscious bias in the ass? What's our responsibility as parents? Why is it so fucking hard? How are we messing up our boys at the same time? We dove into the beauty culture, how we're up against it as

parents in the algorithms that sort of infiltrate all of us. And that a lot of people, not a lot of people, but there's certainly this movement of getting back to traditional wifery. So we dive into that. And I would love you to come on this journey with us because I think it's important. I think it's important for the next generation because it is no longer a time to be quiet. It's time to be entitled. Take a listen. Today, Dr. Joanne Finkelstein. Welcome to the show, my new best friend. How are you? It's so good to be here. I'm great. I'm good. Listen, a new book, September 3rd, is going to hit the market. This is your first book called Sexism and Sensibility, raising empowered, resilient girls in a modern

world. I have so many questions as the mom of a daughter, as a child psychologist, a former child, like I identified as a child psychologist for many points in my career. I want to know all the things. And, and first of all, this idea of, you know, before we got on, you said, this message has been in my bones since I was six. Take me back there. Tell me why. It is so powerful. Tell me the biggest thing.

What is burning so deep and why this is so exciting to get this out into the world? Okay. Well, I don't know why I picked age age six but there is always what comes up so maybe something happened at age six but you know basically i grew up with three brothers and you know a daily dose of gender bias my my parents were are very, but they had some really definite ideas about femininity that felt really limiting to me. And, uh, I was just with them recently and they asked me, is the hockey stick story in the book? And it's not, but it's become family lore because I wanted a hockey stick, like my three brothers had. We grew up in

Montreal with Les Canadiens. Of course, I wanted a hockey stick too. And my parents obliged. But the problem was they got me a pink one. And, you know, so when I would push back or complain that they treated me differently, they would say that they didn't, that that wasn't happening and that I was being dramatic or oversensitive, which, you know, now we know those are classic comments that girls and women hear a lot. But I sort of struggled to hide my feelings to avoid criticism. And it wasn't until I was doing a master's degree

that I started to understand my feelings a little bit more. I was writing for a paper in my developmental psychology class about how I was often told I was overreacting when I felt demeaned. And I was like, like, that blew my mind. I was like, oh, my God. Oh, because the teacher said, the professor said, she scribbled in the margin. That's what people say to, that's what people say to talk girls out of their feelings. And that really blew my mind. I felt I've never felt so validated in my life. Right. And so I love that. Yes. And so what I realized is the pink hockey stick is everybody's story, right? They might not have gotten a pink hockey stick, but they did get, you know, they did feel unseen, unheard, not taken seriously. I agree.

And, you know, fast forward to being a psychologist. No, fast forward to being a psychologist. Canadian and psychologist is why I'm in love with you. Tell me, how is that? How did that feel? Yeah. Like, because now, I mean, Harvard, you're in Chicago now, you know, growing up in Canada, you've really made your home in this very, I mean, divisive country.

And how has that played out in you in your work professionally? Well, I mean, what I start, you know, I've been in private practice for 24 plus years and I started to realize, right, just sitting with my patients, and I don't bring up sexism, or gender bias. But sitting and listening to them, I could see that it wasn't just me who was impacted by this stuff, right, that that so many girls and women, their sense of self, their sense of potential was affected by the gender bias that they had growing up in their homes and the sexism that they witnessed out in the world. And so I wanted to write a book that sort of gave parents the tools to help them address whatever like unconscious biases that they might be bringing into their homes and also help their girls be prepared

for gender bias. I mean, yeah, for gender bias and sexism that they were definitely going to encounter. Okay. And I love this point of an unconscious bias. Tell, I mean, tell this community a little bit more about that because I think that's what's really critical. I often feel judged. I remember going back to the farm in Alberta and they'd be like, oh, here we go, Jode, with all of your ideals about, you know, like, and, and this, this perception, right. That there's like a lesbian army boot feminist that's going to come in and just like, let's cut off all the penises. And, and I think like, talk to me a little bit about what, what an unconscious bias means and why it it's understandable how we got here, how at one point gender roles were set up in

a specific way for a specific reason. We've evolved so much. And so many of those ideals have become oppressive and we just don't even know it. Is that sort of true? And what is an unconscious bias in this place? Yeah. I mean, I think it's unconscious bias is just things that we like. For example, we start to define who our girls are before they're even born. Right. Like mothers, just mothers who know they're having a boy describe the baby as more vigorous and strong. But mothers that don't know what gender, what sex they're carrying report no such differences, right? And then the kids are born. And even though they might have all the same APGAR scores, they describe their boys as like, you know, these masculine little brutes, you know, and the girls is very fragile and sensitive.

And we we we think when boys cry, they're angry and girls cry. They're sad. Like we just right away start splitting these kids into such a binary, right? Another good example is like, you know, very famous study about asking mothers if they think their sons or their daughters will do better in this crawling experiment, right? And they say, oh, that, you know, it's a steep hill, it's going to be the, it's going to be the boys who do better, my girls aren't very, anyway, they can both climb it equally. But, but everybody says it's the boys that are going to do better. And so right from the beginning, we're like, oh, they're more physically capable because we're projecting all of this stuff onto them. And so then we spend more

time on the physicality of boys. And what do you know, they get put in sports, they get to be called the athletes, they get opportunities. And I think, you know, your work, you know, you've written for psychology today for, uh, Oprah's work. I, I am just blown away by the conversations you have around, you know, when we fast forward that, then does that affect women as we grow up, particularly in this modern world? So still in this moment, I think it's 86 cents on every dollar, but interestingly, marginalized women make even less than men doing the exact same job. And mothers, working mothers versus working fathers, I was reading in one of your articles, 66 cents on every dollar. Tell me a little bit more about that, how that plays out.

It's no longer just sort of like, uh-huh, boys are tougher, girls are a bit not as strong, so let's give them jobs accordingly. There are significant ramifications that our daughters, our nieces, our sisters are experiencing think the modern world piece of it is so important because women have made so much progress, right? We have a president in the United – we have a woman running for president in the United States. But often the progress that we've made is used to shut down the idea that there's still more to do. And there is so much more to do for all of the reasons you said, right? Like there's so few women in positions of power. There are, and women who sort of have the audacity, you know, I put that in quotes, in air quotes, to seek power or to be in the public eye, they get, they get just their appearance gets mauled, right. Or they get rape threats or it's just, you know, and so, and then, you know, it has these reverberating effects because girls say that they're let, like when there's, um, when they witness people running for, uh, women running for public office who are being criticized,

the day the girls say that they would be less likely to run for office. Okay. You know, and so- The oppression starts to happen, right? So it's like then that it plays itself out. Is that what you mean? Yeah. I mean, yeah. So what I like to, one of the things I write in the book is that these seemingly tiny psychological paper cuts accumulate, right? And they become these festering wounds of self-doubt. And they don't necessarily disappear in adulthood, right? Like I see women in my practice who are struggling with the same things as their teenage daughters, right? They pour their appearance into, I mean, they pour their creative energy into their appearance. They don't go for leadership positions because of shaky confidence, right? So there's all of these ways that we've taught them that what matters most,

like their most important asset is their appearance and their sexuality. And so, you know, they end up focusing on that and other people focusing on that and they stop really, they lose a felt sense of who they are because they're looking at themselves from an outsider's perspective. And tell me about, I mean, I have an 11 year old daughter and we talked a little bit about this off air, this idea of the beauty culture really perpetuating that idea. You know, we've came from a time where my body, my choice meant I'm going to empower you. And now, I mean, I've heard my daughter say it. You've written about your daughter talking about it. My body, my choice means I can wear

midriff clothes whenever I want. I can shop at Sephora and do all the things when I'm 11. How have we sort of misinterpreted that information and to make us more sexually attractive versus really I am empowered in my own body because the beauty culture to me and particularly, you know, the algorithmic exposure that we all set up in those little handheld devices, continual this onslaught of messaging now like we've never seen before. Tell me about how that has really affected or perpetuated, you know, stalled the movement of trying to create this sense of empowerment. Yeah. I mean, I think in a lot of ways, beauty culture has co-opted this idea of empowerment and they are telling girls and they're telling us, right? Like I, I, uh, I can't stop hovering over those like skincare ads and the, the, you know, I have the perfect neck now that I use this product, you know, and the more you, so these algorithms, what happened is when you click on something or you even just hover over it, right?

The algorithm is picking up on what your insecurities are as a girl, right? And it leaves no room for so-called flaws, pimples, tummy rolls. And it's really like exploiting a girl's insecurities. And so we need to really talk to our kids about like, this is actually happening. Like you're going to be feeling insecure one day and the algorithm is going to be saying, Ooh, this looks like something, this looks like a, you know, a future purchase right here.

And you know, like the whole idea with my body, my choice, which like, I'm really glad you brought that up because they have a point. It is their body. It is their choice. Um, but like, like I've said to my daughter, a cigar is a cigar is just a cigar, but a crop top dieting and Brazilian wax is never as simple as free choice, right? There's a whole culture behind us telling us what is, what makes us a girl. And I love this. I'm going to read you this line that you wrote

in that article. I think that you're referring to that. Just, I read this to my daughter. As soon as I finished this article, you said, I want you to feel great in your body and in the clothes you wear, but it's also important to remember you deserve real power, which doesn't come from others' approval for being hot. Boom! Huh? Like, because I struggle so much with this idea of like, okay, everybody's wearing this. You want this. You want the, can I have the nails?

Everybody got it. No, no, you cannot. And I'm like, how do the horses out of the barn in so many ways. And I think about this even in the social media space, because, you know, John Haight talks about everybody has his access to cell phones. And we really, since 2009 has seen such a massive decline in the mental health of kids these days. And it's associated with this idea that you are then perpetually inundated with so much noise that you can't help but infiltrate those things. And when the algorithm is feeding you that at 11 or

12 and our kids are spending, mine included, there's no judgment here in this space, a lot of time we're under-protecting them online so significantly that these messages are perpetuating. And so how then, right, like this idea of yes, be empowered, but do not confuse that with seeking the attention of others. Yeah. Can you, can you speak to that? Because I know that this is such a critical place in your book. Well, I think it's really important for parents to realize that they're playing the long game, right? So that we want them to, as they're growing up, to sort of start to incorporate those messages. But you can't expect an 11 and So when they become women, they realize like, I want true empowerment. I want my voice to be heard. I want policies to be made around who I am as a person and not only, you know, who men are as people.

And, and I think it's that fine line, right? Because people ask me all the time, you know, like, well, but you wear makeup and you do this with your hair. Like you have every right, whoever you are as a human to feel good in your body. I want you to be doing that for you. Right. And I think there's that big switch in the narrative around when I feel good in my body, for sure. There's, we cannot separate the two. We live in a very socially connected culture. I got it. It can never just be like, I got it. You know, there's always the reciprocity that happens, but really consciously having those conversations about, does it serve you well to have 10 inch nails while you're out frolicking in your junior high volleyball game? You know, like, is this, is this who, what is this? Are you going to play your best? What do you think about that? And maybe you will. I mean, I just watched team Canada get to the beach volleyball finals and one of the beautiful athletes, right. Is bejeweled. Okay, great. Like if that's your choice, there's no judgment here. I want to know why I want you to be able

to tell me how and why. And I think at 11, at 12, at 13, at 15, you don't know why. So our job as parents is to really assist in shaping that process. Would you say that's true? Oh, absolutely. You know, and there's so many different things that we can talk to them about over time. Like we don't want to lecture them and have them eye rolling the heck out of us. But, you know, like we could say, do you know that girls spend almost double the amount of time on their appearance that boys do? You know, and like, what does that mean? That means he is he has more time to practice his instrument or maybe it means he has more time to play video games.

But even that is is like hand eye hand-eye coordination is being developed. And so there's nothing wrong with focusing on your appearance, but also there is something wrong with thinking that that is your most important asset. And unfortunately, globally, that is what girls believe. And like, talk to me about the fucking pink tax, because I am blown away. I mean, I know this to be true. Tell me about the pink tax, because I don blown away. I mean, I know this to be true. Tell me about the pink tax, because I don't know if you people knew about this, listening to this. I think I read about this many times, but when I read some of your work, I was like,

are you fucking kidding? The exact same Gillette razor in a blue box is far less. You put that thing in a pink box and I'm paying five bucks more. Are you the exploitation of women around weddings and babies and all of these things. Tell me about that. Yeah. I mean, one of my favorite examples is the dry cleaner, right? Like men's shirts are on average bigger than women's shirts. And yet we charge more for the women's shirts, regardless of the material, right? They could both be cotton.

They could both be silk. And we charge more for women's. And so it's, I think, in part because women are willing to pay more for it because they've been taught their appearance is so important. You know, boys and men, like they get to sort of grab a shower, throw on clothes and get on with their life. And so they're like, I'm not going to pay $10 for one shirt. Like that just makes no sense. And you know, like, again, it's, there's not a lot of choice in it because it's happening. And I think over time, I think, you know, I was reading some of your work too. It's almost $300,000 more expensive to be a woman. Right. Just including the feminine products that are required.

You know, if you have a uterus, there's some things you got to consider. Those are taxed. Those are not seen as essential items. Are you fucking kidding me? What do you think I should do then while I'm on my period? Well, this is the best part. It's called a luxury tax, right? You are being charged for the luxury of having your period. Oh, thank you so much for this fucking benefit. I'm so grateful. Really? Brutal. And I think really it's so difficult. And I think about this as a parent right now, the Pew study that talked about 88% of parents would say, if I knew it was this hard, you know, when I look at that data and I, and I review your work, I think, oh my gosh, I'm, I'm screwing up my kids.

I, how do we ever survive in this? You know, these conscious, these unconscious biases are becoming conscious. And it makes me think at every turn, am I doing enough for my daughters, but am I doing enough for my sons to break those conversations? I mean, we play in a very traditional hockey team. We live in a small town. I hear boys don't cry all the time. I, I think, I think we say that. And like, I think, you know, one of the kids' grandfather said like, you know, my son has longer hair. You look like a girl. Like we, it's, it's at every turn. And so when I think about 88% of parents going, this is so difficult.

I don't know what the other like 12% were doing during this fucking research here, because I think maybe they misunderstood the question because it is so much harder than many of us anticipated in this quote modern world, because we're playing by a set of rules that was established by our parents where they lived in smaller houses. They had no access to social media. They had maybe one TV if you were in a privileged position. And now fast forward, just one generation, we now are attempting to regulate emotion, attempt to address these biases that are so fucking blatantly unbelievable. There's one term for mister. We got miss, mrs, miss. You got many options depending on who owns you. It's those things that we still perpetually use every single day. Thank God doctor has no gender associated with it. That's why I go by that all the time.

You just, anyway, the idea is so interesting to me. So as parents, what do we start to think about? What are some of the most important things as we make shifts? Because our kids are going to watch how we do it. Yeah. We're writing this script in the air. We're speaking about that, doing that in our own, in our, you and I were talking about that in our own careers, but how do we do this as parents now? What are some of the things that you sort of discovered in, in writing this? Well, one of the things is we want to raise our girls to have a healthy sense of entitlement. Yeah.

Right. Because entitlement generally is pejorative. We think it's, you know, we apply it to people who we think are asking too much. But over and over again, I see girls who don't aren't entitled enough. Right. And so particularly to respect to their voice and to money. Right. And so there are these ways that parents can really focus on those three things. I mean, and there's so much more, right. Because I can get into those, but like, you know, just, just notice when you're just more fragile, when you ask your son,

but not your daughter to help you bring in the groceries or to take out the trash, right. Like we need her to know that she is capable, um, that she's not a fragile flower. Oh, I love that. Because she's really not in most cases. Yeah. And I think, I think just friends, you know, as we're listening to this together, wherever you are today, I think that's the point, right? The fact that you're here listening to Joanne, the fact that, you know, hopefully you will dive into her words, her book, really thinking about this in a way that just brings it into our own consciousness means we will respond differently. You know, even after spending some, this time with Joanne's work this week, I mean,

I've talked to my husband differently about this. I've said to him, you just asked Asher to do this. What about Liv? And our daughter really gets upset about like, whenever you talk about lacrosse, you're always talking about Evan. Do you know I play lacrosse too. And I was like, you're right. And like, it is so unconscious. I know this shit. I have been, I'm very aware of it. And so there's no shame. There's no like, Oh my gosh, we're doing this wrong. No, no, no, no, no. This is, we're the first, this is the first season of really being clear that, huh, the way we've done things is not working anymore. It's not promoting the best out of the people that are going to take over the world who come after us. So our responsibility comes in, first of all, becoming aware and conscious of it, which is why we're here. And secondly,

while you did your, this beautiful piece and then act on it just in small ways, be very aware. Is it, would you say that's sort of your call to action here? Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And it's, you know, it reminds me of like boys interrupt girls and men interrupt, you know, basically girls and women are interrupted far more than boys and men. And so you watch that statistically speaking, that is happening in your house. And so it's such a great way to intervene. You know, like I have to say to him, I have to make sure my son doesn't dominate the conversation. And then I have to talk to my daughter about how it's okay to be assertive.

And, you know, some people will find that aggressive. They'll label it as aggressive when girls are assertive, but that doesn't mean you are. It just means you're trying to make your voice heard. The holidays are coming and nobody wants to deal with seasonal bugs making their way through the family. That's where Maple comes in. No more scrambling for open clinics during holiday festivities. One membership covers the whole family, making it a gift that keeps on giving this season. And with over a million five-star reviews, Canadians are loving it. Don't let sickness slow down your season.

Download the Maple app today. See a real doctor on your phone in minutes, 24-7. Get Maple. Get well. Sooner. is built to push you. We know how life goes. New father, new routines, new locations. What matters is that you have something there to adapt with you, whether you need a challenge or rest. And Peloton has everything you need, whenever you need it. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. And so I want to talk about this too, because I get in trouble all the time for swearing, right? I've heard a woman doesn't swear. Certainly a psychologist who's a female shouldn't swear. Talk to me a little bit about when we switch these roles, how not switch these, or when we evolve, when we think about these things differently,

how scary is that? What is the expected pushback? How difficult is it going to be for us to forage new roles as working women, as women with PhDs, as CEOs of our companies of trying to keep your home together? And still we're expected to do the vast majority of childcare housework show up at the PTA meetings. I don't want to miss a hockey game. I don't. But I love my work. So how are you finding women navigating that huge expectation as we evolve necessarily in this conversation in this world? Well, you know, one of the things that's happened is that the more progress women have made, the greater the expectations that have been put on them.

Like when women started flooding the workforce in the 80s at not necessarily only the low level paying jobs, suddenly we had like the good mother trope. Yeah. And you had to do all of these extra things that previous generations never did. And that's just continued. And that, you know, I think there's some study there. There's a study that I mentioned in the book about the more that we progress, the more we're expected to focus on beauty. And women and men both believe that. So if you're going to be successful, you better be fucking hot. Is this the point as I flip my hair forward? Okay. Got it. Yes, yes, yes. Oh my God. We can't do it all. We cannot do it all. But also like there was something you

said before that I think really ties into this, right? Your boys don't cry. And I forget what else you said. But in any case, it was like, anything feminine is denigrated, right? And, you know, it's just weak. And it's why there is sexism. It's why there's homophobia, because anything feminine is icky. And yet, if girls and women step outside of the feminine role, it blows people's mind. It's really hard for people to embrace progress and say, okay, maybe people aren't as binary as we think they are. Maybe they have multiple skills if they're given the chance. Yeah. And I think about that in my work with police officers. I think when I watch female police officers, they often really embrace the masculinity. And so there's this idea that the shoulders come up, butchiness comes into play, and we don't want to embrace the femininity,

the soft side, the emotional language that is necessary. And I speak so much these days about the necessity to have an emotional language. Women are historically good at that. That is our greatest superpower of all time. That needs to be at the head of successful organizations, companies, cultures. It's not just because we've waited for so long and it's finally time for equality. We will not only change the world right now, we have skills that can save it. And I think when we start talking about it in that terms, not just like we finally got a seat at the table, you're lucky that we've checked the boxes and got enough vaginas and particularly people of color and all the things around the table, because we want some voices to understand

diversity. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. How do we, and this is what I love about the empowerment piece of your work is that like you actually legitimately are overdue in being required to understand what this world needs right now. Yes. And I mean, that's why I tell parents like, talk about money, give your kids as much allowance, give your daughters as much allowance as your sons, because believe it or not, we do not. And we pay boys more for chores than we do for girls. Talk to your kids about, talk to your daughters about investing. Because A, it's good for them, and they need to be financially independent. Everybody should be able to be financially independent. But all the research shows it is better for the economy when women are involved in finances and the workforce. Okay, I got it.

It's better for everybody. You know, when things start to evolve and change, we often see people loving the good old days, wishing it could be back to the way it was because there is so much, I think, security and safety in predictability. were clear. There was very little freedom, but there was clarity. There is some regulation and clarity. And there is this movement that you've written about and I've started to understand called Trad Wives, a social media sort of evolvement around getting back to the traditional role of women and wives. Can you talk to me about, you know, why now? Why that? Why is that becoming something that women are really embracing and, and not women embracing, but there's certainly a small sector of people that are really bringing that to terms, right? Like let's, let's go back to the perfect, like cooking the perfect meal, getting in the perfect apron, being very subservient and making the

children perfect. And we're going to show everybody that everything's perfect. And so this is, I mean, if you want to follow this, I mean, you just Google trad wives. It's a thing. And I'm interested in your take on that. Yeah. Ballerina Farm is the biggest trad wife. Ballerina Farm? Ballerina Farm.

She was a ballerina who in her senior year at Juilliard dropped out to marry her husband. They're Mormon and they really espouse traditional gender roles. Yeah. But I mean, you know, she's not supposed to be making any money, but as a traditional wife, but she is making like millions off of this. But I think it's all, I think the business is under her husband's name. But anyway, why now? I think that is such a great question. And I think that is in part because being a woman, being a parent now is so hard, right? Women do far more inside the house than they did 60 years ago. Like, plus they're working outside the house. Plus, right. So, right. So, so I can understand that like, ah, really, maybe I could give up my job because there's tons of people like you and I,

we love our jobs, right. But, and it's still really, really hard. And sometimes it would be nice to just simplify, but then there's also a lot of people who don't love their jobs. And so there's this idea that like, wow, if I could just really focus on the home, not feel so split all the time, how lovely would that be? But it's also just BS, right? It's just bullshit because most families need two incomes to survive. And so I think like we need, we, we, our world, our, our policies need to evolve to include more equality in relationships where both partners can work, where both partners help with childcare. Yeah. And I can, I can already hear the feedback, right? Like, I really love my role as a stay-at-home

mom. I really like, listen, there's absolutely no judgment in this space. I, I feel like there's many successful people who feel completely and utterly fulfilled in creating, um, you know, whatever the, the, the trad wife conversation is about for me, why that's important to talk about is that it's really highlighting, I think in a very inauthentic way, what it looks like to have all your shit together and that how successful people can be just frolicking and baking buns all day. And I, I under, I want people to just hear that behind the scenes, that's not how it's going. So when we start to compare ourselves to that piece, being able to be financially stable and to be able to feel empowered as a woman sometimes gets really threatened if we're not authentic in the places where we show up. And social media is such a scary place for that because you get the highlight reel.

And when we further perpetuate this idea by really assigning traditional gender roles as a way of being like, this is so much easier. I am so much happier and better. Maybe you are. Fantastic. Let's be very critical of that when our babies are watching. And I just want to be clear if that is what, you know, like, let's be genuinely honest about the good stuff and the hard stuff in whatever this looks like, because I think it's so detrimental if we aren't. Absolutely. And like, yes, of course, if it's a choice and you want to stay home, like, first of all, let's not underestimate how hard that is. It is so hard to be a stay at home mother. I mean, it really is to be a stay at home parent. I think it's definitely harder than, you know, when my kids were little, it was definitely harder than leaving and going to my job. Yeah. But the point is, it needs to be able to be a true choice. Right? Not because we're saying that's not because that's not because we're, we're, we're hoisting or foisting gender roles on people. Yeah, this is what you were supposed to do. This was our agreement, remember? You were going to do

this. And when we sort of feel like we want more, need more, whatever that looks like, I think being very clear about that being okay is important. And I think, I mean, I guess my question, you know, most importantly is how do you think this unconscious bias that is becoming more conscious is perpetuating the loneliness epidemic? Do you think it's lonely to be a woman in this season than it may have been historically? And why might that be, if that's true? I think women are lonely. I mean, I think men are really lonely too. There's a real loneliness epidemic among boys and men and that's sort of the rise of incels. But women are really lonely in relationships, right? They've been brought up to believe that the needs and comforts of others are more important than their own needs and comforts.

And they get the message from a really young age that they're responsible for managing other people's feelings, for being nice. And so, you know, they grow up taking on the cognitive and emotional tasks that make lives and relationships run more smoothly because of the social consequences of refusing to do that work or doing it badly are often enormous. And so on the one hand, they're working their ass off to take care of all the details in the home. And on the other hand, they're working their ass off to take care of all the details in the home. And on the other hand, they don't feel like they have a partner in that. And they feel that stuff is also belittled, like it's expected, but at the same time, it's belittled. Yeah, isn't that so cute?

You've got such a nice job, Marty. We hear this all the time. You know, I got to say, it's like, oh, oh, Aaron's just really working hard. But you look at your little company. So cute. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I was just going to say, you know, like I have a story in the book, right?

The book kind of opens up or the chapter one is basically about Camilla and Drew. Right. And you really see how that mental load is such like a relationship and sex killer. And I tell the story of a party that they're throwing where Drew is frustrated with Camilla's attention to detail, right? Explaining that she spends too much time worrying about something that doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. But as we unpack it, we find out like he really cares about having a nice party, impressing his guests. But he's been so trained to not care about things like he actually cares about or to be too cool to put in the effort and makes it seem like Camilla's obsessive. And she's tired of him thinking that beautiful events and holidays and trips to the beach just magically happen.

Right. Yes. And then, I mean, and, and so, and she, she was a working mother herself and she wasn't always happy about having to tend to all the details. Right. But she, um, you know, and what's, so what was happening with them is what often happens in heterosexual relationships, that they have overlapping feelings that had gotten polarized. Right. Both Drew and Camilla were experiencing conflicting desires within themselves. They both wanted and didn't want to throw nice parties. They both wanted and didn't want to go search for the hats that would stop their kid's skin from burning. But Camilla's left with all the, she's left holding all the wanting and he's left holding the not wanting. And then how does that play out, right? As relationships evolve, how do we see that? Well, it's like she's the naggy, obsessive, annoying wife. And he's like the cool, like, it's all going to be fine.

Just go with the flow. And it's like, no, if you want to go out for dinner, you actually have to plan it. You have to make the reservations. You have to get the babysitter. You have to warn the kids that, you know, there's a million little details that need to happen. And so I guess. It can't be all the wife. For sure.

And so then my question is. She's drowning. All of these things really then make me wonder, you know, as the mother of two sons, as we are empowering women, how are we investing in changing the narrative to, with our boys? How, how do we do that? Yeah. I mean, I think a really big piece of this is educating boys, um, to, to understand, um, gender roles and how they don't just hurt girls, but they hurt boys because it's really limiting to a boy's identity too. They are not supposed to be expressive. They're not supposed to have really close friendships. They're not supposed to be vulnerable. And so they spent so much of what they care about has to go underground. And so I think, again, it's the long game. You're just sort of over time teaching them

that these things are silly. Like one of my greatest moments was when my kid turned to me when he was like three years old and was like, it's so silly that pink is a gender. I mean, pink is just a color. I was like, uh-huh. I am crushing it. Uh-huh. I love that because the highest rate of suicide, I mean, this is the data that always gets me. Why is it important to have conversations with your boys? Why is it important when I talk to, you know, hockey coaches or, you know, when I go back to the farm and we have these conversations, why is it important to stop those conversations and rethink them? I will tell you why highest rate of suicide in your country in mind, Joanne is middle-aged men. And it's because

I think without a doubt, you know, anxiety and depression will not kill you not talking about it might. And if we further perpetuate those ideas, because it feels better, we don't want people to think we're weird. If we're saying, you know, like, come here, tell me your feelings. Like, let's cry it out kind of thing, right? Oh my God, we're coddling. We're creating sissies and all these boys. I promise you, it will not only change their life, it will save it. And women will have to lead the charge.

Not because men are incompetent in this space. And this is very generally speaking, of course. But we are more skilled in this regard because we've done this our whole lives. So it's often that extra responsibility, unfortunately, I would say that comes onto the plate of women and, you know, in this modern world, as we talk about it, how do we navigate that? Um, how do you speak about that? You know, okay, if we're going to change the world, actually women and men have to do this together, but I'm going to guess, and maybe I'm wrong here, maybe I'm going to guess, women have to lead, because I think we can make the most impact with our kids. And so dads can be a big part of that.

I mean, they have to do their own work and their own learning. But, you know, we, like parents talk about implicit bias. We use emotion-focused words with girls much more than with boys. We use competition and achievement- related words with boys, but not girls. Right. And like, those are things that exist. Like boys have emotions, girls have achievement related needs. Right. Even we're talking about like the stay at home versus the like everybody, moms, like everybody needs their autonomy and everybody needs their emotional connection. And however that works out in your family is great, but everybody needs it.

And so why should men only have the autonomy, which then cuts them off from connection, right? And boy, and women only have the like family connection where, and the, you know, the social obligations and they, they make all this connection, but they don't get to experience the level of autonomy that they need. And we both, you know, and so there's, there's just a way in which we're all going to be happier when we start to embrace that there, there can be much more balance than there is. Oh my gosh. Dr. Finkelstein, that is, your work is so profoundly important because I think the call to the table right now is really not about being more divisive in this place. It's actually how do we make this place much healthier for our sons and our daughters, leading this conversation around the unconscious bias, around how we've just been so divisive historically for

many reasons that are understandable, but no longer acceptable. So I cannot wait for this book to come out. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for being here today. Thank you. It was such you so much for being here today. Thank you. It was such a pleasure to have this conversation. Yeah, I feel that way too. All right, everybody, take care of yourself. Take care of each other. And I hope you land back here if you're feeling a little lonely because this season is going to be fantastic. you