Unlonely with Dr. Jody Carrington - What is Toxic Productivity? - Israa Nasir

Episode Date: November 21, 2024

In a world obsessed with hustle, Israa Nasir invites us to hit pause. Drawing from her book Toxic Productivity, Israa breaks down the emotional toll of constant achievement and why rest isn’t just indulgent—it’s essential. From cultural roots shaping work ethics to the loneliness felt by marginalized communities, Israa and Jody peels back the layers of our productivity-obsessed society. Israa shares practical tips for navigating burnout, balancing ambition with well-being, and reclaiming identity in a social media-driven world. If you've ever wondered whether the grind is worth it, this episode might just be the permission slip you need to slow down.Find More Israa:WebsiteInstagramTiktokLinkedIn Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton.

Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. at the beginning of every episode there will always be time for an acknowledgement you know the more we do this people ask why do you have to do the acknowledgement and every episode. I got to tell you, I've never been more grateful for being able to raise my babies on a land where so much sacrifice was made. And I think what's really critical in this process is that the ask is just that we don't forget. So the importance of saying these words at the beginning of every episode will always be of utmost importance to me and this team. So everything that we created here today for you happened on Treaty 7 land, which is now known as the center part of the province of Alberta. It is home of the Blackfoot Confederacy, which is made up of the Siksika, the Kainai, the Pekinni, the Tatina First Nation, the Stony Nakota First Nation, and the Métis Nation Region

Three. Our job, our job as humans is to simply acknowledge each other. That's how we do better, be better, and stay connected to the good. Welcome back. Welcome in to the Unlonely Podcast. I have got an interview for you today. This is another one I got to do. We got to do this live in New York and I'm going to introduce you today to a badass. Her new book, Toxic Productivity, which just really, the whole concept took mine and Marty's breath away. And it releases November 19th. And this human, Isra Nazir, is a New York City-based psychotherapist, writer, and the founder of WellGuide, which is a digital community for mental health awareness. She blew me away with her ability. So she's born in Canada, raised in Saudi Arabia and Canada, now lives in New York, psychotherapist, has done so many things in her life that just, she's so articulate and so insightful and so willing to go into conversations around why so many of us sit in

this place of hyper optimization, where the hustle culture is just taking everything by storm. And her take is so profound around this idea that productivity is toxic. If you do not understand the importance of resting your body, it will be difficult to continue to do any kind of work. And I just, it's timely, it's brilliant. And, um, I cannot wait for this book. Um, I did get an early copy and I got to tell you, I was, I was super impressed by just how well written and incredibly insightful it is. So here's Isra. Enjoy it. Sink in. Learn. And I hope you'll love it as much as I did. Okay. Hello, everybody, my fellow humans. It's so great to have you back here. I, um, we're in New York taping this episode and I, when I get to, to interview a fellow therapist, there's always this angst that happens in my body because I'm

like, okay, just a second. Like, what do you know that I don't know? And what do I know that you don't know? And are we really going to agree? I have to tell you, Isra is brilliant. And I started watching, following her work. She's got a book that is due out November 19th called Toxic Productivity. And I have to tell you, it resonated so deep in everything that I think we're not addressing. I think we're disconnected in this world. I think we're lonely. I think that's the biggest issue. And we have been to our bones taught that hustle is the way that you are going to be successful, that you make your mark on this world. Do not slow down. This is the thing. So what is toxic productivity? You tell me that from the beginning, and then I want to know all about you. Absolutely. So toxic productivity is when three things come together. One is a desire to do more and be very outcome-oriented, right? The second piece is connecting your outcomes to how good you feel about yourself, how connected you feel to other people.

So leveraging your productivity as a way of connection. And the third thing is disregarding your wellness in the process. So these three things come together and we kind of get into this like chaotic environment internally. We become disconnected from ourselves. We feel lonely with other people. We don't really know what we're pursuing, why we're pursuing it, but we are pursuing it. Oh, relentlessly. Relentlessly. And we are ignoring the signs of our body that is saying, hey, you should rest, take a break. You might feel super tired all the time, emotional, irritable, but you're like, this is just a part of life. Of course, I'll sleep when I'm dead.

Yeah. How many times have I said that to myself Of course. I'll sleep when I'm dead. Yeah. How many times have I said that to myself? Yeah. I'll sleep when I'm dead. Huh? Because I'm always like, you can do more things. You've been given this beautiful, privileged life. Who are you to take a break? Yes.

Or, you know, people are like, you and Beyonce have the same 24 hours. So she can change the world. So can you? And I'm like, I don't have a staff. If I did, maybe don't have a staff. If I did, maybe. Oh my gosh, isn't that true? So how did this, okay, I love that.

When I read your, I got an early release copy of your book and I honestly, I think it is so well done. You have laid out the research so beautifully and really justified why and how we got here. And so I want people to know a little bit more about you. Sure. So tell me right now, you live in New York. I live in New York. Back it up for me.

How did we get this brilliance in this book? So my personal journey very quickly, my elevator pitch for third culture kids everywhere. So I've moved around a lot. And so I come from like an immigrant family. I myself am an immigrant two times over. So I was born in Pakistan, grew up in Saudi Arabia as an expat, then moved to Toronto and then moved to New York. And I moved to Toronto when I was 13. So, you know, our like when you grow up in an environment where your parents are effectively starting over in their 40s, there is this culture of you got to do, you got to make,

you just got to keep moving. Everybody has to do their part. And then I think just generally speaking, my parents have a very extremely strong work ethic. And because of their own personal background of, you know, what was going on in the world around them, geopolitically, when they were growing up, they also learned this message that if you are very productive, you can change your situation, you can get out of like a, like a bad or, you know, unhealthy, harmful, even if it's like a harmful political environment. If you're productive, if you work hard, and if you know, unhealthy, harmful, even if it's like a harmful political environment. If you're productive, if you work hard and if you grind, you can get yourself out of there. Okay.

And so they did. They were, you know, impacted by the war in Pakistan in the 70s when the country split into two and now it's Bangladesh. So they grew up in that war, right? So for them, it was like, you got to hustle and grind. We got to get out of here. here yeah and they got to Saudi Arabia and there it just settled for them that you gotta work hard you gotta work hard you gotta work hard and so very much a part of Saudi Arabian culture as well no I think it was just my parents brought their belief in their bones yes from Pakistan yeah do you think that is still a Pakistani in way that hustling working is that

deep in that in in the Pakistani culture as well? I definitely think that there is a lot of hunger and hustle there for sure. I did a I did a brief stint of social impact work there in 2015, 2016. And that was the first time I was living there with a friend. We were just trying to set up something, you know, tech-based. What? Yeah, yeah. That's another chapter of my life. I know.

There's so many. But, yeah, I did notice that there is a hunger to make something happen for yourself because so many people are under-resourced, right? Yes, yes. And that's why very commonly in the West you hear about this immigrant mindset, like immigrants are hard workers, because they are coming from a place of scarcity. They had to be. They had to be. You have to make four things out of the one thing you've been given.

And, you know, I had a very comfortable childhood, but my parents unknowingly modeled this behavior for me. Well-meaning parents. I have no complaints about my childhood. But I very quickly learned that you don't rest. You just work hard and it made them successful. So, you know, they, they wanted to pass that down to us. But I think when I moved to New York, it really amplified. I mean, you've been here for a couple of days. Yes. The city is absolutely overachievers united. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in all the beautiful ways to like, I get I get the benefits. And, you know, even as you say, you know, my parents were overachievers

or, you know, that this this concept, it worked for them. Right. And I think that's that's true about New York Etonians is really it's this idea, too. I think the question is, and to your point coming up, I'm sure is is what is the cost to that? Yeah, because it's this idea too. I think the question is, and to your point coming up, I'm sure is, is what is the cost to that? Because it's not even a question whether we can work hard enough. Like that is true in many of our abilities, right? It's not that we don't want to, or we can't, we don't, you know, whatever. But the question is, to what end? Exactly. And when do you stop to listen to the signals that things are not working out? Okay.

And so for me, as I was navigating that, that environment, so you know, when we become adults, you're a therapist, too. So you know, this, eventually, we are accountable to make the changes in our life. We inherit things from our family. And then it's up to us to parse through it and be like, this is helpful, this is not. And that's just a part of growth. And so when I was really struggling about a couple of years ago, I started wondering about, you know, purpose and meaning. I was feeling really burnt out. I was working a lot, but I was also very toxically productive in my social life. We were going out seven nights a week. I mean, there were some Saturdays you were going off for 16 hours, like brunch,

lunch, dinner, afternoon things, party, late night. And then like, it was just 16 hour days because it was this deep desire to optimize my time here, to make the most of it, to do all of the things in every arena, plays, theater, parties, DJs, like food, I just had to do it all. And I was working like that as well. So I just kind of became interested in purpose and existentialism. So I started reading on that. And somehow that led me to human behavior research. And that led me to, you know, how we connect achievement to self worth. And then that's kind of like the genesis of me trying to understand myself. Okay. And then I started doing workshops on it. And people really resonated with the topic. Yeah. And then

then came a message from my lovely publishers on Instagram and said, hey, we love this. Have you ever thought about writing a book? And now here we are. And now here we are. Two years later. Oh, my gosh. So if I back you up, we were at one point. So you leave Toronto.

Yeah. How old were you when you came here? 30. So did you get your education in Toronto? Were you? Yeah. So I got my undergrad in Toronto. OK. Did you get your education in Toronto? Were you? Yeah. So I got my undergrad in Toronto. Okay.

But I got my master's here in my mid-20s. And then I left. And I practiced in Toronto for five years. No way. Then I came back. Yeah. And then you came back. And tell me about, you know, because I think what I really love the most is this concept

that you've created really around the well guide. And how that fits into, you know, the way that you've evolved in your practice? Because you practiced initially in Toronto. What was the focus? In the beginning, I was just trying to figure out what I did enjoy working with. So I did a whole host of things. I worked at a shelter for women who are fleeing violence in Hamilton. Then I worked at the Canadian Mental Health Association for many years in community mental health, a little bit of hospital, and then I did private practice. And then I just became really interested in meaning making, like identity formation,

why we do the things we do. And because I have had a lot of transitions in life just by virtue of, you know, my childhood, I am very much interested in supporting people navigating transition. Okay. So when I do practice, I work with people who are trying to manage a change in life. So they've moved. They just had a divorce. They just had a baby. They just got married.

You know, that kind of life transitions, transitioning life stage. It's a really big interest of mine. So but I just want to say I am not currently practicing. Oh, you're not? Yeah. Okay. And so what's what's the focus? I work in digital health. So I do I again, like one more story about my life. I became really interested in using technology to support mental health, like service and outcomes. And so I transitioned in 2016 in clinical operations and clinical strategy. So I currently am working with Anise Health, which is a mental health tech platform for Asian American diaspora. Stop. So fun. So what do you, what is that about? What is the vision for Anise or for me? Well, let's start with Anise. Yeah, of course. Um, so Anise's vision, which I, I very much love is they did, the founders did a

lot of research around ethnic matching because there's a problem in the United States, over 80% of clinicians are white Americans, and the 20 are the rest, including biracial people. And so this idea that the therapist has to match the ethnicity of the client has some merit, but it's not going to help us solve the problem. Right. So they have been building an entire training on clinicians to become culturally competent and sensitive and understand tools and assessments that are very specific to the Asian American diaspora. Wow. So when you come on, you get trained and you don't have to be an Asian therapist to be a good therapist. Right. So they do this training for their clinicians and it's a blended model of therapy and coaching for the clients. OK.

Because research has shown that Asian-Americans respond a little better to more action oriented, you know, changes and interventions after you get into insight building. So you have to kind of do those two things in parallel. So you've got the therapist, a coach, and a person, and you're all working together. Wow. So it's very cool. It sounds incredibly cool. And I think your background as an immigrant, as you said, the multiple transitions, oftentimes I think, particularly for, the multiple transitions, oftentimes, I think,

particularly for those of us in privileged positions, really cannot comprehend the loneliness that it is to just be so unseen 20% of the population trying to, you know, trying to find 20% of therapists out there in this world that, you know, trying to make sense of hard things. Talk to me about what you, you know, you've seen around what it means to be marginalized in any capacity and how lonely that is. That is a transformative experience for people. And I don't think that we even understand ourselves the impact that has until you're much older and you reflect back on your life because it starts very young. So you have these, like I was an immigrant child and I can't tell you how challenging the first three months were for me. And I spoke the language, right? I was completely fluent in English. And even that, even then, it was so challenging for me to feel connected.

And so I think as you navigate, you know, as a marginalized identity, you know, person, yeah, you start to split off parts of yourself internally, right? And so there's a lot of like, and not splitting in like the borderline way but like like just like you kind of start boxing pieces of your identity so where's where it's acceptable to show up in a certain way you sort of have to meld just like words for this right like where it's like switching is one word for it thank you um or even just like not agreeing with certain things in front of certain people agreeing with other things in front of certain people, agreeing with other things in front of other people. Like you're really like water, right? You're just kind of fluid and just

trying to stay below the line. Is this true? Yes. Yeah. And the work that the work that I like doing is helping people integrate those boxes because you can get there, you can do that and you can be a very multifaceted person. Do you think people are even aware sometimes that they're doing that? You know, like, I think about the acknowledgement piece in this work of like, just even giving somebody permission to say, I see the full time job it is being a minority. Right? Yeah. Acknowledging that that is a piece is that I mean, do you find? I think that people are not aware of the fact that they're doing it, but people are certainly aware of the emotional impact it has. So people can name the guilt. People can name the disconnection. People can name the loneliness.

Like I feel so disconnected from my friends because I can never take them home because my parents are, you know, a different culture and the home looks different. So people can name the impact it has. And that's kind of where you begin. And I think, you know, there's a lot of comparison that happens in this, you know, process. You compare yourself to the dominant culture group. You compare your parents to theirs. You compare your cultural practices to the others. And so you can feel very, very lonely in that people might not understand me. Yeah. Yeah. And how, what is the role of social media, you know, in the last decade, right? How has that contributed to this process? So I think overall, social media has contributed negatively to loneliness in that I think it

has increased our loneliness because we have developed these parasocial relationships that are one way, but we're not actually having these nourishing exchanges. So you might like a friend's photo, they might like your photo. And now you've kind of been in each other's lives in this way. But you don't have that exchange, that real connection. Do you really like it or are you just liking it so everybody sees that you like it? Or you feel obligated. The stories in our heads are so powerful. Yeah. And people do watch that stuff. I know people who look at who's liked their stuff or who's watched their stories. And, you know, there is a lot of surveillance. And because there's surveillance,

there is performance. And so in that way, social media has been kind of like an accelerator to loneliness, even though it was meant to do the opposite. But I will say, I think for the minoritized communities, social media has been very powerful in giving them a stage, a voice, a platform. And I've seen all of these creators, like filmmakers, indie filmmakers, short form filmmakers, put their cultural stuff out there in this radical way that me as a millennial would have never done 15 years ago. And then you find your community. And so I'm seeing this like burgeoning kind of like community building happening in social media that is very much diaspora, like South Asians or East Africans or West African, right? Like people are finding these creators and it's,

it's building a really nice community. Finding community. And I, I never thought about this until you started saying it, but I think the other thing that's interesting to me is that I hope that by providing platforms for voices that have not had a space before, that it's more easily consumable. So as a very privileged human, deeply, I talk about this all the time, how like you can't address what you don't acknowledge. There's deep racism in my bones. I didn't see a person of color until I was in grade three. Wow. No reflection on that. Yeah. No understanding about what that might be like because I didn't have a person of color until I was in grade three. Wow. No reflection on that. Yeah. No understanding about what that might be like because I didn't have to. That's the

definition of privilege. And as I grew up and raised my babies, this is my biggest hope, right, is that they will approach this life in a completely different way. And I I think often about this idea of like the exposure is necessary, but learning it and unlearning it is so fucking scary. Like, Ooh, fucking scary. This is such a privileged thing to say, but I, the, the availability that I have to people who can then pro provide content that I can learn like this online. Yeah. And, and, you know, like there's so many platforms that I follow that are like yours included, check your privilege. All of these sort of ideas about like, oh, fuck, I never thought about it like that.

Oh, gosh. Yeah. Like, I mean, and truly like I mean, again, in your book, it's this idea of like, let's think about some things the way that we where are the messages coming from? Yeah. Not only how we are productive. Who are we? Are we living up to our parents' ideal? Yes. Are we really trying to become the person that we thought we were supposed to be? Because culturally this has been passed down in our bones. What about

you as a person who has always believed this to be true? You're better than other people. What is, what are those thinking that sort of affects the way that you operate? Yeah. How critical is that? I guess like, you know, when we talk about the role of social media in this space, you know, it can help not necessarily just hinder it. Yeah, I would I would agree with that. I think social media has been able to foster dialogue in a way that we weren't able to have before. Of course, I think it is a place where sometimes just it's like a cesspool of hatred. And I'm sure you've received it. I certainly have over the most banal things where I'm just like. That's not what I meant. That's not what I meant.

Not even. I was holding a milk carton in one of my videos and people came for me because I was supporting Big Dairy. And I'm one of the few adults I know who still drinks dairy milk. And I'm sorry to say this on this. Oh, my gosh. I don't know if this is controversial, but but I do. But people people came at me for that. And they didn't even care that the video was about like emotional growth. Because I'm just making a coffee, right? As I'm

saying stuff. But yeah, so people can, of course, like social media can have like a huge, like negative impact. But it does have some positives in helping people get educated. However, you have to make sure who you're getting that education from. That is a really important thing. Make sure you check people's credentials. Make sure you kind of go over their 10, 15 previous posts. You can use ChatGPT now and you can just put their thing in there, their social handles in there and just say, hey, you know, is this person off center ever or anything like that, that you're looking to check for. But I think that's really important. Oh, man. Yeah. Hey, everyone. We all know how draining cold and flu season can be.

Waiting rooms, missed appointments, and that worry about whether a fever is something serious. But there is a better way. Maple gives you access to Canadian doctors and nurse practitioners in minutes, right from your phone. Get the medical care you need, including prescriptions when appropriate, 24-7 without leaving home. One membership covers your whole family so you can add all your dependents to your account. And with over a million five-star reviews, you're in good hands. Download the Maple app today. See a real doctor on your phone in minutes, 24-7. Get Maple. Get well. Sooner. If you're looking for flexible workouts, Peloton's got you covered. Summer runs or playoff season meditations, whatever your vibe, Peloton has thousands of classes built to push you. We know how life goes. New father, new routines, new locations. What matters is that you have something there to adapt with you,

whether you need a challenge or rest. And Peloton has everything you need, whenever you need it. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. I, you know, your book, I love this line. Productivity is not a time management issue. It's an emotions management issue. Can you tell me more about that? I think that's brilliant.

Thank you. Um, it is one of the things I genuinely do feel really proud of. If I can say that here, because I think I needed to learn, like it came to me in this like, I was just like not in a great place with my relationship with productivity and my outcomes. And I tend to be really hard on myself still for not meeting unrealistic expectations. But now I'm in a place where I can at least name them and say, okay, this is unrealistic, Isra. However, this came out of some of my own journaling where I genuinely believe that a lot of times we are pursuing productivity at an unhealthy level because we're looking to cope with negative emotions or, you know, some people don't like that phrase, so unhealthy emotions. And so productivity on its

own is not a bad thing. And I really want people to understand that. Right. Because as you're saying this, I was like, okay, so then how am I balancing this as a woman? Because I want to be unapologetically myself. I want to be successful. I want a New York Times bestseller. I want to be doing all these things. Right. And so like, but fingers crossed for you as well. Yes. There's many options. What is that line, right? Of like, you know, wanting to be particularly a woman in this space. Like, don't fucking tell me not to. You know, like, so, yes.

So carry on. Absolutely. So I came up, came of age in the girl boss era. Right. So my foundation for my parents is ready for that message, for it to take root. And then the girl boss era definitely amplified a lot for me about what it means to be a woman. A woman has to only be one way now, which is ultra successful, always busy, her hair is always perfect, right? Like I just had this very narrow definition of what it means to be a successful woman, which in itself is a very unhealthy way of looking at yourself because you're not allowing yourself nuance. You're not allowing yourself growth. Yeah. Right. But to

address what you were saying, when I think of the term toxic, I think of something that was good has now become bad, right? So something that is generally helpful, but at a certain degree becomes unhelpful. So to me, productivity kind of exists on a spectrum. And so you've got healthy productivity. And there you put reasonable goals, you make reasonable plans, you bake in rest, you expand the definition of what achievement and outcome is to include other things that are not just societal markers. And then you have healthy productivity that's sustainable, right? But unhealthy productivity, which is toxic productivity, does not have regard for your wellness. It does not care that your relationships are suffering. It is a win at all costs mindset. But it also comes with once you win, you're not happy because you want the other

thing. You're kind of like addicted to the rush of striving. And my personal experience, the way it manifests for me is if I achieve something, that means it must have been easy. Yes. So I didn't work hard enough. I have to find something else to do. Wow. Right? Yeah.

Changing goalposts constantly. Never happy. Changing goalposts. And so that makes it unhealthy. Like I want people to be ambitious. Yeah. And I even say it in the book. Like this is not an anti-productivity book.

If that's what you're looking for, there's actually two recommendations in there that people can go and read. Because there is space for that. And we need that literature out there. But we also need literature that redefines productivity to expand its definition. And give people that space to be human and make mistakes and rest and take breaks, pause on projects, say no to stuff, all of that needs to fall under the broader realm of I'm still being productive. Okay. Because I think, you know, to your point, I think that we've never been in such a noisy world. We do not have a script for rest. It was built into our cultures. And I know

culturally, this is different probably across cultures. But there, there tended to be a sacred day in most cultures, right? Saturday, Sunday, whatever the Sabbath in whatever, you know, nobody could get us after five o'clock. If we, if we were in our community doing laundry, if we were in our community, serving our people, teaching, working, doing whatever, we would come home and nobody could get us. So there is the sense, even one generation ago, I think about my father, you know, he would come through the door at 5 o'clock, nobody could get him. Right?

Some days he would work later, whatever, but his employer, his employee, his patients, nobody could get him. So it was a sanctity. Yeah. Whatever that looked like in the relationship system, you know, sanctity or not, it was a safe place for many people. And now I think in one generation, right? Just one generation, we all wake up to our phones. And before we even pee, we want to get ahead of the game. And I mean, I like, listen, this is guilty as charged in this moment because I'm like, I just want to check the email. game yeah right and i i mean i like listen this is guilty as

charged in this moment because i'm like i just want to check the email which is there will be nothing there that is going to lower my cortisol generally speaking okay so even before i pee i'm like oh for fuck's sake oh yeah you know and so then i jump onto social media yeah just you know just to sort of like as a little treat before i pee. Yeah. And I'm like, holy fuck, she's drinking cortisol. Well, cortisol. What's the other C word? Collagen. Yeah.

You know, she's already worked out. He's doing it like, so we are full before we even start our days. Yeah. And then we wear watches that constantly let us know how we're producing. We get the notifications on our email. We don't want to miss anything. And then we want to get really good and listen to a podcast on the way to work, you know, cause I just like, I mean, I'm driving. Why would I not take in more information and then meetings and whatever the whole day. And then we come home and we're supposed to sink into our

marriages, frolic with our children and we're done. We're not built for this much noise. No, no. And when you're sinking into your marriages and frolicking with your children, one eye and half of your brain is on your phone. It doesn't matter what your profession is. You could be a dentist and you're still looking at your email. You're, I know a lot of dentists who are on social media now, right? So you're checking that and it doesn't matter what your profession is. Or you don't even need a profession. You don't even need a profession.

You're right. The idea is, you know, like my volunteer organization, I had my kids in this hockey. Like I get constantly, I mean, we have three children. Everybody's in a different sport.

Yeah. And so they're all, of course I want them to be engaged in activities and whatever, but everybody's got their own thing. So then this mom is saying like, we need tie dye shirts for this. And this mom saying this, and then they're like, and I like all the time they all have access. And you know, who else has access to me all the time? My parents. Yes. Yeah. I am not built for that. You know? And again, I love it,

but you know, I'm, I'm here trying to sink in 150,000% for you. It's so interesting because Marty and Shane and both took my phone and my watch oh for today yeah and lately when i've been doing therapy i never started started doing this till about six months ago i will leave my phone and my watch outside oh to just really be out of it yeah because you know i cannot help myself yeah because i get the buzz and i want to make sure it's not my kids so i no, but I'm looking at my watch. That is the most disrespectful fucking thing that can ever happen on the planet. I don't mean to do that to you because I can explain to you that actually my kids are home alone and I want to make sure they're okay. So that's my responsibility as a care provider to make sure that my kids are

going to be okay. Yeah. Or to at least hold that 45 minutesminute sacred so that, like, somebody's got to be able to look after them while I'm in there, if that's possible. Yeah. Right? Yeah. I'm fascinated by our ability to care for and stay connected to people has never been more compromised because the opportunities to be so productive are so sexy.

Yeah. They are marketed really, really well. Right. And with the rise of this instant gratification culture, we get the good feeling right away. Yes. It's that dopamine rush, right? Yes, absolutely.

So coming back to one generation ago, like if my dad came home from work, he literally just like yours, wasn't doing anything else after, whatever report feedback came through, whatever feedback came from a meeting, he will find that out the next day. Right. But I know that, you know, if I had just gave a presentation, let's say, right. And let's say my boss wanted to give me feedback on it. And I get an email because my boss is working late at

seven. I'm going to open that at 7 p.m., right? I'm going to immediately find out. Even if I'm like, I am setting boundaries. I am good at this. I think what we really underestimate is the human need to know. Right? Yes. Like, we think kids are going to be good at this.

I often say this. Like, phones in bedrooms, nothing good happens on your phone in the dark. Yeah. Particularly if you have a tinier prefrontal cortex, right? I can't stop watching a show. and say this like phones in bedrooms any nothing good happens on your phone in the dark yeah particularly if you have a tinier prefrontal cortex right i can't stop watching a show yeah i'm deep into whatever it is and i know i should rest at 11 30 at night and there it is three o'clock in the morning because i just have to see if bosh lived i just need to know i'm so committed to this police officer and his marriage that i really need to stay up to see if he's going to be okay. Yeah.

And, you know, I'm actually reading some new research about toddlers having, like, addiction behavior because of tablets. And this is no shade to parents who are struggling through parenting because our society has not made it easy for parents to parent. Right? They're trying to get rid of summer vacation here because camp is too expensive. I don't know if you've heard that. Yeah, and I'm like, my friend was telling me that they're planning to break it up into different smaller chunks so it's manageable for parents. And I was like, what if we made camp more accessible instead?

What if we gave parents some time off instead? Like, what if we reworked our work culture instead of taking away summer break? That's horrifying. But anyway, I think what you described right now is urgency culture. So we operate in a false sense of urgency always. And that feeds into this mindset of I can do more. Of course I can do more. It's just like a little thing on the side of the table. I'm sitting here. Just two seconds. Right. I just do more. Of course I can do more. I'm just, it's just like a little thing on the side of the table. I'm sitting here just two seconds. Right. I just did it. And so there's this false sense

of urgency that we are operating under. And that really keeps us on edge physically. And that jittery, anxious, nervous system dysregulation is constantly in our brain kind of deciphered as you got to get moving. Obviously you have to do something. There's danger. There's something. Yeah. Yeah. You got to do something. That's what's going to alleviate this. And so you're like, okay, fine. I'll just write another chapter or I'll do whatever, or, you know, I'll hand make the Christmas tree this year for some reason. Yeah. So how does this then bleed into, and I think understandably, this culture burnout? We've seen unprecedented across every institution and organization, unprecedented rates

of this thing we're calling burnout. Do you see a direct link between toxic productivity and burnout? I view toxic productivity as like a cluster of behaviors that we do to cope with negative feelings, right? And I see that cluster of behaviors being the vehicle through which we get to burnout city. So you're on this treadmill, or you know, I think in the book, maybe I call it the productivity paradox. So you're on this thing, and you're constantly on it, on it, on it, and that will take you to a state of burnout. And we can live in chronic low-level burnout for years. Right? Years. Yeah. You'll be like, oh, I'm a little tired. I'm kind of snappy with my kids. My hair is kind of falling. Just the perils of modern life. And you kind of just keep going. Everybody else is doing it.

Yeah. Everyone else is doing it. Yeah, everyone else is doing it. And I don't have a lot of other options. I think that's the thing I really want people to reflect on is when you feel like you don't have options, then try to find options that fit in your life. Because we look for options and they are predefined in a very specific way. So if you meditate, you must meditate for 60 minutes and it needs to be in a cute place in your house with a tree and a candle and a meditation cushion. And now you need the Marmara like mats for acupuncture. You don't need any of that. So you have to redefine for yourself what it looks like in my life and find those options. Because ultimately, it's like a huge disservice to yourself. Yeah. And so I think in the first few pages of your book, you write the antidote to toxic productivity is not the absence of

productivity. Instead, I'm calling for a radical reimagining of what productivity means. To be productive is to put your goals and habits in service of your emotional and personal growth, not in service of a checklist that is rooted in comparison, shame, or perfectionism. Brilliant. Thank you. Can you expand on that? Yeah. I mean, first of all, I haven't read my book in a long time. You're like, did I say that? Damn. I'm like, damn, who is this girl?

No, I'm just kidding. Yes. So I think one of the big pillars of toxic productivity for me, and, you know, the research does support this, is that we are pursuing goals because we think we have to. And that adds to the feeling of autopilot, dissatisfaction, feeling disconnected. So what are you pursuing and why? And in the book, there's a couple of case vignettes that elaborate what that can look like in real life. So chasing a relationship status because all of your other friends have partners, right? Needing your kids to be an XYZ

thing five days a week while you also volunteer and your family to look a very specific way. But really like to what end, to what purpose? And so to me, I feel like many of us are chasing goals that we have just been told we have to without questioning it. I mean, in my peer cohort, I hear a lot of people just working their butts off so they can afford to buy a place. Right. And I often ask, I'm like, why do you need to buy a place? Like, what's the rush here? And financially, in some cities, it actually makes more sense to rent over the long term in a life, right? And so it's like you're putting this undue pressure on yourself that you've adopted.

These are inherited checklist markers for success. And I think in trying to dispel this or dismantle it, we have to really realize what it is that we want out of our lives. Okay. And move at our timeline. Yeah. Just because your friends are all married at 28, it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you if you're not married at 32. But we think there, we think that, right? We're like, ah, I'm not good enough because everyone else is in a relationship and I'm not, or I'm not good enough because they have a house like this and I don't, and I'm not good enough because they got a promotion and I didn't, their salary is this and mine isn't. We just make it about ourselves instead of about things we do. Right. So questioning that

sort of internal state, that's where it's got to start. It's right in there. And I, I, you know, this leads me to sort of like this mindset of hyper optimization. Yeah. And you, you write about it. It's a mindset that we get into the, where we get obsessed with hyper optimization, trying to make the most out of every waking hour by working toward outcomes, achievement and productivity. Even the word makes me tired. Right. But it's like, I, I so get it right. Like I often think about like, it was never good enough just to get a master's. I needed to get a PhD and then I needed to learn the guitar at the same time. And then I was going to like do this and do this and do this and do this. And like,

it just never, ever ended. And I, the, the switch to sort of understand has been only recent for me that if I'm not okay, the people I serve don't stand a chance. Yeah. Right. Because especially when you have resources and you're smart and you're comparing yourself to everybody else, which we can do instantly now, like no other time in history. Um, it's ripe for this sense of hyper-optimization. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think our technology really supports that mindset. So you can measure everything in your body real time. You can buy mattress covers that measure your basal body temperature overnight, how much you move, and that's connected to your phone. And it's like this really interesting contraption that you put on top of your mattress under your sheet. But like,

I'm not saying that that's a bad thing. But what happens is I think with that data is the question. Yeah. And also like our the way our mind works is if you give us something to measure, we will measure it. That's why gamification works. But we will also compare. Right. That is like the just just the way the logic of the mind is. If I'm going to measure this, then I'm going to compare to see with my peers, right? And that is an evolutionary mechanism that tells me that I'm safe with the broader group. So I'm not on my own. But again, our mind wasn't designed to take this much information and compare comparison points. And so hyperization is a very unrealistic expectation on the human self because you can truly optimize to the fullest machines. You can't do that for your body because, you know, a woman goes through a menstrual cycle, like 1,400 different things are happening each week.

You can't optimize for a regular routine. You just can't do it, right? Even for anybody, any human person that has hormones in their body, you can't optimize. You just can't. Any single human. Yeah. So what is the, what are, you know, as you were writing this, what are the places where you landed in terms of what do we need to know the most right now? If we find ourselves in this state of many of us, I'm sure we'll listening of toxic productivity, what are some of the first strategies? What are some of the most important things we need to know to sort of slow that down? So, you know, my claim is, or I shouldn't say claim, my thesis is that productivity, like toxic productivity is an outcome of emotions management,

right? So emotions are difficult to access for a lot of people. And so my lowest hanging fruit, if you will, for somebody who wants to make a change is definitely start with a very tangible behavioral changes that you can make in your life that can free up some time for you to access reflection and then get into the emotion of, do I do this out of shame or guilt or perfectionism, like that kind of stuff. Because that can be hard for people. And I want to be mindful of that. And so there are some very tactical techniques that I really love that have given me some breathing space. Under committing is a big one for me because overcommitting is like literally my middle name. So undercommitting, I mean, I call it the Chanel rule because so Coco Chanel has this.

Allegedly, she said that when you accessorize and you're leaving for a party, as soon as you get to the door to leave, take off one accessory. Because we tend to over accessorize when we're getting ready. So this is a very famous thing that Coco Chanel said. And so for me, it's like, okay, when you're thinking about committing to stuff, just commit to one less thing. And it gives you some buffer. If you think that something takes you half an hour to do, schedule 40 minutes instead. Because what we end up doing,

if you're in the toxic productivity mindset, if something takes you 30 minutes, you will schedule 25. Oh, yeah. You're like, Oh, I can do it. I can do it. I mean, that's where everybody else would take them 30. But like, yeah, clearly, I'm gonna be able to get there in 20. Exactly. I'll do it. I'll do in 20. I'll do it in 25. So give yourself 35 minutes to do it or 40 minutes to do it. And so in that way, you're freeing up some space, you know, so'll do it in 25. So give yourself 35 minutes to do it or 40 minutes to do it. And so in that way, you're freeing up some space, you know, so you're not always on and that will leave you with your emotions and then you have to address them. Nice. Oh my God. I love this. When somebody cancels in my day or something happens, I am like a bit of a fish out of water.

I'm like, now what the fuck do I do? Yeah. Yeah. You know, so this is so true, right? How are we building in the quiet, the stillness as scary as it will be? Yeah. Okay. And I think, you know, stillness can be very scary for people. So I always encourage people to have like a note in their app with a list of things they can kind of engage with if emotional reflection is new for you. Okay. So maybe have like a few websites whose prompts you really like for journaling. Maybe have like a few authors you follow on Instagram who share quotes or something that can get you thinking. And like that in that way, you're not at a loss when you do have the time if you want to look deeper into what's driving your behavior okay um i think audits are really helpful like i love doing audits

um like boundary audits and energy audits and all those things but an audit about how you're spending your time and whether you need to do this thing anymore. So that's something I do a lot because I take on a lot of stuff and then I'm like, did I really need to do that? Yeah. Right. So preemptively auditing yourself is really helpful. And so like I would say if I were to do that, you know, like just taking a look at the last week, the last month about where I'm spending my time, who I'm spending my time with, who in whose presence do I feel more calmer and just really being very clear at that. You don't even have to make a change. Yeah. That knowledge becomes powerful for you. Absolutely. Okay. Yeah. Because that knowledge gives you an insight into your patterns and our patterns are what define how we feel. Yes. Yes. And yes, you know, unlearning stuff is a big ask,

but changing patterns is a little easier because it's so tangible. Right? You can measure it. You can put a little tick next to it to be like, okay, I did it. And yes, you're kind of utilizing that same mechanism, but to make yourself actually healthier. Okay. Sorry.

I love it. I know. Sorry, microphone. Sorry. Grading it. I know. Sorry, microphone. Sorry. Grading you. Okay. You are, that is so brilliant. I just, I have one more question about, okay, so the book comes out November.

Yes. I think I said that. November 19th. Yeah. And what else is happening for you? What's next? I mean, you're going to promote the book. Like, you know, for the, I mean, the company that you're working for, for sure. Well, guide, what's your dreams? Like, where, where are you taking this massive message?

Yes. So, you know, a lot of the things, most of the things that I've done in my career, after I really understood my place in the mental health world, the thread that binds all the different things I do is making sure that people have education around human behavior and patterns. So whether it's the book, the Instagram, the speaking, the work, right, even therapy, it's just all about disseminating information. And I think I would certainly continue that. I don't know what shape it will take yet. Yeah. But that's always the exciting point for me in life. As somebody who like helps people navigate transitions. I am personally a really big fan of transitions in

my life. Because it's opportunity and possibility. Right. And so yeah, I will certainly continue talking about this that I will never get tired of. Yeah. But I don't know the shape it will take. I know some people are very interested in like a workbook workbook. So the book itself has exercises you can do, but it's very narrative. It's like baked in. I've had some people ask for like a legitimate workbook. So that could be something I do. But yeah, I think I'm just going to continue spreading the message. I love that. Because, you know, as therapists, what we want is for people to become well enough to manage their symptoms on their own, right?

Like that's the goal. Yeah. We're working, we're working, we're working. And the first step to doing that is self-awareness. And you don't have to be in therapy for self-awareness. So my hope is that I can kind of help people access a little bit more self-awareness. Yeah, I love that. And you make yourself so accessible on your platforms, your social media platforms.

I think that what you've built out with WellGuide is so interesting. You can connect to you so easily. This book makes, I think, these conversations that are so overdue just so necessary. Yeah, Thank you. So thank you for taking your time here in this little city called New York that you would come all this way and sit and chat to us about this. I'm going to put all of the information about the book, how to preorder all the things in the show notes.

You're a gem. I cannot wait to see what you do next. Thank you. It was an honor. Yeah. No, this was a really great conversation. You asked some really interesting you do next. Thank you. It was an honor. Yeah, no, this was a really great conversation. You asked some really interesting questions. Aw, thank you.

I enjoyed telling you all of these things about me. Oh, I wish we had more time, but I really loved all of that. So thank you, thank you, thank you. And, you know, to everybody listening, there's so much important work in this book, in these conversations. And, yeah, I'm just so glad you're here. I'm really, really glad you're here in this very overwhelming, busy time. And I think this message is so important. You know, it's really about how we emotionally manage the things that are just coming at us constantly, uh, that matter way more than really what is actually

happening. So I hope you, um, tuck that into your heart and away you go. And then I hope that I see you or hear you or feel you here again this time next episode. The Unlonely Podcast is produced by three incredible humans, Brian Seaver, Taylor McGillivray, and Jeremy Saunders, all of Snack Lab Productions. Our executive producer, my favorite human on this planet, is Marty Piller. Soundtracks were created by Donovan Morgan,

Unlonely branded artwork created by Elliot Cuss, our big PR shooters are Des Veneau and Barry Cohen. Our digital marketing manager is the amazing Shaina Hadden. Our 007 secret agent from the Talent Bureau is Jeff Lowness.

And emotional support is provided by Asher Grant, Evan Grant, and Olivia Grant. Go live. I am a registered clinical psychologist in Alberta, Canada. The content created and produced in this show is not intended as specific therapeutic advice. The intention of this podcast is to provide information, resources, education, and the one thing I think we all need the most, a safe place to land in this lonely world. We're all so glad you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you.

From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push. Find your

power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca.