Unlonely with Dr. Jody Carrington - When is Enough… Enough? - Elizabeth Husserl

Episode Date: March 13, 2025

Talking about money is one of the loneliest conversations out there. But what if it didn’t have to be? This week on the podcast, I sat down with the brilliant Elizabeth Husserl, author of The Power of Enough, to unpack our emotional relationships with money. We dove into scarcity, security, success, and how money shapes our connections—with our partners, our families, and even ourselves. Money isn’t just numbers on a spreadsheet. It’s history, identity, and sometimes a damn white elephant in the room. But when we actually turn towards it, get curious, and start asking the real questions, we can change the game. You don’t want to miss this one.Follow Elizabeth:https://www.linkedin.com/in/elizabethhusserl/https://elizabethhusserl.com/https://www.instagram.com/elizabethhusserl/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Let's talk Audible. This new year, why not let Audible expand your life by listening, audiobooks, podcasts, and exclusive Audible originals that'll inspire and motivate you. Just open the app and tap into your well-being with advice and insight from leading influencers, experts, and professionals. Whatever your focus or interests, there's a listing for it on Audible. You'll find titles on better health including personal fitness, nutrition, and relaxation. Here ways to improve your relationships both in your work and personal life or how to embark on a new career strategy.

If you want to overhaul your financial life or hear small talk about investing for your future, you'll find that too. Ultimately, it's all about starting good habits. Making a positive change is the best resolution you can make for yourself. And Audible Canal, there's so much opportunity and more to imagine when you listen. Let Audible help you reach your goals you set for yourself.

Start listening today when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.ca At the beginning of every episode, there will always be time for an acknowledgement. You know, the more we do this, people ask, why do you have to do the acknowledgement and every episode? I got to tell you, I've never been more grateful for being able to raise my babies on the land where so much sacrifice was made. And I think what's really critical in this process is that the ask is just that we don't forget. So the importance of saying these words at the beginning of every episode will always be of utmost importance to me and this team.

So everything that we created here today for you happened on Treaty 7 land, which is now known as the center part of the province of Alberta. It is home of the Blackfoot Confederacy, which is made up of the Siksika, the Kainai, the Pikani, the Tatina First Nation, the Stony Nakoda First Nation, and the Métis Nation Region 3. Our job, our job as humans, is to simply acknowledge each other. That's how we do better, be better, and stay connected to the good. Welcome back! Welcome in everybody. Another episode of Unlonely is coming to you today. And this one is deeply personal to me.

It's around money and I fucking hate talking about money. And when I came upon this woman, her brilliance, her, her book, um, it really just, I knew there was this conversation around this world of loneliness that really needed to entertain the concept of money. Um, Elizabeth is a registered investment advisor representative. She's a financial advisor. So she's a speaker and the co-founder of peak 360 wealth management.

It's a boutique wealth planning firm basically, and she does nonprofit work throughout the Americas and has led workshops at like major tech companies like Airbnb, unity, Google. and has led workshops at like major tech companies, like Airbnb, Unity, Google. She, um, lives in the San Francisco Bay area with her husband and her daughter. She is of Colombian ancestry. And you know, today, just talking a lot about, as you'll hear the idea of what is our story with money, where, what was our ancestors experience? What was our parents, our grandparents story with money? Where, what was our ancestors' experience? What was our parents, our grandparents' experience with money?

How does that influence the way that we consider saving, spending? Um, is there a scarcity component that leads us to be like, Oh shit. Or this sense of like, you know, we had a lot of it. So like, let's fucking dance. Um, and I, I was just fascinated. She got, she gets very practical in this conversation about here's some things I want you to do when you're thinking about your own financial, emotional literacy and how you can have those conversations with your partner.

Um, I hope you love it because I really, really did too. Sink in everything you need is in the show notes, but, um, buckle up for Elizabeth Husserl. Okay, my friends buckle up. This one, you know, when we started this on Lonely Season, it was really about how do we dive into topics that keep people the loneliness, the loneliest in this world. And I was so blown away by the work of Elizabeth Husserl. How do I?

You said it right, Husserl. Husserl, okay. So we're gonna start again. Sorry, editing team, sick boys, just be on it and go, Hey, all right. Buckle up. Elizabeth Hustle is here today. And I gotta tell you when I, this is, this is probably more for me than anybody else on the planet this episode, because talking about when is this place of money is such a lonely place. Nobody wants to really lay their cards on the table. Sometimes it gets really tricky, you know,

even when we're building businesses and companies or, you know, trying to figure out what we do, who has enough, what is too much. And when I came up across your work, I was like, yes, ma'am, I need this voice in this world of trying to figure out how to be unlonely. So let's jump right in. I mean, the book, the book, The Power of Enough, the title for so brilliant because I have spent months and months and months trying to title

books that like drive me nuts. But in the space of money, I have said this to my father who you know regs to riches kind of story. He was just one of the most brilliant businessmen I've ever met. My husband and I really trying to figure out navigating women, men, you know, who's wearing the pants. Can we both do that? What does that look like if I'm making more than you? All those things. The question we've always had is when is enough enough? What are we doing this all for? So take it away expert girl. Tell everything. I want to know everything about you. Jodi, I would say, I mean, I like we all do, I wrote the book for myself, right? Because I was been diving into this question of like, A, how much is enough?

So similar conversations with my husband, but B, looking into how I was growing up, right? Similar, I had two working professional parents. They were great. My dad was a doctor. My mom was a therapist. So I've been around therapists my whole life, which I love them. Sweet Jesus.

Yes, exactly. I've been in family my whole life, which I love them. Sweet Jesus. Yes, exactly. I've been in family circles since age four, which is amazing. I know you would appreciate that. And yet, and so we, I had, all my needs were taken care of, right? My school was paid for, my clothes were paid for, we'd go visit family in Columbia and travel internationally. But there was still an experience of scarcity, energetically, in the household that I'm like, what is this about? Where is the software update button that I'm like, what is this about?

Like, where is the software update button that I can push, right, for all of this to go away? And I realized it wasn't so simple, right? And so I started digging, because my two passions, I love, I have a very mathematical puzzle solving brain, and I love the depth of psychology and spirituality. Like, I love humans, and I love diving into their psyche. And so just bringing...

So merging those two dichotomies, hey? Exactly. Oh, brilliant. I mean, that has been my passion, right? Like, I studied economics as my undergrad, and I did transpersonal psychology as my master's. And it's... I know, isn't that crazy? Oh, my God, you're the best human

that has collided two worlds that are just... It's like, Erin and I got married in your body. I love that. Pardon me, Jodi. I'm like, wait a second. Do not more financial professionals have a degree in psychology? Because our relationship to money is so personal and unique and abstract and conflictive. All the emotions we feel in human life,

we feel in our relationship to money, which is why a lot of times the first thing that people say when they walk in my office is like, I want so much money, I don't have to think about it. I mean, nine out of 10 people tell me that. But I just smile because I'm like, okay, you're not telling me something new, but let's do some digging to see what's really

underneath that statement of what's feeling conflictive, tense, causing anxiety about your relationship to money. Because that's the really interesting piece, right? Are you wanting to become an entrepreneur and you don't know how? Do you feel stuck in a W-2 job and you're like, when can I get out of this? Are you and your partner always fighting about differences in spending and savings, right? There's often a story that people are trying to resolve, but they think the solution is just give me enough money.

I don't have to think about it. But the reality is the more money you have, sometimes the more complex that becomes too in terms of managing it. So I started to piece it apart. And what I love about my job is that I get to do therapy with people who don't think they're going to a therapist, but they want to come and talk about money, right? And so, which is amazing, I have like this secret therapy job. Yeah, you're like inside.

Yeah. Inside. And what I tell people is that let's separate or discern what pertains the world of money and what does not. And so I love me a spreadsheet and I love the financial planning software to be like, okay, let's talk through your specifics, right? How much do you earn, spend, save, all the financial planning pieces? Where are we trying to get to?

And then when we organize this and we have a plan, I always tell them spreadsheets tell a story. My job is to read you the story. Your job is to tell me what's happening inside of you. Are you jumping for joy? Are you cringing because it feels too tight and rigid? Are you drawing a blank? Because you're like, well, this is awesome, but I have no meaning in it, right?

Like, what is the internal dialogue? Because ultimately that is what I'm more interested in. Because if we start to follow that internal dialogue, then we start to follow that internal dialogue, then we start to discern and connect to what really brings meaning to your life. Because that is when we start to connect wealth to wellbeing, which is what the root of that word is. It's connected to wellbeing. Let's talk audible. This new year, why not let Audible expand your life by listening, audiobooks, podcasts,

and exclusive Audible originals that'll inspire and motivate you. Just open the app and tap into your well-being with advice and insight from leading influencers, experts, and professionals. Whatever your focus or interests, there's a listen for it on Audible. You'll find titles on better health including personal fitness, nutrition and relaxation. Here ways to improve your relationships both in your work and personal life or how to embark on a new career strategy. If you want to overhaul your financial life or your small talk about investing for your future, you'll find that too. Ultimately, it's all about starting good habits. Making a

positive change is the best resolution you can make for yourself and Audible Canal. There's so much opportunity and more to imagine when you listen. Let Audible help you reach your goals you set for yourself. Start listening today when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.ca. I'm Dr. Lari Santos, and to welcome the new year, my podcast, The Happiness Lab, is releasing a series of happiness how-to guides to help you in 2025. I'll distill the wisdom of world-class experts into easy-to-digest actionable tips. Struggling with tough emotions? We have a how-to guide.

Worried that you're not enough? We got you. Self-obsessed and want to get over yourself? There's a guide for that too. The Happiness Labs how-to season starts January 1st. Listen on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Oh my God. I love that. Okay. And what I really, you know, what is so interesting to me, I was just listening to you speak about when I do marital therapy, one of my favorite things to do on the planet, right, is really to get two people to look at each other. And when they come from two very different perspectives and have fallen in love from an emotional perspective and then try to navigate their life.

Their kids, you know, their finances, obviously, their jobs, their respective places and communities, what often happens is they stop looking at each other. Because we only look at people when we feel safe and comfortable and competent. And the more incompetent I feel in this relationship, the less I'm gonna look at you. And when you were talking about that,

I was like, wow, what a beautiful blending of work that you've put together to be able to say, okay, listen, these two things are inevitable, right? Your connections and emotions to each other, to this thing that is absolutely necessary. We cannot live without managing money in this society. And so how much of a divisive factor in relationships, in building businesses,

does this lack of financial literacy that seems to be quite obvious, like, how much does it blow apart marriages? How much does it blow apart businesses? How critical is it? It's super critical. I mean, it is a ticking bomb in the room if you don't pay attention to it. And I would kind of clarify and say it's not just financial literacy,

it's financial emotional literacy. What is the impact of your relationship to money? And so let's go back to that example of doing marital therapy. The reality is, right, if a couple walks into your room, Jodi, and they sit down and they're having tensions around money, there's a third element or entity in that room, which is money, right? And so it's almost like, it's like we're in polyamorous relationships

when it comes to money, right? I love that. Oh, I can't wait to tell my husband that. We're in a polyamorous relationship. And the reality is, is that it's this white elephant in the room and we've just never kind of like turned to it. Much like you're saying, partners stop turning towards each other. Like why I wrote the book is there's such an

important act of turning towards money and seeing it as a guide an ally a friend and people like oh money's not my friend and I'm like actually it can be once you start to treat it in that capacity and so I give a lot of practical tools of how do you start to build that relationship with money. And you have to build that relationship with money yourself so that when you bring your partner, your spouse into the table, you're like, hey, sweetie, this is me and money. Like these are the areas that we're totally aligned

and this is what we do well and this is kind of my shadow with money. And let's start to talk about it and be aware of it so that A, you can help me improve my money relationship, and it's not an adversary in our marital dynamic, because that's what happens, right? I work with couples and I help them become each other's best money friend.

Because everyone has money wisdom and everyone has money shadow. But we don't, A, talk about it, we don't know how to discover that. It's not a common lingo in finance, right? Which is why I feel like there's so much ability to expand how we talk about wealth, how we talk about our relationship to money, and just have it be part of that financial emotional literacy that can get us to our goals so much faster. Oh man, and I think, you know, it's interesting culturally,

I'm sure this has a big play on things. Not only, you know, many of us, we're one generation out of, and I speak about this, you know, as a woman who owns my own company, who has had a very successful dad, but certainly we came from this place where, you know, women still had their roles, men still had their roles. Like, this is still the expectation of, like,

okay, but what about the kids? Okay, so that's cool that you can do all these things, but it is not certainly as celebrated as when my husband becomes successful in whatever that, you know, his area of expertise. And so when we talk, you know, I'm interested in your perspective culturally, how this sort of shapes relationships,

and then, you know, gender roles, how, what have you seen sort of happening over this last decade? How do we sort of create a better space for our sons and our daughters to understand it? So, so take me through that culturally and gender roles, if you can. A hundred percent. Right. And I think to add a layer to my cultural role is that my family's from Latin America, right? Where there's definitely gender, stark gender differences.

And then on one side and the other side was that my grandfather, you know, was fleeing Austria during World War II because he was a Jew, right? And that's kind of what marked his scarcity. So, so there's financial DNA is super inherent in both the stories that our ancestors went through and then the gender roles. And it's interesting because growing up, like I said before, my dad was a doctor, my mom was a therapist, but my dad's profession held more financial weight. Yeah.

Right? You know, my mom, right, she had a private practice. I do say looking back, I'm really grateful that she was able to work with a Latin community in New Orleans and have more agency on what she charged because of the clientele she was serving. But it's funny, Jodi, when I started, I graduated from grad school and I'm like, I don't want to be a W-2.

I want to run my own business. I couldn't quite connect to different from you. It sounds like your dad was a successful entrepreneur and probably gave you things in your body that you're like, oh, I can do that. I saw someone who did that and he was super successful at it I was lacking a lot of the skills of entrepreneurship because my mom didn't have to make her business anything but Serving the community she wanted to serve, you know what I mean? And that was gender role, right? My dad provided the bigger paycheck my mom

But you know, she didn't have to and I say that neutrally and absolutely no judgment What my saving grace was and I'm just so eternally grateful to both my parents, is that my dad didn't make a distinction between my brother and I, right? I came to feel gender difference outside of the household when I got to college. I'm like, oh, there is a ton of gender difference. My dad, we're very similar.

And so from the get-go, he always told me I could accomplish my dreams. So did my mom. So I really was kind of like held within a very safe container. And that's been so important to me, especially because I work in a very male-dominated field. Right? Sometimes I'm like, oh my gosh, not so much in my current firm because we left with a couple of partners and we created something that culturally aligns with who we are. But in my first firm, I was like, I feel like I just went to the locker room. It's just so much testosterone. There's a way that you do things in finance that is so male dominated.

Now there's amazing women who've started to come into the field and who have been pioneers, but it's such a male dominated field. And so again, part of why I wrote the book, I was like, there's a feminine approach to all of this, right? To how we talk about wealth. Wealth is relational, right? Wealth, it starts with understanding what our internal resources are

and being able to resource ourselves. And to really decouple this idea that wealth is connected to accumulating more. I love working with women. I love working with successful, high-powered women because a lot of what I do is give them permission to get off the hamster wheel and be like, hey, let's reassess. Why are you doing why you're doing it? Are you doing it because you're just driven through creativity and curiosity? Awesome.

Or are you driven because you're trying to get an external validation that you are enough, right? Because that's what you see as the ceiling. And so just in asking those questions, we start to discern the why and the purpose. And that starts to give so much clarity on the strategy we're implementing. So for example, one of my clients at pretty high level up in, used to be Square, now it's Block, she was on this really fast pace, and basically C-suite position. And then we finally decided, okay, it's time.

I want to spend time with my six year old and four year old. Right? She's like, life is passing me by and I never see them. So we worked out the financial independence plan and she's like, yes, I'll go and serve on boards later. I'll do this. I'll do, you know, she had all these plans. And then I checked in with her six months later.

She's like, oh my gosh, I just want to be a mom for a minute. Right? Like I just want to enjoy my life. And it's my job, Jody, to be like, yes, you can do that. The plan works. You have arrived. You do not have to go earn more.

That is not how you build wealth in this moment. You build wealth in this moment through connection, belonging, participation, all the other areas of our human needs. That is a wealth and economic act I Love that so much and I and I think you know what what I'm interested in most like if I take you back to that scarcity idea I'm thinking about you know what motivates you to To make money, and I think there's there feels like such a dichotomy there

So if I look at you know for sure my dad came right? They had nothing, lived in a 700 square foot house. And he just, it was pure work. And his, his only motivation was to provide for us. He felt incompetent. I'm going to put words in his mouth right now, but I felt he felt like mom was the one to do the emotional support and he was going to financially provide. Okay. So the very typical gender roles, right? When their relationship dissolved, that was the impetus for me to say, I'm never, ever, ever gonna be reliant on another human being. I am, I can be independently look after my own wealth and my family and my system

in case anything ever falls apart in my life. I will never be in a place where I'm like, oh, fuck. So that was my motivation to be like, okay, no, I'm gonna get a master's, I'm gonna get a PhD, I'm gonna set up my private practice, and now I'm gonna, oh, fuck. So that was my motivation to be like, okay, no, I'm gonna get a master's, I'm gonna get a PhD, I'm gonna set up my private practice and now I'm gonna take this and go. It's interesting that the shift for me has been from like,

do we have enough financially, will I be looked after? To the shift to like literally, I believe to the core of me, the, I am the vessel or I have the capacity to be able to bring messages to people that can not only change lives lives but save it, okay? So when that shift happens, it's interesting then that motivation changes, right? To like what happens inside of your body.

And I love those questions because there's so many dynamics with money. What is happening to me individually? But what does my husband think that this means, right? And are we enough? Are we like, where are all the things? And that question just keeps coming. Like are when is enough enough? Right. Spiritually. And when is it enough? You know, financially.

Okay. So this is great that you have 2 million, but like really be great if you had five. Like, holy fuck. Like, yes. And, or, you know, we're just paying bills. We're just, that's all I want in life. I just want enough to be able to sort of, you know, whatever it is, eat at night, you know? And you you're telling me like the history, how you get somewhere is equally as important to sort of figure out why, because it'll help you make sense of where you are at now. Right.

What motivates you is that is that sort of? Yeah. And I think one of the things that you're describing that I find so fascinating, Jodi, is like you had an impetus and a motivation in life to develop a muscle, right? This is the earnings muscle. You're like, I am gonna develop this earnings muscle so that I can take care of myself.

And so amazing motivation, right? And reality is that everyone should have an earnings muscle. Sometimes the most disempowered people that I work with, they never had to earn, because guess what? It's an amazing motivation, right? And reality is that everyone should have an earnings muscle. Sometimes the most disempowered people that I work with, they never had to earn because guess what? They inherited wealth and they're feeling a little kind of like a little flimsy at the gym because they didn't have to develop that earnings muscle. I just want to name that there's a really important motivation that you got in life

that I think is actually really healthy for all of us, right? People should know how to take care of themselves, but we can also take care of ourselves in relationship to the bigger world and communities. And then I think with the other piece, though, is that what happens is that, let's just say you turn that earnings muscle on, and you're like, oh my gosh, I'm going, going, going, building, amazing. The sky's the limit. And at some point, the question becomes, am I just such an innate creative human being

that that is just what makes me so happy? I will always start to create? Awesome. Keep creating, right? Or have I been now conditioned myself to this earnings muscle and I can't let go because if I stop earning, I'm going to feel lack. So do you see those are very different places and that's where people need to understand, okay,

am I earning because it fills me, right? That meaning fulfillment cycle that I talk about in the book or am I earning because I'm afraid that if I stop earning, I'll fall on my face, right? Or I'll become the bag lady. That's another one that I always hear is that I'm afraid I'm not gonna have enough, right? And I think what's really important too,

is that sometimes this is where we get stuck in that lifestyle creep, is that the more we earn, sometimes the more we spend. And so then you're like, wait a second, I'm earning a ton, and I don't really see the impact of it. And so I think a big piece of it is, as you start to kind of have a relationship with money and one of the practices I talk about

is how to have a conversation with money, you start to really bring that awareness of like what feels like meaningful consumption, right? Cause consumption is a neutral act. We like, it's a neutral economic act. We have to brush our teeth in the morning. We have to consume, right? You consume water, you consume food, you consume touch.

So it's a neutral act, but there is a difference between meaningful consumption and kind of empty consumption. It's like the empty ghost, right? Frivolous, right? Can you talk to me a little bit more about that? Sorry, I cut you out. You keep going. I was going to say, and I say that with absolutely no judgment, what is frivolous to you may not be frivolous to me. And that's really important. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So this is the question, and I'll just tell you this, I think one of my biggest learnings in business so far is really that the balance of that spreadsheet.

And I hate fucking spreadsheets. My husband is a spreadsheet guy. I just wanna, somehow it'll work out. Somehow it'll work, I have a great earning potential. I'm just gonna do, let's just fucking go and we Will have we only have 20 years left. Like what if we're gonna like and he's like, okay just a second and one of the greatest learnings I think I've ever had in business is you know, even The expenses and the income are so

Remarkably important to control. I was so clear that the only important thing was how much money can we make? What's my potential? Where's the revenue streams coming from? So like, should I be doing private profits? Look at I'm speaking. I've got this, I've got this, I've got this. And it's like, so let's diversify. So are you are we investing here?

We're doing this. What I did never look at is the expense side of things until my husband, of course, was like, holy shit, what is happening? Are you saving for these? Are you saying I was like, what do you think? He's like, Oh my God. Like, and he drives me nuts because he's like looking at the, he misses the forest. I tell them all this, this time you're trying to save Nichols and you're missing the quarters. And but he's so clear about like subscription costs. Like I'm signing on to TSN, ESPN, and all these things because I'm like, I'm on the road,

I need to be able to watch sports when I'm traveling. And he's like, holy fuck, you signed on to ESPN six times, Jo. Did you know that you were paying $124 a month towards ESPN and you have, I'm like, I did not know that. Those things, and then I think at the beginning of every business, and I've heard, I'm a huge fan of Scott Galloway these days,

and I hear, you know, when you begin a business and it starts to roll, you sort of think you need everything, right? Like we need to hire and hire and hire, and we need this, oh, I really like fancy chairs at the beginning of the, like in my private practice, I wanted to look fucking good. And so, like, and then at the end of the day,

when we really sat down, we were like looking at the expenses and looking at the income, And the income was great. It's even increasing year over year. But so were my expenses. And the frivolous nature of those was ridiculous to me when somebody slowed me down long enough to look at it. And I think, do you often find

that people are one or the other? I mean, I think you're the anomaly, this combination between both. Somebody said this to me when we got married, there's two kinds of people, spenders and savers. And if you can end up in the same relationship, it's gonna be fireworky, but if you can figure out that dance, it'll be perfect.

But do you find there's like, are you either one or the other? I think we're so much more, right? I mean, you're right. I think you're in therapy. It's like, you know, and this chapter didn't make it into my book because my book just got too long, but like money archetypes.

We are so many different types of money archetypes, which is really important, right? So it's hard to just like spenders or savers, we can gravitate towards it. But what's interesting, because you started the podcast with this, a lot of times our money personality comes out because of how we have a sense of safety, right? Are we secure attachment, anxious attachment, right? Are we overbearing, et cetera? And I think what's really important, and notice what we did in my industry is that then we started calling investments securities, right?

And I was like, wait, doesn't anyone else hear that? That's pretty crazy that we do that. And so what happens is that our way of using our way of being or of using money, do we spend too much? Do we save too much? Is because we're trying to find that right place of security. Right. And so I can imagine when your husband looks at your bottom line, he's like, well, what just happened? Right. Everything just went out the table or just went out the door. Cause I needed more shoes. Right. And we call it the hot potato effect. Right. We're like money comes in, you're like,

Oh, what am I gonna do? And it goes out. And so I think part hot potato effect. Money comes in, you're like, oh, what am I going to do? And it goes out. And that happens a lot with business owners, is that they start making money and they're like, we're just going to reinvest in the business. And we can call that all different ways. I can imagine if you're seeing clients and they're looking at your shoes, buying shoes is reinvesting in your business. I can justify it anyway. Exactly. You know what I mean?

But I think what's important when you start to come back to what's the enough, if you are someone who's like, you know what, I absolutely love my private practice and I never foresee myself leaving it. My mom, I'm not going to age her, mid 70s and she still has her private practice. She loves it. She will continue as a therapist as long as she able bodied. That is a different trajectory than someone who's a W-2 and is like, I want to retire by this age. Do you notice that? Like those are different trajectories

because then in both of those cases, you look backwards and say, okay, if I want to retire at a certain age, how much do I need to save, what's the best vehicle? Save first before you start incrementing some of the business expenses. If you're like, okay, I'm going to work as long as I want, there are moments where you may not be able to work, so just make you have your contingency plan. What's your disability insurance like? What's that? You can plan for those contingencies and then you can still set money aside because maybe, Jodi, one day you just want to work less.

It's not about totally retiring, but you, one day you just want to work less. It's not about totally retiring, but you're like, I just want to work with my top 10 clients because I love them and they're at this point, we go way back and they're friends. And so you just start to see and then that starts to be like, okay, if that's my time horizon, that's my goal. What's the number to set aside for that? That's the first step of enoughness where you feel, okay, money, I rolled up my sleeves. I did my job of looking. Right? That's really important. I did. It's my human responsibility to design my life. And I'm not going to scapegoat money because I don't have clarity. And what I mean, I'm not going to scapegoat money. I'm not going to get angry at it because it

doesn't show up. I'm not going to get angry at it because I'm paying too much taxes. I'm not going to get angry at it because it doesn't show up. I'm not going to get angry at it because I'm paying too much taxes. We feel anger, we feel anxious, we feel abandoned by money. All the human emotions we feel directed at money. When I tell people, you have to take responsibility for the things you don't know and the things you can't see. I don't think you have to know that immediately, but be like, okay, here's my list of questions. This is why I don't know what enough is, because A, no one's ever asked me. And then B, that's a scary thought too.

And I don't know how to get there, but that's the starting point, just starting to at least recognize that it's our responsibility to design our lives. That's where we find true financial empowerment. I love that. And you have this like, okay, so how would you suggest then that people take the reins of their financial reality and make financial choices that sort of honor that whole self piece? Like, if you know you're a spender, if you know, I mean, you like nice things, you deserve

them. How do you make sure like I hear you say save first, which is always I mean, I've heard it's like speaking to my father, it's like speaking to my husband. And I get that. Right. So like, is there, is there that rule that if you want to start to look after yourself well and honor the things that you were working for? Yeah.

Well, I mean, so I would, I would take a step back, right. When I wrote this book, The Power of Enough, without any traditional financial strategy in mind, which was really important to me. I mean, there's a ton of books that you can go read around financial literacy. I wanted that financial emotional literacy, because I would say, especially to someone who doesn't like a spreadsheet or like is overwhelmed by like paying taxes or whatever money,

you know, all those nitty gritty things that we have to do. What I would tell them is that we can have such a healthy relationship with money without even starting with the numbers. Put the numbers aside for a second. Right? I'm writing to the half of the population, Jodi. Yes, you are. I don't like spreadsheets. Right. And I'm like, great. We, we don't need to look at spreadsheets to dive into our relationship to money, which is really important. And I'm hoping that if we put the numbers aside, we can also start to have more meaningful

conversations not just with yourself, but with others. The book is filled of also practical exercises and many moments that make you pause in journal because I want people to go through a process. Some examples specifically, I have people write out their money story. Really important. Start with your first memory of money, write it chronologically, and then come back to it a week later, Jodi, and read it as if you're reading the story of your best friend. If you're like, best friend's like, hey, I need some help. Here's my story. Read it from that

lens and start to see where the connections are. Without that judgment, yeah. Exactly. From your perspective, what has shaped you to be an entrepreneur? What are the things that you've learned that have created grit, as you explained before? What are those patterns? I see that pattern and it continues today. Write your money story. Second, we have financial DNA. Write out your ancestor's story. What did they experience? Did they experience scarcity, abundance, enoughness? Were they entrepreneurs?

Were they W-2? Did they both work? Da da da da da. I often get the question, but what if I'm adopted? Write about the place that you come from, your country of origin, even if that's not where you live today, where are those genes? If you were adopted but you were born in another country, try to learn about what was going on in that country in that time because that was part of the cultural ethos that you were bred in before you were adopted. You can also go into that direction.

I also have people do a conversation with money and I can explain that in a second. Lastly, one of my favorite tools, I have people and I do this with all my clients. We do something called the wealth mandala. And this is really important because I really want to emphasize that human needs are natural. Human needs are universal, but the way that we satisfy them is unique and personal. And that's really important, right? So we know we're familiar with Maslow's work on needs, even though he didn't write a hierarchy. It was a corporate company that put it into a hierarchy shape. So I flatten it and I create this mandala. Mandala means circle in Sanskrit, and it's the journey and the path of becoming.

And so when we take the 12 human needs and I situate them, like some mind-centered needs, some body-centered needs, some heart-centered needs, some heart-centered needs, some spirit-centered needs. When you situate them and you just start to be like, okay, on a scale of one to ten, how fulfilled am I? Right? One of those needs is financial health. But financial health is in relationship to all these other needs. And you start to look at, okay, you know, actually maybe I'm a nine out of ten in my

financial health. And so that's actually not where a lot of my resources need to be. I'm feeling poverty and the need for touch or community or belonging. Right? This is so much of what's in your, in your podcast is this feeling of like, I have so much yet I feel so poor. Yeah. So lonely.

That is the question that I was trying to answer with this book. Why do we in this country have so much and yet we feel so poor? And so I try to help expand what are those areas that make us feel wealthy, that we can embody wealth. It's a visceral feeling. And so the last tool that I really like is shifting from a gratitude perspective, which I think is really important, but I like people to think about satiation. What satisfies them?

What fulfills them? How do we savor? And I'll take them through a practice of for 30 days, sit down and write, what are the three things each day that satisfied me, that fulfilled me? And you do that for 30 days and then you kind of, again, go back to it and you're reading like, what are the patterns? What are the strategies that I actually know work in my life? And what you'll start to see, Jodi, is that once we start to put all of the other needs more into focus and more into balance, our money habits start to relax a little bit.

Because then our relationship to money doesn't have to be everything that solves our sense of worth and wealth. And that's a key component. Oh, I love that. I yes, I got it. And I think, you know, even as you're talking about this, right out your, you know, your story with money, I think that so many of us don't reflect on, you know, why it matters. We just want more. And if I think slowly about mine, I mean, the, the only way I felt like, and I know this isn't true now in the work that we've done, but that I would impress my dad the most is when I would get a scholarship,

when I would become successful, when I would be like, I got it dad. Anytime I would have to ask for money, it was a big deal. So we had the agreement that he would pay tuition, but every time there was, and I now see it as such a teachable moment, right? Like there was such a humility around money for him that like you never brag, you make sure you serve

other people when you have it, those kinds of things. But it is something we never talked about. So he's now in the middle and stages of dementia and I still have no idea. I wish I would have learned so much more from him. And why do you think, you know, when we reflect on our own stories, has money been such a,

I guess that's the visceral sense, right, for most people, is it like you don't talk about your money? Yeah, well, and well, there's so much to say there, Jodie, but I think, you know, and I love that your dad is actually still alive because I think one of the things that I would say to you is, you know, he has had such a presence in your relationship to money.

And to sit down, you know, take a white piece of paper, put a line down the middle and say, okay, Dad, this is what I want to take with me forward in my life and teach my kids. This is, this is, or the qualities that aren't mine, that I want you to take with you when you pass. Right? And get super clear, right out the ones that were his, you can do it with a lot of ton

of gratitude and graciousness and then like stick it under his pillow and be like, dad, you take this with you, right? I don't want it. Um, I did that with my grandmother, you know? I learned perfectionism from my grandmother. She died very proud of being a perfectionist. I was like, oh my God, I'm a recovering perfectionist. I don't want this. You take this with you to the grave, right?

I want the other. But so much of that is good too, right? Like the pieces of her, as you said, yeah. You know, and she taught me how to be a hostess. She taught me how to build community. And so those are the things that I take with me and I want to pass on to my daughter. But the rigidity of, we would say in Spanish,

que diran, like what would people say of me? I'm like, don't want that, right? I wanna prove for myself. And so, I love that work with the generation we come from because they were doing their best, right? I have so much loving and graciousness for it, but something is not mine. So that's the first thing that comes

when you were saying that. And when we start to do that, it really does become a clean slate. And coming back to conversations with your husband, it's like, whoa, you like to do it one way. I like to do it my way. Let's not get stuck in the superficial, just tension that we're different.

Let's take the time to dig and see what is my relationship with money. Because guess what, honey, right? I have things to teach us. I'm a visionary, I'm creative. I'm like gonna throw myself out the world and take risk, amazing. And maybe I can pause a little bit more

to look at expenses. I get that. Right. And so do you see where, how do you bring out your wisdom and how will you take responsibility for your shadow? And same, same, I'm sure he has his own wisdom and shadow. Oh, I'll tell you, he's got some shadow. That's the part I know about. The more we start to just, is there too. You're right. Right. But when we start to just take it a little less personal and to be like, hey, we've been shaped by our family, we've been shaped by society, let's just see what's the story of my life until now, then we get to write the next chapter. I love that.

And I think oftentimes, you know, what I hear in my practice or what I've sort of seen and, you know, even with our own family system, is that when people get sick, you realize that money is just such a fleeting issue, right? Of course it's necessary and it's all those things, but at the end of the day, really digging into the relationship piece of it matters so much, because you can't take it with you. And that's the piece, even we talk about leaving

for our children, the legacy conversations, I think two genera- you tell me this, but I think one or two generations ago, that was so much more important than it is now, than to be able to just distribute buckets to the next season. They better figure their shit out. And we talk about this with our kids all the time, right?

Is that like, do not expect, we're gonna go out with our hair on fire. Do not expect, you're gonna get, you know, we'll look after you, we'll care for you, we'll provide every opportunity we can to make you great humans. Right. But you're also going to make it in this world. Right? Exactly.

And it comes back. Isn't that a different conversation? A hundred percent. It comes back to them in our dad's head. Yes. Right? It comes back to you're going to teach them how to have like money muscles. You're going to teach them how to earn.

Right? Hopefully you do teach them how to save. You teach them how to invest, teach them how to gift, teach them how to spend, right? Like people are like, what do you mean I'm gonna teach... Yeah, teach them how to be conscious spenders and teach them how to enjoy their spending, which is another thing. And I wish we did that more, like even in university, like, you know, there wasn't a lot of... or like, you know, grade school, right? Like, let's throw out, I don't know what, but like, can you imagine, like, here's how you balance, here's a P&L.

Here's what this, I didn't even know what a fucking P&L was, and I was like five years into my own company, right? Like, I was like, oh shit, we gotta pay taxes, fuck, I didn't really know about that. But like, I mean, it wasn't- Didn't say that, it wasn't quite that bad, but it was close. But I think it's like, that piece is so critically important,

and I think about like, I watch Aaron, you know, with our kids and he, like, they have accounts in the market. So, you know, Asher thought he owned the Royal Bank of Canada because we bought a share in the market of RBC. So for $5 or whatever. So we were driving one day. He's like, Oh, there's the bank I own. Yes. Amazing. Yes, you do, babe. Yes. But you know what? But I love that. Right? Right. He's participating, right? He is invested with the, you know, the future well-being of that, of that company, of that bank. So yeah, it's sort of that piece of it. That's interesting.

Now this conversation with money, you said you were going to get back to the benefits of, you know, cause I love these things. I mean, I Now, this conversation with money, you said you were gonna get back to, the benefits of, you know, cause I love these things. I mean, I literally, this is all gonna go in my next book too, just so you know, because I think when you talk about- I love to collaborate, go for it.

Yes, yes, yes. Pay it forward. But it's really this idea about like, you know, I think there's so many things in this lonely world where we have to get back to becoming human. And becoming human, there's an emotional side to all of it that I've talked about forever,

but really what are the practical sides that how do we have those conversations about money? How do we have those things with our children and pass that on? If we want the next generation to be healthier and more connected, here's the roadmap. One of those things you're gonna have to do is have some emotional literacy around money.

And that is, we don't have a curriculum for that. In any K to 12, as far as I know. I mean, we can get you into some specific course. But this is so essential, because learning how to navigate that will become fundamental in relationship, in business. Yeah, I mean, I would say, again, you have to know what your relationship style is, right?

That's fundamental to know how you show up in relationships and business and etc. So the same thing is with money. And so, you know, the the conversations with money as any therapist would know is it's a Just talk it's a gestalt chair exercise the empty chair exercise, right? And so which I would love for every therapist to do. Right. It's not that more complicated than that. I learned it in grad school. So can you explain? Yeah, I will. Can you explain the empty chair? OK. Totally. I learned it in grad school for it was the only class on how to build a private practice.

Right. And so he had us, which I'm like, wait, is there only a three hour class on this? And we just went through it. You want us all to work in public practice in the hospital and die. Got it. Totally. But what was amazing is that he sat us down, right? Dr. Michael Klein, I will never forget this, and he put us in dyads and he said, okay, pull out your wallet. And we're like, okay, that's an interesting ask.

And he put us in dyads and he said, we're gonna have a conversation with money, the empty chair exercise, and we would take turns. Literally, you would put your wallet in an empty chair in front of you. I love this Jody, he would say, you can an empty chair in front of you. I love this Jody. He would say, you can pull the chair closer if you're wanting more secure attachment. You can push it away if you're reacting to it. He let us adjust the space,

which is phenomenal. Then we had a timed 10-minute per person, and we would have a conversation with money. What was really important, and I say this in the book, it's not about telling money your money story. Money's in your wallet, it's not about telling money your money story. Money's in your wallet, it's in your back pocket, it's in your purse. Money knows your story, right? So the invitation here is to tell money what you're feeling about it. Like, God damn it, where have you been my whole life? We're like, money, I don't get it.

I make so much of you, but where do you go? Like, what's that genuine initial thing, right? I mean, I'm seeing your face. What's the first thing you would tell to money, Jodi? Oh, okay. So right out of my gate, I would just be like, grateful that it's there. Yeah. Oh, I feel that. And then what would money respond to you? It would say you need to be, you need to honor me more. Great. So money, tell me, what does that mean? It means that you can do so much with this.

Just be very careful that you make the right choices. Yeah. And so that's a great entry point. Like if I were facilitating this or if I were doing a conversation with money, I would just start poking a little more because what's interesting is that your money Jodi is gonna tell you what it needs from you for respect and for honoring much like you know one person is gonna tell their other partner this is what respect means to me it's not gonna be the same yeah right and that's why it's hard to write these like you know like people feel like

there is this magic bullet of how am I going to have a healthy relationship to money? And the reality is, no, you have to roll up the sleeves and do the work of understanding who you and money are. Amazing. And so the empty chair exercise, you get a turn to express what you need, right? It's often longer than what you just modeled, Jodi, which is awesome. And then money gets a chance to respond.

And I tell people if you get stuck and you're like, oh, I can't talk to money. That's fucking weird. Right. Exactly. Talk to the part of you that pays bills. There is a part of you that is in charge of making some money decisions because you're here and listening to this podcast and so you probably bought a phone. You know what I mean?

And so talk to the part of you that is in charge and just like you can have this parts conversation of it. And what the beauty is that in a very short period of time, you get to the cru of you that is in charge and just like you can have this parts conversation of, and what the beauty is that in a very short period of time you get to the crux of what is in that relationship, right? It's almost like, oh my gosh, I never knew this was happening. It's like taking money to therapy and getting that clarity of what the core issue is.

So I often find that I go straight into that and then there's just so much to unpack. Oh, I love that. And so just, I'll slow this down a little bit. So like in any work that I think is helpful in this world, whether it's, you know, trauma, any space of doing emotionally laden work, you can really take it from a behavioral perspective, which like hurts my core. And this is, I think the world that, you know, finances have sort of been born into, right? Like, let's go, what is your behavior? What's your spending habits? What's your saving habits? And like, what do you want? What do you need? So we

can get down to the brass tacks of like the numbers of things. What I think has really shifted in my practice and what I'm hearing Elizabeth teach us is really the point that there's also an emotional side to everything. So I very rarely do just behavioral work in my practice anymore, because it's irrelevant if you don't understand the emotion underneath it. So when I'm talking about trauma, when I'm talking about any of those kinds of things,

I'm always like, where do you feel it in your body? And you can imagine police officers or people very, the people who I think need connection the most are middle-aged men, where there's a lack of emotional language, statistically speaking. And so when you start to speak about it in that way, it feels like, what the fuck you, what do you mean? It's where in my body, which tells me always we're making the right choice. We need to get there.

So there's this tactic called the empty chair, where you just sort of, if the partner can't be there, or if you're mad at an organization or, you know, if you wish you could go back and talk to the inner child or your dad that is now gone, you can just sit in front of a chair and imagine them to be there and what would you say? And it feels weird and uncomfortable, but I will tell you, it's one of the most important therapeutic interventions

because it allows us to bring emotion into the room and really start to address things. And so I've never heard this concept of bringing money as one of the most important pivotal entities in our lives and our families into this picture. And as you said, physically, I love this as Dr. Klein would have you do this, put your wallet in your chair. Now you can put your bank card, dispose, whatever it is. And it might feel silly. And you know, you don't necessarily need a facilitator. You certainly can get this book, but it's, it's this idea of being able to just do this, not just even in your head, but the

benefits of physically doing this. And if you don't want anybody to see it, I mean, do this in your room alone. But I can just imagine the impact that will come to the surface. And what's interesting is that in the years that I've been doing this with clients, they start to take it on again as a muscle. Let's go back to those earning muscles, savings muscles. Now they start having a conversation with money muscle. And I remember clients would be like, oh my gosh, I just had the most amazing conversation

with money while I was swimming laps in the pool. Like, money said this, I said this. Or they'll be driving home from work and they will literally shift in there. I'm like, keep your eye on the road, but they'll shift from one side or the other. Or I had someone text me the other day, she's like, oh my gosh, I had to run out the door, so I have a to-be-finished conversation with money. I'm like, great, come back to it.

And so what happens is that it truly, I mean, I look around, we have pictures of our loved ones around our house, right? Money is that also, it's a family member that we just never talk to. And when we start to do that and we invite them in, like I have my money jar right there and I have framed pictures of a dollar bill

that a client signed for me. I just treat it as a family member and it's just a part of my life. There's moments when I wake up angry at it, I'm like, mm, okay, we gotta sit down and chat. This isn't working, right? And what I start to experience is that it's oftentimes things sit down and chat. This isn't working, right? Or like, and what I start to experience is that it's oftentimes that things that,

adjustments I need to make in my life, right? I'm like, god damn it, money, what? And money's like, hmm, did you take on a client when you actually knew you shouldn't? You shouldn't, yeah. That's on you. I'm like, ugh, okay, my martyr's out, right? And so we start to, you know, but it can be gentle,

it can be a guide, and when you start doing that in relationship, right, and you're like, okay, you turn to your husband, it can be a guide, and when you start doing that in relationship, right, and you're like, okay, turn to your husband, what's your conversation with money? You start to realize that there's a lot of fertile ground to come together and help each other have a better relationship with money, not out of a fix it or shaming place,

but more of like, yeah, that is your relationship style, and much like you were potentially dealing with a friend that you're struggling with, let's help you have a better relationship. So there's just so much possibility. Oh my gosh. Take this and run with it, Jodi. So good.

And I think too, it just gives us a different entry point about talking about money that doesn't have to do with numbers, because like no one wants to ask, how much do you make, how much do you spend. We're still too uncomfortable there, but we can talk about our first money memory. When did you develop your earning muscle? When did you develop?

We can share those stories, and that's one way that we start to feel less lonely in our relationship to money, because we can tell our stories. I love it. I love it. The antithesis to loneliness, becoming unlonely is certainly always the same bottom line, right? When you face it, when you step into it, you have to do it on purpose. It is so much easier to not talk about it. It's so much easier to look away. And so I think that is sort of the theme that

we keep talking about here and there is no difference in this world of money. So Elizabeth Hasrel, thank you so much. I'm going to put all of the show notes in here. January 7th, the book came out, The Power of Enough. Thank you so much for giving me your time today. It was such a joy. Such a joy. Thank you. And Jodi, I'll say one last thing is that there's a ton of free resources. Like this is my gift to the world. And so, yes, they can buy the book. It'd be awesome.

But they can also go to my website and download free resources. There's a how to write your money story. There's a how to do the wealth mandala. My job is just for people to have a healthier relationship with money. Ah, you're amazing. Thank you for that. And we will put all of those notes in there. Team, in the meantime, I want you to take care of yourself first and then take care of the people

you love. And I'm so glad you got to listen with us today and I'll see you right back here next time. Unlonely podcast is produced by three incredible humans, Brian Siever, Taylor McGilvery, and Jeremy Saunders, all of Snack Lab Productions. Our executive producer, my favorite human on this planet, is Marty Piller. Soundtracks were created by Donovan Morgan, Unlonely branded artwork created by Elliot Cuss, our big PR shooters are Des Venot and Barry Cohen. Our digital marketing manager is the amazing

Shana Haddon. Our 007 secret agent from the talent bureau is Jeff Lowness. And emotional support is provided by Asher Grant, Evan Grant, and Olivia Grant. Go Liv! I am a registered clinical psychologist in Alberta, Canada. The content created and produced in this show is not intended as specific therapeutic advice. The intention of this podcast is to provide information, resources, education, and the one thing I think we all need the most, a safe place to land in this lonely world. We're all so glad you're here. Let's talk audible. This new year, why not let audible expand your life by listening, audiobooks, podcasts,

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