Unlonely with Dr. Jody Carrington - Where are the adults? Who's in charge here? - Jake Ernst

Episode Date: August 1, 2024

Jake Ernst is a social worker and psychotherapist. He is the Clinical Director at Straight Up Health, which is a family mental health clinic in Toronto. He is an engaging speaker and educator and has delivered workshops about mental, emotional, and social health, an acronym he refers to as MESH, for executives and employees at various large-scale corporations and at countless community health agencies, schools, and conferences.This week Jody and Jake Ernst discuss the impact of technology on children's mental, emotional, and social health. They explore the challenges of navigating the changing tech landscape and the importance of understanding the developing brain in a noisy world.Find more Jake:Instagram Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. At the beginning of every episode, there will always be time for an acknowledgement. You know, the more we do this, people ask, why do you have to do the acknowledgement and every episode? I got to tell you, I've never been more grateful for being able to raise my babies on a land where so much sacrifice was made. And I think what's really critical in this process is that the ask is just that we don't forget. So the importance of saying these words at the beginning of every episode will always be of utmost importance to me

and this team. So everything that we created here today for you happened on Treaty 7 land, which is now known as the center part of the province of Alberta. It is home of the Blackfoot Confederacy, which is made up of the Siksika, the Kainai, the Pekinni, the Tatina First Nation, the Stony Nakota First Nation, and the Métis Nation Region 3. Our job, our job as humans, is to simply acknowledge each other. That's how we do better, be better, and stay connected to the good. Welcome back. Welcome in my fellow humans. I am so grateful to have your ears back here on the Everyone Comes From Somewhere podcast. Today, I want to dive into a topic that people ask me a

lot about, that I think about as a parent right now to a set of 11-year-old twins and a almost 14-year-old young human um, am honestly thinking a lot about what's happening to their brains in this very noisy world. And I met this guest, actually he, listen, I was introduced to this guest by, uh, one of my dearest friends, Joe Dombrowski. And he said to me, he was on tour in Toronto and he said, Hey, have you, have you met this therapist who is like taking Toronto by storm? His name is Jake Ernst. And I was like, no, I haven't. And how do you know him? He's like, he's just the most incredible human. And that's what happens to me is I attract amazing humans. I was like, you're not wrong. And so he set us up on a blind date

and, um, we fell in love. It was amazing. I was blown away by this kid. And I say this because I feel like I'm a senior in this moment, but started his own practice, really diving into attachment and connection and neurodevelopment in kids, which I find is so rare, particularly not so much from the social work perspective, which is of course where Jake comes from. And I just, I want to tell you a little bit about him and then I want you to buckle up because if you have a kid, if you know a kid, if you love a kid, um, this is for you. So Jake Ernst is a social worker and, um, a psychotherapist. He is the clinical director at Straight Up Health, which is a family mental health clinic in Toronto. Jake provides clinical supervision to his team of therapists in this practice that he runs. And he also continues to

practice where he supports young people and their families. Jake is an engaging speaker and educator and has delivered workshops on mental, emotional, and social health, an acronym he refers to as AMESH. He's done this for executives and employees, large scale corporations and schools. He is, uh, he has a particular interest in specifically understanding the developing brain in the changing tech landscape. And let me tell you, do we got a lot to talk about there? So this amazing human that sits in front of me right now, I want to know this story. Okay. The difference between, I think empathy and judgment always around here is context, is your story. So let's start. Before we understand how amazing you are, I want to know where this all began. Where do you come from,

Jake? Jodi, Jodi, Jodi. I mean, number one, there was just so much kindness just baked into that intro. So thank you. I, I agree. We did fall in love, didn't we? We fell in love that day. We fell in love that day. I was just so, Marty and I were up for dinner and you were telling us about your boyfriend and your family and how amazing you are and how in love you are with the people in your life. And it just, you know, I left there just thinking like, this is the epitome of a good human. And I just couldn't wait to meet again. And I think, you know, it took us longer than I anticipated, but I think that's, this speaks to the fact that like, when you meet somebody, that's fantastic. You've got to make your way back to them. And, you know, for as allowed

that to happen sometimes, but it just, I'm so grateful we get to sit today. And I want to know. I want to know it all. Me too. I'm a small town boy. I'm a small town kid at heart. And I grew up in a small town in southern Ontario. And I always felt a lot bigger than the small town. I think that's sort of the earliest memory I had of that small town is that it felt just a bit too small for me. I had really big ideas, really big thoughts, really big feelings. And I was really interested in having bigger conversations that I think a lot of the people

around me were ready or willing to have. And really early on, I was that kid, you know, on the playground, like helping people through their problems. I thought I was Arthur Reed. I thought I was like, you know, a cartoon character who was destined for just bigger things. And so I found my way to Toronto eventually. And when I got to Toronto, I realized like, wow, this is a really big place with really big ideas and a lot of really big things happening. And quite honestly, it was a really big moment in my life that I felt a little bit knocked off of my feet a little bit because I didn't feel so equipped. I didn't feel prepared. I didn't feel

as though the small town, uh, prepared me for it. And it's taken me a number of years to realize that I was always ready for it. It was a small town nervous system that really does bring an essential component of my work into my practice of just having that calm, steady, sturdy nervous system to do this important work nervous system tell me about that because i got one of those like in this small town what what happened here siblings how does this work yeah let me paint the picture for me so i yeah i big family uh again big family small town i have a family of six and i have three other siblings so there are four of us all together and at a young age

in high school, my dad actually died. And so it was actually a single mom, uh, throughout high school and beyond that raised four kids. And so I have just so much gratitude to my mom and she is just such a strong, strong woman. And she's also, um, you know, just the most simple human. And I felt a lot more complex than I think that she was able to really kind of make sense of. And I was this like vibrant, eccentric, like kind of brainy kid that was just really interested in having conversations. I was that kid that would come home and be like, did you know a T-Rex is different than a Stegosaurus? Did you know that? You know, always asking questions and always kind of talking about big ideas and big things. And I would say that was a big moment in my life was

the passing of my dad really early on. And I think that gave me a lot of perspective on the world and on each other. And I think that is a big driver of the work I do. What was his name? His name was Jeff. Yeah, he was a carpenter. So he did a lot of work with his hands and he taught me everything I know about being handy about, um, you know, just making a home and just like making and building a life of love. Oh, amazing. How did he pass?

He died by a heart attack. He, he was a smoker from a very young age. Um, and just, uh, you know, around the time, uh, you know, that he started smoking, he was in high school. So he was smoking, um, you know, with the cool kids at lunchtime, uh, and, and, you know, in, in the years leading up to his passing, he actually started to quit smoking. And unfortunately his heart, uh, just, you know, was really affected by years and years and years of wear and tear on the heart and so yeah it was a smoking related heart attack oh Jeff well you

did good while you were here dude I mean the legacy lives on in this beautiful human and and the siblings what's that like what are they like I have one older brother a younger brother and a younger sister and they two of them my younger sister and my older brother recently just became parents. So it's a really big moment in my family. Now that I'm an uncle, I have two nephews who are just these little humans kind of bouncing around and doing really, really amazing things in this world. So it's really fun to like kind of watch them grow and to again like even just watch my siblings become parents i think is just a moment of awe that i'm just constantly like this is so exciting i love watching and are they close to you

do you does everybody still live quite close they they're back in back in small town and my younger brother is in Alberta actually. Oh yes. Okay. I remember you telling me that. All right. So you then moved to Toronto and how do we, how do we choose social work? You know, because as you start to talk about your nephews, I mean, I think this is part of the interesting thing for me, you know, the way that we've been trained and how we were sort of trained to operate with kids has changed so significantly, I think, even since we left school. Right. And so this idea now of like what developmentally do kids need is, is important. How did you, why did that become something you wanted to know? Right. What,

why representing kids in their stories and getting people to understand them? Why was that important to you, to your core? I would say that the earliest memory that I had of being a young person was feeling different and feeling alone. And as a gay person and in a small town, not really feeling understood, I just have really early memories of kind of just feeling different. And the really empowering thing that I can look at it now that I'm an adult, I can look at that young person and I actually feel quite empowered by it now that I'm an adult. I can look at that young person and I actually feel quite empowered by it now. I feel it was such a moment of difference that really set me apart, that sent me on this trajectory that I kind of felt like I needed to grow it. That was sort of

my destiny. But at the time, I remember that being really confusing for me and always looking around to other people in my class, kind of wondering like, why isn't anyone interested in like the solar system? Why isn't anyone interested in talking about these like bigger things these bigger ideas that we don't maybe have answers to and so the the bigger questions especially the things that we don't have answers to always fascinated me and from a young young age I was always the kid who was tracking patterns and always watching how other people talk to each other. And I just remember watching my, my parents, um, you know, smoking at the table when I was really young and, uh, with all their friends playing cards and just listening and watching just the way that they all talk to each other. I found that so fascinating, even more fascinating than TV. I was not a kid who

was gravitated towards like video games and TV. I was more so interested in just watching other people talk and watching other people be like adults. And so I wanted to be an adult so bad as a kid, just so, so bad. And so growing up, I always wanted to get older, funny enough. But as I did get older, I realized that I was such a practice of just reclaiming the younger parts of myself, like the childhood parts of myself. So I was a camp counselor. I worked with young people, uh, a lot. And that is what kind of, uh, sparked this passion for helping and for social work. Amazing. Okay. And so you get your social work degree, you, you get, uh, you have a master's.

Did I lose you? Did I lose you did i lose you you're back did you lose me i'm back hello you said so you get your social yes and tell tell me what happens then like take me through it how do you have a thriving practice in friggin downtown toronto at this age you know i throughout the pandemic I noticed that there was a really big gap in the children's mental health space. And specifically, I felt there was a gap in the leap from children's mental health to youth mental health. And I felt like there were a lot of kids that were getting lost as they go from 10, 11, 12, 13, aging out of the children's mental health system into the adolescent system. And so

I was always sort of a gap finder. I was always sort of looking for where are the points of entry and where do people need a lot of help? And so when kids were sort of aging out of the children's mental health system, I was kind of thinking, you know, we need a place to capture this preteen and these teenage years, which can become so challenging for kids, especially when they don't have access to supports or access to conversations outside of their family, outside of their friendships, outside of maybe school teachers and the grownups that, that can support them socially, but maybe not so much mentally or emotionally. And so it's a bit, it was a big, big leap that I took to say I need to create a space for kids.

To sort of fill that place. And I think this speaks to something that gets me out of bed every single morning because I often say this. People say, are we in a mental health crisis? I actually don't think so. I think we're in an understandable human response to a loneliness epidemic. And when we talk about providing spaces for kids, for families, that's what I always have forever seen my role as a psychologist as right is really providing a safe space to make sense of hard things. And it's an opportunity that I wish everybody had access to. I wish everybody could find the fit because it is the sense that we all,

we were never meant to do this alone. And when we think about what kids have on their plates, I mean, my preference, as you know, is typically to work with the adults. I think that if the big people aren't okay, the little people don't stand a chance. And I often talk about how we are the first generation of parents that have access to social media. Kids grew up with it. I'm the first generation of parents that have access to social media. Kids grew up with it. I'm the first generation parent that didn't have a computer in university. I had a flip phone when I started dating my husband. This is not ancient history. This is four minutes ago. And our brains, our capacity, the only way our kids are going to be okay

is if the big people in this current generation can figure out how to regulate quick enough to be able to walk them through hard things. And I am so fascinated that you are becoming the voice of understanding then what is that perspective like for a group of teenagers, pre-teenagers living in this world where we get really dysregulated, disconnected parents. What is that effect looking like? And you know, you and I just talked a little bit off screen. There's a book that's sort of taking the world by storm right now by Jonathan Haidt called The Anxious Generation, how the great rewiring of childhood is causing an epidemic of mental illness. And I said to you, you know, can you speak to this? And you're like, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I know it inside and out. So I want to know in your practice, in your world, in your

system, where are we at these days in this one generation? Do you think we're in a mental health crisis? What worries you the most about babes? What do we, you know, what do you think about the most in this space? I often say that I work with kids and inner kids. Those are sort of my two population that I work with. And I think. Those are sort of my two population that I work with. And I think that you're exactly right, that when the adults are not okay, when the grownups are not okay, then the kids don't stand a chance. And which is why a big part of my work is working with parents and working with the adults. I do a lot of education. I do a lot of speaking. I do a lot of even parent and family work. And of course,

helping kids be their best. I have this image in my mind. So when you ask this sort of question, like, you know, is there a mental health crisis, I just picture a bunch of kids holding these big boulders on their shoulders, all by themselves. And then we're asking them to go through life alone, and basically be their own adults. And I, see that image and I think, you know, kids need help. They need people to help hold this really heavy, really hard realities of the world so that they can be their best self. And I would say that when it comes to this question of is there a mental health crisis? I think that's the wrong conversation altogether. I mean, I think that for many years, the human brain has been able to survive and move through hard things. And at the same time, I'm more sort of interested in having a more generative

conversation, which is why I like the acronym MESH, mental, emotional, and social health. I think we figured out how to have that mental health conversation. I think we figured out the emotional health conversation. What I am most interested in right to have that mental health conversation. I think we figured out the emotional health conversation. What I am most interested in right now and the biggest conversation I'm having is conversations about social health. I think more than anything, there's a bigger question on my mind, which is what is making it so hard for us to be together? What is making it so hard for us to engage in positive and healthy social health practices? So define social health. I don't think that we figured.

Oh, sorry. I talked to her. I just don't think that we have collectively and culturally ironed out that definition. Right. And so here's my definition. Social health comes from a mix of two things. It's knowing ourselves and knowing each other. And when we are only working on the knowing ourselves,

that's only one side of this puzzle. Knowing each other is the missing piece right here. And being able to be together, to show up together, to be brave, vulnerability, you know, wise minded, all those, there's a ton of skill sets, right, that bring us to that place. And I often say that, you know, in, in our practice, in my work that I do, I I'm teaching kids how to repair relationships. I'm teaching kids how to be in relationships. Okay. So to this point, this is what I think is really interesting. So when we think about social health, it is really the reciprocal nature, nature that is necessary in human connection. Okay. The only way you can tell somebody how to

do that is you have to show them. And if we've never been this disconnected, if we've never had this lease opportunities, you think about the class sizes at school. You think about the square footage of the homes that we're raising our babies in. We have so much access to soccer and hockey and chess club and all of these beautiful things. And then what happens is where's our time to just sit in a room and watch our parents smoke and play cards. Now I'm not suggesting our parents should smoke and play cards, but again, like, I mean, this is what I grew up around a table watching people play crib and schmear and fight and figure things out. And then we'd all go home and, you know,

in the backseat of the car. And you know, people say to me, do you always romanticize the, the good old days? Oh my goodness. And, and if you, if that was what do you always romanticize the good old days? Oh, my goodness. And if that was what it sounds like I'm doing, then stop me because that's not. There was so much shit that happened back then, too. What we will never automate, in my opinion, Jake, tell me this, is authentic interaction. And we need access to each other to do it. Yeah. And so this conversation, you know, about phones and

phones in schools and going phone free and reducing our social media use, none of that matters if we can't hover above that problem and see the real issue, which is that anytime we are trying to fabricate social connection, we are already at a loss. We are already at a disadvantage. Anytime we are trying to artificially or create false connection, we're at a disadvantage. We are already at a disadvantage. Anytime we are trying to artificially or create false connection, we're at a disadvantage. And so here's what we did. When we give kids access to smartphones, we thought that was going to be the training wheels that was going to help them ride the bike, right? But it was the social health toxin that we gave them that unfortunately did not make relationships better, did not connect them more. It actually sent us into a ton of unhealthy mental habits. Okay. Well, so yes, I think the intention behind

social media smartphones, right? We were blown away. Like look at the access that in our generation we now have to grandparents in a different state. Um, you know, information across the globe, let's do this. Oh my God, everybody, let's start to do iPads and use this. You need a technological language when you get into school. This is what is going to set you ahead. And what we didn't realize is the human race has two rules, right? We're neurobiologically wired for connection, but the hardest thing we will ever do is look at each other. And in order to be healthy, we've got to look at each other. But now we have so many exit ramps. We didn't realize that people would much prefer to sink in to the anonymity of their phone

than go over and play a game with their friends or go build something in a bush, which is all required. This idea of play is so important. And so why? Why do we prefer to get lost in social media when there can be so much joy in individual relationship? Like, why do you think so many people are preferring, you know, vehemently to stay connected online? You take my phone, I'll fight you. Um, we need phones in classrooms cause it's a human right issue. Like, well, why has that become such a thing that is so deeply entrenched in the last

decade, just decade. because we've watched mental health of kids. You can track it. The introduction of the smartphone and mental health of kids, generally speaking, in North America is a massive correlation. So let's just back up a second. We gave them the smartphone. They're the first generation to go through puberty with a smartphone in their hand. The iPhone 4 in 2010 was the first smartphone to have a front-facing camera. Two years later, we also introduced mobile data. And the combination of both of those in 2012 enabled the development of all these photo-sharing apps like Instagram and Snapchat, right, that set this problem ablaze. We basically inserted this into a middle school and said, hey, let's just see what happens when kids post themselves online and what happens when they like and comment on each other in a very granular level.

When their brains are very, when their prefrontal cortexes are very tiny. Let's just see what happens. When the social brain is on fire. Yeah. Right. So how's that working? The whole job of a middle, well, the whole job of a middle schooler is to work on relationships. I think about the job of a middle schooler. Their job is to figure out how to be together, is to work on relationships. I think about the job of a middle schooler. Their job is to figure out how to be together, how to be in relationships. I think the next level job of a high schooler, right, is to work on the executive functioning part of the brain, the thinking, the planning, the organizing, the how do I be a healthy adult. And basically what we've done is we've disrupted both of those naturally occurring developmental processes by taking technology and specifically taking an algorithm and inserting it into a process

of development. And so we no longer have nature versus nurture anymore, right? This is Jodi, this is nature versus nurture versus the numerics, which is the ways that happen that algorithms influence our development. And that's not a conversation we have had yet. The algorithm is heavy breathing. I hear I'm right there with you sister. You know, again, I think about the magnitude, right. Of, you know, what we've got ourselves into. And I think we're on the heels of this again, making this mistake very quickly with AI. Not because it's not a beautiful thing, but I think we're implementing so many changes that we don't even understand the ramifications of. And so it's so sexy.

And so algorithms to date has been Joy Bulawami, who is like unmasking AI. She's just blown me away. She's Canadian. Is talking about, you know, we are basing, many organizations, schools are basing these algorithms or AI generated approaches to hiring, to firing, to creating curriculum based on algorithms that appear to be working so well, but nobody has slowed down long enough to say, do firing, to creating curriculum, um, based on algorithms that appear to be working so well, but nobody has slowed down long enough to say, do you know

where they were created by white, straight men. And we are missing so many things in, you know, this very racist, marginalized world that we're sort of in that we're fighting so hard to be against that now we're trying to automate so much of these things because it's making it easier. Yes. It will execute a, you know, easier hiring and firing practices. We can get through our, you know, our healthcare notes easier if we can automate these things. It can just combine those things and gather the data. And, you know, Joy's, Dr. Joy's, you know, caution in so many of this is that yes, there's so much good we can use this for as technology, smartphones, all of those things can be used so much for, but pump the brakes because we're, we're on the precipice of a loneliness epidemic and a mental health crash. We've already seen this happen. So why can't we,

and we're having such pushback, right? I, and I don't know what you think about this, but like when people say to me, what do we do about smartphones in schools? I'm like, you fucking say, no, you don't need a phone in a classroom. What, why is this even a fucking conversation? Well, because it's against their rights. No, it's not. No, it is absolutely not. If you need to access somebody on the grounds of it, well, they need to do their work on it. No, they don't. Because if I try, this is the problem that we're doing with humans, right? If I have a Chromebook and my apps are open in the background, my ability to stay connected to you or to do my work is thwarted because I'm not that good to try to stay away from

the distraction of a Snapchat message or a beep on my phone. I mean, as I'm doing this, Jake, I left my watch on, which was the biggest mistake I always make. Because what happens is I'm so enthralled in this conversation, but I just left my watch on, which was the biggest mistake I always make. Because what happens is I'm so enthralled in this, in this conversation, but I just heard my watch buzz. I felt it. Okay. Now I'm 60% on you and I'm 40% on, could that be my dad? I know he's with my husband. Do you think he's okay? Is that one of the kids, right? Which again, you think about this, our one generation ago had no access to any of that. And our kids have never had this much access to us. My parents, our parents have never had this much access to us. So in this, in this world where we're trying to rewrite a set of rules that was

established for a world that no longer exists, we have never been this heavy and this exhausted. It's on us to make the kids okay. And the focus, absolutely. We need to, I mean, a 40 hour work week is asinine. That's the rules that we're playing by, but we never, ever get away from our clients. Your patients can find you at any point. So can mine. I can set all the boundaries and the rules and the things that I want, but social media hasn't been accounted for in our restricted or restrictive. I was going to say a restrict. I meant to say our registering bodies, but there's no understanding of what we deal with. I think because there's no set of rules. We've got to play by that. You know, you set your boundaries. Your office time is from nine to four. Everybody makes a lot of sense. I got it, but we're not accounting for the fact that there's

social media availability now that if I'm going to promote my business, make sure that I provide mental health resources and I'm ethically responsibly, I should be doing in this age. Then what? Then I get an email at 3am. Then I get, okay, what's your responsibility not to look at it? Holy fuck. Okay, good. But we've got to build those practices in and we're not capable as humans to be able to monitor those things because we've got no script for it yet. Hey everyone, we all know how draining cold and flu season can be. Waiting rooms, missed appointments, and that worry about whether a fever is something serious. But there is a better way. Maple gives you access to Canadian doctors and nurse practitioners in minutes, right from your phone.

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Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. What worries you the most? What gives you the most hope in this space? Because I think everybody is like, kids these days are fucked. And I completely disagree. People with base, just based on the work that I do

and the information I share, people may assume that I'm, um, you know, I'm not hopeful. Um, but I'm a, I'm a tech optimist. I really do think that we can figure out how we can use this stuff for good. And the thing that keeps me driving forward in this work is this really interesting paradox, right? That we are the most connected we've ever been and we're also the most disconnected at the exact same time. I'm fascinated by that. And I think this sort of rests on this idea that I have,

which is that we can't automate the human experience. We just can't. There's going to be no system, no technology that will be introduced into our life or lifestyle that will automate the human experience. And I think that is what keeps me doing this work, which is that all of these skills that we're losing or lacking or lagging in,

we're going to have to find ways of recapturing them and getting them back in our control. Otherwise, we hand them over to technology, right? And so that's what keeps me moving forward with young people. And, you know, despite, let's say skill deficits, or despite, you know, like big challenges that these generations experience, because again, we're also talking about Gen Alpha, which is the upcoming generation, really, right? And then Gen Beta, which is not born yet but they will also be recipients of this big big puzzle um there's a lot of research actually um that shows that and predicts that generation alpha will be the most private generation that we've ever seen okay even more

private than i freaking love that because i was watching this trend on social media now where they're creating spaces on purpose to leave their phones, to gather in situations where the ask of the group of friends is on their own, just let's meet without media. Let's meet without social media, not because it's a punishment, but because we need to reprieve like the forward thinking already that I see happening by, I think the, the support of your work of people who sort of are ahead of the game, Jonathan Haidt, you know, the things that we do on the road all the time, talking about the importance of big people. It's like, I think what's so critical is that they're watching how this is happening and sharing the data, having these conversations. They're

like, okay, they're these middle schoolers, um, these adolescents. I mean, my son thinks about this all the time. He's like, mom, we, we need limits. We need rules around this. Right. And I'm so fucking tired that I'm like, you know, it's okay. You just, you know, you can use that because it's quiet. Jodi, I, I get, I get kids, 10 year old kids coming into my practice saying I needed to teach my parents how to put screen time rules in place. I get 12old kids coming into my practice saying, I need you to teach my parents how to put screen time rules in place. I get 12th graders coming into my practice saying, guess what?

I got rid of Snapchat and I aced my math test. I have 12th graders coming in saying, look at my dumb phone. Look at this thing that doesn't have any data and no front-facing camera. They're so happy. They're so happy to not have to participate in this, this disastrous gift that we gave them. And we're so scared to set those limits because there's going to be pushback and it doesn't mean it's not right. And I think there's such a fine line. Okay. Because I said this to Asher the other day, who's going to be 14 in August. This is our

babe and he doesn't have a phone yet. And, um, mostly because he's like his sister, who's 11, has been much more like, Hey, I need the snap face and I need this and I need like, can I, I'm not cool if. Oh, the marketing is incredible. They know the marketing plan for how to get it. And he's an Ash. Asher is more like, okay, so just a second. Right.

So I read Jonathan's book and I'm like, dude, I'm the rules now are you can't have a cell phone until you're 16. And he's like, mom. And I said, listen, you can get a flip phone. He's like, okay, if you want me to live at home till I'm 40, you can get me a flip phone. And I'm like, you're so fucking brilliant. And he's like, you know, you can set limits on all of that, mom. I will show you the phone every night. I don't have to access social media. What I want it for is the appearance of me being able to be connected to my friends. So what I love about this is like,

it is going to be the negotiation with our children, with the parents of the children that our people are hanging out with to the best of our abilities to be able to navigate that. And I think every kid is different. I mean, I always worry a little bit about like 16 is the age, 14 is the age, 17 is the age. I think what I often encourage parents to do is you got to know your babe. You really got to know. And like I gave our daughter a couple of chances at Snapchat and it was a fucking disaster. That's on me. So the deal is I'm sorry. No, no, no, you can't. Well, Asher has it. And here's the track record, right? Ash has these three friends on there. I check it all the time. We've tried this a couple of times. Your brain is

a little bit little, two years younger than your brother. We gave it a shot. I didn't, I'm new here. I didn't know that this is how it was going to turn out. And neither did you, right? I've never had an 11 year old daughter before. How am I doing? like not very good i'm like 10 4 i feel the same got it right but it's like we're growing up with them in this space which is not unlike any other generation that's preceded us it just feels more important more problematic carries much more danger in this era would you say that what do you what do you do definitely definitely you know i think that many parents also feel this other other pressure which is like the horse the horse is already out of the barn like they already have full access to the the apps the devices they already have you know

all this screen time how do i bring it all back and the truth is right like when you get new information and when you get new parenting skills you rewrote the plane right you can change the destination that you're traveling when you have new information skills, you rewrote the plane, right? You can change the destination that you're traveling when you have new information, right? And we guide parents to do that all the time with anything, any decision that they make, right? If there's a disaster in your midst, like you need to move your approach, right?

You need to change up what you're doing. And so I always give parents permission to say like, you know, today you say this, but tomorrow you can also change your mind as well. And I feel like parents love that permission. But the truth is, and to your earlier point, like when you give a young person, specifically in middle school, when you give middle school students access to a smartphone, it's like giving them a plane ticket to fly anywhere in the world. Right. And if you wouldn't let your kid do that, if you like you said, if you don't if you know your kid and you know you wouldn't let them do that then why are we doing that with smartphones in their hands and so my general rule of thumb is i think kids are ready for access to a smartphone or even access

to screen time via like an ipad when you feel like they have a good handle on their stress and the relationships if they can manage their stress if they can manage their relationships then i think all systems are go to try it out and to see if that can be the training wheels. But the truth is many kids don't actually sort that out confidently till about end of middle school, beginning of high school. And they're supposed to fuck it up. So it's also not a mistake then, right? If they, you know, and I'll give you an example, right? Where, you know, we get in this Snapchat group and somebody leaves somebody out and we're, you know, saying horrific things to each other. And I hear tears and crying and like, this happened, mom. And I said this and this happened.

Okay. So this is evidence to me that we're not ready for this. And it's so interesting because in the moment it's so overwhelming. It's like, okay, yeah, you're right. You're right. You're right. And then two weeks later, do you think I'm ready now? And that becomes this sort of question. No, babe, I do not. Right. And it's like, well, this one has it and this one has it and this one has it. And I'm like, that's okay. Right. Everybody's house is different. Everybody's parent thinks differently. And I think it's that social pressure of, can you cut back? Um, can you pull, put the horse back in the barn? And I think to your point, you know, we thought smoking was good once. We smoked on planes once. Like we allowed all of these things to happen when we were like,

we got more data and we're like, holy fuck. Like we have went from zero to 60 in this technological space because the advancement has been so beautiful in so many things. I mean, we can now cure cancer. We can now navigate this world globally so much easier. We can have access to different experiences. And technology isn't the problem. It's how we use it that is the issue. And let me remind us, and I'm speaking to myself in this moment, we're in charge here. What we need to be able to navigate is their distress, their disappointment. And we don't know this space enough because when we say, no, baby, you can't run across traffic. And they're like, oh, I hate you. You're like,

I know. I know it's really tricky. But when we say screen time's over for today, or you know what, we're going to take the weekend without screens. What? I hate you. This is over. If I liken it to letting them run in traffic, right? This is equally as dangerous because to, to, to hate point. And I really love this. You know, we overprotect our kids in person and we under protect them online. If I were to say to you, would you ever allow your kid who's 14 or 13 or 11 or 21 to watch somebody be beheaded. I cannot think of a single parent to be like, yes, I would. You know, they need to see this shit, man. They need to know what the world is like. Generally speaking, we're like, no. So your brain, right. Who has access to their social media can see that in this moment. One of my questions to you is around sexual intimacy, the access to

pornography, the understanding of creating intimate relationships now, and the easy access that if you have access to social media, you have access to porn. How do you think that is going to affect or is currently affecting the development of intimate relationships, how you engage with each other? Ask that first question out, you know, the, the, this is going to be like too much, but like leading with dick pics, like I can't even fucking tell you right now, like there's no script on how to build a relationship

like this. And we don't know how to say to our, our children, like, Hey, probably the first opening line shouldn't be a picture of your penis because we, we don't know. I didn't send pictures of my penis on the MSN chat. Well, I don't have a penis, but you know what I mean? We didn't open with that. And so we don't know that we're supposed to say those things to our kids. Like, how do you navigate that? Do you see that as becoming a big issue as people are trying to sort of engage in that step in mid-school, in this sort of pre-teen, teenage teenage adolescence period where we're trying to build

relationships and fall in love and figure that intimacy out. Yeah, there's a lot of social wobblies, right, that are happening and maybe in new forms as well. I think I tend to zoom out, not just to talk about the changing sexual scripts, although of course we can see that there are many really distinct changes there. I would say that a bigger question that's kind of on my mind is in terms of that social health piece, anytime we introduce an algorithm into social development, it leaves me with this other question, which is where are the adults? Who's in charge here? Where are the editors? Where are the managers? Who's going to actually construct and structure this environment? And unfortunately, an algorithm really is designed to capture our focus. And so that's where it does. It brings us to these really dark corners of the

internet, whether that's for like selling drugs or, you know, beheading videos or porn, all the dark corners of the internet get their time, right? They get themselves in the spotlight. And there's some, a bit of industry rumors that the algorithms turn up after 10 o'clock. And so I would love to see a new norm among the parent community, which is that digital dark is 10 p.m. I think that that is when screens should be off, especially for young kids. And so, yeah, it's this bigger question that I think about is like, who's in charge? I mean, when we let an algorithm become in charge, we shouldn't be shocked that it brings kids to really dark places and therefore changes how they relate, how they connect, how they think,

how they feel, how they human with each other. Okay. And you know, when you, when you get into a school, when you get to sit with a bunch of kids, you know, what's your big message? What, how do you, where do you start? How do you navigate them? You know, this conversation with them. The first thing I do is I love to just take a poll and just to sort of say, where are we at? There's a lot of big ideas. There's a lot of, a lot of information out here, right? Sometimes it can feel like drinking out of a fire hose. And usually I see kids into two camps. I see kids as overload or underload. I see the kids who are really flat and prickly. And then I see the kids who are really like spiky and hot. And I find that when I kind of just take a little bit of a poll of like, where are we

at? You see the spectrum. So you see the full spectrum of kind of where kids are at. There's a lot of anger. There's a lot of sadness. There's a lot of grief. There's a lot of fear. And when we kind of pop open the hood, we can sort of start to see, and this is where I start to normalize for kids, is that there are three ways that social media or

algorithms like really affect us. And that's in the area of attention and distraction. That's social and disconnection, and stress and distress. So distraction, distress and disconnection. And we know that if those things permeate into a school into a group into a community it really just changes our ability to connect with each other and relate with each other and no one disagrees with that no one disagrees that algorithms have this really strong ability to disconnect us to distract us and to send us into cycles of distress and what is an? I know this is like ridiculous, but like, can you define that for me?

Cause I'm just thinking like, as people are listening to this, what's an algorithm? I think about screen use as two types. There is active use and passive use. Active use is when we are making choices on an app with our screens. Anytime we are not making our choice, but we're still behaving in ways

that we typically wouldn't, that is usually when an algorithm is making the choices for us. Like scrolling. That's right. So when an algorithm is taking our attention, it really is there to keep our eyeballs on the page so that these companies can make money. And so when an algorithm is taking our attention away from us,

taking our choice away from us, we call that passive screen use. And so again, that could be even Netflix, right? That could be just like letting the autoplay at the end of YouTube take over. That could be the bottomless scroll on Instagram. That could also be TikTok for its very powerful algorithm, this ability to like really capture our focus really quickly and then keep us in this cycle or this rabbit hole of scrolling. And so anytime our choice is removed, that's likely when an algorithm is taken. Okay, got it. And an algorithm is sort of based on, it gets very smart in this world of technological advances

to sort of know what you like because it watches this a little bit. And it sounds like an entity. It isn't. It's a very scientific formula that is sort of doing this. There's no people behind there going these things. But it will keep me activated if it's going to show me things about whatever I'm interested today. Right. Trauma, hockey, um, you know, running, whatever I've sort of been scrolling, like, um, tapping on wanting more information. If it showed me about like car engines,

I would put my phone down immediately because I'm not fucking interested in the car engine in this moment. Right. Or cat videos. But if that's your thing, those things keep popping up. And so we've really articulated, not articulated, we've really sort of established the way in which we can keep kids engaged. Cause it's like, have you seen this? Did you see this? Did you see this? And that's how things go viral is when you sort of understand that many people think this is funny or many people think this is outrageous or many people think this is outrageous or many people need to hear this message because it's so pointed and um yes is that is that how virality works that's what people are looking well they're they're the social validation features which are

on the side of the screen typically so this is the likes the comments the shares so you see numbers right you see data and metrics that say this is how popular it is in a very hard cut and fast dry way, right? This is popular. And then it also relies on an exploitation of our social instincts, right? So we have this fear of missing out and this sort of sense of like, if I'm not in on the trend or the videos from last night on TikTok, then I'm not going to have enough to talk about tomorrow at school, or I'm not going to be able to be in on the joke when people are sharing

it in Snapchat or talking about it in the group chat. And so again, it exploits that social part of us that wants to belong and wants to be part of the joke part of they want, we want to be in the in-group, right? And it does that as a way, very fast way. This all happens so fast. And so being alive today, especially as a young person, the social landscape has shifted online. And for many kids, it's like drinking out of a fire hose, which means that they're consuming a lot of garbage content and have no memory of it.

They don't remember a lot of what they consume unless it's that like really viral hit that they want to share or want to kind of pass along. And so it becomes a little bit like social currency in a way. And And so unfortunately it's a little bit like being rich in, like being rich in monopoly money, not actual like real connection, right. That we want kids to use to connect. Wow. And, and so what do you leave them with? What are some of the pieces that you then sort of ground either the parents you work with, the kids you work with these days about, okay, so here's the problem. And I love this. You know, you're so good at laying this out. This is, this is a scary time for so many people in so many ways, because we don't

have a script for it. Where are you landing with them on? Okay. So what do we do now? I usually say the winners of this generation are going to have the following characteristics. I think the most successful, I also think, you know, the healthiest. And I also think, quite frankly, just the richest because kids respond to that as well. I think the winners of this generation are going to be the ones that own their attention in adulthood. They're going to be the ones that are not being consumed by an algorithm. They're going to be the generation of adults who don't have their information and their privacy and their attention given over to a

company. And unfortunately, that it just is the really scary landscape that we're in right now for many parents because they don't know what that actually means. And the easiest way to say it is that social media litigation is the next tobacco litigation, which means that we are in this process of litigation with these companies so that they, their algorithms do not steal the attention from our young kids and their developing brains. And when kids know that, I feel like they feel a sense of empowerment to say, yes, you're right. I, I need to get more control over my decision-making, my motivation, my stress management system, my social engagement system. And the way that I talk about that is by just talking hard and fast about brain development. The brain develops from the bottom to the top and the back to the front.

And we need to spend more time in the top of our brain to grow. And when an algorithm pulls our attention, it pulls us to the bottom of our brainstem and leaves us very vulnerable to things like being in survival mode and attention, distraction and distress. And kids want to spend more time in the top and front of their brain. And I find that the next question is because I get lineups of kids when I'm speaking on an assembly, kids come up and say, okay, how, how, how, how? And it's funny because I turn to the teachers and I say, okay, that's, I just gave the one-on-one, but now we need the two-one. They want the two-one. And so kids want strategies for being in a top in front of their brain. And this is generally what I leave them with, which is that when you feel like you are your best self,

when you feel like, you know, above all else, you feel like you can connect with something outside of yourself, whether that's a hobby and interest, whether that's a person or even a goal that you have, that is when you're spending enough time in the top and the front of your brain. I love that. And I, and I was just thinking about my own kids, you know, when you were saying that I've never had that conversation, although we speak around it all the time, right? You know, Evan is our hockey guy and he sees lots of, you know, he'll show me everything about like, did you see this video? Did you see this guy? And Asher's our real big, like historical buff, like he wants the facts and the science behind everything. And so he's like, did you know that in this river, you know, like, and so he's learning the things and Liv just wants me like Sephora and Taylor Swift.

That's how we got. So if I were to pull the algorithms on all the three things, like, you know, I can tell you which kid has been watching. I don't know. I don't even need to know which device I'm on. I can tell you. Okay. And I think drawing their attention to that, to your point is so powerful, right? Do you know, this is how it sucks you in? And how about as a family, it's just externalizing anxiety, externalizing an emotion, right? Like, let's, let's see if we can beat it back a little bit. Let's see if we can show it who's boss so that it doesn't actually keep us sucked in so much. And I just, I love that narrative. Like, would you encourage families to have that conversation together? Always. Absolutely. I think, you know,

we can't change what we don't talk about. We can't change what we don't talk about. Okay. For the kids in the back, you can't change what you don't talk about. And I think we, we are fearful sometimes as parents of being able to, to have these conversations because we don't want to rock the boat or we don't really know what we're talking about. Or quite frankly, we don't have the space and capacity to try to navigate this. We're just going to close our eyes and hope the fuck that our kids aren't the ones that are diving deep in some porn site or getting sexually trafficked or any of those things. And I, having those conversations with our kids are so interesting, you know, like, do you know that, you know, this is going to happen? And sometimes this is how we're, you know, predators are hanging

out. You know, we, we did a podcast earlier with, um, um, a police officer who worked for, um, seven years in ice. So the child exploitation unit, and, you know, just really talked a lot about how easy predators hang out in places like Roblox and, you know, the chat rooms in, you know, Fortnite and all of these places, because that's how you engage in this connection piece. And like, Hey, let me know this about you. Let me know this about you. And I'd love to know that we're looking for connection. So the knowledge is power. Watch for that, right? We got to be careful of, you know, you need to belong and connect, but I also need you to know that a lot of people who are, you know,

aren't who they say they are, are also very present here. So let's keep having these of how can I get ahead of the disaster? And how can I get ahead of the catastrophe that could happen if it goes unchecked? And the first place I start is, you know, you're here and I'm so glad you're here. You're in the right place. And I find that that is like often that entryway and that portal into doing things differently. Yeah. And, and I think too, the, the idea about encouraging those conversations are important. You know, I am so ignorant in the world of vaping. I'm so ignorant to things like, you know, marijuana use and drug use. And like, what's the difference between like, fuck, I don't know. I'm going to make this up, but like heroin and oxy, like, I mean, but what's

fascinating is like, ask your kids about this. And we're so scared that if we start to ask about, you know, drug use, vaping, um, screen time, you know, chat rooms, who you befriended, um, that we're going to open up a can of worms or appear to condone it. And, and this is scary, right? Knowledge is power. So tell me more is the three words that I often sort of get parents to use or people to use with their kids when they're like, this is the coolest thing I've ever seen. Tell me more. Right? When you're just like, no, it's fucking not. No, no, no, no, no. Vaping is not what we're never talking about it. This is not an issue. This does not happen in our house. And I think it's like, gosh, when you ask those

questions, they are a wealth of knowledge and they know so much more than we do in this space i love it it's so so good another one that i usually use often is i notice that dot dot dot you know i just sort of float around some observations and some noticings and just say huh i noticed that you spend a lot of time on snapchat What's in there? Can you show me how that works? Why do you spend so much time there? Like what is a chat room? And when you start to use their terminology, like Jesus,

the other day, yesterday I was driving some kids to lacrosse and the best place still, I promise you this, parents is hanging out with your children in a car because it gives you an opportunity for proximity. And generally speaking, if you're taking them to a sporting activity or to a, the mall, they think you're deaf. And suddenly you're in the front seat and you, you've lost hearing and you get such incredible intel. And we went through a list of words that the children these days are using, right? Which

I was not aware of. Riz is apparently something very important. Mom, do you have Riz? And I was like, what the fuck? I don't understand that. And I, of course, I was like, yeah, I do. And I don't even know what I got there. And they're like, aha. I was like, what is Riz?

It's charisma, okay? You're the Rizzler. Mom, are you the Rizzler? I'm like, fucking right, I'm the Rizzler. I got more Riz than you've ever, like you should have seen me in my day, you know? But it's's like and then giat is another word that they're telling me about which apparently means bum and i don't i don't like look at that yeah i'm like what do you mean yeah jesus but it's like we went through this too i don't really remember what it was that we talked about i mean

maybe like michael jackson had a white glove that was i don't it's got to be we had to be cooler than that but i don't remember you know these, but it is this sense of like, how do you connect to each other? Furries, you know, kids wearing cat ears or acting like animals. Like, you know, people are like, that's weird. I'm like, I don't know. Like we, we really just want a sense of identity. And, you know, we've talked a little bit about, you know, the LGBTQ to a plus space when we're talking about how come there's so many letters, fuck people just want to be seen. What is this issue with pronouns? If you don't understand the use of pronouns, you don't have to support it or even understand it, but you're old. If you're not on board, uh, the pronoun bus, because what people are saying is see me, understand me, know

me, know me that I, I I'm trying to understand what's happening in my own system. And this is how I feel in this moment. Okay. They, them is, is where we're at. Tell me more. What, what does that mean to you? I, I, I, I love this, this big conversation. Um, I'm all about having big conversations. I mean, I love small talks, but sometimes I get uncomfortable by it. So I love big talk and I love just being able to talk about these really big ideas with you, Jodi. And in this space, I mean, I know for you, you've lived this so much. I mean, and you specialize, we've talked about this and kids who feel like they're grappling, particularly all kids are grappling with their identity, let's be clear.

But in how they identify and how they show up in the world and, and, you know, what their sexual identity looks like, but just, there's such a big difference between sexual identity and how you feel like you show up in the world and what body you're in. And people get these things fucked up all the time. Yeah. I had a beautiful trends, um, man, uh, on, uh, and he's written such beautiful things. He's a Torontarian as well. Just explaining to me, you know, the difference between lesbian, gay, and then that, that trans humans, it's not about sexual orientation. It's about how do I feel in my body? Right. And there's so much ignorance in this space. Would you say as, as kids are trying to figure this out, there's not a lot

of safety in sort of having those conversations because we're scared we're going to make them gay. I think so. Do you see this? I think so. Yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah, yeah. I think, and I just see our work in the caring profession as helping kids know themselves better. And any attempt that we can do that, regardless of what the label is what the diagnosis is what the you know the pronouns are i we're in the business of helping people know themselves better so that we can also know each other better as well and to me that's what's

valuable oh my gosh and why is that valuable when you know yourself what happens it's life-changing right it it saves, it, it saves lives also. It can save lives, save lives when you, all your insides match your outsides, right? When all your insides match your world and you say, yes, I fit. I feel like I belong here and I feel safe. I feel known. I feel valued. I feel loved and I feel human. And right. It's, It's access to that emotional regulation space. If you feel like nobody gets you or understands you, it's very hard to be healthy. And especially being left alone with our emotions and being left alone with that experience. Ostracized in a family system because you feel a certain way or you identify in a certain way. I think what's critical in this space,

right, is that the necessity to condone it is not the same as understanding. The definition of empathy, you know, is suspending judgment even temporarily to try to get what it must be like to be another person. And as therapists, we use empathy all the time because I can tell you, when I worked on an inpatient unit, I've never had schizophrenia, but I can have so much empathy for somebody who is trying to navigate this world where their head is a mess. I've never, um, had to bury a baby, but I can tell you that I can sit with people who have lost their children all day long. Right. I worked at the children's hospital and never had children. You can say I'm an uncle. People would say this to me all the time. How can you work with kids when you don't have kids?

You know what's important to me is yours. And I want to understand what it's like as a parent, as a grandparent, as an auntie, as an uncle for you in this moment. And I think this is the power. You don't have to have been a parent before. You don't have a script for so many of those things in this world, but what connects us all is this emotional need to be seen, to be known. And when we can provide that for our son's best friend, for our nephew, for the kid we coach on a hockey team. It requires a village because we're, we typically, this is why I think our job as therapists is so holy is we can do that for other people's children often so much better than when we have skin in the game, right?

This is the benefit of therapy and your work that I love because historically I've said so much, you know, I really want to see the parents. Kids are fine, but more and more these days, kids need places to put it too. And Jake, what you've developed, I think in your practice in this, you know, what you speak on stages about is really how do you create spaces for kids to be able to sort of name it. And when you name it, you tame it. Right. And I just think that, you know, your work is phenomenal. You're just getting started. I'm so grateful. I get a front row seat to watch you blow up this work. Cause I think I'm waiting for the book. I'm waiting for the, all the things. And, and I love people to sort of find you and

follow you. How, where's the best place to find more about you and your work? People can find me online at MSW Jake. That's where I hang out. That's where I create. That's where I write. That's where I show up online as my most authentic self. Amazing. And book deals. This is, we got to talk about this world. I'm going to put this out there. This guy needs all of these thoughts down into a book so we can all read it. But in the meantime, Jake, I just look forward to our next conversation already. I cannot wait for our next date in Toronto. And I'm just so amazed at what you're doing,

how kids are not only changing their lives, you're saving them every day just by showing up in that beautiful practice of yours. And thanks. Thanks for sharing all of this wisdom with this beautiful community today. Oh, Jodi, back at you, sister. I'm so happy to know you. I'm grateful that we had the chance to connect and then have this conversation. Thanks for having me. You're welcome. Friends, take care of each other. Take care of yourself, most importantly. And I can't wait to meet you right back here again next week.

The Everyone Comes From Somewhere podcast is produced by the incredibly talented and handsome team at Snack Labs. Mr. Brian Seaver, Mr. Taylor McGilvery, and the infamous Jeremy Saunders. The soundtracks that you hear at the beginning of every episode were created by Donovan Morgan. Our executive producer is Marty Piller. Our PR big shooters are Des Veneau and Barry Cohen. Our agent, my manager,

Jeff Lowness from the Talent Bureau. And emotional support, of course, is provided by, relatively speaking, our children. For the record, I am a registered clinical psychologist in Alberta, Canada. The content created and produced in this show is not intended as specific therapeutic advice. The intention of this podcast is to provide information,

resources, education, and maybe even a little bit of hope. We'll see you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca.