Unlonely with Dr. Jody Carrington - Would you Have Them Over for Dinner?: Laura Seeley

Episode Date: October 12, 2023

Laura Seeley is an amazing woman who has worked in Canadian law enforcement for 16 years, the majority of which has been focused on internet child exploitation. She pretends to like hockey so people will like her BUT she definitely doesn't need to because she's the most loveable, bagpipe-playing, brilliant woman we are lucky enough to know.In this episode, Dr. Jody and Laura Seeley chat about internet safety for kids and families. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. Let's start here, where I think the answer begins for everything and everybody, in the place of acknowledgement. Indigenous peoples in this country have taught me the most about what acknowledgement truly means. So everything that I've created for you happened here on Treaty 7 land,

which is now known as the center part of the province of Alberta. It is home to the Blackfoot Confederacy, made up of the Siksika, the Kainai, the Pikani, the Tatina First Nation, the Stony Nakota First Nation, and the Métis Nation Region 3. It is always my honor, my privilege mostly, to raise my babies on this land where so much sacrifice was made. And to build a community, invite a community in, talk about hard things as we together learn and unlearn about the most important things, that we were never meant to do any of this alone. oh my fellow humans come back in i am so happy happy to be sitting with you again today. It's a cloudy day here in old Alberta, Canada, on Treaty 7 land.

But I got to tell you, I have a guest today that is going to make you think about a few things. You know, with young kids, what I think about all the time is internet safety. Actually, I don't think about internet safety fucking ever, because what I generally do is allow the children to use the internet, um, like at their free will. And it wasn't until I met this next guest and had extremely concerning conversations about my complete inadequacy as a parent, my incompetence around the internet that is infiltrating the minds of my children, that did I really think this community needs to learn from this amazing soul. So I, today, friends, I want you to meet my friend, one of my mentors, somebody that I just so very admire. Her name is Laura Seeley, and she has worked in Canadian law enforcement for 16 years, the majority of which has been focused on Internet child exploitation.

She has led some major investigations, investigations in our country. Her wisdom about safety, connection, people, given her career of working with some of the people who struggle the most in this country, never ceases to amaze me. She is a hero that she would never say she is, but to me, she certainly is. And I know today she's going to bring you a whole lot of information. Everybody, welcome Laura Seely. Last track, last track. Hi, Laura Seely. Hello. Come on in. Oh, my gosh.

Okay, I am so grateful that you would take the time to sit with us today. And I want to tell you, I start this podcast the same way every day. It says, especially when I have guests, because I always like to start it with the same question every single time. And this is a podcast about where you came from. And I know to the core of me that we are all way more alike than we are different. And maybe most importantly, the difference between empathy and judgment often lies in understanding where we are different. And maybe most importantly, the difference between empathy and judgment often lies in understanding where we come from. So tell me, Laura Seeley, where would we start with you? Where have you came from? I guess I would start with, I'm from Belleville, Ontario, little town in central Ontario. So, so actually it's not central Ontario at all. It's

southeastern Ontario, nowhere near central Ontario. It moved. It moved. Yep. It did. Um, yeah. Born and raised. Um, both of my parents are born and raised there as well, but I think their parents were also born and raised there. Like we're like, yeah, like my grandparents, my grandparents, grandparents were probably loyalists. Like we're like, I'm like fifth, sixth generation Canadian. Wow. Yes. And what was that like growing up in that town?

Tell me about that story. That was great. I mean, at the time, I think like everybody else, you don't appreciate your hometown maybe when you're growing up in it. It seems small. It seems like you know everybody. It seems like there's nothing to do. But, oh, I'm going to regret saying this.

But I got into something that nobody else in my friend group was in at a very young age. I started playing bagpipes when I was nine. Stop! I know I'm going to regret this. I started playing bagpipes when I was nine. Stop! I know I'm going to regret this. I did not know that about you. Stop. You play the bagpipes? Yes.

What? Did you know that, Marty? Son of a bitch. I know. I know. And now you're in Nova Scotia. Like, do you have a full-time job playing bagpipes?

No, I wish. If I was 20 years younger, that's exactly what I would be doing. That's what I wanted to do as a profession. Yeah. Stop. I know. So is there a Scottish heritage in your... Maybe like way back, like on my dad's mom's side way back.

Yeah, there's some Scottish there. But no, I was... How does a kid decide? Oh, this is the story that my mom tells everybody. When I was five years old, we were watching a Santa Claus parade and a pipe band merged by playing bagpipes. And I was like, what? What is that sound? That is the best sound I have ever heard in my life. No. what what is that sound that is the best sound I have ever heard in my life no my mom's like well that's the bagpipes and it's not the best sound that you'll ever hear and I was like it really is I just I couldn't get enough of it and from five years old to nine years old I begged my parents to let me play bagpipes. Wow. And my mom was like, how about like piano?

Or like guitar, violin even. Like something a little more mainstream. No, give me the bagpipes. And so I joined like a legion band full of old, drunk Scottish men. Stop. And you were just in there blowing your horn. Full of hot of hot air filling up that bag my gosh

that is stunning so okay so how does this evolve then we have this smart young very interested in the bagpipes human being who navigates through her childhood in Bellevue view. You have you have one brother. Yes. Yep. A younger brother. Younger brother. Come from this intact, lovely family. At one point, do you decide that law enforcement is your calling? How did how does that evolve? Um, I think it was always kind of part of me. I'm a very natural protector. And I always have been like I was the kid on the school ground that if somebody fell off the monkey bars, I would run, you know, to help them and then get a teacher to help them. I I've always stood up kind of for the underdog. I've always just wanted to help and protect. And I went to university,

did an undergrad, ended up getting in kind of like the law enforcement field. I was in probation and parole for a bit. I went back to school, then got back into probation. And after I did grad school, I was like, you know what, like sitting behind a desk isn't something that I'm interested in. I really want to be out there connecting with people still in that law enforcement field. It just made it just honestly was just very natural. It just made sense. So I finally did when I was 27 years old. I joined.

Yeah. At 27. All right. Can you tell me? I mean, we have a lot of people in this community who are involved in law enforcement, first responders, as you know, I have a massive place in my heart for people who serve the most dysregulated amongst us. And I, particularly women. And I want to know in those early years, uh, you know, what, what that was like for you?

How, how did that shape you? How did that influence you? Tell me some of those stories. It wasn't easy. I see. Even when I ask you that question, I can see that. I can see the shift in your eyes. I can see the arms cross. I can see the, like, that was a tough chapter, I can imagine, right? Yes.

It was. Yes. Yeah. like that was a tough chapter I can imagine right it was yes um yeah so in in the first detachment that I worked in um and I don't want this this is not a reflection of all law enforcement um of all men in law enforcement at all um but very specific to my experience the very first detachment I worked in, there were some problems at the time. Um, and there was some nonsense happening that you would consider very typical of what you would think of in terms of like sexual harassment, uh, in law enforcement. Um, and that, that happened, there was some stuff happening within my first year of service. And, um, and it was, uh, it was, wasn't even eye opening. Like it

was, I guess I didn't expect it. My, my expectations of joining a police force and being part of a brotherhood and the camaraderie that goes along with it were up here. And very specific to that detachment that I was in at the time, the reality was down here. And so. I, I, man, I struggled. I really struggled. Oh, no doubt. And how did you I mean, so a couple of questions, first of all, like, do you, do you feel like in, in your experience, you know, now in 16 years being surrounded by other women, do you think this is a common experience that, you know, a lot of people don't necessarily know about, you know, just, especially as we've, you know, over the years, these last two generations really attempted to transition. But I, you know, if we take us back almost 20 years, I can't imagine that would have been fucking hard. Yeah. I would say it's very common. I'd say a lot of us have similar experiences. Wow. And it's not, you know, I'm not talking about like being held down and sexually assaulted by the people I work with. Like that's, that's not, it's, it's a lot more subtle than that. So you actually don't realize it's happening at first because you're like this, what do you mean? These are my peers.

This isn't my boss. This would never happen with the people that I work with, my backup, that I backup, right? Yeah. So, and to that point, I would say, I would say a lot of my male colleagues probably don't know it's happening as much as it is either because it is so subtle. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And I mean, I just had somebody on the podcast lately where we talked about microaggressions and she had this beautiful term really that it's, you know, there's nothing small about them. And it's like, it really is about the cumulative effect of, you know, what happens in this place where people, you know, what happens in this place where people,

you know, maybe even don't intend or think that it's acceptable behavior or, you know, maybe to the core of them sort of know, but there is like, that's just the way it's always been done. And I think never, ever appreciating, and maybe I can't speak for everybody, but the damage that that can do to a, like a confidence, a psyche, a self-esteem, a, an ability to, to, to even want to show up. I mean, how, how did you persevere? Like when you look back now and you think about that girl, you know, who, you know, young, single, you know, had all of these expectations of what it meant to serve, uh, protect and serve, if you will. Um, I hear that story so often in, you know, the police officers that I get to see in my office,

like where they say things like, fuck, at one point I had, I was such a, I had so much passion for this job. And it just, it not only snuffed out by the people we serve, but certainly the people who are exhausted and tired and uncared for and assholery-ish within the

organization sometimes. Yes, yes, absolutely. I would say I've had like, you know, ups and downs in terms of passion. Like I started extremely passionate and then it really wasn't long after that route. I lost that. Like my first posting, I was there for four years and I'd say the first two years I was fighting it because I was like, there's no way that this can be a thing. This is like, this isn't happening. And I felt crazy. And then the second two years I was just surviving. I wasn't doing my best work. I wasn't being the best person that I can be. And if I hadn't been transferred at that time, I would have quit.

I would have quit policing altogether. Yeah. I had, I drew my line in the sand and, and just that wasn't the universe's plan for me. So I got transferred to a different detachment, different province, different province.

And, and, and then that detachment was better. And, um, but then there were still instances. And I think, I really do think that I think I'm the type of person, whether it's because of where I grew up or how I grew up or I was born with certain um affinities um it could have been my parents influence whatever it is like my life has led me down a certain path that has allowed me to overcome these instances and they almost fuel me to to implement change to affect change yeah yeah there's such a determination there I hear you say like that you know and I often worry about this for women sometimes where we're like okay you know you can actually just put up with it or deal with it because there is a greater good at the end of the day. And I feel like, do you feel

like you've been able to implement, uh, have a voice for women to, um, you know, use those experiences or do you think that they've, I mean, seriously, when we reflect on it, right? Like when I think about the little I know about you, what you bring to an organization is massive, right? Do you feel as though you've been able to to subtly use what you know and shift that culture in any way? I think I'm starting to like now that I've got, you know, 16 years service and I've got a couple ranks under my belt so that gives me more street cred yeah yeah you know yeah yeah um and yeah I think it's not that I'm impacting you know the organization on a macro level at all, like not even a provincial level, not maybe not even a detachment level. But with every person, every individual person I talk

to, I feel like there's influence there. And they influence me and they influence me. 100%. And so what I just want to say about that real quick, because I think sometimes, particularly in this world of burnout that I talk about so often, you know, to organizations, not even just in the world of policing. But I think we look at the magnitude of issues that are against any of us, you know, particularly anybody who's experienced marginalization, you know, women included, particularly in male dominated professions. There is this sense of like the problem is fucking systemic and it's big and it gets overwhelming. And this is coupled with the fact, you see, that that we have changed so significantly in the last one generation. The the change in roles, the expectations of how people can show up is not nobody got a script for it, particularly the people usually at the, you know, leading in

organizations. And this is a stereotype, a generalization, if you will, because I've met many police officers in leadership positions who are phenomenal human beings. But when we think about the few, maybe the many, that tend to sort of set the precedent, it becomes really almost overwhelming and exhausting to think that there's ever any hope of changing an organization. And I think the thing that fuels me the most these days is really that this permission that I give myself all the time, I'm not that fucking good. I don't know who I think I am that I would have the ability to change an entire organization. My only task in front of me is to do the next best right kind thing, to be able to talk to the next police officer, to be able to sit down with you and talk about some of the investigations that you have led as a powerful woman. Some of the conversations, and we were talking a lot about, you know, child exploitation now. I mean, for seven years you served in child exploitation,

which is such a remarkable service to humanity. And I think about, okay, if I have a seat at the table with you, what are the opportunities that we can take to sort of shift? And a movement is never about a start from the top and fucking blow it up. Cause it, I mean that rarely, I mean, perhaps in history and a number of situations that's come to fruition,

we would see the end game as like, oh my God, that's what happened. It's about changing it one step by step and if i die when there's only been small shifts in this place that the movement has started we've collected a few and a few more and they collect a few more to start to shift a place and the only focus is to make this world of a safer more connected inclusive place then good night fucking fucking Irene. Because that's really, you know, seriously, the only reason we're fucking here. And so let's talk about that for a little

bit. I want to dive in a bit. I just did a workshop a while back now on, you know, the interweb, safety, exploitation, how easy it is for our kids. And I was fucking blown away. Okay. I, I've, as you know, I have three children, you know, our twins are 10 or this is 13. They spend a lot of time on the internet unsupervised. And I never intended it to be this way. It's so funny because when I had kids, I was like, watch me. I'm going to be so good. Nobody's going to have the iPads, whatever. My daughter's 10. She got access to a phone.

I mean, all of our kids have access to iPads, all the things. And the more you and I have talked about this and in this place, there's a few things that I've learned about how easy it is to access the accessibility to our children and that predators in particular are not dumb. They know where kids hang out and they very easily play on the vulnerabilities. And I'm, I'm blown away at, at the system in which you lived in so desperately, you know, in these number of years, tell me some of your biggest lessons. What are, what are some of the moments that sort of, you know, caught you off guard that blew you away? Um, you know, that, that maybe people don't even recognize. Can you, can you start there with me? Yeah. I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is is just how dangerous the world is.

And I know, like, I know, like, so I did child exploitation for seven years in a couple different capacities in a couple different units. And so that was all I was exposed to for seven years. So let's keep in mind that all I did was child exploitation for seven years. And so my view of the world might be a little skewed.

Right. And as a result, I don't have my own children. Yes, yes. So, but I was shocked with how rampant it is. Before the internet, if a predator or an offender or whatever wanted to, you know, offend against a child or groom a child or whatever the process looked like for that particular person. I mean, you'd have to do it in person. You would have to have access to children or there used to be, you know, clubs that you could join.

One was called NAMBLA, for example. Actually, it's probably still a thing, but because of the internet, you don't need NAMBLA. NAMBLA was called the North American Boy Love Association. They had a magazine. They made their association public by acting like all they wanted to do is support boys and support support fatherless boys and be mentors and and you know teach lessons and teach skills and blah

blah blah and all it was was a front for the sexual abuse of boys so but they're you would have like monthly meetings where you would go you know because you pay your your like dues your union dues or your nambla dues or whatever that's crazy yes and then you would go to your monthly meetings where you would sit in some kind of dark shady room with a bunch of other men and talk about you know abusing boys And it was the only way that they could network because offenders otherwise, and I'm talking about like very specific offenders. The offenders online is like,

there's a lot broader definition for online offenders because it's so accessible. But before the internet, like if you were an offender against a child, you did that by yourself. You needed a white van and a puppy. Yeah. And right. And like right. A candy is helpful. Yes, yes, yes. So I mean, or you were the uncle, you were the grandpa, you were the truly right. Because I think that's right. So the data, I think, is quite astounding in terms of sexual offenses in particular. I think the number is somewhere you might know this better than me, but like 85 percent of all people who get sexually assaulted, particularly children, know they're offenders.

And so I would say it's harder. Yeah. OK. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So it's like that that that was so true in in my generation. Right. And and now when I think about I often talk to parents about having such grace in this experience because we don't have a script for this. For the first time in history, our kids know more about this communication tool than we do. And so they have burner phones, they have apps that they know about that we've never heard about. They have privacy settings. And I talked a lot about this in this talk about like, you can get like Privy, for example, and it shows up on your phone as a calculator app. But inside there, that's where you're hiding all the videos and the photos and

all those things. And that's just one of a million apps that does that. So your parents find your calculator app that actually is hiding TikTok and Snapchat and whatever else you're using that you're not allowed to be using. Then you just download another one that does the exact same thing. Or you get a burner phone or you get a whatever, right? Like in this process. So if we could slow it down a little bit. So what is the, you know, when I talk a little bit about, you know, stalking to bullying to, you know, then, you know, somebody actually, you know, becoming a predator, seeking your children. There's all these sort of different levels in this game. And I know that what I want to know the most about, I guess, is in this place of that predatory space, what do our kids need to, as parents, what are some of the things we should

know about that not a lot of people are talking about? Just the ease of those chat rooms. What would you say? Where do we start? So I mean, for children, if you're parenting children, treat their online space like real life. So, for example, only allow, like if they're going to, if you're going to let them be on some sort of platform that has like followers or friends or whatever connection with other people, only monitor their friend list and only allow them to be friends with people that they know in person or that they would have over for dinner. Like that's like the bar. Like if you would have them over for dinner, okay, they're safe to have as a friend. Okay. Right. So like, you know, you and I are friends, but you might be friends with, you know, Samantha down, down the street, but I don't know, Samantha, I shouldn't, I shouldn't be friends with Samantha. Okay. Right. Even that one degree of separation. Yeah. Yeah. Because who knows what Samantha, who's Samantha's friends are. Cause as soon

as you become friends with somebody else that exposes you to all of their friends. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Right. It just turns into a spider web. So really only connect with people that you know in person. And I'm like, I know that the online world is very different because we have friends and followers that we've never met or that are on the other side of the planet or whatever. But we're talking about children here. Children don't need friends on the other side of the planet. Yeah. Right. Yes. Absolutely. Children do not need to connect with even though they might be in like a gymnastics community which predators would be prone to being involved in anyway because there's pictures of little girls and little boys in gymnastic outfits right so like only be friends

with people that you know in person that you would have over for dinner and I would say especially for the young kids if you're going to allow them to be on some sort of social media platform, don't allow them to use the chat function. Unless their profile is completely locked down and they're only chatting with people that they know in real life. Yeah. So what do you mean their profile is completely locked down? How do you how do you make sure that a kid's locked down? It depends. It depends on what platform they're on. Every platform has their own um settings their own parental controls um i don't actually use tiktok and i've been out of the

child exploitation world um long enough that i never had any files with tiktok but tiktok and snapchat are the two most common apps that are seen to be used right now. Yep. Yep. So TikTok has actually really, really good parental controls. So either you can, if you're not like monitoring your kid's phone, like you actually have your kid's phone in your hand and you're going through it, then you can have your phone connected to theirs and you can monitor their behavior on TikTok through your phone. However, TikTok was just fined in Europe like $500 million, well, the equivalent of $500 million Canadian dollars for not having strict enough parental controls

and not having enough security features that protect children. Really? They've changed. That's why they tend to be good now. However, it doesn't mean that it's safe. As long as you're online. There's inherent danger to being online because it can be so anonymous. Hey, everyone.

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And Peloton has everything you need, whenever you need it. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. Tell me a little bit about those chat functions, because I think, you know, what I'm so fascinated by is things like Chatroulette or Omegle, those things that I hadn't heard about before, that really just provide open access to anybody around the world. And the intention behind social media, obviously, is that it was intended to be social, to create a space, a virtual community, because of course, we're all wired for connection. The concern that I have so much that I didn't even know was a thing. And then I asked my 10 year old that she knew this was a thing and she did, which fucking blew me

away. But it's like things like, as I understand it, chat roulette, Omega, these kinds of things, you just get together. And Libby said, this is what I hear about is that when people like have sleepovers, they all get together and just go and chat roulette and see whose face or whose people they can meet. And so there's no faces on chat roulette or Omegle. Oh, dicks only. Dicks only. Jesus.

So you just click and then, you know, somebody is showing his penis or jacking off or doing whatever the deal is. So chat roulette isn't so much a thing anymore. It started as chat roulette. It evolved into Omegle. O-M-E-G-L-E. Okay. And just for example, I mean, I can tell a story about a file involving Omegle.

Yeah. Yeah. So we had a file. So, okay. Since, I guess for the past decade, any electronic service provider. So which would be all the platforms, all the social media platforms, Google, Yahoo, Instagram, Facebook, all of them, whatever, who have servers in the states who are based in the states have are required by law to report any child exploitation material to, they have a national center, um, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children in the States, which they do incredible work.

And so they've got these platforms report to them and then they farm out based on IP addresses, farm out where, um, offenders, um, offenses are happening. And so with the Canadian IP address comes to us. Okay. So we got a file from Omegle, which is weird because they don't report a lot. Like, yeah, they don't. Yeah, they're not great at reporting.

But so we got, and this, keep in mind, this is like three, four, three or four years ago now. We got a file from Omegle about a, and they, so they provide us the exploitation material. So we can watch it and say, yep, that qualifies as child exploitation. And it was a little girl, about eight years old, in her bedroom seemingly um like in front of like a laptop kind of thing dancing around um she starts off with some clothes and then the clothes come off and then she starts doing things while she was naked definitely looks like she's being like told what to do she's following some sort of instructions but there like, you could tell she was in her room. There wasn't anybody else in the room. So like the automatic assumption, even though we treated it as though somebody was in the room exploiting her, but the automatic assumption is that she's

connected with somebody online and they're telling her what to do. So we, you know, we wrote a warrant to get the subscriber information for the ip address we found the house we went and executed the warrant like we would on any other you know child exploitation search because you act like the offenders in the house okay because they usually are um and the little girl's there clearly it's the same little girl's there. Clearly, it's the same little girl from the video. We end up interviewing her and the story. So based on what she told us, this is what happened. She had never been on Omegle before, but she was a big Minecrafter.

She was really into minecraft okay and there's a bunch of minecraft um influencers or famous people or whatever you want to call them youtubers yep youtubers i'm so old yeah um youtubers that have like 10 million followers right and this one of these youtubers um uh had said he had 10 million followers and he said hey i would love to connect with some of my followers so you know on sunday at 6 p.m meet me on omegle and i'll try and connect with you so just for so you know everybody knows what omegle is. Omegle is basically a desktop platform or like it's better to use on a desktop. It's there's not there's an app and you have to sign in. Don't use it. Like if you want to check it out just to see what your kids are looking at, just use it on your computer. And like there's your video on one side and then there's a video on the other side.

And then there's a button that says talk to strangers and you click the button and it goes like uh like a roulette like a like a wheel yeah yeah and then all of a sudden a video pops up which is generally you know a naked man something bad jesus yeah so this youtuber says okay 10 million followers you know meet me on omegle at six o'clock on sunday and because he had so many followers there was a good chance that he would connect with some of them on omegle right it was a good way to like anonymously connect with some of his followers so she goes on to omegle at his you know said time yeah actually exactly she says connect with strangers and chat with strangers and uh ends up being paired up with a man who sees her sitting there

who starts talking to her and it's it was just very typical grooming behavior which resulted in her exploitation her her like there's a term self-exploitation but she was so there's no self-exploitation for an eight-year-old right she was clearly being directed what to do so and as as a result this material yes it was captured by omegle and taken off their platform but it was recorded on the other end and as soon as as soon as it's out there it is out there for good wow essential yeah you can't and is there any way to get that back like once you recognize that your child's been exploited right i mean of course you report it is there so it i'll say no like there's no certain way to get it back but um the Canadian Center for Child

Protection in Winnipeg C3P C3P um they have a program that they started I think it was back in like 2016 called Project Arachnid we heard this no uh so Project Arachnid is We hear this? No. So Project Arachnid is it's genius. It's a program that they developed that like scours the Internet for known child exploitation material. So that's material that the world knows about. That's in a database that's in the Canadian database or the Interpol database or whatever. It's known. OK, there's a lot of brand new material that's being made every day so that's different so any known material which this particular video would have been known and it scours the internet for this material and if it finds it it sends a notice to whatever platform the material is on is a takedown notice to take down the material because it's child exploitation okay Okay. The only problem is that there's no real authority

to force the platforms to take it down. So if the platform is in a country that doesn't have the same rules as us, we can't force them to take it down. Nothing you can do. My God. Okay, so I mean, I wish we had like 64 hours. We're going to have to have you

come back again because what I love the most about this is that this is so readily available to our babies every single day. And I feel like I'm fairly competent. I feel like, Erin, we know a lot about,

I mean, I watch what the kids are doing sometimes. I get them to teach me. I get them to show me. What is the best way in terms of prevention? What are some of the things that you would you would say senior tickets yeah is it just about the communication like knowing what they have access to very open honest communication um and like as soon as you start allowing them to have any kind of access to the internet because they're gonna

they're kids they're curious yeah they're like it is very natural if you're gonna give them a device that has completely open internet as children or you know youth or whatever however old they are it will be very natural for them to explore whatever they can because there's no boundaries in that right so oh i know it like even some of your stories are so amazing to me right like that then i know it is a time in your service there was this like you would pose as the 13 year old girl or the 14 year old girl and just how easy it was to get somebody to suggest okay no i'll come by your school or you know i'm in your town come over yes yeah like and i suppose if we go back to your original question like what what you know what were some of the biggest like shockers that would be how easy it was how easy it was and i

just like i know that we're probably gonna run out of time where i can talk about everything that i want to talk about but ai is something that we should talk about. Yeah, tell me more. Yeah, so it's just crazy how technology evolves because until AI started becoming a thing, predators still had some work to do, right? They still had to use some of their grooming behaviors. Was it a lot easier to do online than in person? 100%. Right, because if you're this old you know destroyed

and scary looking human being right you have to work pretty hard to navigate a relationship with a kid who could say like ah stranger can't do it now online it's there's it's easy to write to to find all of the things you love oh my god you love roblox me too right whatever it is right so while they're still like before ai while there was still this element of they had to be cunning still, they had to kind of think on their feet still because they were still, it was still offenders engaging in conversations, right? Yeah. As AI becomes more prominent, that's all magic. Automated. Magically created by the internet, right?

Wow. And what do you mean? So there's not a lot of work. Like what do you mean work well they don't have to put any work to it and work into it because the algorithms will create conversations with kids and speak like you don't have to type you can have devices you know or you know platforms reaching out to different kids in different areas and you don't have to do anything you just have to sit there and wait for them to share their you know to take pictures or videos of themselves and and share it with you wow yeah yes so and and that especially so the overwhelming amount of an overwhelming amount of this child exploitation material is females

okay but we're seeing a shift in males and it's the it's the sextortion which is which ai is called a deep bank actually is kind of the new term for it where ai is like before ai if i wanted to get you know if i wanted to sextort a child, a male, I would pretend to be a girl generally, right? I'd be a man. I'd pretend to be a girl. I would ask for like a dick pic from whoever I was talking to. Boys, there's not a lot of hesitation in sending those pictures generally as boys, right? So that might be a conversation to have with your sons. Girls are a little more hesitant. You have to work a little harder

to get that material from girls, but girls very stereotypically, and let's keep in mind, I'm speaking in very general terms, like there's always exceptions, right? But generally speaking, girls, like you would think stereotypically in real life like girls like the compliments and like talking to attractive people and you know what i mean

like they like to be made to feel good it doesn't take a lot of that to get material from boys okay so now with these deep fakes it's ai. Like previously, offenders would have to go through some steps to look like a female to to give the boy, you know, female material to get material back from him. Now it's all automatically generated, which is going to create more more exploitation material from boys. Ease of access. Yes. And that the idea, I mean, just, you know, for our listeners, I mean, the definition of sextortion, you know, is something that a term that I really sort of, you know, you, you pull somebody in, gain their trust, talk about, I mean, oh my gosh, you're beautiful. Like, uh, you know, oh, don't you show me a picture of your face and show me a

picture of your shoulders and whatever happens. And in that way, you know, they're like, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine. Even if it doesn't feel a hundred percent. Okay. Before you know it, you know, you've sent an image. And when you have a prefrontal cortex that is really impulsive and you are desperate to sort of want to be connected to or liked, and you know, it's like, okay, of course, yes. And I can't wait to come and talk to this person. And this is amazing.

And then, you know, you've sent a picture and then this extortion is really around, don't tell anybody. Now that you've given me this material, I'm going to use it against you if you don't do more. If you don't do more or one of the like one of the big themes is gift cards. Talk to your kids about gift cards. If somebody is offering you a gift card online, red flag, either you've already given them something and they're saying, well, if you don't give me a, you know, Google gift card or an Apple gift card or whatever, then I'm going to share your content with all of your contacts. Yeah.

So gift cards to have that conversation with your kids as well. Okay, good. That's excellent. Excellent. Oh, my gosh. I need to go home right now. This is it. Okay.

So circling back to you, because everyone comes from somewhere. So to be able to do this work, I mean, first of all, I am just so grateful to you because I can't imagine the toll that sometimes knowing this just believed in the rightness of the world, protecting servings, get into this organization that in, you know, in some respects lets you down. And then in so many ways you persevere and you just, you take on some of the hardest work. How, what is that? Where are you now? What is this like for you in this moment? I mean, does it, do you look back at your career thus far and be like, fuck, I did some amazing things here or. Yeah, no, I do. Yeah. I, ice work was by far the best work I've ever done. Um, I like, this is, this is so cheesy, but like, I feel like I've served my purpose by doing ice work. When I joined, uh, the policing community, I knew, I knew from the very beginning that that was the work that I wanted to do. And after I took seven years to get into it and then I was

in it for connected to it for seven years. And I know like, I know that I've had an impact on, on certain people. And yeah, it was the, if I could do that job till the day I die, I would do it till the day I die. Really? Yeah. So why, why did you stop? Um, because it really impacts you um yeah the content i mean the great part of it and you couldn't do ice work without um the redemption without seeing the fruits of your labor like you

go execute a warrant you rescue kids you put predators you know in jail sometimes in canada um occasionally um but you can you get kids out of a sexually abusive and exploitive um situation you yeah you help kids um which is making the world a better place um but the other side of it is that you are exposed to hundreds of thousands if not millions really through a through your the time that you spend in that work um of images and videos of children being abused um and so it changes the way you see the world. So you can't, as much as I would love to do that job forever, it just. You knew you couldn't. I couldn't. Yeah.

I couldn't. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Where, what's next for you? After, I mean, this, this quite amazing career and where has it directed you uh i'm not entirely sure yet um i've uh i've recently gone back to school um to do some psychology of all things yeah i bet yeah um and i'm not sure where that's going to lead.

I've got 16 years. It's not quite time to leave policing yet. And I'm still going to do, like, while I go to school, I'm still going to work. So I don't know. Can we come back to this next time? Yes, we can. My point is really just to lead you into this place where I, I just think, you know, the remarkableness of you as a human is phenomenal to me. And I, and I know this about many police officers that I've got to, to know over the years

is that there is this, despite the fact that the world does not treat you well, that you put yourself into positions where people, uh, can't, won't, aren't able, don't often treat you well, you continue to believe, even though you've seen some of the darkest sides of humanity, that there is hope, that there is a place where people need something to hang on to. And that you, I mean, even as you sort of go back to school, it isn't because I want to go back to accounting. It is, I really do believe that I could, you know, be better at therapeutically helping somebody through this process or creating a program that would be much better to get people to sort of heal their souls and be seen in the moments and in the dark corners. And I just,

I think it's just such a phenomenal determination in you to be able to continue to serve when you know just what it looks like sometimes is so remarkable. I wonder if you know that. I wonder if you know how amazing you are. I know. I'm actually quite uncomfortable with the whole concept. Right? Like, I mean, my gosh, like even in this, you know, almost hour, we just even had a little bit of, you know, to talk a little bit about what that was like. And I can't

imagine, you know, the kids, the humans, the people that, you know, get even, even the bad guys, if you will, you know, when you get so far down into a, I'm sure a shame spiral that is not where you wanted to be or intended to be, or, you know, you didn't, you know, intend to grow up to be, um, you know, a person who hurts children. Um, I, I just, I often think about what that must, you know, what the legacy is like in, in creating those things. Right. Right. Would you, I mean, in this world of policing, would you say it what has been the best parts of this career for you? Well, in terms of the work. It's it's knowing that it that you are like that you have helped people. And I think you've said this in different, not podcasts, but different videos or whatever.

Yeah, talks where we will never know the impact that we've had on the people that we serve. And I agree with that because, you know, you go and you respond to a call, a domestic, an impaired, whatever, and then you leave it and you run to another one and you leave that and you run to another. You never kind of see what happens afterwards. And I think it'd be unreasonable to think that we haven't changed some people's lives for the better. But also, like, I work with some pretty exceptional people and we all do it for

the same reason. So even though there have been hardships and adversity, you know, in the organization I work for throughout my career, there's also like some of the greatest people I've ever met in my life. I also have shared my uniform with, so yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and this is what's remarkable to me. And I, you know, you know, this, I, I often say, you know, if we don't look after the people doing the serving, the people they serve don't stand a

chance. And I think one of our biggest, you know, my biggest focus is moving forward is really how do we do a better job of looking after you and, you know, really hanging on to the people who are then even, you know, of course, serving people who are dysregulated. But then, you know, what what has happened to the ones who feel like it's OK to be unkind to their fellow police officers? Those are the ones that I want to get to. Those are the ones that I want to get to. Those are the ones that I want to question about, not what's wrong with you, but what happened to you that you would be in this position

and you would feel it okay to speak to a fellow police officer, whether she's a woman or a new recruit or whatever that looks like, right? That you would think that's okay. What has happened to you? And I think that's just that question of empathy about like, how do we shift this place? And I, I mean, I can't wait to do more in that, in that way. And I, and I cannot wait to watch what's in store for you because I know it's so remarkable to me,

but you're just getting started. I feel like there's so many more people that are going to be changed by the determination that is Laura Seely. So thank you. Thank you for coming today. Thank you for sharing even just this little slice of you with this beautiful community here. And I know that I'm going to have you back. That's where you can find Laura more. I'm going to put some of the things she talked about today in the show notes. If you want to follow up, um, on some of the things in the resources, I'll make sure we have all of those in there too. But, uh, listen, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. No. And thank you. Thank you for this. Yeah. I, I will just, I'll take any of this, any of you all the time. Let's do this again. Okay. Deal. Deal. Oh, and for the rest of you take care of each other lean into each

other we need each other now and more than ever talk to those babies don't be scared to have the conversations because those are usually ones that matter the most see you next time I'm a registered clinical psychologist here in beautiful Alberta, Canada. The content created and produced in this show is not intended as specific therapeutic advice. The intention of this podcast is to provide information, resources, some education, and hopefully a little hope. The Everyone Comes From Somewhere podcast by me, Dr. Jodi Carrington, is produced by Brian Seaver, Taylor McGillivray, and the amazing Jeremy Saunders at Snack Labs. Our executive producer is the one and only, my Marty Piller. Our marketing strategist is Caitlin Beneteau.

And our PR big shooters are Des Veneau and Barry Cohen. Our agent, the 007 guy, is Jeff Lowness from the Talent Bureau. And my emotional support during the taping of these credits was and is and will always be my son, Asher Grant.

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