Unlonely with Dr. Jody Carrington - You Can't Live in the What Ifs: Lorne & Lindsay Miller

Episode Date: January 25, 2024

Lorne has been a firefighter in Calgary for 16 years, a resilience officer and provides mental and physical resources for members on or off the job.Lindsay started as a social worker and then transitioned into a wedding photographer. She also co-owns and operates Substance YYC, a social media content company for all sizes of companies.Together Lorne & Lindsay have two babies - almost 8 and almost 5. As a family, they have been navigating a difficult cancer diagnosis for Lorne over the last couple years. They have taken that diagnois and chosen joy and share hope through their battle.In this episode, Dr. Jody, Lorne & Lindsay chat all about what it is like to be a first responder family and how they make it work through communication and understanding one another. Throughout the conversation, they also dig into Lorne's cancer diagnosis and the journey it has been so far for their family. Their choice to live in the joy is such an amazing teacher for all of us.@thelornemiller@lindsayskeansphotography Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Let's start here, where I think the answer begins for everything and everybody, in the place of acknowledgement. Indigenous peoples in this country have taught me the most about what acknowledgement truly means. So everything that I've created for you happened here on Treaty 7 land, which is now known as the center part of the province of Alberta. It is home to the Blackfoot Confederacy, made up of the Siksika, the Kainai, the Pikani, the Tatina First Nation, the Stony Nakota First Nation, and the Métis Nation Region 3. It is always my honor, my privilege mostly, to raise my babies on this land where so much sacrifice was made and to build a community, invite a community in, talk about hard things as we together learn and unlearn about the most important things, that we were never meant to do any of this alone. Okay. Welcome back. Welcome in everyone to Everyone Comes From Somewhere. conversation that has become one that has changed even from the initial idea that we had to sit down. Today is a couple that I want you to get to know a little bit because I think they will

inspire you beyond belief. I think that I've watched this hero unit navigate some things from afar. And I've been lucky enough to get to know them a little bit over the last few months. And when I asked them, first of all, to come on the podcast, there was lots of different conversations that we intended. And today, we're going to dive into some hard stuff around what it means to really truly handle some resiliency. And so if you are prepared for a heart filling, potentially heart wrenching and joy filled journey, buckle up because today, ladies and gentlemen, Lorne and Lindsay Miller are with us. And so here's my background. Lauren is a firefighter with the Calgary Fire Service here in Alberta for the past 16 years. He's now plays the role of a resilience officer, which means he's responsible for the mental and physical

resources for members either on or off duty. So you can imagine this is just beyond everything that I think the world needs right now. And I'm so excited to jump into that. Lindsay originally hails from Vancouver and started out as a social worker. And then she transformed quickly into a social work job as a wedding photographer, because I can't imagine any other form of photography that needs a social worker more than wedding photographers. And then amazingly talented and transformed that into sort of a family photography business. And now is the founder of a company called Substance Art. It's a social media content for all sort of sizes of companies. They have two babies, almost eight and almost five. And as a family, they have navigated a difficult cancer diagnosis for Lauren over the past couple of years. It has reared its head now

three times. And we're going to dive in today a little bit around just where they came from and what has brought them to this place. And so, guys, I start every podcast by talking a little bit about the fact that we are way more alike than we are different and that I think the basis of all judgment, our ability to be in judgment of other people can be so quickly deflated with empathy. And often it becomes the context, the stories of where we all come from that gives us that sense of, okay, we got this. And I want to know a little bit about both of you. I mean, I know the big conversation right now has been about, you know, for sure, first responder families and resilience and, and, uh, fucked up cancer world. Um, but tell me, uh, where do you come from? Lauren, start with you,

Lindsay, and then I want to know your story. Where do you come from and answer that? However, that lands for you. For sure. Yeah. And, and thanks so much for, for giving us the opportunity to come and spend some time with you. Um, it's such a wonderful, wonderful honor for us to do this. So, um, we really, truly appreciate that. Um, as, as for where I'm from, um, a bit of a bit of a, you know, boring background, I guess you could say, but a humble, um, born and raised Calgarian. Um, I grew up with a wonderful family, uh, here in Calgary. Um, like many kids, I wanted to, wanted to be a hockey player. So that took me to the West Coast, Vancouver Island, where I played a year out there. That's happened. That was in 2001 when September 11th happened. And I had just been cut from the hockey team that I was trying out

for. So I was sitting on a stranger's couch watching September 11th unfold. And it was a bit of a defining moment in my life because as I watched all the people run away from the buildings on September 11th, I saw all the firefighters running towards it. And I thought to myself, that's what I should be doing with my life is I should be a helper. So on that day, I decided that I wanted to be a firefighter. And that's when that journey began. I came back and went to Mount Royal University, which is where I met my lovely wife, Lindsay. And I joined the fire department shortly thereafter. And that's where I came from. Wow. That's like the quintessential firefighter hero

bullshit. I was watching the New York firefighters rush in and I was like, put me in coach. Yeah. Well, the coach just cut me. He was like, you're an idiot. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Right, right, right, right, right, right. What else can I do? You were like, let me show you. I'm going to make a real difference. Oh, I love it. And family still in Calgary, like siblings, how does that fit for you? I have an older brother and he's got two kids and they live 10 minutes from here. And then my parents are still in our childhood home, which is 15 minutes from here. So I still see and talk to them very regularly, which is, which is a wonderful, wonderful blessing for, you know, both myself and Lindsay and our situation and especially for our kids as well. So yeah, life is, uh, life is pretty darn

good. Yes. Oh my gosh. I love it. Okay, Ms. Lentz, give me the story. Well, mine is not as heroic as that. I grew up in Vancouver. Same thing, kind of boring upbringing, but I have two amazing parents. I have a younger brother. He's in Prince George. Born and raised on the North Shore. That's a beautiful spot on the planet

and moved here shortly after high school to go to university for social work. There I met this guy and decided that Calgary was, wasn't so bad. So we, we set up shop here and then I actually moved back to Vancouver to go to photo school when I decided that social work wasn't my forever career. And so I went back to Vancouver for photo school for a year. And then when it came back to where we could afford to set up our life and buy a house and where a lot of our social network was, was here in Alberta. So we, uh, we set up shop and I've been here since, well, originally since 03, but now moved back out of house, started our life in 2010, I guess. Gosh. Okay. And you, do you get back often? We do. My parents still live in BC and, um and they have a beautiful property on the Sunshine Coast that we

get to spend a lot of time at. So we go there a ton in the summer and then, and then a little shack in the woods in Squamish BC, which we also love. So we spend a ton of time out there. Oh, amazing. Okay. So I would love to dive in a little bit around this world where, when you, where did you meet? Like like i love this that you're like we're both university and then we met and like then and like i want to know how this happened like did you did you see like this guy who is going to be a hero and save the world and you were like oh no no god no i was so i was like no this is yeah we were both going to university but we both worked um at mount royal recreation oh okay yeah we worked in the intramurals program and i actually got an email in the summer knowing

that i would be working there again come fall um from a guy named lauren and i had never heard the name lauren before and so i was like what kind of name is lauren and then i met him like a month later and i was like oh he's pretty cute he I was like, Oh, he's pretty cute. He's got a funny name, but he's pretty handsome. Got it. So yeah, we started dating when we were working together. No, no, no, no, no. Slow down. So you get it, you get the, you get the email and you're like, okay, interesting. And so you meet him and he's like, huh, he's got a cool name and his name's Lauren. What did you think? did this go down you had to send an email you had no idea who she was yeah i was trying to wrangle up some of the the summertime employees that were um off campus for the summer and so yeah i sent all these emails to

strangers or whatever trying to wrangle them up for the for the fall because we were trying to run the intramural sports program and um she came back and, and yeah, I remember, I very vividly remember the first time I saw her. Um, and I was just like, geez, okay. Yeah. Let's hopefully she's on the team. What do we got to do? Yeah, exactly. And then, so we started working together for a couple of months and then this is a really funny story, um, for our very first date. Um, so who made the first move? Like who's, who's neither one of us for months. Yeah. So our very first date um so who made the first move like who's who's neither one of us for months yeah so our very first date we went to a friend of ours a friend of mine's uh wedding and lindsey was actually my third string option so i had two other people

before her and she knows that's and it's okay and we've we've oh god i i'm not going ah i'm like kind of like gee you just had him lined up miller like yeah i did i was like and when i was getting shut down and then lindsey came into the office and um i was working at the computer and lindsey peeled into the office and i didn't even like look at my head i was sitting on the screen and i looked over my shoulder and i was like hey uh do you want to come to a wedding tomorrow night with me and she's like yeah with zero hesitation she's like yeah what time we go on and i was like awesome we're in and then pretty much literally you know and it was really funny because at that wedding we didn't really know anybody there so it was a really good opportunity to get to know each other and chat throughout the night and we actually set up a whole scheme where we pretended that we were married and like put on fake wedding rings

and like came up with this crazy story like we're gonna tell people that we're made and all this sort of stuff and not one fucking person asked us a question all night. So we sat there with these fake wedding rings on and all this stuff. And then we just went home. And then you went home. Oh my gosh. And then, yeah, we've kind of been hanging out ever since then. That is awesome.

And how? 19 years ago. Like, that's crazy. Who does that? Who, where did you get fake wedding rings like just a shitty band on that like dudes wore back then you know what i mean like a silver ring and put it on my finger and then i can't remember what she put on but regardless nobody talked to us so it was just like that was a waste of time but i like funny date oh that makes for the best day you're at a wedding.

You're pretending you're married. Did you? Okay. So tell me if you, if I take you back to that wedding, were you like, obviously you already had the rings on, but were you like at any point going like, this actually could come to fruition here? This fella. Well, we both had crushes on each other for sure.

And so this was like technically our first date and we were just rolling with it. But then we didn't really date for a while. We just hung out. Yeah, I'm a bit of a dud. So it just took me a long time. It's not square wheels. Square wheels. Right.

So it was like a bit slow. Uh-huh. A bit slow. And then you got to figure it out. And then this decision happens. When does fire school come into this? Are you already a firefighter at this point? Uh, not, no, that, then we, we both graduated from Mount Royal. Um, I worked there for a bit shortly after graduation, knowing that I wanted to get into the fire department. Then we moved in together. Um,

and then I, I, uh, got on the fire department in 2007. And by then we were living together and that's when things really, really kicked off. Right. Got it. Got it. Okay. And what, take me back to that beginning when he says, you know, I'm going to go into this world. Did you have any history of the first responder world, Lindsay, in your family, any idea what you're getting into? No, not at all. And when we first met, he was pretty open with the fact that he was doing school, getting a degree. And then upon that degree, he was going to apply to the fire department. So it wasn't it wasn't a shock. Right.

No, no one in my family or really my circle from Vancouver were firefighters. So I was really going in blind. But I was like, firefighters are cool. It's pretty hot job. They have a calendar. Wow. Yeah, exactly. And not really knowing what that in, in, you know, includes. Right. Right. And I, and that's the thing I want to ask you a little bit about, like, if I take you back to the beginning of that, um, you know, how much did you know? Uh, how much did you, I mean, I know it's

been a number of years now, I mean, almost two decades kind of, but was there any conversation with the spouses? Was there any indication even for you, Lauren, about like, okay, this is a massive commitment as a family in terms of shift work and, you know, all of the things that potentially you're going to be, you know, put yourself into. How prepared do you think that, you know, people were even back then? Not very well. It's come a long ways in the, you know, the 16 years that we've done this and we've been doing this. And that's, you know, partly what my new job is now is to help prepare individuals and families for the challenges they're going to face on and off the job, right? Because, I mean, when I started back then, it was just kind of like a quick, hey, just so you know, you're going to see some fucked up shit, but you just deal with it and carry on. And it wasn't like,

you know, as you know, Jody, it's a lifestyle commitment. And not only for the individual who's putting on the boots every day to do the work, but for the family that's behind the scenes, that's doing, you know, even more work in a lot of ways, right? Like it's a family lifestyle commitment. And it takes a ton of work from both sides and a ton of communication from both sides to be able to make that work. You know, we face a ton of problems on and off the job as individuals and as families when we sign up to do this, this type of very difficult work. So it's really important that people are aware of that when we start this journey, that this isn't your typical job and you're not going to have your typical problems that come along with it. So it's really important

that they're aware of that and they can sort of front load their lives a bit to be ready to deal with some of the problems that they're going to face because it's not if, um, it's when you're going to face, face these things. Right. So, yeah, I love that. And do you think any amount of prep would have helped? Do you think that, you know, because you know, people say this, it's going to be difficult when you have a baby, right. And all of us are like, yeah, I bet it fucking is that for you, obviously not for me. You know? I mean, I thought, I mean, I, I often say it like this. I had a, my husband has, we had six degrees between us. Mine. I had 10 years at the Alberta children's hospital on a lock psychiatric inpatient unit for kids. The first time they put our baby in my arms, I was like, what the fuck is happening? I'm out. I'm out. I don't know.

And it's three o'clock in the morning and we're rocking the baby on a ball of, you know, those bouncy balls. talking about, we have to do better. We have to prep more. We have to do all those things, but it's like, there's so much about this ride that I wonder, you know, you, you could say it. Yes. You got shift work and you'll see fucked up shit and whatever, but like, you know, you're young, you're in love. You're two big strap and healthy humans that you're like, bring it bitches. Yeah. Yeah yeah I don't think it was really ever a conversation like it wasn't ever like a thought for us to cautiously go into that we just okay it was Lauren's dream it was it was it happened really quickly honestly yeah yeah and it just yeah it wasn't even a conversation what do you think oh sorry go ahead learn I was gonna say Lauren. I was going to say, it's just so interesting now because, I mean, when you reflect on everything,

that's where you do a lot of the learning, you know, in hindsight with things, right? And I find it so fascinating looking at it over the journey because, I mean, you're right in terms of like, you don't know what it's like till you have your baby, right? You don't know what that feels like. But I think there's a lot of value in front- front loading your mind to prepare yourself for the next chapter of your life. And there are a ton of things that we can do as first responders and as families to prepare us for that. Yes, there's nothing that you can no manual or video or whatever to read what it's going to be like the first time you hold a dead child. There's nothing that can prepare you for

that. And one of the analogies, you know, that I like to use, um, that I got from a coworker of mine is, you know, you got to jump in the pool at some point, right? You got to jump in, but you can, you know, if the diving boards way up here at 10 meters, there's certain things that we can do to lower that diving board. You can take it down to a seven meter, a five meter, a three meter until you're on the edge of the pool, but you still got to jump in. But if you do all those things beforehand to lower that height that you're jumping from, it's not going to hurt as much when you get in there. Right. And then it's easier to find that edge and climb back out. Right. So there's a lot of analogy. Yeah, I do. I do too. I think it's really, it's really smart. So it's, if we can really front load, you know, our minds and prepare ourselves for that

next chapter, both as the responder and as families, then when those bumps inevitably come, or you have to jump in that water, it's, you know, it's actually not too bad. It's a little bit warm. It's not as cold as you think it might be. Hey, everyone. We all know how draining cold and flu season can be. Waiting rooms, missed appointments, and that worry about whether a fever is something serious. But there is a better way. Maple gives you access to Canadian doctors and nurse practitioners in minutes, right from your phone. Get the medical care you need, including prescriptions when appropriate, 24-7 without leaving home.

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The University of Victoria's MBA in Sustainable Innovation is not like other MBA programs. It's for true changemakers who want to think differently and solve the world's most pressing challenges. From healthcare and the environment to energy, government, and technology, it's your path to meaningful leadership in all sectors. For details, visit uvic.ca slash future MBA. That's uvic.ca slash future MBA. And so then that begs the question for me, right? Like what is some of those graded experiences? What do you think is important if we were to set up for both of you? And I'll, and I'll ask you separately because I think it, although it comes together as a system, it's, you know, two very different roles often. What are some of those things? And Lauren,

you know, you and I have talked about this just briefly in terms of, you know, some of the things that we think we can do from a training perspective from like, you know, when you're retired, like, so what are some of those mid-range diving boards scaling look like? And what are some of the most important things you think we can be considering in this world of first responders? Well, I think it's, I think it's about, you know, managing our expectations and really having a strong understanding of what exactly we are getting into, you know, as a family, you know, and it really, for me, honestly, it really breaks down to the basic fundamentals of communication. Right. And because I've especially learned that,

you know, life carries on when you're, when you're a first responder and you're on especially learned that you know life carries on when you're when you're first responding you're on shift like you we do 24 hour shifts now right so i'm gone for 24 hours life carries on for lindsey and the family when when i'm not there um so the and when you get off shift 24 hours late 24 hours later a lot has happened probably in your shift and a lot has happened probably in your partnership as well so it's important to check in with each other as soon as that shift is done to know where each other's at. Right. So it can be as simple as if I'm coming off shift, I send Lindsay text and say, Hey, had a busy night last night. I'm coming in at about an eight out of 10. So I'm running pretty hot coming in here. Right. And she can reply back and say, okay, it sounds good. Night was pretty

good on our end. I'm sitting at about a five. So then she knows what I'm coming in at, right? Or vice versa. If her night was shit and she tells me she's at a nine on a 10 and mine was a seventh, then I know I've got to manage my expectations in terms of what I can get out of her, right? I love it.

Adjustments, right? Because what has typically happened traditionally is as first responders, we do not talk, right? We hold it back because I don't want to talk about the nasty things that I said or not said and the nasty things I had to do, you know, on the shift. And I don't want to put her through that or talk about it. So. Right. And what I love about that is that it's not because, and generally speaking, this is, I think the perception that happens is not because you're trying to hide things. Now there's the guise of confidentiality,

which is very true for people. There is for historically, you know, this idea, I can't talk, I can't talk, which is, I think, and I'll just say this, bullshit. Because again, there is stuff that is private within the sanctity of our relationships. But I think, secondly, I think the intention often when we stop talking is so good because the vicarious trauma is something we would never want to evoke on the people we love the most. And so we have this very scary language where we're saying to first responders, talk, talk to your families, tell them your things. And they're like, are you fucking kidding me? What this feels like in my body right now,

after I just had a rape and a suicide and a whatever tonight and a big, messy MBA, the last thing I'm going to do is come home and put any of this on the people I love the most. Right. So then it just stays internal. And sometimes then that perpetuates itself, you know, and historically, I think that's part of the issue. And so part of the question, I love this communication idea, which is not necessarily about here's the specifics, but here's how bad it was. It was a nine. Yeah.

And it's taken us a lot of years to get there for sure. Has it? Yeah. Tell me about that. For, for years, Lauren would come home and he wouldn't talk about anything, which is fair.

Like our role, you don't have to tell me what happened. You just tell me that you're going through something and you're processing something. And I don't need to know the specifics, but for years he'd come home and he'd be, he'd be in his head for two or three days. And then three days later, he'd say, you know, sorry, I've been, you know, so closed off or such a dick.

I, you know, the other night at shift, this happened and then it would be good. But three days later in those three days, it take, you know, you're, you're, I'm processing, okay, did I do something like this? He doesn't want to tell me this, you know, you go through all the emotions while you're trying to, trying to continue on with life. So now it's just, you know, I not ready to talk about it, but I had a really shitty night. Um, just want to give you a heads up that that's what I'm processing. And then he'll come to me when he's ready to talk about it. Okay. I love that.

It has taken a long time to get there. And nobody told us that when we first got in. Yes. Nobody prepared for that. For sure. So take me back to that. Because I often think about these young couples or even, you know, you have this now, this second entity in your marriage that is not unlike many professions. I mean, I think we think about, you know, some things, you know, physicians and police officers and, you know, social workers.

Right. There is that sort of thing where we would see some kind of things or hear some kind of things during the day. And how we communicate that becomes really, I think, the key. And so if you were to sort of have those conversations, and I know you do, Lindsay, with like, you know, new couples getting into the fire service, like what are some of the things you think as an organization they can do differently? What are some of the things that you would ever say to, to, to new couples, you know, whether you've been married for five minutes or, you know, 15 years, because often, you know, we're, we're hiring older these days sometimes. Right. And so you're,

you're often not, you know, just young and trying to like, fuck it, figure it out. You actually are coming in now with managing kids and timelines and second careers. Right. And so, well, I mean, is there a universal thing that you would be like, here's, here's the few things like just a head's fucking up. I think, um, I, it took me a long time to realize that it's okay that he's not wanting to tell me what happened. Like there's some, there's some safety in, in his crew and him only knowing what happened. But I used to, I used to own it being like, you know, he's, he doesn't want to tell me what he saw. And I think I used to take that personally when it's not like, I don't, I don't need to know what happened. I just need to know that he

has been through something that he's processing. So I think that that would, it would have been a good heads up to know that it's okay that he's not telling me everything and it's okay that some things stay within his crew and processing that. first responder couples, I would, I would encourage them to, to use, you know, the number system just to check in. It comes down to the basic communication, like here, I'm going through this, I'm struggling or, Hey, I had a really great night. This, you know, I'm ready. I'm ready to crush this day. What do you need? Yeah. Cool. What, what is, um, is there ever been a time where he's told you stuff that you wished he hadn't? No, no, no. There's, there's this one, one time that I like it vividly remember when I'm like, when I, when I think about if he would have told me this would have been better.

And it was one of our best friend's birthdays. And he, the night before he went out, he had probably one of our best friend's birthdays. And he, the night before he went out, he had probably one of the worst calls of his whole career. And he came home, didn't say a single word. We went out for brunch for our best friend's birthday and he was quiet. He was grumpy. And I took it as like, can you stop being such a dick? Like you're, you're being embarrassing me. Okay. Look at kyla's husband she you should be more like him okay he's funny and friendly and then lauren's processing the fact that i'm dragging him to a brunch after what he had just been through and he has to sit there

putting on his happy face while we have no idea what he's just experienced. And he's kind of turning it against us being like, these people have no idea what I just experienced. And we're going to sit here and celebrate a birthday when this group of people that I had just served, I know are having the shittiest day of their life. Like, isn't this the truth? And I think, you know, just as you're speaking, I was thinking about this, like context is the prerequisite for empathy. And I have a wish sometimes for any training facility across our country, whether it like fire EMS, 911, police, I wish we could tattoo that at the beginning of training. Context is a prerequisite for empathy. So when you want your crew to understand why you're shitty, the story is critical. When you want the people you love to understand why it doesn't have to be, I saw this or the jammies didn't, you know, whatever, like it doesn't have to be the specifics, but my gosh, isn't that powerful? Context is the prerequisite. And when you can just look at me and say, honey, I just saw some things that I can't shake. And so I'm coming with you, but I promise you, I won't be

all there. And that's all it. I mean, I mean, both of you, and I know this about many marriages, you know, we'd kill for each other. And oftentimes it's the story in our heads that get in the way of that, right? It's the assumptions, the unchecked stories about, he's just being a dick because he doesn't even like my friends. And you know what? Fuck, maybe you should get better friends, all right? Because these are my friends and they're not, like those are going on in our heads. This is what I love about couple therapy, right? Is that it is just really a conversation in both of your heads that we like just unfold a little bit. And most of the time you're like, you, what? No, I was what? And so it's so, it feels so simple when you say this,

it truly is about communication. Um, and people are like, but I love this real tangible place around, like if you don't want to use emotions, right. Cause this is also true in this, and this is a stereotype, but I'll tell you, it's very, very true in this world of first responders. Women tend to have much more of an emotional language. And so you might be equipped with things saying, like, I feel like super disappointed, or I feel like I completely let that whole team down last night. I feel like such an imposter. I didn't have a fucking clue how to hook up that hose or whatever. I don't know. You might say, I feel like just shitty. Right. And so it becomes really hard to then understand what do you mean shitty? Right. Versus when there's more words like a frustrated, disappointed,

I just feel like I've let everybody down. It's so much easier to sort of empathize with that sometimes. It's so much easier to empathize with that sometimes. And so this piece of communication, even if we start with the numbers, you get to know with your partner what a 10 means for Lauren. You get to know what a 10 means for Linz, right? And sometimes a two is like, I mean, this is a guy that downplays everything so like fuck he's saying five we're fucked it's gonna be a bumpy day you know what i mean but i that's what i love about you know your own respective stories is that you sort of get there my god i love that you guys that's amazing like i said at the beginning and it all comes down to that basic raw ground roots communication. Right. Because how unfair is it of me to not tell her how I'm feeling and then expect

her to be able to find the answer. Like there's in terms of what I need. Right. Like that's impossible, you know? And so like totally setting her up for failure. And then I get pissed off when she can't figure it out. Like what a dick move. Right. Like that just doesn't, you know, and it's like, we're, we're taking us 16 years. We're so good. We're so good as, as first responders at that, you know, functional disconnection where we can functionally disconnect and go do whatever we need to do on scene. We really struggle, you know, myself included with that functional reconnection,

getting back to your family and normal life. Right. But that's where the communication is that bridge. And like, and here's why it's so critically important. Okay. So I'll tell you, this is what I was just thinking about when you're saying this, what happens to your ability to make eye contact with another person when you feel grief, when you feel like you failed somebody, when you are scared, when you have a, a nauseous feeling sitting right here, right? What happens to your ability to look at people? You can't. You're keeping stones.

Yeah. Yeah. And so now we think this is the other thing that is added into this piece, right? You have this story that he doesn't want to tell you because he doesn't think you can handle it or it's part of the inner circle. And because you're not a member, you don't get to see the inner circle. Like, does he love them more than he loves me? And like, is there somebody at work that he, oh, he feels comfortable. And so then I'm not looking at you,

you son of a bitch. And then, and then this piece is like, I'm, I'm having flashbacks or I can still smell the gasoline or, you know, whatever's happening. And so it, the last person I want to look at is the person I love the most. And it is just, I think I talk about this all the time is that, you know, the only thing that we're wired for is connection, but the hardest thing we will ever do is look into the eyes of the people we love. And when we talk about this world of first responders, the, the, the ability to look at each other becomes even further compromised, just given the nature of the work. And you also don't look at each other when you're tired. So we have a difficult job. We have, um, uh, shift work and we have a difficulty sleeping

after shift work because when you've seen really big things and your body's like, be fucking ready, we're going to fight the world. And then, oh, you're off shift. So your body's supposed to know that now and it's time for rest. No, it doesn't know that. Oh, and also- Get to work. Right. And also hockey practice is at eight, bitch. So get up. Life doesn't care. Right. And so I just, I mean, I love that your role, Lauren, is this. I love, Lindsay, that you are stepping into this so much into this place because I think that it is, it isn't going to take a ability to just get them to look at each other again. If you can do that before and after every shift to the best of your ability, even if it's on a FaceTime, even if you want to fucking throw a punch each other, it is that ability, like not

literally, which anyway, but it's this idea. It's that idea, right? That nobody knows your story better than the two of you. Nobody knows your story. And even if you individually come to therapy, this is what I say all the time when I'm doing couples work. Even if you individually come to therapy, man, there's not the magic that I can create when the two of you actually get in the same physical space of each other. Because even if I know every piece of your story, what I don't know is what he sees when he looks at you. And what I don't know is what you see when you look at him, because there's so much about your story that is written without words.

And I think that, you know, it's, it, it is that piece of being able to just slow down long enough and be brave enough to look. Yeah. And I think if there was ever a place that we could sort of talk to more in this sort of wellness role, and we talked a little bit about this, right? How do we spend more time like that? How do we encourage families to spend more time like that? Because it's the hardest fucking thing, man, it's easier. It's easier not to. And, and what do you think of that? Yeah, I totally, I totally agree with that. And yeah, I mean, they're the most important person in your life, right? And being able to spend time, like you said, that intimate time together is of critical importance, right? And so we've needed those moments where we can actually, actually fucking lean on each other, you know, through actual hard shit. Because when you get into those really sticky and thick situations, gosh,

you lean on each other more than you could have ever imagined, right? You say those vows when you get married, but it's like, okay, in sickness and in health, geez, we're actually going to see what that really means and what that really looks like and what that really fucking feels like. And that's incredible, right? When you can actually have those experiences. Listen, tell me a little bit more. When did that, this journey start? What was it like to hear those words in the beginning, uh, two really healthy people in this family system? Uh, I bet, uh, I'm going to guess you didn't see it coming.

Do I answer that or me? You can answer that. So, so yeah, it was in May of, uh, 2021. So just at the tail end of, you know, the COVID pandemic. So things are still, you you know pretty bizarre and weird and winding down or whatever and then yeah we you know our kids were five and two at the time and you know we're looking forward to pandemic and ending and carrying on with life and getting back to normal and I was having a little bit of you know kind of super minor abdominal issues and so after speaking to a friend of mine who's a doctor in Toronto, he suggested I go to the local hospital here in Calgary just because they can fast track things in terms of scans and testing and blood work and all that sort of stuff. And he said, it's probably a hernia.

Just go get it checked out. So went there, you know, it was a Sunday night. I went there Sunday night. It was Mother's Day after the kids went down. I just beetled over. I thought I'd be home in an hour and that was a Sunday night. I ended up not getting home until Monday afternoon at four o'clock. Um, you know, with lots of tests and all this sort of stuff.

And, and yeah, that's when the problems began. They told me I had a gigantic tumor in my, my abdomen. And so I had to sort of chew on that all night while Linz was at home with the kids. Um, and then we then we started the process. And yeah, it's been two and a half years, I guess, now that we've been doing it. So that's when it all started. And we're happy to say we're still here. We're still grinding.

We're still in the thick of it. I had two massive surgeries, one in June of 2021, and then one actually a year ago today as a matter of fact I had my second second surgery I realized that this morning because today was supposed to be the day that I celebrated cancer free for a year but things changed and it came back again for a third time last October so now I'm in the middle of you know a treatment program and we're doing our best with that so we're just we're trying our best with that. So, um, we're just, we're trying our best. Um, and you know, we're leaning on each other and our incredible support network, um, to work through this and to face these challenges as they come up. Yeah, I bet. I, Lindsay, when you, gosh, I don't, I don't even know the question. Um, the hardest part so far.

Um, the hardest part was day one, like that, that huge pivot. Like you ask if we saw it coming, of course we didn't see it coming. He was a fit 38, 37 year old. Oh yeah. Right before he turned 38. Um, he was a fit, um, 37 year old man. Of course we didn't see it coming. Um, when he went to the hospital, I truly did believe he had a hernia. And when he came home, I took one look on his face and I, I fell to the ground and knew something was drastically wrong. Um, but once he came to terms with it and once we, we learned the, the ins and outs of it, we kind of, you know, started to find our footing and, and have always just tried to take it one step at a time and, um, you know, look at it as, as positively as possible. Okay. Okay. If I can slow you down a little bit. So Lauren, you sat in the hospital by yourself knowing this, um, and you just held that for a little bit, just you. Yeah. Uh, tell me about those moments. What, what happens when, um, and I'm asking you this

specifically because, uh, I, my own understanding of this cancer journey, which has been far too many already in my world, uh, is that it is so lonely and that it is so isolating and so many people want to help in the journey and all of those kinds of things. Um, but like, fuck, it's not fair. And when you're in your own head, it's nobody else's body that you have to reflect on those things. What, what were, do you remember what it was like? I bet you remember every moment, but what, tell me about those, that initial sort of come to Jesus. It was, it was awful. You know, it really truly was because I went over there with, you know, in my mind, you know, a basic problem. And now that problem has been escalated into something that's severely life threatening. And now I hold that

news and that information. And nobody else knows that, except me. And I'm, I'm the one that's going to break everyone's heart. I'm the one that's got to share that and give them that feeling that I have right now. And that is the, that was so unbelievably painful. And that, you know, relates back to our world as a first responder, when we know that information about a patient or a scene, and it's like, you have to give that to that family. You're this weird key holder and gatekeeper of this information and knowledge. And that it's such a weird space to sit in. And I've now had to sit in it two or three times because when I get that information that it's come back, I have to relive and re-experience and redo that and re-break people's heart. And to me, that's the worst because that's been the

most painful thing for me on this journey. I don't care about the treatment. I don't care about the surgeries. I don't care about any of that. I can handle all that. I can't handle the pain and stress and worry that it causes, you know, people that are cheering for me and to be the one that provides that, that, that information is, is really difficult for me. And so, yeah, I vividly recall sitting there for hours, thinking, geez, how am I going to tell my wife this? She's at home with my kids. And I'm not going to be able to protect them from this. This is so much bigger than I am. And like, this is going to fucking

sting. And so I had to chew on that all night, you know, in terms of figuring out how I'm going to deliver that message. And the reality is, I came home, my, my eyes delivered that before my voice could. Right. So, yeah, this one knows you. Yeah. You know, and it was, it was pretty easy to, to, to read that. And, but, you know, like Lynn said, we sort of, you know, as a family, we, we, we took this on, you don't have a choice.

And, um, you know, we got all the information and our support network is beyond incredible. And they haven't left our sides since then. And, you know, and they continue to carry us, carry us through this as we navigate this, right. So we've also learned, you know, despite, you know, these incredible challenges from this, your life can still be filled with, you know, gratitude and abundance and joy. And it's all, all depends how you choose to face this journey. You have a distinct choice, right? And, you know, you mentioned it's not fair, but like what's fair got to do with it. This is our reality.

And we have a choice on how we're going to move forward with this. And that choice is ours, right? So that's the decision that we make, you know, when we face this and it's the decision we continue to make is, you know, survive war and famine and bury your own children and figure out untimely deaths? Like what the fuck is deal? And he talked about two things that are the cornerstones of mental health, agency and gratitude. And it feels like shitty.

I think it's a stepwise process, right? Because I think that agents gratitude becomes like this bullshit sort of like, I'm just so thankful for fucking sunshine when you're like, you know what? Fuck you. And, or, you know, you watch other hockey dads, you know, just skating and being at all the things in your, you know, there, there is those moments. I'm sure I'm going to put words in your mouth where you're like, you know what? Fuck you. And you probably aren't like that. I'd be like, you know what? Oh, I bet you're excited about Christmas, bitches. But I, but I, I don't, I'm just maybe guessing you people are

much nicer than me. Uh, but I, but I think that when I think about agency, it is that sense of like, okay, just what you said, which is so profoundly important. What the fuck do I have control over in this moment? Right. What is it that I have control over? And it really then focuses on this internal sense of like joy. And I know our mutual friend, Jess Jansen, uh, you know, wrote a book about this and, uh, and I, I would have titled it joy is a fucking choice. And, you know, we, we've talked about how she should probably change the book title. Uh, but you know, even we talked about this, even as she sat in the front row of the funeral, uh, for her baby boy, um, there were moments of joy and it is that agency that becomes the piece that then internally focuses. Um, the second step of course, is that

gratitude piece, which allows you then to look outside of you. Because I think we get a lot of, you know, stuck into, okay, I have control over the next treatment. I have control over our decision about what we do with this. I have control over, you know, whether we celebrate Christmas or whether we don't or what, you know, whatever, whether I'd be mad at the doctors or mad at whatever. And then the next step is, okay, that gratitude piece is, okay, but what do we have in this moment? And I don't know if I've seen two people live this so fully than the two of you. And I mean, again, as unfair as this is, this is just the outside looking in. But I don't know if you know how remarkable you are. And I don't know if you also know how many people are watching. I think that there is so little hope in this world some days.

And I believe so much about this, Linz, that you can't tell anybody how to do it. You have to show them. And I think, you know, as I watch you just celebrate with your kids and, you know, you tell me, yeah, I got to go to this hockey coaching camp. Cause I got to, I mean, I'm fucking coaching, you know, like, you know, and that, that ability to still live when there is so much looming, I would imagine in the backs of your minds. Tell me, I guess, you know, where on those really difficult moments, what, what helps the most is, is there anything, do you just have to feel them all? Well, we process those differently. Oh my God. That's awesome that you know that. Tell me, tell me about that.

Yeah. On the hard days, like Lauren's really good at acknowledging his feelings and sitting in them and really facing those feelings. I'm really good about, okay, this is a hard day. I'm feeling all the feels. What do I need to do to make myself feel better? I know, I know the things that make me feel better. I know I need to move my body. I need to, um, go hang out with girlfriends. I need to, you know, go to a movie with the kids. Those are the things that make me feel better. I'm really good at moving past them. Lauren's really good in acknowledging and sitting in it. Um, we, we like to encourage each other to do vice versa maybe not so not so well sometimes but um i just i i always go back to the fact that um you can't live in the what-ifs it very early in this process um Lauren's best friend, Joel sent us this note that said,

instead of focusing on the what, what ifs, like the negative, you know, what if I don't make it through this? What if, what if, you know, the worst thing happens, let's focus on all the things, the what ifs of the positives, you know, what if this opens doors that you never thought would open? What if the, what if this brings people into your life that you never thought would possibly be there? What if it shows you all the amazing people that are sitting at your table? What if it brings you closer than you ever thought was possible? And you know what, all those things have happened. And we, I think we, we go back to that every day. Like, what if, what if it all works out? And that's like, we have it written on our whiteboard. What if it all works out? I mean,

you can't, you can't sit and live in the what ifs because you've drowned in them. You physically drown in them and no amount of worrying takes, takes away what is actually going to happen. And it just ruins the joys of today. Like we truly try to live that's, that's so much easier said than done in the thick of it and the hardship, but, but honestly, like, what if it all works out? And that's, that's what we hold on to every day, every day, every day. And I, and, and when we decided, sorry, when we decided to share this journey, Lauren's a phenomenal writer, as you know, my background's in photography. So we were like, this is the perfect opportunity. We're two of the perfect people to really put a voice to this

because you said it earlier, as soon as you get that diagnosis, it's so fucking lonely. It's lonely for the patient. It's lonely for the support person. You instantly feel alone for different reasons. And yes, we have each other, but he's processing different things that I'm processing. So honestly, putting it public is very therapeutic. We've gotten to meet and chat with so many people that we wouldn't have had the opportunity to meet and to chat with. And it's brought so many amazing people into our lives. It's shown us who's sitting at our table because, trust us, we have some amazing, amazing people sitting at our table, helping us get through this because it's, it's not just the two of us. We have, we have an incredible support network

and all that probably wouldn't have happened if, if we didn't, you know, put it out there. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And one of the questions I have is, you know, I think that, you know, when you say it's easier said than done, um, I, I wonder about, do you ever give yourself permission to, to just feel it? Do you ever give yourself permission to have those moments where you're like, fuck it, I'm going to curl up in a ball? Like, I don't know, like, do you, do you have those times or do you fight that really hard? I think I have them more than, than Lindsay does. Um, I'm an emotional person and I'm okay with that. Um, and yeah, and, and, and I feel it, you know what I mean? And I

feel it and I accept that and I let it go. Um, and then, but I also recognize it's, it's not okay to stay there. Right. So it's like, okay, feel it. Pick yourself up. Get back to fucking work and do this, because I recognize, you know. That we don't know what the time clock looks like for us. Right. I recognize that. So this what we have right here right now is our time. Right. And this regardless of how this shit plays out, this is a defining moment in our lives. And with our kids being so young, they are going to look back and see how we handled this and our friends handle this and our family handled this. And this is our chance to do it right. And so when I get up every morning and put my pants on one leg at a time, just like you do, I have to make this choice to go out there and go for it, right?

Because I don't know what tomorrow looks like, but I do know what today looks like. And today looks pretty fucking awesome. So I'm gonna go out there and do it, right? And because this is the time that we have, right? And so we have to make the most of it because if I want this story and our story to be, you know, have multi-generational impact, I better do a damn good job of fucking writing it, right?

And so that's how we do it is go out because at one point when we grow up, you know, and I learned this from listening to your story, at one point, we truly learn who our parents actually are. Right. And the day that happens, I want my kids to be damn proud of us. Right. And to say, holy cow, like mom and dad went through some serious shit and they still gave us a normal life where we were surrounded by love and all these incredible things. And I want them to just be proud at that moment, right? So in order for that to happen, that's right here right now in this in this defining moment, right? So we got to

do our best, right? And I just want to know that, you know, whenever my story ends, you know, God willing, it's several years from now, whenever my story ends, that we did the best we could, right? And help some people along the way. And like I said, live a life of gratitude and abundance and joy and conscious decisions to do that and find ways to be useful, right? And it's all those wonderful, wonderful things, right? So that's how we're trying to, trying to play this, trying to play this hand. You know, I, as you were talking, I was sitting here thinking about what it's going to be like for your babies to watch this someday when you're all sitting around raising grandkids together, doing all the things, cause you're going to kick the shit out of this. Uh, I, I think that i can't imagine how proud they're gonna be and i i think about that all

the time when i think about this for my kids you know because you're right cancer puts things into perspectives so fucking fast hey like we can have a million problems in the day And when your health becomes an issue, you only have one problem. And I think what I love about your sentiment is just what this has done to make you live so fully and so present that I wish so many people in this moment listening to this will just do, regardless of whether you're fighting a life threatening illness or whether you understand no matter what your babies are watching yeah and if you don't have your own personal babies your nieces your nephews the kid down the street um how do we navigate this world it's really about you stay as fucking connected as you can to the people who are

relentlessly pursuing connection to you and you serve this world like it's your job because some of us feel like there's maybe a timeline that's more apparent than others, but, but we're all on the clock. Yeah. Right. And, and I just, I just love, I like, I can't believe how lucky your kids are to have chosen the two of you because navigating, I mean, what, I mean, Jesus, the two of you can accomplish this. Can you imagine? Can you imagine what these two have ahead of them? My gosh, my gosh. Okay. So I love, I love that the most. Next, in the next little bit

for you, for your business, I want to talk a little bit about that, Linds. What, what has this done in terms of, you know, capturing moments, representing sort of this place in social media? You both have this beautiful sort of collaboration of like Lauren can write to save his world, and you can capture these images and putting those together, and this has now become the business. How has this inspired you, your creativity? Do you see an opening there for you? Has this giving you a different perspective on the world? Absolutely. I think like in terms of family photography, it, everyone always, you know, wants photos to represent this perfect family and this perfect time and this, and you know,

like Sally doesn't have any food on her face and and bobby doesn't have stitches on his forehead can you photoshop that off but when reality comes like like every family needs to have photos in every stage of life so it don't don't wait until you've lost the weight don't wait until you know s Sally's hair goes back after she cut it from scissors. You know, every family needs photos regardless of what you're going through in the world. And I've had an incredible opportunity to meet a lot of oncology families that I've had the opportunity to shoot with, even when they're going through the hard shit, you know, even though your kid has a feeding tube and has no hair, let's do family photos because it's so important. And, you know, these photos that are sitting behind us are taken by a good friend of ours. And she took

it the night before we went in to find out, uh, had the night before we went in to find out uh had the night before we went in to the first appointment at Tom Baker to find out you know what what was actually happening with Lauren there was so many emotions going through our heads and they're my favorite family photos ever so I think it's changed my perspective on family photography because I encourage people to get family photos done in the good times and the bad times through everything and you know how much those those photos you'll cherish even though you think you think you won't because you know you're going through the shit of time and and yeah photos are not just for the good times and and I think that that has changed my perspective for my business so much, um, in terms of sharing Lauren and I story, I mean, it's, we have a story to tell, so let's collaborate and do it, do it together. Cause that's what we love to do. So,

Oh, uh, and that is like, you can feel it. You can feel it. I often talk about my Ria who lost her battle of cancer at 44. And at 44 and she left two babies behind. Nevi was four and Lucan was seven at the time. They went to Disneyland and had a photographer. So that was one of the things that we talked really importantly about doing. And it was so critically important to, I love every single image that was there. And we just had our family photos done last week. And I was like, I felt such like a chunky monkey in my fucking, who do I think I was at 48

years old strapping on some leather brown pants and a fucking daddy suit. I mean, what is wrong with you? And there's all these photos that we got back. I was like, you know what? You're fucking welcome. You're welcome kids. You're welcome. And I think, I think that's the point that I love so much about this is that you're capturing your story and it is just so critically your own. And none of us know. I mean, again, the interesting thing to me about cancer as, as shitty as it is, is it gives you that instant perspective on a timeline. And you can say, you know, yes, those were the days we knew the next day we're going to get come back in and get a plan. Or that was the time when or this was the moment when, man, I just love that, that it is all a part of

a journey. And we're just walking each other home. That Ram Dass quote, man, it just defines everything that I do when I think about every single day. And I just got to tell you guys, thank you so much for this. You are, you are some of the most profound walkers I've ever met. You are walking so many people home. And I think sometimes the mistake we made and I, you know, I thought about this with Ria that I was, I was sometimes the mistake we made, and I, you know, I thought about this with Ria, that I was, I was doing the walk-in for her. She, she was the walker and, and you're

just doing that for so many people, including me. Thank you for giving me just this gift of your time and your insight. And I, I just cannot wait to watch all of the things for many generations that your story and your family is going to do and is already done for people. So from the bottom of my heart, thank you for being so brave and for giving me just so relentlessly all of both of you. Thank you so much for having us. Thank you. Thank you so much, Jody, for allowing us, you know, your time, sharing your time and space to come here. And thank you for all that you do for, you know, your community and our community and all the people that you help too. You're such a wonderful helper. And I'm so humbled and honoured to learn from you and follow your lead on so many things. And I'm just so thankful for everyone that's, that's in our support network that

continues to lift us up and, and bring us home and carry us there. And, um, you know, I don't have a choice, but to, to kind of lead the way on that, but I've sure got some of the fucking best people in the world cheering us on to get us across that finish line. So, um, thank you so much for, for being one of them and, and, and having this moment today. I really, really appreciate it. I'm a bit, I'm your biggest fan forever and always in your corner. I'm going to link everything, uh, folks to, you know, not only Lindsay's work and her company, but also the journey that you can follow along on. And, um, I, I want you guys back again. We're going to do updates along the

way, if that's okay by you, I would love to do that again. If you have, if you'd have me. And, um, in the meantime, everybody, I want you to, to listen really, really, really hard to these words today. You got to live everything, um, the best that you can in the moment. And you got to show people how to do it just like the Millers. And, uh, I can't wait for you to cheer them on along, uh, to in this community. So, uh, take care of each other and you too. Thank you for this. It means the world. Thanks so much. Love you. I'm a registered clinical psychologist here in beautiful Alberta, Canada. The content created and produced in this show is not intended as specific therapeutic advice. The intention of this podcast is to provide information, resources, some education, and hopefully a little hope.

The Everyone Comes From Somewhere podcast by me, Dr. Jodi Carrington, is produced by Brian Seaver, Taylor McGillivray, and the amazing Jeremy Saunders at Sn snack labs. Our executive producer is the one and only my Marty pillar. Our marketing strategist is Caitlin Benito and our PR big shooters are Des Vino and Barry Cohen. Our agent 007 guy is Jeff Lowness from the talent Bureau. And my emotional support during the taping of these credits, uh, was and is, and will always be my son, Asher Grant.