Unzipping Taboos: Candid Conversations about Sex - Beyond the Man Box (Part 2): Body Image, Masculinity, and Mental Health

Episode Date: September 3, 2025

We’re back for Part 2 of our dive into men’s health — and this time, we’re going deeper into the quiet, often invisible pressures that men face around body image, masculinity, and emotional wellbeing.We continue to explore how the “man box” not only limits expression but also distorts how men see themselves — physically and emotionally. From six-pack abs to emotional stoicism, we break down the messages men are fed and how those expectations show up in relationships, mental health, and even doctor’s visits (or lack thereof).We unzip how these issues affect intimacy, how shame and silence keep men from seeking help, and why it’s time for all of us — men, women, partners, parents, providers — to stop mocking, start listening, and rewrite the scripts around masculinity.This episode is a call to shift from judgment to curiosity, from silence to support. Because unzipping men’s health means making space for vulnerability — and that benefits everyone.If you have a story, thoughts and/or a topic or question for Dr. Sue and Charlie please share your ideas here:  ⁠Show suggestions

Hey, everyone. Welcome to Unzipping Taboos, candid conversations about sex. We are Dr. Sue and Charlie, and we are here to have the kinds of real, unfiltered conversations about sex, sexuality, and relationships that most people are too afraid or too embarrassed to start. No shame, no judgment, just honest, open talk. So zip down and let's get candid. and hey did you know you can now watch us too that's right we are unzipping taboos is officially on video so if you've ever wondered what it looks like when dr sue gives air quotes or rolls her eyes at a phrase that she absolutely adores in the sex health um atmosphere or when i cringe mid-laugh or roll my eyes at something um now's your chance you can find us wherever you stream

your podcasts, you can watch us on Spotify or YouTube. Today, we are going to dive into part two of our men's health discussion. And I think a big part of this discussion is going to center around body image, men and body image, and then the ripple effect really of what that does to men and their mental health, their relationships, etc. But before we do that, I am here with Dr. Sue. Hey, Dr. Sue. Hey, Charlie. How's it going? It's going well. I'm excited to do part two. Yeah. I've never gotten to do a part two. I mean, I feel like every episode we do is the next part, but sure, sure, sure. Well, before we dive in, would you like to give our listeners a little bit about your background? Sure. So I'm going to do a little bit of the two

halves that kind of come together here. So I do have a PhD in human sexuality education, which is kind of where Dr. C was born with a sex and sexual health focus. But before that, I was a health educator. I have a bachelor's and master's in health education. I'm a master certified health education specialist. And that's really kind of how I started getting into this was that I started realizing we don't really talk to men about their health. We talk to the women in men's lives about men's health but we oftentimes don't talk to the men directly and it was I mean it's kind of in the sex world I was working in a reproductive health clinic and we served mostly teenagers and I feel like maybe a few people in their in their young 20s but mostly teenagers and I was like cool when

are we going to do programming for the men the boys at that age um and they looked at me like I'd sprouted a third head or something and was like well we why would we do that I'm like who Who do you think most of our patients are in relationships with? Who do you think is getting our patients pregnant? And who do you think is giving them STIs? Like, or they're getting STIs from not giving it. And it was just like, it was, it was like, I had mentioned this thing that had never existed.

And that's where I kind of started on this, you know, beating the drum about, we need to start talking about men's health. And the more I got involved in the field, the more I realized just how bad a job we do of talking about men's health. um so I am the co-author slash co I'm a co-editor of a textbook on men's health I've also I also wrote a couple of the chapters in that book um and I've been talking about that now for not not not nearly as long as I've been talking about sex um but I've been talking about it for a while so that's kind of my background with that I think it's better than my usual yeah there we go I'm

getting better at the at the intro I usually suck at the intros because I'm just like let's just get to the content um but someone who's very good at her intro okay show us how it's done is charlie um for those of you who i mean you've already met her um but for those of you who know her or this is your first time meeting her uh charlie is our curious co-host who is always ready to talk about all the the taboo topics that we very rarely talk about openly um go ahead and do you want to give us a little more? You can always say no. Sure. You put it really perfectly, just being able, being comfortable talking about the things that people don't always want to talk about and examining that. And a lot of times I like to highlight that I've just always loved challenging

expectations and taboos, especially around societal expectations and conditioning, social conditioning um and really talking with people giving them a space where they can feel heard and they can say the things out loud because sometimes you just need to say it out loud um but giving them the space and an ear to say the thing out loud without um without being judged or getting a getting a face or anything like that um in response and i find that especially to be especially powerful as a woman in society, because there are certain things that I was conditioned to believe that I never really bought into from the time that I was little. I know you're shocked, Dr. Sue. I'm glad, glad you were sitting down for that news. But just really looking at this,

this thing that we're doing together, navigating humanity and the human experience and, um and really striving to give people a space to feel their humanity and experience their lives um the good the bad and the ugly so that's me there we go all right so males and their body image do we want to do some level setting first so i'm like are we going to we talking when we say men are we talking cis men male assigned at birth yeah so let's let me let me kind of own that at the beginning so when we were talking about men's health in this perspective we are talking about cis men and if you don't know what a cis man is it means that he was assigned male at birth probably has a penis and identifies as male and the reason we're doing that is that

well one is the assumption behind so much research so much of the research they just say male or female and don't actually dive into um those those differentiations between cis male and non-cis male and so that is one of the really big problems i have with the research the other is that from the folks i've worked with and this is purely anecdotal but for the folks i've worked with who are trans men um they're actually better about their body image because they didn't they weren't raised with kind of that that whole body image issue about men since they were younger since many of them identified as female when they were younger or were identified as female and were assigned yeah they were assigned female birth and identified as female for a while until they

realized they were ready to to become who they truly were and so for them it's kind of like they get to redefine what it means for them as a man and i and again anecdotal does not measure up to the the research because we don't really have a ton of research on on folks who are non-binary or who are trans and how their body image is affected but what we do know is that when we're talking about cis men and i'm just going to use the term male here because we are talking about cis men and i'm going to transition that yeah to men um men are getting messages about male bodies from the moment that they can like before even their memories start i mean i probably don't remember before i was seven or eight but it doesn't mean i wasn't getting messages and they

weren't shaping who I was so so yeah so we're talking about cis men but we are I'm just going to use the term male but we are you we are talking about cis men yeah so to get into this um I mean where do you what thread do you pull first in the sweater you know so I want to acknowledge that this is a thing because even when I talk to large groups whether it's students or professionals professionals I was doing I did something for workplace wellness last year I'm getting lost on where I am in the world right now maybe a year or two ago I was doing something on men's health and and I had people sitting there going but why does it matter and I'm like okay let's get into it and one of the things one of the things I talk about is eating disorders and body image and it's

like wait I thought we were talking about men and I'm like yes I'm I you did not leave the men's session you know there was no teleportation happening but they're like but that's not really a man's issue and i'm like that that right there is part of the problem that when i say and i don't want to get too much into the eating disorders because well maybe we should i don't know um but when i say eating disorders when i say body image like everyone not everyone but most people assume i'm talking about women and it's it's not this is women don't own the rights to body image issues but that's who we primarily focus on and we have way more education now for women right the dub campaign about women are beautiful in all shapes and sizes I've never seen the same for men

ever um so I think acknowledging that it's it's there and acknowledging that it can have some of the same negative impacts on their physical and mental well-being the same way we see with women so I think that like really even saying it's a thing is a very important first step so I think maybe start pulling that. Yeah. And to, to just drive that point home, I, I came across something that cited a study that found about 30 to 40% of men have a body image issue or anxiety and and 85% of them are not satisfied with their muscularity. Yeah. So, so, so when you say this is absolutely a thing for men, it is absolutely, there are studies that show almost half of men are struggling with this and, and we rob them of the language and, um, and the, in the,

in a way where because I don't just a little bit of a sidebar I don't think many women would would say no body image is only a women's issue but certainly media and society says it and that is one of the reasons why you are at unzipping taboos because we are this taboo that um of body men body image issues um the thing about the body image is fascinating for me and and i'm glad we're finally doing the research on it as it deserves uh there was a term that they were trying to make big probably about five ten years ago i still hear it randomly in things and i'll still read it randomly in research i don't i never quite love this term and it's funny because i'll ask my students because i'll bring up men's health because i and i do it separately

like I teach a kind of an intro to health class and I and I bring up men's health as a separate topic to set the stage of what we don't know because so much of the data is missing on this kind of thing um and then I talk about race and well and then what we don't know about you know how often we don't look at race but anyway um I will bring up the this this term and I'll ask them if they like it and the term is bigorexia and I have mixed feelings about it and my students have mixed feelings about it so i know it's not just me so bigorexia is bottle it's a form of body dysphoria um specifically looking at the fact that they don't feel like they're bigger big enough and they want to be bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger um and there was a time

probably about 10-15 years ago when we were seeing men who were like quitting their jobs so they could work out more and get bigger and bigger and bigger and then it didn't go away like this thing this this preoccupation with being bigger has not gone away and it's definitely not gone away in the media i'm thinking about some of the ads i've seen recently for movies that are out or coming out and it's still really big men um and when i say big i mean very muscular men and i don't think there's anything wrong with that right except the impact it's going to have on them um but the reason i don't like the term bigorexia is to me it's trying to it's confusing term if you don't know what it is and to me it's it's doing that thing we like to do

where we try to make men's and women's experiences similar like we use the term male menopause which doesn't actually exist and i hate that term um check out that episode um to me bigorexia is trying to make it like anorexia and the two things are completely different so why are we even trying do you I'm curious I know I didn't warn you about this do you have thoughts on that word like I I find I feel like it is romanticizing it instead of calling it body body dysmorphia yeah and yeah instead of ascribing it to something you know especially with the the messaging that boys and men receive big is in it and that's the the aspirational goal so it makes it something

kind of implicitly to achieve is how it lands with me so you don't love it either no good not at all and i'm not trying i mean i've used the term to get people's attention and then we do some education about it so i mean i understand that it's a thing but body dysmorphia sounds a little more clinical because it is but i don't i just i kind of want to get out of that trap of saying bigorexia so i'm going to stop using that term yeah but this idea if you look at the media this idea that men are supposed to be this really ripped you know like 10 pack abs i don't think 10 pack abs are like um not without surgical help or a lot of cgi um and i think i think one of the things that we're seeing for women and I I do hate saying like men and women are on this like

seesaw because that's not what it looks like it's it's not us versus them it's not two different worlds we all live in a world together um and I I feel like sometimes when I'm saying well with women I feel like we're kind of pitting us against each other and that's not what I'm trying to do but I feel like but with all that said I feel like with women we're doing a better job of breaking down what we're seeing you know Pam Anderson going out without makeup is revolutionary and yeah I mean and they tried to rock her like her rocker world in a bad way like to rip her apart and she's just like whatever like this is who I am I mean there are tv shows where um there was an episode of how to get away with murder or how I got away with I may be butchering the title

something something getting how to get away with murder there we go where she like takes off all her makeup on screen and that is a super powerful unveiling moment she's still on screen with some you know with great lighting and maybe sure but i feel like we've done more of that for women like what you're seeing is not real like i know i work with with teachers who are working high school health and they're doing more about breaking down what you see in media is not real and we've had some male actors who have done the same um Zac Efron has done a number of interviews after he did um what was the thing he was in it with uh he was on the beach he was a lifeguard Baywatch thank you wow totally zoned on it and he's totally ripped and he's like I'll

never do that to myself again um you'll hear lots of male actors talk about those scenes are some of the worst ones because they basically have to destroy their body and be horribly miserable for days and they say this but most people aren't getting many men aren't getting that message that this is not real this is not sustainable it's not healthy it's not even how they want to portray themselves but they're still seeing the images in media and so it's not we're not having that discussion with boys the same way of this may be unachievable or unattainable for you for most people. Um, and it's, it may not be healthy for you. There's, even though we're still having the dialogue at some levels, I don't think it's happening the same way as it is with

women. I would agree with that. And I would, because with women, what, what I've noticed over the last hell, just the 10 past 10 years is that there is a focus on the messaging of like, look a lot of this is genetics and then some of it is surgical help um and and in the example of Zac Efron or like the rock the rock has to do a lot a lot to maintain that physique but that is also so I I also want to point out too that there are men who like that is their form of athleticism that is that is their sport and so just it's but it's we want to create the awareness that that it can lead to dysmorphia i'm not saying the rock has dysmorphia i think he comes at it from what i what i see right which is part like one-tenth of his truth likely um but that's not

it's not driven. I don't, it doesn't seem by dysmorphia. However, um, I think whenever a word like that, a word that is, um, or a condition that is meant to describe a dysfunction, especially around body image or some other things, those I think have largely been ascribed to women historically and so that's you know going back to the word bigorexia to get men to buy into the fact that they might have a dysmorphic view of themselves we had to create this word that wouldn't push them away right so so there's that and i don't think i don't think to your point i don't think that um that the language is there for boys and men and there isn't um you know if there's if men are looking at bodybuilders

the amount of things that bodybuilders go through and put their bodies through is is a lot and it's a lot of focus and it's a lot of time and sometimes it's some enhancements that aren't great for your body long-term and it's expensive and based on just their natural frame some bodybuilders will look different than other bodybuilders because there's you know it's like women um for women it's the hourglass frame I think for men it's called an x-frame which is basically an hourglass for men. It's the broad shoulders, strong legs, little waist. So the language is out there. It's just not, it's not as prevalent. And, um, generally I think it's prevalent in those fitness worlds, definitely in the fitness industries. Um, but then that's

the other thing, the industry that pushes all of this and perpetuates it. And social media. I mean, And there's a number of social media people who are like, this is not what I look like. This is a trick of the light. And here's how I do it. Or here's how I, you know, suck it in for the one picture. Or here's how I stand. Right. And here's how I, you know, dehydrate myself for a full day before a body shoot, before

a photo shoot. But we don't. And I don't think this is a men's issue. I think a lot of women also don't get it. Like they hear the message of this isn't real and this probably isn't attainable. And yet they're still setting their sights on things that they're trying to achieve. because those bodies are still celebrated yep absolutely and I think the problem is especially with something diagnosable and body dysmorphia is a diagnosable condition men aren't going in

and talking about it openly I mean we talked about this in the last episode of men's health they're just not going into the doctors so if I'm a guy and I don't like the way I look and I you know it's driving my decisions I'm choosing to put working out over my relationships I'm choosing some unhealthy eating behaviors um to try to get this body but i'm not talking to anyone because i'm not i either don't realize it's a problem or you know if i did realize there's a problem i'm really hesitant to go and have that conversation because men in general are hesitant to go into doctors there's a whole vulnerability piece like this all builds on each other and this is this is the thing like we can't talk about one aspect of this without talking about all the other

pieces about like the not wanting to be feminine um there was a I was having a conversation with someone about eyelashes these little conversations I have um and someone was saying something that eyelashes make someone female and I happen to be talking to someone a male I'm like you have eyelashes like what when did that become a gendered thing and I made a joke like oh like when did it become a gendered thing and then like no lie two to three days later on my social media there are videos of guys who are shaving off their eyelashes yeah because the big thing that we teach men and this and I feel like I kind of want to stop it if you haven't listened to the first episode of men's health stop here go listen the first one come back there's no video there so sorry but

stop it listen come back um but the whole thing is that instead of embracing this new idea of what it means to be masculine it's this I'm gonna not do anything feminine right that's the man box thing is we don't want to do anything feminine so um shaving eyelashes why would you shave your eyelashes um but but this is i think one of the problems is that if we don't have that education we don't have that conversation about you can be a man and look like all these things you can be a super skinny guy like for some of you that's your destiny those are your genetics you're not going to overcome them it doesn't mean you can't be strong and it doesn't mean you can't be healthy it just means you're never going to bulk up naturally but we're missing that conversation

with men and some men like many women do are trying to emulate what they're seeing and it is taking a toll on their physical health and their mental health and also possibly relationships because they're bringing that frustration or they're bringing that i don't want to be feminine but it's it's not just limited to body image it really stretches into other areas of their life. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a big part of it is that there's a silence around it. And, um, and when you internalize something like that, it becomes toxic and it, it does ripple out into other facets of your life, your relationships, your job, your, it can lead to depression it can lead to a level of anxiety how it might unfortunately lead to

suicidal ideation because you're never going to be this image that you've that you've put on a pedestal and and you're robbing yourself unfortunately of your of your humanity the thing that i talked about in my introduction you have a humanity you are more than your physical manifestation you know your your soul you're a human and there's beauty there um so so to hyper fixate on something without understanding what aspects you may be able to attain like you know if you are a slim guy you can be strong but but and find not but and find the strength the emotional strength in that not just physical but emotional strength in that and I know that that's that's a big lift when we're not giving people the space to do that I mean that's men especially

And then the way that it reverberates in male friendships because they've all gotten this message and they all reinforce it with each other because the whole point of this is men's health and we don't give space for men to be human. so when we don't give them space for their humanity and to be human it starts to impact external relation not just internal because now you've you've you've created an environment where they'll internalize this and beat themselves up more than likely not not seek the um more healthier coping strategies and and help right because men don't like to go to the doctor because that's weak um and so then it starts to go into other facets of their lives and a big way that i see this kind of masculinity impacting humanity not just the mem but is in relationships. And I'm referring to hetero relationships, relationships with women.

Because if you've got this, if you've hyper fixated on this notion of what it means to be masculine, and you don't feel like you're achieving it, you're going to find someone who is less masculine than you to assert your picture of masculinity on them. And that can be very dangerous all over the place and i want to make i want to make sure that we're not we're not telling men i'm trying to figure out how to say this without having this be the clip that like goes viral a lot of times what men are doing they're doing without the thought process behind it and so i don't want to excuse what they're doing they're repeating behaviors that they've seen they're being influenced by the media they're being influenced by their friends they're being

influenced they're being influenced at some point you have to take responsibility right for the things that you're doing but I think that I think that women are kind of ahead in that process of being like wait does this thing does this idea does this concept work for me no it does not so I'm going to move on and I think men don't get the opportunity to do that kind of emotional deep dive because talking about emotions you know that that's going to make you vulnerable and that's feminine so i don't want to excuse men i think that men are repeating behaviors that now that we're looking at them realize didn't no longer work in this day and age and i also want to point out we are not we are definitely not suggesting that the lift is on women for this yes yes just

wanted to throw that in but i do think we need to be cognizant of like women have made that jump a lot faster and I don't think it's our job to turn around and educate men about okay you need to do the same thing but I think we maybe have more patience because we have more of networks that are having these conversations um you know if you are in a relationship if you're female if we're in a situation and we call each other and we're like oh this is happening and I don't know what to do and we kind of talk and we kind of process it I we have each other in that situation to kind of talk it through and realize what's going on men don't usually do that in their friendships and so all they know is that the script has been flipped and they don't understand

why and so they're going to the one emotion that they're allowed which is anger um and and again we're not saying this is excusable we're not saying that um you can't learn we're not saying that we're not saying that that that's okay but we i i want to say i don't know if we i want to say that I understand why men are a little slower catching up you know they've been taught since day one that this is how the world is going to be the world got flipped and no one kind of gave them the by the way things have changed and so they're operating on the same script and even if they do have questions they may not even know how to be like but but I don't know like okay this changed but now what um so I do want to acknowledge that we are seeing some men change I am hearing about

this in some of my friends relationships and family relationships that we are seeing men who are kind of adapting to the new thing but if you never learned how or you're afraid to have those conversations because that makes you vulnerable which for a lot of men is one of the scariest things they can do I mean all people let's not just say men being vulnerable is terrifying and so it's the well if I if I don't know what to do and I don't want to be vulnerable I'm just going to do it 10 times harder right right um but it does i mean when when men are sad in a relationship and they don't have the language and they see themselves as the protector and they don't have to say help i'm sad i'm isolated i'm depressed i'm lonely and we see this happening with men

especially as men hit retirement age yeah you know if you've been taught your entire life that as a man you're supposed to be the breadwinner and the caretaker and there's now you're retired and there's no one to caretake because if you had kids they've left the home it it screws with your self-image and if you don't have the language you become sad and depressed and you isolate and that's going to impact your relationships with everyone around you not just spouses if you have them but children friends family and that that to me is where the fear comes in because I want men to have happy healthy lives and I don't want them suffering through the depression and the anxiety and the fear and the isolation because that's unfortunately when we

see a spike in death by suicide is for men after they have retired because they've kind of lost that identity and that's a very I was about to say it's a very extreme look at what happens but it's not that extreme it's it's happening um and the numbers on that are terrifying i'm not saying that every man who's sad and depressed is gonna die by suicide but what i am saying is that we have to and i don't know how to do it this is the problem this is what i hate doing i hate raising a problem and then being like there's your problem i have no idea how to solve it i very rarely do that but this is i mean i don't especially at a time where women are already feeling like they're doing everything and acknowledging that out loud you know like

this is all the shit I do in a relationship but your partner if they trust you is going to come to help you and or is going to come to you for help and I think that's a really like how do you play that role if I want to help you I love you I care about you I made the decision to be with you I understand you're struggling but also now I feel like you're asking me to do one more thing and I feel like that's where it gets really difficult well especially and I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole, because I think we could quickly get there. But especially if it's been a relationship that you've been in for 20 plus years, and you've got certain emotional habits with each other. And likely in that situation, the female partner has been the one

to be like, did you make the appointment? Are you going to the appointment? What did they say? What is the follow up? Did you pick up your meds, all of that stuff. And so there's something to be cognizant of there, but, but finding for the female partner, I think what I, what I kind of heard you say was, you know, let's find a way for you to have your boundary, but also be a safe space for them to say the thing out loud so that they can start their journey. Right. Because that's related what it is. It's not the lift to do the work. It's the safe space to be able to say it out loud and i because they may not have any other space to say it right because two typically two male friends are not going to have the conversation if i'm sad and i'm frustrated and i don't know

what to do with my life um and so if if your male partner is saying that to you i don't think you realize how much trust they have in you at that point to be able to say some of those words out loud yeah the problem is if they're not like i can see where that'd be really frustrating and and folks would be like, I can't, I can't do this anymore. And then the other thing that I see a lot with families, relationships and families is continuing this, this idea of what it means to be a man for their children and not just their boy children. Um, when you, when you tell little girls, boys do this, what you're inherently saying is you can't. Boys get to be strong. Boys get to be active. Boys get to do this. Girls don't. And so for me, the big thing about the male and the masculinity piece of this, especially in relationships, is kind of making men own what they're saying. So they're not continuing to do the next generation what was done to them.

Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it comes to mind is a clip that I saw of Barack and Michelle Obama having a conversation about how how they they were talking about how he probably wouldn't have been the same kind of father to a son that he has been to his daughters. And I think we've talked about some of these stories as well with other kind of male, male leadership voices. But acknowledging that if I had had a son and I saw him crying, I would have said something along the lines of man up. Don't cry. You're fine. Suck it up. Something like that. Whereas if they see their daughter crying, it's what's what's going on. Let me hold you. Let me keep you safe. So I think that's an important acknowledgement in one tiny step in media that if we can have men acknowledging, you know, if I had done that or I did this with my son and I caught myself and I tried to work on it, I think that's an important, a significant step. yeah and i think we are seeing that i think i know i'm seeing it more and it may just be my

algorithm in my social media but there are more and more of like men who are showing clips of other men saying stupid shit and i know yeah i watched one of the same people um and then you know them being like this is why it's wrong and this is why we need to you know this is what you're actually doing this is what you're actually saying this is why it's a problem so i think we are seeing that more and more. The problem is, I'm not sure if that's trickling down to conversations in the real world. And I don't think it's changing across the board what we're seeing in mass media. And so, yes, I may see this on my, you know, my social media for the 5-10 minutes that I'm kind of scrolling as I'm waiting for things to happen. But then I go out in the real

world, and I'm seeing the same old traditional messaging. And so I don't know how we break that cycle on a larger scale it would be nice so if we could it would be nice i think currently um there is such a polarization of of these two ideals that i think right now it's difficult and in some ways i think it's a little bit of a primordial roar of this hyper masculinity space um because it i think it's a sign that it is kind of waning because there are people and uh yeah fingers crossed fingers crossed but i think that the the coming generation the generation coming into adulthood there are just things that they aren't standing for anymore Yeah. And, and I think this other set, the other side of that is trying to hold on to these great

ideals that were never great to begin with. Because if you look at the life expense expectancy of those, when those ideals were mainstream, wasn't, it wasn't great, especially for men. Right. Yeah. So, um, so I think there's, it's, it's just generational shifts. You know, I know our generation tried something with the next generation and that generation spoke up a little bit more. And I feel like that's the sense that I get. And so it may take a while as most things do, but but I think there there are shifts and I think I can see it coming because I know that for my male students I hear them talking about mental health in a way that nobody in my generation that I remember I mean I feel like we're all talking about it differently now

but male or female I don't think we were having those conversations at that age so I think there is a shift coming. I just, I just want it to happen faster. I want it to trickle up. I want it to trickle up to our generation and above because, because that's really as, as we're aging and coming into certain health challenges, retreating into yourself doesn't help. no and it's not gonna add or maintain any kind of quality and and that's just kind of that's sad and i don't like it and i do want to say i don't i feel like whenever i talk about communication because we kind of slid into communication i feel like whenever we talk about communication everyone's like do we have to talk about

everything i'm like no we don't not everything needs to be talked about ad nauseum sometimes you can just do a yes or no answer and sometimes isolation is okay if you know you're doing i don't even like to use the term isolation if you want to be by yourself for a bit to kind of process it before you have those conversations or you need to figure out what it means to you before you move on i feel like when i talk about communication someone's like why do we have to talk about everything i'm like you don't not everything needs to be discussed and not everything needs to be a 10-hour discussion and sometimes it's okay to take that time to be by yourself and think about like what am I even thinking like weight's going through my mind but then it's the

it's the stepping out from that and having that conversation with others once you're in that place it's it's not using isolation as a solution it's it may be part of the process for you and I think that's where the challenge is for a lot of men it's that they even see communication as I don't want to say feminine because that's not what it is but we have been studying how men communicate how everyone communicates for decades and what we know is that men use less words and instead of saying that we say women use more words like women have to keep talking women are using more words to make sure that they're being understood men use less words because they're trying not to communicate more than they have to

and they use communication as to establish dominance in a lot of ways so if I'm having a conversation with you it's not just a conversation I also need to make sure I come out on top yeah I know this I know the science behind it but I will tell you when I'm in the middle of a fight with someone the science goes out the window and I 100% you know and I'm retreating back to the to what feels good for me in the moment and how I want to communicate and so the question is like how do we get people to understand it how do I even get you to understand that the language that you're using is is coming out of this very gendered way of thinking i have i have had very deep meaningful conversations with some men who will stop and

apologize for talking so much and i'm like no that's like you're telling a really deep meaningful like there's a lot of layers to the story you're giving me because you haven't talked about it you need to give all the layers um so even when we think of like just communicating as being a feminine oh there those are quotes a feminine quality like how do we even break through those barriers and so i think that when we're talking about men's sorry i just lifted that microphone i think when we're talking about men's health we need to realize that it's it's so multi-layered it's so multifaceted it's even the fact that saying help may be a violation of everything they believe to be masculine and that's why it's super complicated yeah and we're not going to fix

it in two episodes and we're not we're not we're not but we're introducing language is the hope here and just bringing it back to you know the the core idea in this episode around body image and what that ripples out into um as far as men's mental health um disordered eating um the physical health impact not not just the body image but lengths that they may go to and then this this vulnerability um and and being able to feel like they have some someone somewhere some space to find support if they're kind of if they're going down this this rabbit hole of potential body dysmorphia or thinking i'm never going to amount to anything because i don't look a certain way or I can't achieve this. Um, just being really mindful of that and then, and being

mindful of for parents out there, um, the messaging that you're giving implicitly to your sons and daughters, um, because your daughters are going to see how you're talking to their brother and they're going to begin to adopt that and their expectations of men that they encounter. and so it just it's just really really really really being mindful and from as much as you can i can't imagine what this is like for parents but what they're consuming on social media and and programming and streaming and stuff like that just trying to if you if you start to hear them talk a certain way um that is not healthy just be like whoa let's bring that back where are you hearing this right why is this resonating and you don't have to say it like that why is this

resonating excuse me 13 why yeah why did why did that you know why did that appeal to you or whatever so you so you can start unpacking it for both of you so you're kind of nipping it in the bud for them and you are also unpacking I think some of the things that you grew up with and that you may already be working on or not working on but you have a concern because because of how they're speaking all of a sudden or something yeah any other thoughts i'll be wrapping up i have a few uh yes okay um there's there's a few final thoughts because i i mean we're gonna keep talking about men's health as it comes up but it's not i don't think we're gonna do any more dedicated well you never know maybe 150 why are you committing us to something um from a from a

mental health standpoint tying into the body image tying into vulnerability tying into all of that and this is just because i have seen the numbers if if someone is withdrawing if someone is saying words that are concerning you about their mental health if someone is expressing the need or the want for it to be over please take them seriously what we know about men for mental health this isn't necessarily tied to body image but since we're wrapping up the topic you'll you'll allow me this um it's almost a rate of four to one the amount of death by suicide for men compared to women and what we know is in those situations where someone has died by suicide and we go back and we you know we start like checking in with friends and family they were giving warning signs

and they were saying things that were concerning people people just weren't giving it the space or the time please take those seriously when you hear that when someone says I'm not good enough I won't never be good enough I don't you know I don't measure up I don't want to do this I can't this is too much this is too hard please take them seriously and if you don't feel like you can help them like try to connect them to help but if someone is saying that to you they feel like you're safe enough to say it and that's and that's a big thing like I understand that women are finally saying there's a lot of load that we have been doing and we're tired of it you know we're tired of doing all the work around the house we're tired of it being minimized we're

tired we're tired and i get it and i agree with you but but if they're come if your male partner is coming to you and saying i don't know what to do please help help get my thing is please help them get on the right track it's not your responsibility to keep them moving but if they don't even know how to connect to the doctor because that's never been their responsibility helping them to figure out how to do it and then making it their job like not following up and not did you send it not getting but but them asking how do i do this or can you help me is is a really important first step and it's it's showing how much they trust you in that space to do that yeah um and the other thing is and this comes up a lot when i talk about men's

health is for women specifically stop mocking men who are breaking down those barriers there was a great yeah there was a great tweet back when i was still on twitter um and then i'd seen it repeated by like 20 other people so i don't know who the original author it was but like don't praise male artists but then mock your son when he wants to take dance lessons you know don't spend millions of dollars or thousands of dollars on male designers but make fun of the kid that you the male kid you know who wants to sew um we're all in this together and and sometimes i find that women some women do just as much damage by upholding that man box yeah um as the men do and so if you have a little boy who's like i want to play with dolls and i want to dress them and i

want to create clothes like don't don't make fun of them don't this isn't like encourage that maybe they'll grow out of it and become designers and maybe they'll just grow out of it and do something completely different but but but making sure that everybody is is trying to help everyone else get out of that man box because i do think it's an everybody issue yes yeah i think that's it there was one more thing i was going to say but i've decided not to oh okay you sure yes okay i think that's opening i think that's i think that's not closing the episode i think it's opening a whole nother one yeah and there we go i don't want to do that all right everyone well i want to thank you all for joining us on this episode of unzipping taboos if you liked

what you heard and saw please subscribe leave a review share this episode with someone who might be ready to unzip a few of these taboos with us and now that we're on video feel free to wave back or even shout at the screen, we won't hear you, but we'll love the vibe for sure. If you have questions or topics you want us to dive into, please head to the link in the episode description and share what's on your mind. And we want to give a very special shout out to Allie O'Brien for incredible theme music. Thank you so much, Allie. So until next time, see you soon. Keep the conversation going. Keep unzipping those taboos and everyone take care. I'll see you next time.