Up and Vanished - Case Evidence 07.10.17

Episode Date: July 11, 2017

In this episode we hear a conversation that involves Bo Dukes. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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19 plus to wager. O-N only. Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to any operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. We have breaking, although not unexpected, news in the case of the state of Georgia versus Bo Dukes.

On today's date, July 10th, 2017, he was supposed to have appeared before a judge in the Superior Court of Ben Hill County to be arraigned on the indictment that was returned against him back on June 19th, 2017, by a grand jury in connection with his role in the Tara Grinstead investigation, in connection with his alleged role in the destruction of evidence and the cover-up of the murder of Tara Grinstead. However, prior to today's date, by and through his attorney, he filed a document called a waiver of arraignment. And in that document, he pleads not guilty to each and every count of the indictment. And he also says that he demands a jury trial. Now, I know that that sounds maybe to some people to be a bit ridiculous if they believe the evidence against him is overwhelming. And it may sound really ridiculous that he's demanding a jury trial if the evidence against him is overwhelming. But it's important to keep in mind that this is actually very common, and it's really the way things are usually done. In criminal cases,

they don't normally wind up with a guilty plea at arraignment. An arraignment is simply the first step in the formal criminal justice process, and it comes following an indictment. The purpose of an arraignment is simply to put someone on notice of what they're formally being charged with. Back in the old days, before people could commonly read and write, they would literally go before the judge. The judge would read the indictment out loud in open court to the defendant and also give them a copy of it so that they could later take it to a lawyer if and when they obtain one. In the modern era, however, arraignments are largely unnecessary,

especially if people are represented by attorneys because, let's face it, he already knew what he was charged with and he already had a copy of the indictment. And it's fair to assume that not only does Bo, but certainly his lawyer, knows how to read and write the English language. So it's really not necessary to go through this formal process of having him come in front of a judge and have the indictment read out loud. And as for the part about demanding a jury trial, that really is simply for the purpose of preserving all of his legal rights. So he's pled not guilty. He's demanded a jury trial. He's not waived anything. He simply preserved all of

his legal rights. And that's what his lawyer would be expected to do. A lawyer is expected to protect a client's legal rights. And at this point in the process, it's too early to say what's going to happen ultimately with the resolution of these charges. So while there's still some element of uncertainty, it's prudent for his lawyer to protect all of his legal rights. You have to bear in mind that a guilty plea can be changed at any point in time. If Bo is still, in fact, a cooperating witness and if there is a deal in place for Bo Dukes, this changes nothing. If there's a deal, he still can take advantage of it. And in all likelihood, the indictment really needs to be hanging over his head so that they can use it as leverage, because what they want him to do is to continue cooperating. And what they would want him to do would be to testify truthfully against Ryan. So this is nothing really that you can read a lot

into, with one small possible exception. It's interesting to me that on June 19th of 2017, the district's attorney presented this case to a grand jury, which means that Bo did not waive the grand jury process. If he was truly cooperating, he simply could have allowed the district attorney to file what's called an accusation, which would do the same thing as an indictment. It would start the formal court process. It would allege the exact same offenses, but it would bypass the formal grand jury process and not really make the DA work so hard. If I were representing him and he was cooperating, I would have told the district attorney that we would waive formal grand jury process and they could simply file the accusation. So really, what's the point of a formal grand jury

if you know what's going to happen in the end? So if there's any tea leaves left to be read, it is the fact that this case was presented to a grand jury and that the defendant, Bo Dukes, did not waive grand jury and let the DA file an accusation. If Bo is, in fact, still a cooperating witness, this indictment will stand in place without really any further movement on it until the resolution of the charges against Ryan. Then, and only then, would Bo be able to take advantage of any deal he may have with the state. If there is no deal, however, what would come next would be pretrial motions. If the defense believes that there's anything that was done improperly, they could ask for evidence to be suppressed or excluded

from trial. They could ask for the indictment to be quashed. There's a lot of different things that the defense could do pre-trial in terms of filing various motions in an effort to defend Bo Dukes. Then following the resolution of any pre-trial motions filed either by the defense or by the state, then there would be a trial. And of course, at that trial, the state would bear the burden of proving him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt as to each and every element of the offenses alleged. So basically, to wrap all this up, what this really is is a mere formality. It marks the beginning of the formal judicial process against Bo Dukes. There's nothing at all unusual about it.

In fact, it's the way it's done in the overwhelming majority of felony criminal cases. done in the overwhelming majority of felony criminal cases. Waving arraignment, waving a formal reading of the charges, and pleading not guilty is the way that it's done in almost every single case. And by demanding a jury trial, he's done nothing more than protected his legal rights. So as he stands right now, he's presumed to be innocent, and all of his legal rights remain intact, and nothing has been waived. If you want to put this in perspective, just last week in my own practice, I filed similar waivers of arraignment in a handful of cases, probably five or six. And in all of those cases, I fully expect that they will be resolved at some point in the future by a negotiated plea of guilty.

But we're not there yet. We're not ready to enter that plea. The negotiations have not taken place. I have not reviewed all the evidence. So I want to make sure we're not overlooking any legal or factual defenses. So by pleading not guilty and demanding a jury trial, I've basically protected my client's rights so that we can go through that process of having the discussion with the prosecutor, engaging in the plea bargaining, engaging in the negotiations, and hoping that we come up with a resolution of the case that is fair to each side.

Also, to keep it in perspective, just last week, I told a prosecutor that they could go ahead and feel free to file an accusation and we would waive grand jury indictment because we already had a case worked out. We already knew what the result was going to be. We knew what the sentence was going to be. So there was no point in having the prosecutor send the case to grand jury because it would simply delay being able to get the plea accomplished. But in the end, this is simply routine. This is simply something that would be expected and doesn't really surprise me at all, except for that one little fact that the case did go to grand jury, which makes me wonder, does Bo still have a deal in place or is he in fact going

to fight this tooth and nail? A few days after Ryan Duke was arrested, Bo Dukes began actively engaging in the discussion board community on the Up and Vanish website. He would talk openly with other listeners about his involvement in the crime out in the open on a public forum. Despite the fact that there was a gag order in place, Bo Dukes just couldn't seem to help himself and continued talking. On March 8th, just a few days after Bo Dukes just couldn't seem to help himself and continued talking. On March 8th, just a few days after Bo Dukes was arrested for his involvement, he made contact with a woman on Twitter who I'm going to call Sally and engaged in a series of direct messages. The conversation began casually, but over the course of several days, he began divulging many details about his

version of the story. Days turned into weeks, weeks turned into months, and their conversation continued. After a few months, Sally ceased all communication with him, and she shared with me the entire transcript of her conversation with Bo. And today, you get to hear it. This is Case Evidence. Experience basketball like never before with BetMGM, an authorized gaming partner of the NBA. Ready to shoot your shot? We've made the BetMGM experience more immersive and fun for all types of basketball fans. Being on the sidelines is one thing.

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Most are supportive, though. Are you close to your mom? How did you tell her? I told her a few days ago, actually, before I was arrested, and it wasn't easy. No, I can't imagine it would be. I'm at a loss for words myself, honestly. Yeah, it's a conversation I've had to have with many people now. How did it get to that? I know it's a tough question, but one that seems to have a simple answer. What do you mean? Ask simple questions. It's okay. Everyone wants to know why. Even me. Well, I wondered what happened in your life that led you to this set of circumstances. I mean, all these have resulted in where you are now. It's complicated. Like, really long and complicated.

Yes, I'm sure it's long and complicated, but you seem to want to talk, though. Why is that? Well, let's see. Where should we start? That is a response I wasn't expecting. I've always wanted to talk about it. It's kind of the same reason I've told so many people about this. Same reason I pissed off my lawyer. I'd say less is more for lawyers.

Where do you want to start? I'm not into downplaying anything. You have a major battle on your hands. Okay, where do you want to start? I'm not into downplaying anything. You have a major battle on your hands. Okay, where do you think we should start? Well, did you think it would never come out? I mean, what happened, that is? I wasn't sure. After a while, I didn't think so.

But I just kept telling people, so I wasn't sure. It was early in the morning, by the way. Wait, so you wanted it to come out? Why not just go see the PD to start with? But at 7 a.m., I mean, you've had to have done some serious self-medicating to cope. I was protecting my friend and myself. You used my truck, you put her on my family's land. Hell, Nancy Grace was in Osceola before I even knew for sure.

So how good of friends were you two? Why did you agree to help him? I mean, that's a big ask, even from a close friend. It's not what I'd do. But somewhere deep inside, you had to know it was all wrong. Well, he was my best friend. Yes, it was wrong, and I knew that then. But there was a lot more at play at that time. My grandfather was still alive. It would have been a huge political scandal if she was found there. Ryan could have easily framed me, and he asked me for

help, so... Well, while we speak now, when you're able to, try to tell me why. What really happened that night? Why her? Why that specific night? And yeah, I read about your grandfather. Newt Hudson? Yeah, that's him. And honestly, there's nothing I can tell you, Evan, already told the GBI. I don't know if I want you to tell me. Tell you what? Why? Yes. What the hell happened that night? Why someone ended up dead? I'm surprised you even want to discuss it. Ryan would never tell me. I asked him if he went there to rape or kidnap her.

He denied it. He could never tell me why. And GBI accepted that? Are you serious? Ryan messaged me right when I started talking to the GBI. I had conversation with him and the plan was I was going to wear a wire for them. Jason was the lead GBI agent in the investigation. I don't know who tipped them. I heard either yours or Ryan's ex-girlfriend or something. But you seem to be portrayed as the bad guy and Ryan took the fall. Was that the deal? And yeah, I know who Jason is. Well, it was Brooke. Okay, yeah, I thought so. Or someone close to her anyway. By the way, would you say you love Brooke? I personally think she loves you very much, it seems.

I love her more than anything I can imagine. So you told her? Yeah. Who else knew? Many others? Didn't seem to be a closely guarded secret, yet clearly it was. I had confessed to many people. I don't think most of them believed me, and my ex used to use it to blackmail me. Well, are you angry at Brooke then? No, I'm not angry at Brooke. So basically you admitted your part, then the idea was to bring Ryan in? After I took them to Fitzgerald, yeah. And they offered you a deal? I'm guessing remains were found and evidence was linked almost definitely to Ryan, right? I knew you had to have taken them there.

Was that field plowed every year for 11 years, Beau? Well, they gave me immunity, yeah. I don't know about remains or evidence. They wouldn't tell me that. And it wasn't directly in the field. It's a stand of pine trees where we did it. And she was burnt, right? Yeah, she was. Okay, pine trees. Sorry. I thought it was pecan trees. How long after she was burnt, Beau? From when Ryan did what he did? It was four days. The area is pretty much behind the orchard. Shit. Four days? Why so long? I know from my time in forensics that people don't burn too well. The fire is never, well, it's never hot enough.

It makes a terrible mess. Was Ryan there then? Yeah, he was. Of course, I wasn't going to do that on my own. There was a huge stack of seasoned spitwood there and fat lighter. That's when I found out. Still, that had to take a few goes to burn, right? Did you guys then try and bury the remains there? What's the whole conspiracy about a pond?

No, we didn't bury anything and no pond involved either. So you just left a burn pit with fragments? Yeah, there was probably fragments. It was a really hot fire. Well, there's always stuff left. Scattered, no doubt, but unless a body is incinerated at a really high temperature, there's something left. But after 11 plus years, there wouldn't be much. It'd be hard to find. But they brought an anthropologist, I read. Yeah, I took them out there. I hope they found her. I'm not okay with what I did, look, but I'm okay. Who started the fire, Beau? It ain't easy to remember, but I feel like I would have made him do it. But it's all

kind of a blur. I can't remember exactly. Did it make you angry? Very angry. Did it make you cry? Later that day, yeah, I did. So when Ryan told you he killed her, it was four days after. What took him so long? He told me the day after, early morning, but I didn't believe him. His brother who lived with us at the time came home Monday and he told me she was missing. I

told him what Ryan told me and it was like it just didn't register on him. I confronted Ryan that Wednesday, and he showed me. Jesus. Where was she? In the orchard. So he just dumped her there? When? Yeah, that night. And he used your truck?

Yes. Well, how'd he get it? Well, we were roommates, and he didn't have a vehicle at the time. Wait, so is that the mysterious black truck? Nah, it was a white truck. How did that get missed? And yet a black truck has been speculated about for so long. So he didn't use her car at all?

Not that I know of. How often have you and Ryan talked about this over the years? We lived together for a couple more months, then I left. I saw him once before going to Korea, though. So he tells you a day after, like Sunday, and you don't believe him. But by Monday, she's reported missing and you confront him on that Wednesday. What about Monday and Tuesday when you knew she was missing? And he's told you on the Sunday that he killed her, but you don't believe him? Yeah, it was it was really late.

Where are you, by the way, right now? Osceola? Are you at your mom's house? No, I have a place elsewhere. It's luckily still a secret. And hey, I know this is off topic, but are you married? I don't want to talk about my private life. Okay, okay. How many brothers and sisters do you have? One brother. I'm good with my mom and brother. I guess you lost a lot of friends through this, huh? Probably. I'm not sure. I can't really go anywhere right now or talk to many people at all. How long will you have to go to prison for? I guess your lawyer has given you an indication, right? I probably won't go to prison. Immunity. Although not sure immunity means exactly the same thing here as it does there. Suspended sentence, maybe? Probably get the charges dismissed. What? Really?

Yeah, there are some procedural issues and some other stuff, and I'm slightly worried about that, if I'm being honest. I'm not really going out in public right now, and certainly not in Osceola. Do you think your relationship with Brooke can survive this? Look, I sure hope so. We've made it a long ways already. I actually got pretty close to trying to join the French Foreign Legion a few weeks ago. Still an option, I sure hope so. We've made it a long ways already. I actually got pretty close to trying to join the French Foreign Legion a few weeks ago. Still an option, I guess. Will there be any further arrests, do you think? I sure doubt it. Seems like you've worked out a good deal. No

prison. Seems unbelievable. Is Ryan likely to roll over on you, though? You've got to face the music sometime. I have no idea. I'm under the impression he has confessed, but I'm not sure. Is he sick? He looks terrible. I'm not sure, but he does look bad. Yeah. Is it kidney issues? He told me a year ago he was having issues. He just messaged me out of the blue one night. I hadn't spoken to him in nine years. Is it true that he was a meth head or is that BS? He wasn't when I knew him. Yeah, we have meth heads here too. I do think keeping a secret like that for so long really messes with your health. What about you from keeping this secret? Are you okay? My physical health is fine. Emotionally and mentally,

it's been tough to deal with. Did you ever go to college? Yeah, I did for a year and recently was taking classes, but left kind of due to this. So how often do you see Brooke? Or do you guys live together? We see each other pretty often. I was convinced it was a troll and not you on the Up and Vanished message board, by the way. I'm probably still not convinced. Why did you get on there? I don't know.

I just couldn't stop myself. I guess I wanted to try to defend some of my actions. It's really hard to just sit back and see some of the crazy theories and complete falsehoods out there. It was terrible. Well, it's terrible for everybody. You have to know what happened. I mean, I don't really care why Ryan did it

because there's no reason that can ever justify hurting someone like this. Like I said before, I don't even know why. He just would never tell me why. Sometimes what happens is people don't come out and directly say or explicitly reveal exactly what happened. It's better not to. But I know better than anyone involved in something like this.

You actually always do know why. That's part of the curse when you hang on to things so long. Well, I think I know why he did it. But he explicitly denied it when I asked him. And I said it's not a huge significance to me right now, but it will all come out in the end. It always does. I sure hope so. Okay. So what I'm curious about is how did you manage to cut a deal with Jason? Because this was huge pressure on the GBI and it's unusual that they wouldn't charge you with a more serious crime, even though you

did lead them to where the remains were. I mean, deals are often made, but this one sounds too good to be true. It's just unusual in such a high-profile case. Am I correct in assuming that perhaps your DNA was not found anywhere? I just can't see how you could crack a deal like this if it was almost a certainty you were not in her car or in her house. So for me, I think it can't be because of your previous criminal history. No, I was never at her house or in her car. The GBI didn't really know much before I talked to them.

I gave them his name, described what he told me happened that night, and an account of all my involvement, which happened later. The location and potential testimony, trial, all those things. Who cleaned up the house? Nobody that I know of. I actually heard her sister straightened up, but that was probably after the cops were there. It just seems impossible that she was killed inside the house. There was very little to suggest someone had been there, let alone Ryan. Where did he kill her? Ryan told me he killed her in her bed, that he used a card to

trip the lock on her door to get in and came in while she was asleep. So what do you think his motive was? I think it was sexual. But like I say, he denied that to me. It's such a small town, I can't believe this went unsolved for so long. I mean, why does he pick someone so high profile in the town? He didn't know her aside from high school. I didn't really think so at the time, but looking back, it's the only thing that makes sense to me. You two were best friends.

Best friends always know the dark sides of us, and we all have a dark side, even me. Everyone is high profile in a small town, I suppose. Well, that's true, but she was definitely a more prominent person than a lot of other females in the town. There's no doubt about that. True, and I think that's why he knew she was alone. You've lived with him. Did he have any relationship with her? Because if he didn't, and he knew so much about her, was he stalking her? I mean, do you know if he had a dark side

sexually? He was your best friend. I don't think he had any relationship with her. I don't think he was stalking her either. And honestly, I didn't think he had any unusual sexual kinks. So why? It seems a very random thing to just have that idea pop into your head on a Saturday night. Can I ask you a confronting question, Beau? I think only Ryan can answer that. And yeah, sure. Go ahead. So why is it a reasonably common opinion that Ryan is the good guy and you're the bad guy? I feel sure that if you were in the house or in her car or whatever, that you would be sitting where Ryan currently is. But I have to wonder why a person like Ryan previously was or is now would do this.

It's not like he was sleepwalking. I mean, why do people say it was you who did it? I think Ryan got a lot of sympathy from the court appearance. My family has a lot of enemies in town politically and in business. I'm probably just the better story too. It seems like Ryan has been basically living under a rock for the last decade. I have a past people can read about, you know? Look, there's a part of me that understands why anyone continues to conceal a crime for so long. I don't agree with it, but it's fear that drives a lot of maladaptive behaviors.

But if you didn't do it, why not come clean earlier? You could have gotten the same or similar deal. I was afraid. I didn't think it would work out like this. I only lived in Osceola for three years. I moved there sophomore year of high school. Even my friends aren't there anymore. They're all over the world.

I get that you were afraid. And I assume the GBI knew that as well. But they were hard on you. Also, it does seem possibly true about Ryan living under a rock, but I wouldn't really know. What was he like before this happened? I mean, were you shocked by what he did? No, the GBI has been great through this. Plus, I had told several people about this and could verify it's what I told them some years ago. Ryan was a pretty normal guy. His family wasn't well off. He was a good guy.

And yeah, I was incredibly shocked and angry. Are you going to give an interview to Payne Lindsay? Never. Have you ever thought of apologizing privately? I truly think that you would feel much better. I would suggest this to any patient of mine. Their lives and their family have been ruined as well. Yeah, I'm planning on it. I've already asked the GBI to try to get a meeting with me and with Tara's family. They're open to it apparently when the gag order is lifted, that is. Well, I really hope that you'll do it because it'll help you find some sort of peace. You'll never truly be able to put this behind you, but you might find some comfort knowing that you tried to do the right thing. I don't know. By the way, I never believed this

story of people threatening Godwin and Ocilla. It's ridiculous. Even if you write to Harper and Dykes, that would be a start. Sometimes it's easier to put things in writing because face-to-face is just too difficult. That's actually a good idea. I used some pretty self-destructive ways to deal with this for a long time. I'm trying to make a lot of changes. I think that maybe all you need to do is say at the end of each letter that you might be willing to meet with them if they found it helpful. But right now, you're doing the most you can. In the future, your confidence might allow you to meet them. It's like that when I talk to people about this, it's shocking for everyone else.

To me, it happened 11 years ago. I'm just desensitized to it now. You would be desensitized quite a lot after all this time and keeping it suppressed, but it must have eaten away at you every single day. It's not something most people could hold inside. So take me back to when Ryan told you about Tara. Why did you take till Wednesday to do something when he had told you the day after he did it? And even though you didn't believe him, you knew on Monday she was missing. I didn't want to believe him. His brother told me she was missing on Monday and I told his brother then that Ryan told me he killed her on Sunday. I wanted it not to be true, but by Wednesday, I realized I had to confront him about it. That's when he took me to

the orchard. Nothing much ever really shocked me. So he killed her Sunday, not Saturday night? Yeah, the guilt and secrets have manifested in all sorts of unhealthy things. It was early Sunday morning before sunrise. How did he get in? And what about her dog? Like I said before, he used a car to pick the lock. It was a big German shepherd. Did he walk over there?

He didn't say anything to me about the dog. I'm assuming it was outside and he took my truck. We lived maybe 15 miles from there. Okay, why do you think he went? I know you said that it must have been sexual, but why? And why her? Did he have sexual issues? Did he not have girlfriends?

I mean, that's a big risk. What if she'd had a guy there? He had to have been watching her? I really don't know. I just think he picked her because she was beautiful and she lived alone. I think he would have seen any other vehicles there if there were any, and I don't think he had any sexual issues. He rarely had a girlfriend.

No girlfriend? He was a really good-looking guy, I think. Was he into pornography? Like, in a big way? Status means a lot in this place, and he didn't have any. And, well, he was kind of short. And, no, I don't think he was. Not big time, at least. Yeah, I understand about the status thing. Was he ever violent with other people? Even like other guys?

No, he wasn't. So what's your gut feeling? Did he go there to kill her? Or was it just an unfortunate accident? My feeling is he went there to kill her. He was into serial killer movies. It was really strange. So they say he strangled her with an electrical lamp cable. Is there any truth to that?

No. He told me he used his hands. That's certainly what the arrest warrant or whatever you can call it seemed to indicate. Serial killer movies, though, that's interesting. Zodiac, seven movies like that. Serial killer movies. Okay, so it was your idea to burn the body? How did all that happen? It was on your family's land, so why didn't you move the body somewhere else? He took me to the body. Yes, it was on my family's land. Well, how did you come up with a plan to burn her body? There was a huge search going on and this place was already pretty remote. There also just happened to be a huge stack of fire and this place was already pretty remote.

There also just happened to be a huge stack of firewood right there. I thought completely getting rid of it was the best option after I stopped freaking out, that is. Also, I realized I could easily be implicated then. Use my truck and put her on my family's orchard. So what's all this stuff about Snapdragon Road then? I have no clue. Something Godwin came up with, I think. That's not surprising. You must have freaked out. Jesus, did you guys hang around? I'm thinking you had to go back and check. The heat is never hot enough. I saw a body when I was at a hospital once as a student that had been burnt alive in a car accident. It was in the morgue when I went

down. They just don't disintegrate well at all, even with the fuel accelerant. What did you guys do to the body before you started the fire? Leaving it intact would not have been an option for burning it, I would think. It took two days and no, the body was intact. This was a lot of wood and what I guess we call fat lighter. I'm not sure if you have it there. It's old pines that have the tar still in the wood, and it's incredibly flammable. Holy crap. How did your uncle not see smoldering for two days? Or the smell? Ugh, this is too much for me. I mean, did you guys just leave it? You couldn't have risked that, surely? It was in some pines behind the orchard. It's a big area, and nobody would have gotten close. The company owned like 2,000 acres then, I think, and we were just lucky nobody was in that orchard those days.

Jesus, have you had counseling where you've even remotely hinted about this? You had to go back, though. There are always remnants and there is always a need to disguise a burn site. My uncle asked me a couple weeks later if I had a fire back there, and of course I told him no. Apparently the fire spread after we left, so then it kind of looked like a wildfire, which is a pretty normal thing around here. And no, I've never talked to a therapist about this. That's why I'm kind of talking to you. But you had to be sure that it was burnt entirely, and for that you have to go back to check, for the very reason you said, in case he found something.

When we left, even though the fire was still going, it didn't look like anything was left. There may have been, and the GBI may have found them, but I didn't go back to check after that Thursday. Also, this area gets routinely burned anyways to keep back the underbrush. It's probably been burned three or four times since then. Okay, huge risk. I went once a year later, not to the exact spot, but to the area. I spent three days out there. By yourself? Yeah, and I joined the army soon after that and was basically gone for the next 10 years. That's probably how things stayed quiet as well. Didn't Ryan do that? No, he was in the army briefly before this. Do you think that contributed to how messed

up he clearly was? I doubt it. He never even finished his training. Why? He just left. I guess it wasn't what he expected, so he went AWOL. The army just said, forget it, and kicked his ass out. Well, if it was after the terror thing, then I'm not surprised. But tell me about what happened in the weeks and months after the Orchard Fire before you went into the army. If I knew Ryan's history or more about him, the signs would be there, lurking quietly or dormant underneath. Still waters run deep. Ryan and I lived together for a couple of more months, and it was tense. We were both extremely anxious. And then I moved to Atlanta and worked up there for a while before I came back and enlisted. It was rough, and I told a couple of my friends about it one night, then of course denied it the next day. So they didn't pursue it, even though you denied it.

It seems now that maybe it wasn't kept quiet. Why didn't any of them tell? I don't know. This was a huge media circus then, just like it is now. I probably didn't want to get involved, and well, hell, they probably didn't believe me. I mean, it is the stuff that urban legend is made of. Yeah, pretty much. And attention was focused so heavily on Marcus and Dykes.

Where were you on the Saturday night? At the place Ryan and I lived and his brother lived there too. A few friends came over, we were drinking, and I went to bed when they left. So they all got checked out recently? Yeah, I'm sure. Why didn't his brother help? Why you? It's more of a brotherly thing to do, I'd have thought.

Still sick, though. He and I were closer than he and his brother, and they didn't really get along. I mean, that's certainly believable, but you told his brother that he told you what he did. He's implicated as well. No arrest for him is strange. Yeah, and he never said another word to me about it. I don't know if he and Ryan talked about it ever. Well, I'd imagine GBI taking so much heat for this would get everyone they can,

but you told GBI about the brother. Or wait, or your lawyer? No, I don't think they will go after anyone who I told. Yes, I told them everything I know, and my lawyer? No, I don't think they will go after anyone who I told. Yes, I told them everything I know and my lawyer too. So no more secrets? I told like half a dozen people about this in the last 11 years. Good. I hope that's all true. I'm stunned no one came forward though. There was a big reward. Most people either don't want to know, they didn't believe me, or like my ex, used it to blackmail me.

How many times have you contemplated suicide? Maybe two, seriously. Wait, how did your ex try to blackmail you? I asked her for a divorce in 2010. She said no, and if I did, she was going to go to the GBI. And how long were you together? Two years at that time, or three years then. We wouldn't separate until 2013.

That's not very long. What happened? We stayed married. I pretended for her, and then I started sleeping with other women. Lots of women. It kind of became my way of dealing with it. Are you faithful to Brooke? Look, there are times in the past I wasn't. She was aware of it, and it's something I'm trying really hard to stop. All of this happening has really helped. This became more of like a compulsive thing. Yeah, I gathered that. But what else? Drinking? Is that what the previous conviction was related to as well? Some compulsive behavior? Some drinking, yeah. And the previous conviction, I don't follow you. The army theft stuff. Oh, no, not really. That was

for the money. I was in Afghanistan and broke. My ex was spending tons of money, so I came up with this. We were already doing it there to come up with a slush fund to pay for other stuff. But you both pled guilty. Were you both incarcerated? She was for six months. I was for 21. No, actually 24. Wow. Two years. Where? Montgomery, Alabama. It was like some white collar place. Probably the best place to go to prison in the U.S. I played a lot of tennis. It's been a standard life so far, I guess. Well, where has your head been at? People say you're an intelligent guy, but you are making some dumb choices. Prison is not a standard choice, Beau. Lots of dumb choices. And after Tara, I kind of felt like any day the roof was going to collapse

and it would be over anyway. Kind of a sense of impending doom all the time in the back of my mind. It makes you take big risks. Yes, impending doom is a lifetime of dread and major anxiety. It sucks you into a vortex of gloom that you can't get out of. But this had to come out. What's Ryan likely to do? Or his PD? What is your lawyer suggested? Is it a death penalty case? Or it's off the table if he confesses, perhaps? I'm not sure. GBI thinks he'll plead out. And if he doesn't, then yeah, I think it will be a DP case. Well, what can he plead to? Here it's like manslaughter, maybe. I'm not sure what you call it there.

It would be murder. Life with possibility of parole. And I think he feels a strong sense of shame about this. The DA there isn't worried about not getting reelected if he doesn't seek the DP. I think a lot of people there just want this over as soon as possible. Parole, huh? I didn't think so, but who knows? They do sentences with long incarceration periods over there, like parole after 60 years. He won't have it easy in prison, I imagine.

I read he was on suicide watch. It's not surprising if it's true. Yeah, he would never get it. Probably normal protocol to put him on suicide watch. It is here. Normal protocol, I mean. You've not had contact with him, I assume, since all this started so recently. Do you ever worry about running into people like Harper and Dykes? Oh, your cousin gave an interview. I forgot to say I saw that. Yeah, no. Look, I don't worry about them. I can handle getting my ass kicked, and I don't think they would try to kill me. And my distant cousin, I haven't spoken to him in 15 years. And the media is opposing a gag order. They went back to search again? Do they just need to move to the trial? Of course. No way it could happen in Osceola. So they're back out

searching. That surprises me. It will be impossible to get a jury there. Yes, it will be. What do you do? Appear again shortly, I imagine, and just plead? I don't know yet. It could be delayed until Ryan is resolved. Well, that's April for grand jury for him unless he pleads, right? I think so, but it could also be delayed. Okay, can I just ask you a bit more to help clear my mind? So Ryan goes there in the early hours of Sunday morning to kill her, or especially her, or both. He breaks in and then she's asleep. Is there a struggle or is she just incapacitated?

Also, can you please explain this whole glove thing? If he goes to trial, it wouldn't be until summer of next year, by the way. And no, no struggle. Immediately incapacitated, I think. I don't know about the glove. Ryan said he didn't wear any. Well, that's weird. What definitive evidence do they have to tie him to the murder?

Yes, they have the orchard. But what is there to tie Ryan him to the murder? Yes, they have the orchard, but what is there to tie Ryan solely to the murder? I mean, even if he confessed, there still has to be something that links him being there. I think they have something. Whatever it is, they haven't told me what it is. What happened to her keys and her purse? Why would they be missing? Ryan took them and threw them in a dumpster in Fitzgerald. I don't know why he took them. Ryan took them and threw them in a dumpster in Fitzgerald. I don't know why he took them. friends. The conversations you have when you share a love of something, about ideas, when you want to

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involves risk of loss. Kraken's registration details at kraken.com slash legal slash ca dash pru dash disclaimer. Okay, why are you talking to me so much? Like I said before, it's helping me to talk to you. I've never talked to a therapist about this and yeah, well, it just helps me. How? All I've done is ask you some really hard questions. Just to get it all out, I'm trying to get my mind in a better place. Okay, I forgot you got charged in a different county. I just double-checked a few things, as I felt the wording on the arrest warrants for Ryan were maybe vague,

as opposed to them being just poorly written. To me, it appeared that information was coming from another source. I know our law is very well here for murder. It was definitely intentionally vague. They're just giving themselves plenty of space. No need to commit to a solid storyline this early, right? I'm just glad it can be over for everyone. Well, what positives can you find in this? For me? Not many. Although not carrying this around anymore will be nice. You probably mean legally. Yeah, whatever happens, happens. Of course, I don't want to spend a decade or more in prison.

Well, you may get a shorter prison sentence, but longer probation, something like that. Probably something along those lines, yeah. And Brooke gets the reward money? The hell if I know. Or both of you get the reward money? I'm not sure how that would work with the public and, you know, pending criminal charges. It definitely won't be me, and I haven't spoken to anyone about it. Brooke is a pharmacist or something like that, right? Yeah. How is her family dealing with this? I'm sure it's been rough. You knew them, obviously, but she knew about the previous army issues, didn't she? Yeah, she knew. Any restrictions on the distances that you can travel right now?

Yeah. Due to my federal probation, I can't leave the middle district of Georgia without permission, that is, which I'm not going to get. Have you been completely truthful with GBI and with your lawyer? Yes, I have. Were you doing drugs? Obviously. I smoked a lot of pot, coke, drank heavily. Is it pissing you off that people say you've gotten away with a lot of stuff because of your powerful family?

Is that true? Yeah, it does piss me off. The people in my family that have power don't give a fuck about me and are busy trying to save their own businesses. I don't really care, but they are actively attacking me now. How? There are rumors of a cover-up. Yeah, I've heard some of the rumors. Not a lot, obviously, but just what was known ages ago.

You were involved and covered up. I don't think there was, but I won't put it past them. That's just awful. The guy Payne Lindsey interviewed, he said he thought you were off or something back in high school. Is there any truth to that? My grades were terrible. I didn't go to a lot of classes. So truanting was an issue. Is there any truth to that? My grades were terrible. I didn't go to a lot of classes. So truanting was an issue. No, it's not.

That guy is Matt. Whatever last name doesn't matter. Social cliques in high school are still a factor there. Matt wasn't an outcast by any means, but wasn't incredibly popular or well-liked. The method thing comes from being friends with some guys a grade younger who much later got in trouble with drugs. I was probably the most popular person in my class. I was elected class president, but I guess you haven't seen that anywhere. I threw great parties and pushed the envelope every weekend. Ryan was my friend, my best friend. His family was broke and I didn't care. He was my friend and they dug into that. I was extremely political and an asshole,

sometimes probably elitist. My senior year was an election year for my grandfather and there was a flag issue here and there. It's really complicated, but it was the death of the Democratic Party in Georgia. And I've never hesitated calling someone out for being stupid. Did you and your brother get along? Yeah. What about Brooke? It's distant with Brooke now too. I don't want to burden her. How long had she known about what happened before she went to GBI or to the sheriff? Just a couple of weeks. How did you tell her?

Were you drunk? She could tell something was bothering me and no, I wasn't drunk. What brought it to a head at that time? I was just really depressed and she pulled it out of me. Was it the podcast? I wasn't listening to that thing. I guess you and Ryan thought it might remain unsolved, huh? But you must have felt uneasy when it began. The podcast, I mean. I also assume it must feel better to have it off your chest, even though the fallout is like a nuclear shockwave, huh? I don't know. No, I didn't think it would be unsolved forever, I guess. I have no idea what Ryan thought. I was always afraid of someone getting arrested that wasn't responsible. Yeah, it was a big risk of someone else getting arrested.

How did you end up where you are? She was my friend. But what about you? Is this ever something you can push aside? Like, do you ever escape it? It's not something you think about at 21, okay? It's easy to be loyal when you don't understand how the world works. I got to a point once where I could go a few days without thinking about it, mostly in the desert.

It's just so hard for me to get my head around what you did. I mean, we all do dumb, immature things at 21. But why you just didn't walk away, I can't process. Loyalty is one thing, but knowing right from wrong, that's something else. Ditto for your friendship versus screwing up your life. I just don't know where your head was at then or where it is now. How tough was it telling the GBI the entire story? It was tough, but I've had practice. I've told a few people, like I said before. Yeah, but it's different when you're telling authorities, hey, you didn't tell me, what are your family doing in terms of attacking you?

It's easier. It's something you kind of want to do is tell the authorities and telling people you care about. That was hard. My mother, my brother. I mean, law enforcement are going to ask every damn question and it's clinical. So it's like getting right to the core of how bad it was. Must have been brutal telling your mom and brother. Yeah, but I guess after 11 years, you get desensitized to the details in your mind. It was bad. And the family conversation, it took a while. Do you get flashbacks at all?

No flashbacks. Dreams, though, all the time. Can I ask, what is the deal with people talking about the clay or mud or something on the tires of Tara's car? I have no idea as far as I know. Her car never left. So what you asked earlier, I probably overvalued my family's liability and my loyalty to Ryan. But then I also think he could have turned it on me if I did go to the cops that day. He definitely could have tried to pin it on you, but I doubt it would have stuck. It sounds like his family life as a kid wasn't great. I don't think it was. I think there

was abuse. I see how I'm perceived, but I think many of my actions have been for other people, maybe not the right people often. And of course, self-preservation is a big concern. Tell me about your family. You mentioned that they were attacking you and it was complicated. Just fire away anywhere you wish to start, I guess. They're just trying to protect their businesses. They want me to break the gag order and publicly say that I had no involvement. But they are horrible about it, about everything. My uncle basically stole most of my mother's inheritance and now controls the trust fund that it's paid out of.

Now, I'm not even convinced they didn't even know about this at some time. They never told me about it, but apparently the orchard was searched on a tip a long time ago, and it was hushed up. This is a multi-million dollar business, and they live the lifestyle that coincides with that. When you say your uncle, you're talking about your Uncle Randy, is that right? Yeah. I thought it was interesting that Ricketson was so definite about your uncle, actually.

So from what I know, it was Ryan's lawyer who invoked the gag order. Yeah. Well, your ties with him are fractured anyway. I find it hard to believe that something wasn't known if you had told people. Even if it wasn't believed or passed off as drunk talk or whatever, even with a hint of a story like that, I mean, it should have been checked out. I'd be surprised if it wasn't. I would be too.

I now believe they did know. And yeah, I'm not fighting the gag order. I'm not fighting for it either. Many media outlets are challenging it as well as the Grinstead family. And you know what? Fuck my family's business. Is there any truth to more arrests possibly coming

in connection with that cover-up or withholding information? Jesus, it's like a bomb is about to go off. What does your lawyer say about the fact that they think they had some idea? I have no idea. I'm just speculating at this point. I can imagine they aren't happy and the GBI wouldn't be able to talk to them about remains if they found something. You know, I try to do my research when I can. I don't accept much at face value. I listen, go away, research, ask more questions, and then try to decide what the truth is. But the law is different here, even though there are some similarities. We have constitutional law here as well. And I'd imagine the remains are at an FBI lab for forensic testing, whatever they found left, that is. So are you going to talk to your lawyer about your thoughts, even if you wonder if it's speculation?

What does your mom say? What does she think? If my family knew it and it comes out, it'll be absolutely insane. Well, actually, if law enforcement did receive a tip back then and investigated that, it would start the statute of limitations clock ticking for me, which would have expired now, resulting in the charges thrown out. Yeah, I read that. What does your lawyer think? We've spoken about it and my mother thinks they knew. Well, that stuff really needs to be followed up on. I find it hard to believe that none of you were in any way not on their radar due to the rumors at least. My lawyer brought this information to me about the previous search,

and so that's how I knew. By the way, stock tip, if true, buy pecan commodities. It's the largest pecan exporter in the world. I knew that ages ago when it was first mentioned about the pecan farm. I knew they would have a lot to lose if anything occurred on their land and they possibly knew and that had to be hushed up. And that's interesting about the lawyer knowing. How did he know, Beau? Yeah, it's huge. And I told people that. I can't believe they didn't tell people. I don't know how he knew or dates.

If I had to guess, it would be early though, like 06 timeframe. The more I think about it, I think they thought I would get killed in Iraq. Well, I want to ask one more question. You had nothing, nothing to do with her death in any way. And you weren't in the house and you weren't in her car. Is that right?

Because if it's true, it has to come out. If they let people suffer through their arrogance and some overinflated sense of entitlement and actions to cover it up, that's not okay. That's really serious. Hear me out. No, nothing. I've never been there, her house or her car. Hell, I think the last time we spoke was when I was in high school. And oh yeah, fuck the company. I'd be happy to see it get torched. I won't lie or embellish anything to make that happen though. I bet I just sound

like a sociopath. I don't know. Are you a sociopath? No. By the way, we don't use sociopath anymore. Oh, okay. What's the current diagnosis then? Well, I can't give you one specifically. It wouldn't be reliable or valid. Not much intimidates you, I'd say. That's perceived as being sociopathic, perhaps. You're also pretty reckless. Well, thanks, I guess. I'm sorry if I've offended you. I speak my mind. I'm brutally honest, but I'm not cruel. No, no, no. I'm sorry. I didn't mean that. I see you as objective and interesting and, well, very dangerous. But I also trust you. That's not very wise. Look, all of this is dangerous. I would have described myself as a

stoic person back in the day, and I'm not a big sharer. Here's my past and my future. For some reason, people just open up to me. It's weird. I know stuff I shouldn't know and I live far away. I don't want to know this, to be honest. Look, I've appreciated your help. I value it very much. I have no real clue why I'm talking to you.

You're right, I think, so push me. Don't let me shrug off a question, please. I'm smart enough to know and I shouldn't overstep boundaries that are clearly there for a very good reason. Fuck the boundaries. What do you want to ask me? You think I have PTSD? I mean, I did kill two guys in Afghanistan.

I don't know. To go along with Ryan indicates poor judgment and impairment regardless of age. Afghanistan has nothing to do with it for you. Did you smell her body burning? Yeah. Her hair. Everything. It can be so visceral. Does that smell haunt you? Yeah, I've smelled it since then.

Olfactory flashbacks, it's what they're called. You saw her hair getting singed and then disappearing. Did you see flesh burn and disintegrate? That's something that will penetrate deeply into your brain. Yeah, it's fucked me up and silicone implants were burning. Jesus Christ. So you both watched? I really wish I hadn't pushed it. I just still didn't believe it could be true. Yeah, we watched. Why? Why did you watch?

You told GBI this? I said the Lord's Prayer and then lit the fire. I saw everything. Why did you watch? Sometimes people have a morbid fascination and that's not uncommon, but... She deserved at least someone to watch. It was reverent. I knew she was a Christian, even though... Look, I tried to do something. Yeah, I watched. Did Ryan watch too? Did he even say anything or show any emotion?

I can't remember. No. I have one more question, and then I need to stop. How many times did you watch over the period it took until everything was basically destroyed? Like, for roughly how many hours do you think that you watched her burning? Twelve hours, maybe. Shit!

You told Brooke this? And the GBI? I just remembered the part about saying a prayer yesterday. So no, and I'm not gonna go to the GBI with that. Family loyalty and loyalty to a friend isn't the causative factor for what you did. Despite that, even fear of being framed aside, people don't do what you did. They don't allow it to happen. Fuck, I'm not looking for an excuse.

So you're saying someone normal would have turned him in immediately? I'm being serious about this. Hell yes, absolutely. They would have been terrified and gone to authorities for help. Ryan would have scared them. You don't even appear to have been scared of Ryan despite what you say he did. What the fuck? How the fuck did I allow this?

Why did he do this? Why weren't you scared of him? Why do you think you weren't afraid? I never felt threatened by him. I was surprised he do this? Why weren't you scared of him? Why do you think you weren't afraid? I never felt threatened by him. I was surprised he did this. But at any point, he could have turned on you well after you both destroyed her body, not just in the moment. That would have terrified most people just knowing that, just the thought of that. How did you know he wouldn't do that to you? Because he did it. We were friends, but I could have beat his ass physically any day. But the fact that he did it, that right there, that's the impaired

judgment I'm speaking of. That isn't logical. I can't remember her face. Bo, what have you done over the years to try and atone for this? I think it was wise that you told GBI that you'd be open to meeting with them if they're ever up for it. It'll be hard, but you're going to feel better after you do that. I haven't done anything really to atone for it besides my own self-destruction. I don't know what I'm going to say to her family. They probably think I'm a monster. I don't know what I'm going to say to her family. They probably think I'm a monster, and this is really strange, but her and I speak in my dreams. What you did was monstrous.

One day soon, there's going to be a memorial for that girl. You better not be anywhere, anywhere near it. Okay, okay. I'm going to go to bed soon, and I appreciate you listening. Look, I dread speaking to her family, and I can meet face to face. They don't deserve my shame. Fuck. I'm okay. I'm okay. I just, I got to stop freaking out.

Thanks for listening, guys. Today's episode was mixed and mastered by Resonate Recordings. If you want to improve the quality of your podcast or start a podcast of your own, go to ResonateRecordings.com and get your first episode produced for free. This episode was recorded at Industrious Atlanta, Ponce City Market. For $250 off your first month's office rent, visit industriousoffice.com slash vanished. Remember, there's only two episodes of Up and Vanished Season 1 left. Stay tuned for episode 23 coming next Monday, July 17th. Thanks guys, and I'll see you soon.