Up and Vanished - Inside the Investigation with Payne Lindsey, Dennis Cooper, and Kyle Tekiela

Episode Date: November 24, 2025

Have you ever wondered what happens off mic in an investigative podcast? Join Payne Lindsey (Up and Vanished), Dennis Cooper (Culpable), and Kyle Tekiela (Crook County) for a candid look inside making a hit series. Hear personal reflections about honest storytelling, lifelong bonds to the cases you cover, and maintaining curiosity despite external pressures. Hear raw, insider takes on the un-aired side of podcasting. Recorded live from the Tenderfoot TV stage at CrimeCon 2025. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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some serious prizes. Play Chumba Casino today. No purchase necessary VGW Group. Voidware prohibited by law 21 plus TNCs apply. Hey, it's Payne Lindsay here. A few months ago, live from the Tenderfoot stage at CrimeCon, I got a chance to sit down and talk to Kyle Tequila, host of Crook County, and Dennis Cooper, the host of Culpable.

We discussed both of their true crime podcasts, but also dove a lot deeper into how these shows are actually made. I hope you enjoy my conversation with these two amazing podcasters. These guys are true grind podcasters like me. They have their own investigations and stories that they've told. I'm huge fans of theirs and I've known them for a long time. I think we all have kind of our own unique experience in this space and also like a lot of similarities. And I just kind of want to just rip it open with, I'll start with you, Kyle, for those who don't know, what is just the logline of your story, your podcast, and you came to us

years ago and I was like, okay, holy shit, we're making a podcast about this. But for those who don't know, tell them what the premise is. Yeah, Crook County is the story of my dad who lived a secret double life as a Chicago mafia hitman. And the whole family, including myself and my mother, didn't know about it. He kept it secret from all of us for 30, something years. And I found out when I was like 29. I was already married. I was already planning on having a kid and now I have this bombshell dropped in my lap. So what am I supposed to do with this information? And so it took me years to kind of digest all of that. And then I started recording just for posterity, just for family archives. And then as time

went on and the more footage I got of him, it just started to come together. Like it just needed to be something bigger than just a family thing. It needed to be a show. I've watched The Sopranos and stuff like that. I mean, I like Goodfellas. I like mafia-style movies. I don't know what it's like for it to be your true story. I mean, because a part of me is like, that's badass,

but that's definitely not what you thought, correct? Well, what's weird is I still don't know what it's like. Okay. Because I grew up with, like, he was just a firefighter paramedic in my eyes. Like, we had no idea. So we lived like normal, boring, suburban lives, right? It wasn't like we knew that he was this big mafia hitman growing up and he had a reputation around town and everyone knew we were like mafia, you know, kids. Like that's

not what it was at all. We just thought we were a regular family. So it's weird knowing now that that whole part of my life was kind of like a lie and that there was always danger around every corner. Like if he did something, he fucked up, like that could have come back on us, but we had no idea. So that's crazy to think about. Yeah. What was your first reaction and what Where have you settled now? My first reaction was you're full of shit. Like, are you insane? Have you lost your mind? Now, mind you, he was also like, I put him through rehab and I got him clean.

So he was a heroin at it. So I'm like, is this some like heroin, like fever dream? Like, what are you talking about? What happened in that rehab I put you in? Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, it wasn't an ayahuasca trip, was it? Right. So, but over time, as he started telling me more and more of the story,

and it became this huge. like, you know, full of details and full of life. And, you know, I'm starting to verify things with people that he grew up with and other family members who didn't know but kind of knew that he had like a dark side. And it all started to make sense like, oh, this actually is real. I don't know how much is real, but it's real. Like, there's enough there that it's real. So I just started diving in and doing the work. And eventually this, we got Crook County out of the deal. So to sum it up, Like, at this point in time, how do you feel about it, actually? Are you mad or you...

You know, if he wasn't such a fuck-up, pardon my French. Mm-hmm. And it didn't, like, the mafia thing didn't destroy the family. His heroin addiction destroyed the family. Okay. So I'm pissed that he's a degenerate heroin addict. And that the dynamic of our family is, like, gone because... Is that associated with the double life he was living?

Well, I mean, he was always like... I mean, he's around narcotics and cocaine. and booze all the time. And he's, you know, it's just, I can't imagine the stress and guilt you could feel of being someone who's killed people, multiple people. Like that had to weigh on him. And so you self-medicate, right? But it got really bad because as a firefighter, he was in a really bad accident.

And then they gave him all these painkillers to deal with the surgeries. And that's when everything escalated as far as his addiction is concerned. And that's like when he lost control. And then it just became an absolute. Exactly. Then you had to hit the streets after they cut him off. So it's like I'm more mad that that happened And it's but now it's like

I guess I'm grateful that we didn't get the mafia Blowback as a kid like I'm grateful that whatever he did Didn't come back on us so it's a weird Full of very contracting you know emotions You know I've covered dozens of stories But they've never been about you know my family Right Yeah sure

And so, like, that's got to be a completely different beast. And so I think that one, kudos to you for, for, I mean, I'm sure maybe it's even therapeutic in some weird way to sort of, like, put it down. And, like, I don't know. Is it a processing part of that? I mean, it took me years to make it for a reason. Yeah. Because I needed that time to process it. And because the whole time I'm also investigating, I'm learning new information.

I'm getting new stories out of him. I'm, you know, interviewing people. I'm getting, you know, getting more raw emotions. from people and and so it took a long time to you know i'm like editing and putting a story together and also processing things at the same time then i take a break then i edit a little bit and then i process and i take a break yeah and so um but yeah it's extreme now that it's all done it's extremely cathartic like i feel like that monkey's off my back now and it's no longer my burden like it was like now it's like a gift like my gift to other people to maybe listen and and maybe learn from

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Ben-MGium operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. I hope you're enjoying this episode live from CrimeCon. Want to get a head start on CrimeCon 2026 in Vegas? Right now, you can save 10% on your tickets with our exclusive promo code. Just head to CrimeCon.com to grab your share. standard badge today, and use promo code tenderfoot at checkout. Don't wait, lock in your spot now for the ultimate true crime experience, and we'll see you in Las Vegas next May. Now back to the show. Let's start with just culpable season one, like you getting into true crime podcasting,

just that journey. Yeah, so not a personal story so much. You know, working with strangers on the contrary, but as you know, I mean, you were a big inspiration for me. I just pretty much heard what you did and thought, I could probably steal that formula. You're like, yeah, that guy, I can do better than that guy. Yeah, you know, so. And he did. And he's so much better. He did. That's what I've been saying. I've been trying to tell you guys. But yeah, no, I just, funny enough, I never intended on doing this. It was just something that, you know, I thought was really cool and I was inspired what

you didn't, thought maybe I could. And, you know, to short and a long story, I learned about Christian Andriacchio's case at CrimeCon of all places, which is why I always love coming to this. I always love seeing so many people out here and seeing these people, you know, pass out their loved ones flyers, just trying to get attention on it because, you know, ultimately at the end of the day, you want to solve these cases that you follow. But a big part of it, too, is just getting them the attention that they need and deserve. And so it was 2018 CrimeCon Nashville and got a flyer from one of his family members about his case and contacted Ray Andreakio and the rest of his history telling the story of an unsolved case and you're basically trying to pick up where investigators left off

and move the needle tell me from your perspective what that's actually like well it's tough I mean there's there's so many layers to it you know just to go back to the start of your question about picking up the pieces where they've been left off you know oftentimes that's the problem with these cases that's why they remain unsolved is because that attention dies off the police department of sheriff's office moves on to new cases and this one is just getting colder and colder by the day and so you know also these are more often than not open cases so it's not something that you can just walk in there and see the whole book on it and all the investigative work that went into it. You're really, like you alluded to, more than anything, starting from scratch.

Now, fortunately, in season one of Culpable, Christian's mother, Ray, was just a warrior, a bulldog of sorts of like I referred to her, and she, you know, for years was like, I'm not going to give up on this. I'm going to get to the bottom of this. And so, you know, I had a leg up in a sense of that I knew some information going into it. But for different reasons, the authorities there did not have any interest, opening up the doors anymore on that or working with us in any capacity. And that's still something I think all of us struggle with to this day. I know you just had some of that in your most recent season. It's just I think a lot of them are still warming up to the idea of people like us, like coming in and trying to help them.

essentially at the end of the day but then on the on the personal side it's it's a different kind of struggle because I do want to have a personal connection I do want to connect with the family and meet them on an emotional level I've always been a natural you know just empathizer and so I have no problem making those connections where I struggle is you know it's sensitive material and they can't write these stories. These are our stories about their loved one. And so that balance is always a struggle.

It's always a struggle of knowing what to say and how to best say it in a way that's, you know, caring and concerning of their emotions, but also getting the truth out there. What's actually the hardest part about it, genuinely, or maybe even not even when you're doing it, But like afterwards and sort of like, you know, I was told by Mark Smirling who did the Jains six, seven years ago. And at the time, I didn't even fully get what he meant.

He said, these stories never leave you. And I was like, right. I was like, what do you mean? He's like, they never leave you. He starts talking about cases he did 25 years ago. I was like, I still talk to those people. And I'm like, you're right. And like, I'd only been eight months into investigating terror grins.

says disappearance and i was like i guess it's going to be like part of my life forever i what does that even mean right and but it's true yeah it's very true i can't really put it a better way than you just did i mean i think well you well you should i'm going to do my right now i mean it's like yeah i didn't know this going into it either when i when i decided to do season one a culpable i just thought it was like talk to who needs to be talked to figure out what you can figure out write a story record it fortunately you're like that guy didn't do yeah i could do that shit yeah i underestimated it you fucked around and found out i fucked around and found out yeah you're like damn and then i'm like he has trauma too i bet yeah like uh it is a long journey an emotional

journey um i mean i'm pretty sure i've shaved years off my own life but again it's not a pity party right i'm fortunate to be able to do this and i love doing this and i love doing this but man it's a lot and you and I didn't realize when I signed a contract to do that show that in a way I was signing a contract with the family of like we're in this together forever essentially right and that's that's really what it was I mean I just I just I just contacted Ray Andreaquio just about a month or so ago and and we kind of did a follow up and put an episode out about it and we're talking like what's new and you know do we need to do some other follow-up and this and that and it's just you know we're talking about our families and

stuff it's not just about the victim i mean we're meeting on a more personal level you look around and see other true crime podcasts and they're mostly not about their own personal story about their dad being living some double life so what was your approach and the closeness that you have with that and how you would delicately mean because there's a level of vulnerability there i can only imagined was kind of just weird and like maybe uncomfortable 100% you know like at first it's a story about my dad and then as I'm recording and I'm asking myself questions and I'm contemplating and I'm mulling all this stuff over I'm going well no it's much more than that it's a story about like what happened to my mom too and it's also a story about what happened to my brother which means it's

a story about what happened to me so it's like I'm like going through all these mental like exercises and I'm trying to figure this out and at a certain point I said I have to put myself into the story. You kind of just have to be completely shameless. Yeah. And like get rid of the ego. Yeah. And like if you, like, you know, there are times when I felt like I was really weak

and I made weak decisions because I was young and immature. You know, you almost have to like take a step back and like I become a character in my own story. And but I'm not that character. I am that character, but I have to treat it like I'm the director of another family. Right. So it's a weird exercise. but like and it was hard at first or awkward at first but over time it becomes second nature and then by the end of it it's just like I don't care at all like I completely wear my heart

of my sleep like I will say exactly what I'm thinking I don't care if you don't like me but like you know in contrast to what you guys do it's not I'm not treating it like a procedural crime right that I have to solve I'm treating it like I am telling a very deep intense story with a million different layers and I have to do it and I have to do it authentically and I have to do it in a way that it's going to make the family proud. That family just happens to be my family. When you're flying Emirates business class, dining on a world-class menu at 40,000 feet, you'll see that your vacation isn't really over until you're flying.

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So for you, Dennis, like, how do you creatively keep going when it already is a lot of pressure from a cold case standpoint? And there's people saying, you suck, you got it wrong, and the family is like, I don't know if you're right and the law enforcement it's like don't come over here yeah right well I think ultimately it's just enjoying uh what you do and being passionate about it I mean like you said none of us really have the qualifications you could say to be in here whatever those qualifications you know I don't Kyle I definitely don't no for sure if hair were to be a qualification you do oh yeah I have I have a Ph.D you do that it looks so real it's a great route it looks

It's a great rug. I got a great rug guy. But yeah, just, you know, being passionate about it. That's why I love making connections with families. I think that kind of helps keep you going, making a very deep connection with the victim. And knowing, like, I'm in this for the long haul, no matter how hard it gets.

But, you know, I'm kind of like, I think if you peeled back all of our layers, I'm sure there's something there that points to why we're here. I mean, as a college dropout, I probably shouldn't be here. But at the same time, like, I was as a, a kid, I did watch Survivor. I was not filming anybody, but I did like to write short stories for fun, you know, and so I always had kind of a creative itch, I guess you could say, as a

writer, for whatever reason, I did not pursue that as a career in any sort of way, and, you know, but it worked out nonetheless, I guess you could say. So yeah, but I think ultimately it's like you said, making something that you would want to listen to, because as you know, having made it yourself, and I listened to it as a fan, what, seven years ago, whatever it was. Like, you clearly didn't sound like you knew what the hell you were doing, you know? Clearly. Clearly. How clearly was that to you?

It sounded like you were walking around with a Zoom. They were like, I'm going to follow it. I'm going to, like, do exactly what that guy did. It sounded like you were walking around with a Zoom recorder, walking up to people saying, hey, do you know anything about this? That was like 25% of it. But at the same time, it made it seem attainable and also. made it, made me realize like, damn, you can, you can convey a lot and you can tell a really compelling story by just having your heart in it and, uh, and through audio only. And that

amazed me as somebody who was always fascinated with watching true crime and growing up watching shows like Dateline 2020 and watching every documentary that was out there to learn that there was this medium where it had no visual representation, but yet you could feel like you were in a movie was like, well, damn, I want to do that. That sounds really cool. And easier, honestly. Like, I don't know how to work a camera. That would be a whole other thing to try to learn. So, you know, I just try to master that and, you know,

keep my heart in it until the end with the stories I tell. In the future going forward, in any other projects you do, how are you approaching it differently? Or what have you learned? And what do you want to bring forward for your own work in this space? Doing different seasons of culpable means, you know, you can pick a different case each time. And with that opens a door.

to all different possibilities. You know, this newest season of Coppah Bowl is very different in that right when I started to produce it, some events happened, and I obtained, like, the case filed of this case, and beyond that, there was, like, all these different recordings and stuff from way back in 1998, which has been really cool to utilize and work with and was something very different than I did in past seasons. So, I mean, I think in some ways, like, each story just being different, each victim being different, family being different, each expert

you talk to it, like, it opens possibilities like different creative avenues because I'm like you as a creative, like you definitely don't ever want to get stuck in a lane or feel like you're just doing the same thing over and over and over, it drives me nuts. You also look like you're doing like your best still, right? Yeah, and like, yeah, just coming up with

not getting lazy. Yeah, like you complaisant with like, yeah, more of these. For sure. It's like that's not what this is, right? And that's why also deep down, I mean, I also would like to break out at some point and try something different. You know, I messaged you when high strains came out. And I was like, man.

You were like, take me on a UFO ride. Please. All right. It didn't sound quite as emotionally exhausted. You know what I mean? It's just like it's different. That is very true. And it just just, you know, so I think at some point too, I'd like to try to to branch out and do some different types of projects like that.

And you should. I think that like your story telling like skill set is could live in so many different lanes. And I think that's what it takes Sometimes to even like get this sort of energy back Where like I've gone through like Whoa man I have to like heal after Like being in the trenches with something I was gonna say that you have to like take a vacation after you finish this season

It's not it's like it kind of just builds up Like I don't even realize it's gotten so bad Who am I? I usually know the bags under the eyes is always the dead giveaway When you start seeing those when you look in the mirror Oh, totally. It's like, that's not good. You're like, but I did sleep.

Yeah. I know. It's a, it's just a, you learn that through time. And you got to like take care of yourself to be able to do something, especially about anyone else. Yeah, yeah. Keeping that. 100%.

You've got to be on your game. Otherwise, you're going to do a disservice to whatever the story is. Right. Or you shouldn't be doing this. There's like a pressure there. Yeah. For sure. I mean, that's another thing too.

but like some of the stuff that I don't know if you've done this in years but like you were doing stuff that was like live like you were editing and then like you the next episode's not done yet when it's releasing next week like that's got to be insane it's important to sort of like check yourself balance yourself to make sure you're you're doing it the right way you know what I mean yeah I mean there's a rule I learned in Hollywood a long time ago is nobody knows what they're doing and nobody knows what they're talking about no matter how successful and I think to some degree that's extremely true right you know and so you just you can't beat yourself up if you're trying to do your own thing you just got to go

and do it and believe in yourself and just persistence is key and just keep cranking away and like it'll just start to make sense and it'll just start to get good if it's not good yet it will if you just keep working at it and i think that's what makes us a little crazy you kind of have to be a little crazy to do it yeah a little bit because like not everyone's going to be like yes correct right like there's a period time where i was like i don't i don't get what he's doing to be honest and you're like you got to push through that part and you're like damn Maybe they're right. I shouldn't be doing any of this shit.

Right? And that applies with anything. But also, no, fuck those people because you believe in yourself. So just do what you want to do. That's true. So don't be influenced by that. Wow, this guy just doesn't care about anybody. Just fuck us.

Yeah. Really? He's so selfish. I just realize I'm swearing a lot in this panel. I apologize. It's fucking fine. I'm from Chicago. Don't even fucking worry about it.

This is fucking GrimeCon. Thank you guys for for sitting here. listening to us talk, talk shit for a little while. This has been really enjoyable. Hopefully you guys were at least mildly entertained or you learned something or at least you're like, okay, I'm never fucking with those guys again. You know, I don't know.

Thanks for joining us. Yeah. Cheers, Joe. Thanks for listening. This conversation was live from CrimeCon with Kyle Tequila and Dennis Cooper. If you haven't already, be sure to check out Cook County.

and the new season of Culpable. And stay tuned for some exciting new shows coming very soon from Tenderfoot.