Up and Vanished - Oregon Jon’s Polygraph Test

Episode Date: May 24, 2025

Polygraph tests aren’t proof — but they can reveal pressure points. In this episode, Oregon Jon agrees to take one. We walk through every question, every reaction, and what the results might mean. It’s not science. It’s not evidence. But it is... something. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to a Tenderfoot TV podcast. What's better than a well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue? A well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue that was carefully selected by an Instacart shopper and delivered to your door. A well-marbled ribeye you ordered without even leaving the kiddie pool. Whatever groceries your summer calls for, Instacart has you covered. Download the Instacart app and enjoy $0 delivery fees

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Do you know if she's here now or was she released? They said she was released. I'm Payne Lindsay. And I'm Maggie Freeling. This is Up and Vanished Weekly. Join me as I talk through cases with special guests and true crime experts. There's got to be something at the heart of that evidence that they've got. It's got to be DNA.

Yeah. Tune in as Payne Lindsay lays out the crime in true Up and Vanished style. A late night knock at the door, a missing car, and a mysterious shadowy figure caught on camera. We cannot see that person's face ever. Luckiest person in the world. What new evidence will it take to solve one of Florida's most high profile missing persons cases? Up and Vanished Weekly is available now.

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rape, and murder. The names of survivors have been changed for anonymity purposes. Testimony shared by guests of the show is their own and does not reflect the views of Tenderfoot TV or Odyssey. Thank you so much for listening. Let me start by saying this. I know what you're thinking.

A polygraph test? Yeah, I know what you're thinking. A polygraph test? Yeah, I know. They're not admissible in court. They've been debated for decades. And depending on who you ask, they're either a breakthrough tool or complete junk science. The truth is somewhere in the middle. A polygraph isn't an answer. It's just a tool.

A way to measure how your body reacts when you're asked a question. That's it. I'm not here to convince you of its accuracy. In fact, anyone out there rolling their eyes right now, I see you. Because honestly, I'm just as dubious as you are. I've never been someone who thinks the polygraph test is some sort of holy grail. I take them all with a grain of salt. And that's why the context and the circumstances surrounding what you're about to hear are very important to remember.

And please hear me clearly. John asked for this himself. He wanted to take this test himself. He wanted us to film it. He wanted you guys to see and to hear it. John wasn't paid to do this. He wants to simply clear his name. And as for me and the family of Florence, like Pialik, we just want the truth. I'm sure like many of you, I thought there was no way he'd actually go through with this. I'm sure, like many of you, I thought there was no way he'd actually go through with this.

Surely, he was bluffing. But he wasn't. Not one bit. And that in itself already stands for something in my book. And if we're going to do this polygraph test, we have to do it right. By the book. No shortcuts. No pressure.

Just clean data. Whatever that even means. So let's talk facts. According to some studies, it's claimed that under ideal conditions, polygraph tests can be up to 85 to 90 percent accurate. But the National Academy of Sciences also warns there can be serious flaws in false positives. But let's also talk history, false confessions, malicious police tactics,

misused results. We've all heard this. There's a dark side of this tool, too. So, no, this is not a verdict. This isn't science fiction. This is just more information, data. Take it or leave it. Because when you're trying to figure out if someone's telling the truth, sometimes the best thing is to just look them in the

eye and ask them. From Tinderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun. I'm your host, Payne Lindsay. What I worry about is scientifically, what she's gonna say is that there needs to be a control situation where if he sees camera equipment, it's going to stress him out more and give more of an opportunity for people to say, you got a false positive.

So the less that there's intro obstruction between him and the polygrapher, the more true the data is going to be. What if you don't even see him at first and he just meets the polygrapher and you only see him after the real test? So if you set it up that way, you get the best possible results because he's not going to see you until after the real test. My producer Dylan and I had been going back and forth on this for about a week straight. A polygraph test isn't just a yes or no decision. It's a domino. One that, once pushed, could fall in any direction. In the scary part, we won't know which way until it's already too late. What if John fails miserably? Like really fails? Would he start to unravel in front of us?

That's not being dramatic. That's just being real. What I've learned throughout the years is that when you corner someone who's hiding something, there's truly no telling what they might do next. Especially if they feel they're at the end of their road and maybe have nothing else to lose. At the same time, if he passes, public perception could shift instantly. We might even start second-guessing things ourselves. Now, it wouldn't take away from all the other crimes he's committed, especially those towards women, which we do have the court documents for, but that's how

powerful this moment could be, regardless of anyone's personal opinion of the science behind it. Let's come up with what we think are the hard-hitting questions and what could be a resolution to something. We care about the data. We're gonna be by the book about that. I don't wanna have any sway. I wanna set the scenario that is an authentic result. We flew in a 20-year polygraph expert Nice to meet you. Oh, nice to meet you too.

Thank you for coming. Of course, my pleasure. We flew in a 20-year polygraph expert from Los Angeles to Portland. Her name is Jessica, and she definitely knows her shit. Is this okay? Can I go right in? Absolutely. All right.

All right. We had a hotel room set aside for the test. And she began unpacking all her gear. Every cord, every sensor, every pulse. And I'm just watching. Slowly feeling the gravity sink in. And these will go across this upper and lower chest. So big. And this is the same polygraph

that federal and law enforcement agencies use. Meanwhile, I keep refreshing my phone, waiting for Oregon John's text. He just landed in Portland too. And the blood pressure cuff. I've done dozens and dozens of interviews. I've talked to murder suspects, even serial killers. I've walked into some pretty dark places. But this, today, was making me feel a new kind of nervous. Because this wasn't just a conversation.

This was a psychological reaction. In between each question, we have to allow 20 seconds at least for his body to calm down from each question. They're also going to be peppered in with some controlled questions. So you've got relevant questions, then I need to pepper in some controlled questions or known truths. Remember, this is a lie detector. It's not a truth detector.

So your body doesn't react to something like, if I ask you if your favorite color is red, but it's really blue and you say yes, there's no consequence for that, right? It only reacts to relevant questions where you might lie. Like, did you rob the bank last night and you say no but you really did it would react to your microscopic changes in your body chemistry. The knees will go across this upper and lower chest, stomach.

And this is the same polygraph that federal and law enforcement agencies use for both their law enforcement officers and suspects. I'm going to turn this on. I'm not going to leave it running because it will freeze if you leave it running. In terms of the questions, they have to be yes or no, right? Something you can answer with a yes or a no, with your mouth only. So you want to have this person sit like a statue for not more than four or five minutes. We're going to pepper in the relevant questions with some controlled questions or known truths so that we keep a good baseline of what his body does when he's telling the truth so that we keep a good baseline of what his body does when he's telling the truth so that when he's asked a relevant question we can see his internal reaction.

The last time I saw John I was undercover. I catfished him and I was about to meet him face to face for the first time as the real me. No masks, no fake names. Everything seemed to be going smoothly. Almost too smoothly. I checked my phone again. John is now in his Uber. Eight minutes away. Some people can control to a certain extent. Maybe they're breathing or something. But you can't control everything.

One way or another, your breathing will react or your blood pressure or the internal sweat that's going to your fingertips. But you have to give the body time to calm down between each question. That's why you're asked controlled questions in between or known truths in between. You don't want to just keep them elevated.

That defeats the purpose. That you will not get an accurate reading like that. So four relevant or questions of importance each chart covered in with the controlled questions or the known truths. ETA two minutes. I'm about to meet John in the hotel lobby. It's time to put my game face on and finish what I started. And right before I headed down, Jessica had one last question for me. You want to administer the questions or me?

By the book. I would like you to. Okay. To support sustainable food production, BHP is building one of the world's largest hot ash mines in Canada. Essential resources responsibly produced. It's happening now at BHP, a future resources company. I I meet John in the lobby. He walked in cool, calm, cheery almost. Maybe even a little bit cocky.

The confidence isn't truth. It's also sometimes a mask people wear when they want to control the room. Probably a lot similar to the one I'm wearing right now. So this was it. The wires. The questions. The silence. It's strange. This was it. The wires. The questions. The silence.

It's strange. Watching a man walk into a room to be judged by machines. And you start to ask yourself, do I even want the truth? Am I afraid of what it actually might confirm? Then you have the flip side. afraid of what it actually might confirm, then you have the flip side. Two years into an investigation the police gave up on a missing Alaska native woman, Florence Okpialik, and the person who last saw her alive as we know it is about to sit down in the hot seat. There's no turning back now. And so the test begins. Are you ready to start the test? Yes.

Okay. Is today Friday? No. Okay. Have you ever eaten a Taco Bell? Yes. Okay. Have you ever had sexual contact with Florence Oc?

Good luck. No. Have you ever had sexual contact with Florence Aquilac? No. Have you ever ridden on a train? Yes. Do you know what happened to Florence? No. No. In the last year, have you ever lied to a police officer to get out of serious trouble?

Yes. Okay. Do you know how to make pancakes? Yes. Okay. Do you know how to make pancakes? Yes. Okay. Did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance?

Yes. Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked? Yes. You heard it. There it is. But here's the twist. If you watched this first on Instagram Live last week, you didn't see the whole thing. This was by design. For the best interest of all parties here, what you saw and what you just listened to

was actually the second polygraph test. That's because during the first test, we took extreme measures to ensure that John was in the least stressful environment possible. No me, no cameras in his face, no lights, no added pressure, just John, Jessica, and the polygraph machine. So let's rewind a bit. Back to the first test. This test happened immediately after me bringing John upstairs

She'll explain everything. I'm gonna let you guys do your thing Okay, I'm actually done for stress analysis to okay. Okay. Thank you again for doing this and Take your time. Sure. We'll be out here. I just want to be... I want to be natural. I don't want to be like staring over your shoulder or something. You know what I'm saying? Y'all can both text me if you need me. We'll just be down the hall.

I'll leave y'all to it, okay? Yeah. You know, I used to work for the government and stuff. I had to take a couple of these. You know, just to get work for the government and stuff. I had to take a couple of leaves and, you know, just to get hired. If you're a government employee, you do. I was a contractor. I worked for the Census Department. Oh, okay.

I was a... Then you're familiar with... I was actually... Went to Quantico and got a profile of a job. Oh, wow. I worked at Guantanamo for three years. My religious beliefs, I help a lot of people that are in bad situations.

And that's how this situation arose. And I asked for this. Because I've been being harassed. You know, and people just believe the worst. I live in a small town in 2000. We have tourists. It's Ketchikan, Alaska. This originally happened in Nome, Alaska,

which only has 1,200 people. Therefore, the rumor of Nome in very small towns. I, yes. You know, I've been assaulted, I've been run off the road. Oh my God. I have to carry a little firearm everywhere I go up there. The police know about it.

They've had to respond multiple times. They already did their own investigation. You know, and it's- And what happened with that one? Did they were you cleared or? Well, they can't find anything on me. There's no current case. You know, so no PD, they called them. They don't even really remember who I am. Even. All right. Well, are you ready for a polygraph test? Oh, yeah. So no drugs, no alcohol. I did have a half a drink on the plane yesterday here.

That's okay. And that was about two. That's okay, my question would be, are you hydrated with water? I just drink about two or 20 of these a day. Holy cow. I'm also a merchant seaman. I, which that's a lot of background checks.

I volunteered for this and he seemed kind of shocked. Because they kind of. But that's good. You know because they. I don't know. No, no, no. It was good. I don't know anything about that. He has a problem with me.

He's given me the opportunity to completely clear my head. And that's why I'm here. Well, we'll do the test. We'll do a test without him in here and then when we're done. So I've been doing this since the 1990s. Oh wow. I'm going to ask you a series of questions and in between each question we're done. So I've been doing this since the 1990s. I'm going to ask you a series of questions and in between each question we're going to give you like 20 seconds. There's

four relevant questions I'm going to ask you regarding this case and then it'll be peppered in with some controlled questions or what we know as known truths like is the sky blue along with a couple of questions that are meant to embarrass you like you have you ever sold change out of your parents wallet when you were a little boy or you know something like that I just it's just to get a baseline correct. So you're very familiar with this. So I'm gonna hook you up To the equipment and it's gonna be an upper lower thoracic, which is your breathing measures your breathing Along with a blood pressure cuff and GSR, which is a galvanized skin response, which we will put on your fingertips.

So you're gonna just answer yes or no, and you're gonna sit like a statue for like four or five minutes at the most. I won't, we'll do that, and then after the first chart, we can call pain in and then, and don't move. So make sure you don't move, okay? Like I said, you're gonna sit like a statue. So are you ready? Okay, so I'm gonna, you don't need to so make sure you don't move, okay? Like I said, you're gonna sit like a statue. So are you ready?

Okay, so I'm gonna, you don't need to stand up, honey. I'm gonna get this chain around you. So I'm gonna come on over to you, and then lean back a little bit for me. And I want it snug, but not too tight. One more, and then you can put your arms down. I'm gonna put this on your arm for the blood pressure, and then leave this hand here, and I will put this on your arm for the blood pressure. And then leave this hand here.

And I will put peace on here. So I appreciate you volunteering for this. Well, it'll help the investigation concentrate on where it should be. There you go. See, that's good. You're doing another good deed. And you can just relax right there, OK?

Take a deep breath for me. Are you ready to start the test? Yes. Okay. Is today Sunday? Yes. Have you ever eaten at McDonald's? Yes. All right.

This is a relevant question. Have you ever had sexual contact with Florence? All right, this is a relevant question. Have you ever had sexual contact with Florence? Oh, no. Okay. Have you ever flown on an airplane? Yes. Is Florence Okpiluk alive? Unknown. Do you know how to ride a bike? Yes.

In the last year, have you ever been pulled over by a police officer and lied to get out of a ticket? No. Okay. Do you know what happened to Florence? No. Are there other people involved in her disappearance? Unknown? Did you ever sneak out of the house when you were a little boy? It doesn't matter. It's not a relevant question.

You guys are noted best. No. Okay. Okay. That is that is the end of our first chart. No. Okay. Okay. That is... That is the end of our first chart. Alright, I'm...

So that chart was stopped. I'm gonna start a new chart. Okay. Are you comfortable? You wanna drink water or anything? I took a couple while we were talking. Okay. Alright, got your breathing... Got your blood pressure... Alright. Are you ready to start the test?

Yes. Okay. Have you ever eaten a Taco Bell? Yes. Okay. I have a lot of questions here. Okay. Do you know how to ride a bicycle? Yes.

Okay. Have you ever had sexual contact with Florence Ockley? No. Have you ever ridden on a train? Yes. Did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? Yes. Okay. When you were a teenager, did you ever steal from a grocery store?

Yes. Okay. Do you know how to ride a horse? Yes. Okay. Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked? No. Okay.

Do you know what happened to Florence? No. Before today, have you ever lied to a police officer to get out of serious trouble? Yes. All right. We're done with this chart. like a police officer to get out of serious trouble? Yes. All right. We're done with this chart. I'm going to let Payne know.

So have you told the truth about everything that you know about Florence? I'll read back on. No, I should ask her. Oh, yes. Jessica sent me a text asking me to come back inside. Oh, God, what is it now? Why do fintechs like Float choose Visa?

As a more trusted, more secure payments network, Visa provides scale, expertise, and innovative payment solutions. Learn more at visa.ca slash fintech. What happened was, is I gave her a ride. I met her earlier through my girlfriend. You got her best. I want to let you drink. I'll let you drink. I'll let you drink.

Yeah, we have a timer, so we only need 20 to 30 seconds of a question to give his body time to settle down and react. Yeah, so I mean, they're federal standardized polygraphs. You can only keep someone hooked up for so long. Yeah, right. Pumping up their... Or it's becoming ridiculous. Yeah, so now, the third set...

Here came the first monkey wrench. John felt that some of the questions I prepared for him were unfair. Because in a polygraph test, you must answer yes or no questions only. And I agree with him. Because if he doesn't actually know something, then he couldn't really answer yes or no. So on the fly right there in the room I quickly made up two new questions. I showed Jessica, she approved, and then John began asking why we weren't filming this test. I explained it to him that I wanted to give him an opportunity to take this polygraph without all the theatrics, even admitting to him that it probably make me nervous too. But I stepped out once more so they could

finish the first test. To me that would feel like nerve- wracking, like get cameras out of my face kind of thing. I was kind of actually expecting that. No, no, I was kind of hoping for it. So that the people actually see that this actually happened. So that's why I'm here now. Right. So I wanted to give you more data. So my point here is for everyone to know that this actually happened. So this So I wanted to give you more data. So my point here is for you

want to know that this actually so this one I'll be here I won't say anything about I'm going to film this one. Check. Okay. So here we go round two I guess. John wants this next one filmed. No problem. We had to adjust two of the questions. So once they were back set up, I left the room once more to let them finish. But now we at least have two sets of data to compare by the end of all these sessions. He respected that, and I also respected the fact that he wanted the world to see him for his own vindication.

I left the room once more to let them finish the test. And once they were done, we planned on filming the next one. I sat down at this tiny table and positioned myself quietly at the edge, pulled out my iPhone and just started filming. Are you ready to start the test? Yes. Is today Friday? No. Okay. Have you ever eaten a Taco Bell? Yes.

Okay. Have you ever had sexual contact with Florence Awkwidlock? No. Have you ever ridden on a train? Yes. Do you know what happened to Florence? No. In the last year, have you ever lied to a police officer to get out of serious trouble? Yes.

Okay. Do you know how to make pancakes? Yes. Okay. Did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? Yes. Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked?

Yes. You heard this test already in the very beginning of the episode, but it wasn't until 24 hours later once I got back home, thousands of miles away from here, that I noticed something very odd from the first test he took with Jessica. After all, I wasn't in the room. So this was the first time I had heard any of the audio from it. This is where things start to unravel a bit. Let's go back to that first test, the one where I'm not there. It's just the two of them.

And let's rewind back to that very last question. Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked? No. Have you withheld information from anyone else who's asked. Pretty straightforward in my opinion. His answer the first time, when I was not in the room, was no, meaning no, he has not withheld any information regarding Florence to anyone else who's asked. Not the police, anyone, including me. Okay, but what's stranger is that during the second test, the one where I'm there, literally sitting across the table, he has a completely different answer.

Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked? Yes. Yes. Yes? So you are withholding information? He was asked the same question twice. And it wasn't a complicated one. First test, no. Second test, oddly enough when I'm in the room with him, his answer is yes. This wasn't a polygraph reading. This wasn when I'm in the room with him, his answer is yes.

This wasn't a polygraph reading. This wasn't a twitch in the needle. It was a verbal contradiction. You heard it. Even if I try to play devil's advocate here and come up with a million reasons why he answered the questions differently, the irony behind all of this makes everything different. Have you was held information from anyone else who's asked? That very question is the sole reason John is here in the first place.

Because John has swore to me up and down for hours upon hours on the phone that he has in fact told me all he knows. Which is why he came here today. To prove to me and anyone, that that's true. So what is he holding back? Anything? Was it just a word slip-up? Take the polygraph out entirely, and what you have is a man giving two completely different

answers to the same question within a 20-minute period. A question that's tethered to the entire reason he's here today. Hmm. Before we packed up, I gave John the chance to say, well, whatever he'd like to, on record. To the family, the community, you guys. I wanna give you the opportunity just to say

why you chose to do this today, your piece, and so people can see that and whatever you want to add. Also want to say thank you for being a man of your word. I just like you want to move on through life and keep searching for the truth. Truth is very important to me. It's part of my beliefs and my religion and everything. And the reason, to be honest, the biggest reason why I want to do this was to give my life a little peace.

Flo and Flo's family deserves to know that this area here is not you know to concentrate to be able to look at other places because as long as suspicion is upon me it's not going to be looked at in other places or as much I don't want to be barking up the wrong tree either you know yeah? Yeah, and nobody deserves anything like this to happen to him. And if anything I can do to help, I have to. Well thanks again, man. I'm glad it was a relief. One question. Do I pass? The question we all want to know, right?

But let's talk for a second here. I know how split the audience will be on any polygraph result at all. If you're someone who firmly believes it's all junk science, or if you're someone who has a lot of faith in this test for whatever reason, or you're somewhere in the middle, I want you to ask yourself right now, will these results do anything for you? Or have you already made up your mind? I told Jessica to hold off on telling anyone, even myself, what the results were until the entire test was over and everyone was out of that building and back in a safe place.

A few hours later, after she had a chance to review the charts, I came back in and asked myself, and before you hear this, I want you to remember everything I've said about polygraph tests. They're debated amongst the science community. Inadmissible in court. It's just a tool. Remember that. Now, what's your reaction going to be? Some discussion.

You can wait until things are back. Of course. Yeah, I'll wait so I don't know if he'll eat it. Yeah, yeah. But, I mean, good for him coming in to do it. So what do we think? So let me look at this. Let me pull these up so I can accurately,

even though I know some off the top of my head. accurately, even though I know some off the top of my head. So, did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? There were signs of deception. Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked on that one? There were signs of deception and I think he moved on that one too so I can't say with 100 accuracy because of the movement that he did. Have you ever had sexual contact with Florence? Definitely not.

Florence. Definitely not Val. And the two that were the ones where we had to change that is Florence alive, he was him hind and he didn't know how to answer it. So he didn't want to confirm yes or no. And correct. I get that. And also the one where are there other people involved

in her disappearance? It was showing deception, even though, but he was also moving. He was him hind because he wasn't sure how to answer it. Then he also answered yes to one of the questions he did. He did answer yes. So. We do a question about withholding information. Right. So that's why I was going to say so the first time he didn't. But the second time he did. I don't know's what I was going to say. So the first time he didn't, but the second time he did.

I don't know. When I was in here he said yes. So when he said yes, that one was true, that he withheld information. He failed questions. Big ones, in fact. He contradicted himself. He spiked off the charts when asked about having sexual contact with Florence, which is strange enough considering sex itself isn't a crime unless it was non-consensual.

So, I'm going to let that resonate with you. It is what it is. But next week, I'll have Jessica on the podcast to further explain in detail all this data from the tests. And as for me, a major question still remains. What does John still know that he's not telling me about Florence? Or does he have a good explanation for why he lied about it?

What you heard today was real. What it all means, part of that's up to you. Stay tuned next week for another episode of Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun. And thank you again to John for being a man of your word and making the effort to do this in the first place. Our investigation into Florence and Joseph isn't over. Don't you guys know me by now?

We have even more new information that is going to change everything. I'm looking at it on my computer screen right now. But it's not for clicks, y'all. One step at a time. The truth is what I care about. See you next week. Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun is a production of Tenderfoot TV in association with Odyssey. Your host is Payne Lindsay. The show is written by Payne Lindsay with additional assistance from Mike Rooney.

Executive producers are Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay. Lead producer is Mike Rooney, along with producers Dylan Harrington and Cooper Skinner. Editing by Mike Rooney and Cooper Skinner with additional editing by Dylan Harrington. Supervising producer is Tracy Kaplan. Additional production by Victoria McKenzie, Alice Knieck Glenn, and Eric Quintana.

Artwork by Rob Sheridan. Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Mix and mastered by Cooper Skinner. Thank you to Oren Rosenbaum and the team at UTA, Beck Media and Marketing, and the Nord Group. Special thanks to all of the families and community members that spoke to the team. Additional information and resources

can be found in our show notes. For more podcasts like Up and Vanished, search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app or visit us at tenderfoot.tv. Thanks for listening.