Up and Vanished - Q&A with Payne Lindsey and Philip Holloway 07.06.17

Episode Date: July 7, 2017

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don't think the indictment was necessarily poorly written. I think that it should have alleged a date in February when the statute of limitations would have begun to run. It simply says that the crime was unknown until February of this year. I'm speaking about Bo's indictment. I don't think it was necessarily poorly written. I think it should have alleged a date in February of 2017 when the crime became known to law enforcement. It simply says the month of February. I think it should have been more specific than that. But other than that, I don't necessarily believe that the indictment was poorly written. Now, when you talk about Ryan's indictment, I do think there was some

deficiencies there. I think it should have been more specific in how it alleged that Ryan used his hand to commit murder. I've always said that it should have been more specific. They should have alleged how he used his hand to commit aggravated assault, how he used his hand to commit murder. As to the second part of that Twitter question, I am not at all prepared to accuse anybody of any intentional misconduct or conspiracy or cover-up. I do think there's some things that need to be investigated more thoroughly, like what exactly law enforcement knew and when they knew it. More thoroughly, like what exactly law enforcement knew and when they knew it, that's an investigation that most definitely needs to happen. But I'm not at all prepared to accuse anybody of any wrongdoing regarding any aspect of this case at this point. That would be a very serious accusation, and it would be entirely inappropriate to make such an accusation without some solid evidence to back it up.

At C Crane 786 asks on Twitter, is Bo really out free with no restrictions? Yes, Bo is out on bail. And as far as restrictions are concerned, that would be bond conditions. Typical bond conditions are things like while you're out on bail, don't break any laws. Don't use alcohol or take drugs without a prescription, things like that. But for the most part, he's free to live his life as he sees fit while he's out on bail. Elamirada asks, when can we expect a trial for either Bo or Ryan? Well, that certainly is a good question and one that unfortunately I can't answer. My crystal ball is very unclear at the moment. Dusty has told us about people in the Irwin County Jail that have been waiting for a trial for years. So when you

have a case that has as many moving parts as this one has, there's really no way to know, bearing in mind that it's probably going to have to be moved outside of Irwin County if in fact there's going to be a trial. And that in and of itself is going to necessitate a certain degree of delay because you have to keep in mind you've got to house the judge somewhere else. You've got to house the prosecutors. You've got to house the defense team. You may have to put witnesses up in some type of lodging. You've got law enforcement that has to be moved to deal with the security issues in terms of transporting a prisoner. And so the fact that the trial will undoubtedly take place somewhere else means that it's going to, in all likelihood, take a while.

If I had to guess, and it is simply a guess, I would say roughly a year. That's about as close as I can get to reading the tea leaves. But again, if I had to guess, it would be about a year. That's about as close as I can get to reading the tea leaves. But again, if I had to guess, it would be about a year. Now, if it turns out that Bo is no longer a cooperating witness, all bets are off as to when his case may go to trial because he's in a different judicial circuit. He's not a co-defendant to Ryan. He has separate charges in a different county. And if his counsel feels like he may have certain defenses, like a statute of limitations defense now, they could file what's called a demand for speedy trial, and that could speed things up quite a bit. But if Bo is a cooperating witness, then the disposition of his charges would not take place until after a trial in Ryan's case,

whenever that may be. Bianca McNeese asks, why does the court have to move? Is it more cost effective to bring a jury in from elsewhere, or is that the law? Well, the answer is that a change of venue, whether you move the trial to another place or you bring a jury in from another county, neither option is very cost effective. And judges do not like to forcibly relocate jurors. In other words, if you were to bring someone from, say, the Atlanta area and tell them that they had to come and live in Irwin County in a hotel or a motel for a week or two or three weeks, however long it might take to try this case, that's not going to be a happy person. And jurors are always inconvenienced by having to serve.

But the last thing that you want is a jury that is from another location that doesn't live there. And you basically forcibly uproot them from their homes, their lives, their families, and make them come to Irwin County. So bringing a jury in is an option, but it's not one that judges like to use. So in all likelihood, the trial would be moved to another county. And that means the judge, the participants, the defendants, the lawyers, everybody has to go to another county. And that means the judge, the participants, the defendants, the lawyers, everybody has to go to another location. And the law says that it has to go to a county that has similar demographics to Irwin County. There's plenty of places around Georgia that that could

happen. You don't have to go very far outside of Atlanta, just maybe 30 or 40 minutes or so. And there's lots of rural counties that have relatively similar demographics to Irwin County. So where the trial would take place is anybody's guess, but there's lots of places in Georgia that are very rural and would be similar in terms of demographics to Irwin County. Hey, Payne. My name is Cassandra from Oxford, Mississippi. I'm a big fan of the podcast, really have been following it since the beginning. My question is, since this podcast is coming to a close, are you feeling a little bit more like you've resolved this case?

Are you feeling a little bit sad that this is coming to a close? Keep up the great work. Can't wait to hear the rest of the season. It's definitely a bittersweet feeling. For the past two years now, all I've been doing pretty much every single day has been trying to figure out what happened to Tara. I've talked to hundreds of people,

been to Osceola more times than I can even count, and it's just been an overall very intense experience. On the bright side, I do think that we've made some serious progress in the actual case. When the podcast first started, we had no idea what happened to Tara. And now almost a year later, there's been two arrests and a much clearer story is emerging about what likely happened to Tara. So in the last two episodes, we're going to do our best to get all the truth out there. And from that point forward, our goal is to let the justice system go to work. Obviously, in the event of a trial for both Ryan or Bo, we'll be there recording and the podcast will cover that.

But after episode 24, we want the system to go to work. But we'll always follow any major developments in the case, all the way down to the verdict. We're also in the beginning stages of season two of Up and Vanished on a whole brand new case. And we're very excited to share more with you guys in the near future. Think of the last time you bought something to wear, something to decorate your house,

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Hi, I love the podcast. I just have a quick question about the statute of limitations. It was stated in a previous episode that the clock starts ticking when they're aware of the crime. And I was just curious where Bo is being charged with a different crime being the concealment of the body, when would the clock start ticking with that? Because when were they actually made aware that it was actually concealed? And would that clock be considered the same as when they were made aware of the murder? So I was wondering if that was a technicality that would come into play with the timing related to the statute of limitations in Bo's case. Thank you very much.

Love the podcast. Thank you. It should be noted that there is no statute of limitations whatsoever for murder. So that's not even an issue for Ryan. If law enforcement, however, had any knowledge back in 2005, for example, of Bo's involvement in this, then Bo may very well have a complete defense. We know from episode 22 that law enforcement at least had some information about the pecan orchard. They had information about Ryan. They took statements from witnesses. So if I'm representing Bo, I'm going to dig deep into that issue and I'm going to find out what they knew and when they knew it.

If they had any information back in 2005 about Bo's alleged involvement, then Bo, as alleged in the indictment, then the statute of limitations would not have started in 2005 and it would have started in February of 2017. Hi, I'm Kim from Asheville, North Carolina, and I love the podcast. I just started listening a couple of weeks ago and I've finally caught up. My question is, why did Tara's family not participate in the podcast? I have listened to other similar podcasts and the families have participated. So I was just wondering why none of them have participated in this podcast. Thanks. In the very beginning, I reached out to Osceola Police Chief Billy Hancock, and we met in person before I even made the podcast. And he sort of acted as a line of

communication between me and Tara's family. He told Tara's family about the podcast, and they gave their full support. But over the years, they've been through a lot, more than I can even imagine. And it was just too painful for them to be involved in something like this. But they expressed that they will support anybody who wants to find out what happened to Tara. I did see her parents in the courtroom on the day that Ryan Duke was arrested. And they also stated that day that they still want some more privacy and some more time to heal. So I'm going to respect that, but I hope that one day soon we'll get to sit down and talk. Hi, my name is Rachel from San Antonio, a huge fan of the podcast. Probably feeling like a lot of people, a little devastated after the

last episode of, you know, just wondering about this gag or is it going to be indefinitely and that we may never know what happened to Tara that I think a lot of people that put in, you know, a lot of work and effort over the years kind of feels like there's not going to be justice for Tara. And so I guess for Phillip, my other question statement is, do you think there'll be a movement in Georgia so something like this can't happen again? Anyway, great job, guys. Keep it up. Love the podcast. Can't wait for what's coming up next. To start off, it's fair to say that a lot of people were very much puzzled after the revelations of Episode 22. As for the gag order, the gag order remains in place currently. It is being challenged in the appellate courts, actually in the Supreme Court of Georgia, by media organizations because they believe that even the amended or loosened gag order, if you will, is unconstitutional.

So that issue has been raised and it's been filed with the Georgia Supreme Court, I'm told, by one of the attorneys representing one of the media outlets. But if the trial occurs any time within the next year or so, in all likelihood, occurs any time within the next year or so, in all likelihood, that would occur before the Supreme Court might take up and rule on the issue of the gag order. So in all likelihood, the current gag order is going to stay in place until the duration of both cases. And the caller's reference to something like this won't happen again, well, you got to keep in mind, we still don't know what this is. We know from episode 22 that local law enforcement, at a minimum, knew something about the pecan orchard, knew something about Ryan, took statements from witnesses. And according to the revelation in 22, it was passed on to the GBI. Now, that in and of itself warrants an investigation to find

out what this is. If it's a situation where the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing, well, that's one thing. If it's something more nefarious, which I prefer to believe that it's not, but again, an investigation is warranted. If it turns out to be something more nefarious, then I would fully suspect that the appropriate remedial actions would be taken against anybody that may be involved. But it's important to remember not to put the cart before the horse. We learned some things that were certainly shocking in episode 22, but it's something that is going to have to be fully investigated one way or another. But whatever happened back in 2005,

whether it was a simple mistake, if it's an honest mistake, if it was negligence, or whether it was even worse, something like corruption, it's going to need to be investigated because we have to find out where the breakdown occurred and why. And I would fully expect that once that question is answered, then whatever remedial measures may be necessary would be implemented. Hey, Payne. I'm a big fan of the podcast, and I was just wondering if Ryan has gotten a new attorney or if he's still using the public defender. Thanks. Ryan Duke is still using his state-appointed public defender. His name is John Mobley. I am kind of surprised that no big hotshot attorney has reached out to Ryan Duke or his family in such a high profile case, but that could always change when it comes time for the trial. Hey guys, this is Megan from Minnesota. I just finished listening to the gag order episode and I had a question for Phillip. I theoretically was wondering if the DA of Tifton had a conflict of interest in how he was prosecuting this case and how he would be reprimanded and who would reprimand him. I love your podcast. Keep up the great work.

So the caller makes reference to the revelation in episode 22 that the district attorney's son was friends with Bo Dukes. Maybe he still is. That in and of itself does not give rise to a legal conflict of interest. However, if the district attorney's son had some knowledge of this and perhaps was a witness in the case, that would give rise to being a conflict of interest and would require recusal. In my personal experience with Paul Bowden, he's an honorable person, and I don't believe that he would do anything unethical. I don't personally believe that he was involved in any kind of cover-up. Some people may choose to believe that he was based on what they've heard

so far, and everybody can have their own opinion. If Mr. Bowden believes that recusal is appropriate, I'm satisfied that he would do so. If either of the defense attorneys involved in representing either Ryan or Bowe believe there's a conflict of interest. And let's keep in mind, they certainly know more about the evidence in this case than we do at this point. But if they believe that it would be appropriate for the district attorney to be recused, they can always file a motion with the court asking for that to happen. The district attorney could voluntarily recuse himself if he believes there's any appearance of impropriety. But I'm not prepared to say that there was any impropriety simply because his son was a friend or an acquaintance or whatever you

want to call him with someone who's now a criminal defendant in another jurisdiction. This is Justin from Birmingham, Alabama. In episode 21, you mentioned that your Facebook account had been hacked and some email addresses have been created that you didn't create. I was wondering if anything you thought at that time that it was possibly related to the case. I was wondering if you guys were able to determine who did that or whether or not it was in fact related to this case or just someone out there trying to make your life a living hell. Anyway, thanks, man. Appreciate it. Look forward to hearing the Q&A. Keep it up. I suspect that it's probably both of those things.

I was never able to determine the exact identity of the person who hacked my Facebook, but we did track down an IP address that I think was in India or something that didn't really make any sense. The only reason I thought that it was related to the case was because somebody had made two fake Yahoo accounts. And one of them was called upandvanishedatyahoo.com. And that was directly linked to the person who hacked my Facebook. So I'm convinced that whoever did it at least knew about the podcast and was trying to disrupt my life a little bit. But we got it back and hopefully it won't happen again. Hey Payne, this is Tyler from Monroe, Georgia,

and this question is for all of y'all. The question is, with the indictment coming in Ben Hill County over Bo Dukes, and what we said it was a safe face, or his lawyer said it was a safe face to try to make something happen, do we believe there was pressure from a DA in Irwin County

to indict Bo Dukes on the account of tampering with evidence and such and such as was pulled through? Or do we believe that Bo Dukes is actually guilty of what he's done and actually may have been involved in the murder at South Territory instead? Just trying to get y'all's opinion on that so we all feel. Hope you can answer this question on the podcast. Great work. The caller is making reference to a communication that was circulated, basically screenshotted a text message, and Beau sent it to his friend, and it got out publicly where his lawyer was stating his opinion about why Bo was arrested in the first place. And that simply is the opinion of the person who wrote that statement. So the traditional way

to begin a criminal case is to swear out an arrest warrant, which is what they did. And then the traditional thing to do is to present the case to a grand jury at the appropriate time. And that's what happened. So speaking for myself and for this podcast, we're not accusing anybody of doing anything underhanded or for political reasons. That was simply the opinion of whoever wrote that statement, presumably Bo's lawyer. opinion of whoever wrote that statement, presumably Bo's lawyer. So we are not accusing anybody of doing anything unethical or underhanded. The traditional process begins with an arrest warrant followed by a grand jury presentment or perhaps the filing of an accusation if you waive grand jury, as we discussed in a recent case evidence. But it appears that the criminal

process regarding Bo and Ryan, for that matter, has followed the traditional approach, beginning with an arrest warrant, followed by the filing of a formal charging document. In each of these cases, that was a grand jury indictment. The information is out there in the public domain, these cases, that was a grand jury indictment. The information is out there in the public domain, and people can choose to believe whatever they choose to believe based on the information that is out there in the public domain. It does appear that at some point in the past, it was Beau's belief that he would not be arrested. And it appears to have come as a surprise to him and his lawyer that he was going to be arrested. And they had some opinions about that, and those opinions belong to them.

Everybody else who sees this information is free to draw their own conclusions from it. But nobody here is accusing anybody of doing anything for any improper reason. Hey, guys. Eric from Cincinnati here. Just had a question, Not sure if it's been covered. Do we know for sure that Tara wasn't at the party with the big group of people? Maybe that's how she got mud on her tires and why maybe somebody drove her back home and then something happened at the house. Just a thought. Good work. Thanks. There's very few things that we know for sure right now. And that's a good point.

And it's one that I've made a couple of times. To me, it always seemed less likely that Tara was murdered inside of her house, especially the idea that Ryan just went there on his own and broke in there with a credit card and her dog didn't bark or anything and wake her up. It just seemed pretty unbelievable. But like you said, we don't know what exactly happened. I don't exactly believe the GBI's narrative. Could Tara have been at the party that night? Possibly, yes. Do I know for sure? Absolutely not. But with subtle clues like the mud on her tires and stuff like that, it definitely makes you think that something way different could have happened. See yourself buying a home one day? Do future you a favor. Open a Questrade first home savings

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And we try to have the conversations you have with really, really good friends. The conversations you have when you share a love of something, about ideas, when you want to hear about everything. I feel really lucky to have these conversations. Cue with Tom Power. Available now on Spotify. Hey, this is Chad in South Dakota.

I appreciate the podcast. And the question I have for you is when you talked about the cadaver dog searching for scents of a cadaver or the smells that remained where a cadaver was. I was thinking that they said they searched everywhere, including Tara's own property, and that they didn't get a hit. And yet it sounds like the story is that Ryan killed Tara in her house. And so if he had killed her in her house, wouldn't the dogs have found the scent of a cadaver? If you could clarify that,

I'd appreciate it. Thanks for all your work. Throughout the podcast, I've talked to several cadaver dog experts, and they've all told me that the dogs are very talented and can smell cadaver in almost any circumstance. They've also said that the cadaver smell that they're smelling is created within minutes of the person dying. So yes, in theory, if Tara did die in her home, any cadaver dog searching in her house

should have smelled cadaver. The fact that they didn't suggests again that maybe she wasn't murdered there. Hi, this is Karen in Dallas, Texas. And I just have a question. It seemed to me like at the end of the last podcast, he indicated that grandfather indicated that they knew what happened to her two months after they did the search in the pecan orchard. Then they knew then what happened to her. Am I unclear on that? I just kind of wonder if that's the truth or not. That'd be awful. All right. Thank you. Great job. Love it. Nope. You heard that correctly. Is it true? I don't know. But if it wasn't, why would he make that up? Hi, Payne. Hi, Up and Vanish team. This is Maddie out of New York City. My question is, Payne, if you will stop at nothing to find the truth, then why are there only two episodes left?

I, and evidently many people, think that if you hadn't asked so many questions in the first place that we might not even have charges against anyone at this juncture. So it's the potential insinuation is that there's an ulterior motive for the prosecution to pursue the case in a certain way, do we not need an independent and sort of removed line of questioning now more than ever? Or is this an attempt on your part to sort of step back and respect the process and let it run its due course for some time? I absolutely love the podcast, support you guys through and through, and thanks. By the time it's all over in the next two episodes, we will have covered a whole bunch of information and I'm going to put all the cards out on the table. But like you said, at a certain point, I want to respect the process and let it unfold

how it's supposed to. I think it's always important to question what you're hearing and seeing. And if there's hidden truth, it needs to be told. I feel confident that by episode 24, we will have covered all the important factors where this case currently stands. Thanks for listening, guys. Today's episode was mixed and mastered by Resonate Recordings. If you want to improve the quality of your podcast

or start a podcast of your own, go to resonaterecordings.com and get your first episode produced for free. This episode was recorded at Industrious Atlanta, Ponce City Market. For $250 off your first month's office rent, visit industriousoffice.com slash vanished. And be sure to stay tuned for K7 is next Monday. Thanks, guys. I'll see you soon.