Up and Vanished - Q&A with Payne Lindsey, Dr. Maurice Godwin, & Philip Holloway 07.20.17

Episode Date: July 21, 2017

Payne Lindsey, Dr. Godwin, and Philip Holloway answers your questions from our Voicemail line. Have a question? Call us at 770-545-6411. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone else close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. Hello, team. First, I wanted to say thank you so much for an awesome podcast. My question is more of a theory. Now, if Beau is really the mastermind of all of this, and he has legal counsel in the form of his uncle or his district attorney relative, could he be sort of sowing the seed with all of these, I guess, messages on Twitter and through his girlfriend of a story that isn't true? Just a thought that possibly someone has told him to break the gag order in a way to just show false information that might lead to a mistrial or confuse things.

Thank you so much. I really can't wait to hear the last episode. Well, that's certainly a very good question, and it's unfortunately one that only Bo would have the answer to because there's really no way of knowing just exactly what's going on inside his head. It's important to remember he does have a lawyer, though, and it's not the district attorney or anybody else. It's a private lawyer. And I can hardly fathom an attorney would, in the first place, advise a client to violate a gag order. Secondly, I can't fathom that an attorney, and there's no reason to think that his attorney is anything but completely ethical, I can't imagine that an attorney would advise a client to be not only violating the gag order, but to be saying things that are either true or

not true when it could potentially violate any agreement that they may have and further complicate that lawyer's efforts to properly defend the client. Because that's what the lawyer wants to do, is they want to operate in the client's best interest and do what's best by the client. It would appear, from what we've seen, that Beau is doing everything that he can, whether on purpose or not, to frustrate his lawyer's ability to properly represent him. And as I've said before, if he were my client, I would have fired his ass a long time ago for conduct like this. Hey Payne, this is Michael Smith from Portland, Oregon. I had a question about how tall Bo is. So I know we had some discussion on previous

podcasts about how the seat in her car, Tara's car, was pushed back quite a bit, but Ryan is a relatively short guy, but I don't recall ever you guys ever discussing how tall Bo is, and I just wondered if that might be another kind of clue in the case. Love the podcast. You're killing it. Enjoy listening all the way out here on the West Coast. Thanks. Yeah, so Bo Dukes and Ryan Duke are completely different in height. Bo Dukes is about six foot two and Ryan Duke is about five, eight, five, nine. So when you're talking about moving the seat back in Tara's car, it would make more sense for a tall person to move the seat back, not a short person. With the new information about Bo's alleged aggressive sexual past,

I'm wondering if there was something sexual between Bo and Tara, or Bo, Tara, and Ryan, for that matter. Maybe Bo or Ryan was too aggressive and something went wrong. Maybe they both feel responsibility and worked together to burn the body. I'm not quite sure, but it seems like there could be some correlation. I think Bo's involvement in this crime is a lot more than we actually know. A lot of people suspect he's more involved. At this particular time, we actually don't know, but I personally think that he's a lot more involved. If there was any kind of sexual activity at all by Bo, it would be against

her will because he has this aggressive behavior. It sure would not be consensual. This is Adeline from Stockbridge. I just want to say that I love the show and I love that you're hoping to bring a lot of things to light that probably wouldn't have been without you. I just finished the last episode that was put out and I was wondering if the man that called in at the very end who was married to Ashley, if he reported any of this to the police and if he did or didn't, will the police look into any of these things potentially like now they're trying to build a case and if they do, could anything be done about these things? Because they're pretty incriminating statements if they're right. And I was just wondering how that would all pan out possibly in terms of proving Bo's guilt or just his overall lack of empathy for every single person.

Thanks so much. I look forward to hearing from you guys. Well, we don't know what law enforcement is or is not investigating. We don't know what exactly they have or have not investigated completely. We've got some pretty good ideas about a lot of things, but due to the gag order, number one, and prior to the gag order due to the historic silence by the GBI as to this case in general, we're sort of left guessing at what they're looking into. But if the GBI is now aware,

and I would have to assume that they are because we have reason to believe that they follow the podcast, this is certainly something that, if it were my investigation, I would want to follow up with. I would want to look into this because it may mean nothing more than somebody's making something up about Beau that's not true. And it may be that somebody's telling the truth about

something that Beau may or may not have been involved in with his ex-wife. If it turns out to be true, then the question is, is it relevant to the investigation? And if it's relevant to the investigation, then they would need to look more closely at Beau's past and, in particular, his past conduct because it may have some bearing on his credibility. And if his credibility is in question, then they may need to go back and take a closer look at what he's told them about his involvement in this case so far and whether or not he's been truthful. And if you take that a step further, and if there's a trial in the case, we want to know if what Bo says at trial is true. And that's something that's important for both the prosecution and the defense to really get their head wrapped around is Bo's credibility on the witness stand. If this

were my case and I were in charge of the investigation at this point, I would take a very, very close and hard look at Bo's entire social media history, including any dating sites he may have been involved in, any online relationships he may have had. I would look into every personal relationship with anybody that I could find to learn whether or not Bo has ever said anything to anybody about this case that law enforcement was not previously aware of. If it were to turn out that it was simply some type of sexual fetish that has nothing to do with the facts of this case, so be it. But I would want to know whether or not that's the case. My only thing is every time y'all say pecan, I don't think of a tree. Out here in Texas, we have pecan trees, but y'all say pecan, so that's my only issue.

But anyway, y'all doing a good job. Appreciate that. We can say pecan. I honestly don't know how to say that word at all. I've heard pecan, pecan, and pecan, and pecan. I don't know how to say it. I think that I've said it more than one way throughout this whole podcast. And everyone I talk to says it differently too. I don't know though. I kind of prefer pecan. This is Chanel from Dallas, Texas. I just finished listening to the last episode about Bo Dukes and have a question.

Since we know that he's dishonest and he openly admits to burning Tara's body, is there anything to tie him or anyone else to the fire on Snapdragon Road, since that's the only place that the cadaver dogs hit on within 200 miles? Thank you so much. I really enjoy the show and I appreciate all the hard work that all of y'all have put into it. The answer is no. There was a hit made by a cadaver dog at Snapdragon that potentially evidence was turned over to the GBI. However, they noted results if any, but it's never been released to even the dog handler or anyone else. So there's nothing that Snapdragon that links Bodoaks or Ryan to that location. Hey, guys, this is Cam calling from Kennesaw, Georgia.

Just finished the last episode and just wanted to know the call that was played at the end of the episode, is that something that could be used in court by the DA against Bo Dukes, or could they call the caller in as a witness, or is that all just considered hearsay? Anyway, that's just what I wanted to know. Thanks a lot. Anyway, that's just what I wanted to know. Thanks a lot. How can we authenticate that information? And that would mean bringing in real people to tell what their personal knowledge is because they can't just come into court and repeat what a third party has said necessarily because in most instances that would be hearsay. In other words, it's an out-of-court statement made by some third party who's not subject to cross-examination.

statement made by some third party who's not subject to cross-examination. And if a defendant is not able to cross-examine the person who is making a statement because it's a hearsay statement, then that would violate the confrontation clause in the Constitution. And that's why we have the hearsay rule in the first place. There are many exceptions to the hearsay rule, but usually you've got to bring in the person who actually makes the statement. So the first question has to be, is it relevant? If it is relevant, then is it admissible? Does it violate any of the rules of evidence such as the hearsay rule or other things? There's another issue that comes into play too, because let's say this is the state of Georgia versus Bo Dukes, because remember, he's got his own case.

And you can't bring in evidence of someone's general character to prove that they committed a crime. That's another violation of the rules of evidence. So if it's deemed to be bad character evidence, then you can't just bring someone in and say, this is a person who has bad character, therefore they must be guilty. So those are all things that have to be taken into consideration. We're a long way from this information, if it's true, that was brought out in the last call and having it brought into a courtroom. There's just a lot of things that have to be fleshed out. It would require a thorough investigation. Statements need to be taken from everybody allegedly involved in that scenario. And then the lawyers for both sides would have to decide whether it's something they could or

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the whole story. I can't really wrap my head around it, and I'm not really sure where that comes in. Thanks a lot. To be honest with you, I have no idea how or if at all that uniform that was found in the woods fits into the disappearance of Tara Grinstead whatsoever. I just thought that it was very strange information that a police uniform from the sheriff's department was found buried in the woods somewhere. From what I've gathered, that's not how you properly dispose of a police uniform. I would say that in all likelihood, there's probably no connection to Tara Grinstead. But because of all the layers to this mystery, I don't feel it's safe yet to rule anything out. If the uniform means anything at all, I think it's that someone in the sheriff's department doesn't know how to properly dispose of a uniform. Hi, I'm Kimberly from Brevard, North Carolina. And I'm wondering if everyone

else is thinking what I'm thinking after hearing that last caller on episode 23 say that Beau blindfolded and tied his ex to a tree in the pecan orchard. Maybe I've seen too many crime shows on TV, but doesn't that sound like he's trying to recreate something? It makes me worry that Tara's death may not have been as simple as waking up to a stranger and one swift blow to the temple. I also wonder if he's tied other women to trees and they've just been too afraid to come forward because of intimidation. I've been riveted by this podcast and it's remarkable what you guys have achieved. Congratulations on a job well done. achieved. Congratulations on a job well done. One thing you have to understand about someone like Bo, who is a narcissistic, and you combine that with psychopathic personality traits,

you've got somebody who the most important person in the world is that person themselves, Bo. He could have been just bragging about that. So we don't really know if Beau actually did that or not. There could be some truth to it, and it could just be bragging, given the indication or like a dominance behavior that he has control. He has this much control over a female that he's able to do this. And I thank you very much for the question. Hi, guys. This is Sarah calling from Dallas, North Carolina. Love the podcast. I think you're doing a great job. My question is about the statute of limitations. So it's been explained that the statute of limitations begins as soon as they are aware that a crime has been committed.

I'm wondering if finding any evidence of that crime affects that statute of limitations. So for example, if the police receive a tip that a body has been burned or concealed in some way in the pecan orchard and they go out and they search the pecan orchard and they don't find any evidence of that crime, but at a later date, they go back and they do any evidence of that crime. But at a later date, they go back and they do find evidence of that crime. Has that statute of limitations been running from the time they received the original tip? Or does the fact that they tried to investigate and didn't find

anything affect that statute of limitations? Thanks so much. Can't wait to hear the answer. Well, that's a very good question and one that I think most of us want to know the answer to. And to properly answer that question, we've got to find out a little bit more information about the tip that apparently came out early in the investigation and the search that we now know took place in that orchard in the months preceding Tara's disappearance and her murder. So the statute of limitations begins when any law enforcement officer has any knowledge that a crime was committed. It doesn't even have to be enough knowledge to support probable cause for an arrest. But there's another piece to be considered as well.

The state, through its agents, which are the law enforcement officers usually, they must also know the identity of the perpetrator. So it's going to depend on what information was contained in that tip. If the tip only was about Ryan, then it would otherwise start the statute of limitations running. But in the case of Ryan, there is no statute of limitations for murder. So there would be no issue. If they had information about the crime and if they had information about Bo Dukes being involved in that crime back in 2005, involved in that crime back in 2005, then that would be a more substantial legal hurdle for the district attorney to get over in order to prosecute Bo Dukes for anything. So there's two pieces to it. They've got to have information about the crime, not necessarily the whole story, not necessarily

enough to even make an arrest, but they have to have some knowledge, and they also have to have some knowledge about who committed the crime. So those are the two key questions, and we don't right now know enough about all of the circumstances to know what the answer to that would be. But if I had to bet my last dollar, I would bet that's something that's being investigated very thoroughly right at this very moment. Hi, my name is Murray, and I'm calling from San Francisco. I am enthralled by the podcast. But I do have a question. Have the attorneys for either of the defendants reached out to you about anything ongoing?

I guess it would be covered in a gag order if they have. Or has anybody from the GBI reached out to you for some of the evidence that you've collected in the form of recordings or potential video evidence? Thank you very much, and looking forward to the final episode. Bye. As far as Bo Dukes or Ryan Dukeses attorneys, none of those guys have reached out to me.

I did have a few words with an assistant to John Mobley, who is Ryan Dukes' attorney, in the courtroom one day in Osceola when they were having the hearing about the gag order. On a few occasions, the GBI has reached out to me. We've talked several times over the past few months, but I'm not in a position to disclose too much information about that. This is Krista from Salt Lake City. I've been listening to this podcast all over again for a second time over the past week with my husband while we've been on road trips. And there's one question that I'm really hoping that you will address in the final episode.

you will address in the final episode. And that is the young man who committed suicide and left the note. Were Bo and Ryan on that list of names and the other people at the party and the people that we now know have known about this the whole time? Again, thank you for this. This is awesome. We love it and keep up the good work. The answer is no. Were there any people at the party, bonfire or whatever, were their names on the list? There was at least a couple or possibly three that was at that get together that was their names were on this list. So I hope that answers your question. I'm Samantha Cole, host of the new season of Understood, the Pornhub Empire. Over the course of four episodes, I'll tell you how a horny YouTube knockoff in Canada came to dominate the porn world, only to shatter their cheeky reputation in a massive scandal.

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kept talking. So any other information you can give on that, I'd really appreciate it. Keep up the good work. Looking forward to the finale. Thanks. That's a good question. He's referring to the Twitter conversation that we had in the case evidence episode a few weeks back

where I had two voice actors sort of reenact what they were saying to each other. The woman who was talking to Beau has given this information to the authorities. Hi, this is Sarah and I've been listening from Kentucky. And my first question is about Beau. Do you think that it's at all possible throughout the years, as he has said, that he has enclosed information to several people throughout the years? Do you think it's possible that he did that strategically to kind of create this credibility for himself and his involvement?

And maybe that that information that he shared is false. In all reality, he did that to cover up his true, maybe more prominent role in the murder of Tara. What do you think about that? I also was wondering, is there any evidence that we know of that linked Ryan, besides the tip from Brooke? Is there anything public that we know anything that they found that links to Ryan I'm dying to know about that we keep hearing all this about Bo and what I'm trying to see if there's anything about Ryan thank you for all your hard work first of all he did tell some people but we don't know what he said so we just don't know know how much involvement he claimed to these people. You know, he did.

And then your second question, as of right now, there's no evidence that links Ryan other than a confession or the word of Bo. There's no forensic evidence that we know of that links Ryan to the crime. Now, we don't know what the results of the DNA profile from the Latex Club is at this time because of the gag order. But in reference to Bo trying to put forth a particular narrative over the years, just in case, I think that's giving Bo a little bit too much credit for forward thinking. As far as Bo, after about six or seven, eight years, I mean, if you could go back and ask him, he thought he got by with this. So he wasn't really ever thinking about

he was going to get caught. Hi, my name is Carolyn and I'm calling from New York. First, I was wondering if at this point it would be possible for the charges, the murder charges against Ryan to be dropped and for Bo to be charged, like legally, if that would be possible at this point. And also, I was wondering if Bo could be legally mandated to have a psychiatric evaluation that could be, I guess, used as evidence. Thanks very much. Bye. I'll answer the second question first. If Bo's lawyer believes there's some sufficient basis that would mandate a psychological evaluation, then Bo's lawyer can actually request that the court order a psychological evaluation.

The issue would be whether or not at the time of the alleged offense, The issue would be whether or not at the time of the alleged offense, the accused was under some type of mental disability that would have affected his ability to know right from wrong at the time of the offense. The other issue would be whether or not someone is psychologically or mentally able to stand trial. Those are very two different and distinct legal issues. Personally, in my own opinion, I don't see a basis for a court ordering a mental evaluation of Bo Dukes as to either one of those issues at this point. As to the first question, the short answer is yes, that is absolutely legally possible, but it would have to be based on the district attorney's evaluation of what he believes to be the credible evidence in the case. If something has changed, and it has changed so dramatically that the district attorney believes

that they got it wrong the first time, it is absolutely legally possible for them to dismiss an indictment and to ask a grand jury to consider an indictment in another fashion. But again, we're talking about theory, not necessarily fact, and it all depends on what the actual evidence is. and you have to keep in mind, we are not privy to what the district attorney knows or does not know or what is in the GBI case files. Hi, guys. This is Mary Margaret from Houston, Texas. At the end of the last episode, Dr. Godwin mentioned that the latex glove seemed like a plant if Bo did, in fact, ask Ryan whether he wore the gloves before the latex glove seemed like a plant if Bo did in fact ask Ryan whether he wore the gloves before the latex glove evidence was made public in 2008. It doesn't seem that unreasonable to me that Bo would ask Ryan that in the months after the murder, if only to gauge how much evidence tied

Ryan and by extension Bo to Tara's house. So I was wondering if y'all could clarify your thinking behind the latex glove being a plant. And are y'all implying that Bo planted it to hopefully implicate Ryan rather than himself? Anyway, thanks so much. Can't wait for the season finale. Well, Bo did ask Ryan about that, the glove, and Ryan told him that he didn't use any gloves. Remember, we are relying on what Bo supposedly asked. We rely on what the answer that Bo has given us and so given his history is suspect, very suspect. But in that segment the knowledge about

just the existence of the glove was from that day, that Monday, and then it got out in the news and I made a mistake on that. But in reference to the DNA or any evidence from that glove or that glove having any value to the case. That was revealed on 48 Hours for the first time in 2008. So if it was a concern of Bo's, he wouldn't have known when he asked that question before 2008, he wouldn't have known that there was any kind of forensic link to that glove because according to GBI, the glove links back forensically to Tara too, including a full white male DNA profile on it. So when he asked that question, if he did, he would have known the answer.

And we don't know if he did actually ask him that. We don't know what the conversation was before then between Bo and Ryan. Hi, my name is Donna, and I'm from Swansea, South Carolina. Don't you think it's strange that no one has contacted you from Ryan's family and friends? We've gotten so much information about Bo, but so little, actually none, about Ryan. Seems like somebody would come forward either for or against. Love the podcast. Keep up the fight. Love it. That is a very good point. We have talked to a lot of people who knew Bo Dukes at some point,

whether it be a former friend or Army mate, and we sure have learned a lot about him. As far as Ryan Duke goes, just because you haven't heard it on the podcast yet doesn't mean that I haven't talked to anybody. I'm hoping that very soon I can elaborate on that. Thanks for listening, guys. Today's episode was mixed and mastered by Resonate Recordings. If you want to improve the quality of your podcast or start a podcast of your own, go to resonaterecordings.com and get your first episode produced for free. This episode was recorded at Industrious Atlanta, Ponce City Market.

For $250 off your first month's office rent, visit industriousoffice.com slash vanished. And be sure to stay tuned for K7 is next Monday. Thanks guys. I'll see you soon.