Up and Vanished - S1E23: Who is Bo Dukes?

Episode Date: July 18, 2017

Exploring the details of Bo Dukes' mysterious conversation with a stranger.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Get ready for Las Vegas style action at BetMGM, the king of online casinos. Enjoy casino games at your fingertips with the same Vegas strip excitement MGM is famous for. When you play classics like MGM Grand Millions or popular games like Blackjack, Baccarat and Roulette with our ever-growing library of digital slot games, a large selection of online table games, and signature BetMGM service. There is no better way to bring the excitement and ambience of Las Vegas home to you than with BetMGM Casino. Download the BetMGM Casino app today. BetMGM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly. BetMGM.com for Ts and Cs.

19 plus to wager. O-N only. Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to any operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Hey guys, before we get started today,

I wanted to remind you that there's only one more episode left and Up and Vanished season one will come to an end with episode 24 on Monday, July 31st. It's been a truly amazing journey to say the least. I've talked to countless people in connection to Tara Grinstead's case, and I've built close relationships with people that will last a lifetime. I had no idea what to expect going into this, but the results we've achieved together have blown me away. I want to thank you as listeners for all your support and positivity throughout all this. And I want to thank all those who were close to Tara

who found the courage to speak out on this podcast and to shine some light on the truth in hopes that one day we would all finally know what happened to her. And though season one will come to an end soon, we will never back down from seeking the truth. And in the event of a trial in this case, we'll be covering it with new episodes.

We've also been working on something very special over the past few months that we're really excited to share with you. After season one is over, myself and the Up and Vanish team will be traveling the country to put on a live show version of the podcast. I've been working on this case for almost two years now, and I have hours of exclusive video footage and audio that have

never made it into the podcast. And this year, we'll be traveling to over 15 cities nationwide to share with you an exclusive audio and video experience of season one of Up and Vanished. I'll be sharing with you all the untold stories throughout my investigation with documentary footage, exclusive interviews, and a live audience Q&A with several Up and Vantage contributors and myself. The cities include Durham, North Carolina, St. Louis, Chicago, Minneapolis, Seattle, Los Angeles, Portland, San Francisco, Dallas, Houston, Austin, New York, Boston, D.C., Atlanta, and many more. Recently, we created a Tara Grinstead Scholarship Fund with a $3,000 donation from the Up and Vanish podcast. 10% of all ticket sales from our live shows will be donated to this same scholarship fund

to encourage young minds to pursue their passions and dreams. We'll have more information about the Tara Grinstead Scholarship in the finale episode and all the other ways you can support this cause. Tickets go on sale this Friday, July 21st, but right now we have an exclusive pre-sale offer for Up and Vanish listeners. This Wednesday, July 19th, you can get your ticket early by using the promo code VANISHED on the ticketing website. Just go to upandvanished.com slash live for all the details and our tour schedule. And stay tuned, as more dates will be announced soon. Again, that's upandvanished.com

slash live. And use the promo code VANISHED to get your pre-sale tickets. Come experience Season 1 in a whole new way. With exclusive documentary footage and audio and a live Q&A with me and the rest of the Up and Vanish team. That's upandvanish.com slash live.

Promo code VANISHED. More than 40 GBI agents swarmed a pecan orchard in Ben Hill County this afternoon. Not one, but two former students from that school under arrest. With the intent to indeed call serious bodily harm to the person of Tara Grinstead. Charging Ryan Alexander Duke with the murder of Tara Grinstead. From Tenderfoot TV at Industrious Atlanta, this is Up and Vanished, the investigation of Tara Grinstead. I'm your host, Payne Lindsey. In today's episode, we're going to further analyze the Twitter conversation between Bo Dukes and a woman I'm

calling Sally. Before we dive in, if you haven't listened to last week's Case Evidence episode, you need to. We'll be referencing several important statements that Bo Dukes made during this online communication. After receiving this transcript, I went through it line by line. Bo divulged a lot of detail, but how much of what he said are we to believe as truth? And how does Boudouk's statements here align with all the other stories we've heard from his girlfriend Brooke? Does it all match up? I spoke at length about this with a renowned psychologist from Australia named Dr. Thomason, and she gave me her take on it all. Part of my background is I've worked in the jails, and I worked in a forensic unit in a psychiatric hospital in the States.

And I've also worked in the regular jails here back in Australia. And it's certainly not uncommon for women to find men in prison or with a criminal history incredibly interesting. Well, women, I think, in general, see potential in men and they sort of think, well, if I really love you and I look after you, I can get you out of this hole or I can help mend that broken wing. So it's not uncommon for women to strike up friendships with men who are in jail or have been in jail, as I'm sure you would know. or have been in jail, as I'm sure you would know. And so I sort of detected some of that flavor there because it certainly was very flirty a lot of the time. And I also thought, although she alluded to medical training and talking about patients, I thought,

I don't really think she's a professional interviewer of any kind. Like she didn't strike me as a counseling type because she was very eager to talk about herself. And I would have expected someone who had that sort of interviewing type background would have drawn him out more or tried to, but probably not injected nearly as much of themselves in that conversation. Anyone who has something to lose is crucifying me. It's okay. Everyone wants to know why. Even me. She deserved at least someone to watch.

I'm just glad it can be over for everyone. Well, when he says things like, well, of course, everyone wants to know what happens, even me. It's kind of like, yeah, wow, this is really amazing, isn't it? And I'm so confused about this. I really want to know the answer. Sort of as though, well, like everyone else, I don't know the answer. Gosh, what could it be? So he's kind of subtly implying he's on the outside looking in as well

and as confused as the rest of us. That's interesting. You know, I keep asking why. He's putting himself across as, well, of course, I'm one of the reasonable people in all of this. I keep asking why. Or when he says, I'm glad it can be over for everyone. You know, how generous of him to say that.

And then when he says, I'm so afraid of someone being arrested who is not responsible. Now, these are all very reasonable things to say that normal, reasonable, caring, concerned citizens would say. And then he says things like, no, she deserved someone to watch while she was burning. So it's all subtly implying that, no, he's just a normal person like the rest of us. And I'm very concerned about all this. Is that somebody who is putting that out there to make

their image look better to the public, knowing that they are not that good person or is that him convincing himself that he's a better person good question i don't know enough about him to to be able to to answer that but it's certainly a good distancing technique because you know if you hear yourself saying these things often enough, you brainwash yourself into sort of believing it. Lots of guys in jail really believe that they didn't, well, some guys in jail really believe that they didn't exactly do what they're accused of doing. It's because they've rethought it so many times and they've talked about it. You know, one of the problems with the legal system is if you're going to say,

plead not guilty to something that you know you've done, you have to say over and over and over, I wasn't there, I don't know, et cetera, et cetera. And after a while, you almost believe it. Yeah. If you get a speeding ticket or, you ticket or failing to stop at a stop sign and you replay it in your mind, after a while you can really very easily convince yourself that you didn't stop for a long time but you did kind of pause.

Now that's like stopping. Right. So I think that's part of what probably almost anyone would do, but he is doing it quite a lot. Now he's putting himself across as the concerned citizen. I think that puts him as a more reasonable person. In his mind, he is another one of the reasonable people observing this situation, not a player in it.

Right. Not responsible. And I thought the final touch, if you just remembered yesterday, he said the Lord's Prayer over her. I thought that was masterful because my impression is it's probably a religious town. That also makes him part of the religious community. Exactly.

The first thing I would say about Beau is we know he tells lies. You know, he's been convicted of fraud in the past, so that is about dissembling and lying. So we already know he's a person who tells lies. So in that case, what I have learned in my work is if you're dealing with someone that you know repeatedly tells lies, you actually can't afford to believe anything that they say at all. Because you don't know when they're lying. do is we think we're smart and we pick and choose what we believe and we go, well, I know this guy tends to tell lies, so that possibly isn't true. But no, well, he said such and such. Oh, okay, I'll go off and explore that.

And my philosophy with someone like this is you actually cannot believe anything they say unless you independently verify it. So everything that he said here, the reason I came up with themes rather than comments on each individual theme is because we really can't believe any of the individual things he said. So we're limited in how much analysis we can do until we actually find out, well, how can we prove some of these things? And many of them, of course, we can't. It's just his safer. So the second one was, he's played this up,

this loyalty to Ryan and his sense of himself as a person who is loyal is just, you know, this is who I am and this is what he promotes. And this is what he he promotes. I was protecting my friend and myself. He used my truck. He put her on my family's land. Well, he was my best friend. Yes, it was wrong.

And I knew that then we were friends, but I could have beat his ass physically any day. Now, it's interesting that his loyalty to Ryan apparently has come to a screaming halt because, you know, from what we think we know, he was the one who dobbed Ryan in. So his loyalty only lasted a finite amount of time. So, you know, he talked about protecting his friend, his best friend, supporting his friend. I knew it was wrong and I knew it then, but, and just by saying but, it's kind of like when you put a but to excuse burning someone's body, that's a really big but, isn't it? It's kind of like, okay, so what could possibly follow that but that would justify what you did? And it's kind of like, well, you know, loyal to his friend.

And then he tried to bolster it by saying, and, you know, he could implicate me and it sounds really, you know, just really lame what he said. Well, yes, but highly unlikely. But then he sort of implied that he was scared of Ryan. But then at the end of the Twitter conversation, he was boasting about how, you know, he he was scared of Ryan. But then at the end of the Twitter conversation, he was boasting about how he wasn't scared of Ryan and he could whip his ass or whatever he said any day.

So he's playing the loyalty card, but the loyalty doesn't seem to extend very far. It's certainly not infinite. And also when we look at other kinds of loyalty, well, he wasn't very loyal to the army. He defrauded them. And his loyalty to Brooke is interesting because he hopes that the relationship with Brooke will survive

while he is having flirty conversations with a woman on Twitter. And then he acknowledges he's been unfaithful. And then here's this but again. But she was aware of it. So that kind of makes it all right. Because, you know, if she knew about it, well, you know how these things are. So apparently his loyalty only extends to male friends,

not to his partner, certainly not to his family. My uncle did this, my uncle did that. He's controlling the family fortune, etc. I don't care about them. They can get stuff. So he's very selective in his loyalty. So I don't have enough to say he's a psychopath. When I first contacted you, that was sort of just my theory because when I was hearing about what happened with Tara and what we started to learn about what happened with the body and you were talking about Ryan, I was saying to myself, so where's the psychopath?

Who's the psychopath in this? And then, of course, Beau comes along and I thought I thought well he's sounding like a bit of a candidate there but the way I talk to my clients I don't generally talk about psychopaths to them but there are lots of women who are in abusive relationships so I often talk about bullies or abusers and I say to them that there are two important things to know about bullies or abusers. And I say to them that there are two important things to know about bullies and abusers.

And the first is, as far as a bully is concerned, people are like furniture. And you simply move them around to suit your purpose. And if you've got no particular purpose for someone, well, you just put them in the shed until you need them again. And then you pull them out when you need them, use them, put them back again. So for most of us, that's really hard to come to terms with

because most of us couldn't imagine treating people like that. The second thing I tell them is that in terms of communication, of course, there's a huge amount of trust between two people talking to each other. I trust that the other person pretty much is telling me the truth as they know it. And I hope that they trust I'm telling them the truth as I know it or to the best of my ability. But with a bully or an abuser or a psychopath, words are kind of like a smorgasbord laid out in front of them. And they simply choose the words that suit them for that particular purpose

to achieve the effect that they want to achieve absolutely right now with that person. And if circumstances change, literally in five minutes, they will say something completely different because they've chosen differently from the smorgasbord. And if you try and call them on it, well, firstly, their attitude is, well, that was then, this is now. And secondly, well, I never said that. And thirdly, you're always confused.

And then fourthly, they do a sort of a 180 spin of you, and they say, well, you're criticizing me about that. What about that thing you did? So they're very good at completely changing the focus. Yeah, prime example would be when Bo says that he was initially scared of Ryan and afraid that Ryan was going to pin it on him. But then at the end of the conversation he tells sally that he would whoop ryan's ass and he didn't he was not scared of ryan at all two different points in time two

different parts of the conversation both statements fitting the circumstances at the time the impression that he wanted to give so one one was big noting himself, not scared of Ryan. And the other was, well, what could I do justifying his actions? Yep, exactly. And he would see no contradiction in those whatsoever. Think of the last time you bought something to wear, something to decorate your house, something for your family or friends. What if each time you made a purchase, you got a little something back? With Rakuten, you can. You can earn cash back on just about anything you buy from over 750 stores.

If you've ever bought electronics, home decor, fashion and beauty, or booked a trip, well, you could have got cash back. But don't worry, it's not too late. It's free and easy to use, and you get cash back deposited into your PayPal account or sent to you as a check. Earn cash back at stores like Sephora, Old Navy, and Expedia. It's the smartest way to shop, plain and simple.

Start your shopping at Rakuten.ca or get the Rakuten app. That's R-A-K-U-T-E-N dot C-A. Experience basketball like never before with BetMGM, an authorized gaming partner of the NBA. Ready to shoot your shot? We've made the BetMGM experience more immersive and fun for all types of basketball fans. Being on the sidelines is one thing.

This season, experience basketball on the foul line, exciting state-of-the-art live tracking technology, and dozens of sportsbook selections await you at BetMGM Sportsbook. Tap into every game on your mobile devices. Get up off the sideline and drive to the basket yourself. No matter which team starts popping off, you'll find out why there's truly nothing like laying up a W with the king of sportsbooks. Visit BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. Must be 19 years of age or older. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone else close to you, please contact ConnexOntario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge.

to an advisor free of charge. Manipulators don't see what they do as lying for several reasons. Firstly, because everyone does it. And secondly, well, you know, you're criticizing me. You're just being picky, nitpicky. Come on. Yep. So there's always a comeback.

And no matter what you do, you can never catch a manipulator out in the lie because they are so good at quickly dissembling and coming up with another lie that the average person simply can't keep up. Yep. And then as quickly as they can, they flip it around and they put the focus back on you. So you're then backtracking and defending yourself. And you don't realize that in fact,

you're no longer talking about the issue that you raised, you're talking about the issue, the counter issue that they've raised. Yeah. I just today looked at the current photos of both of them. And you look at the two of them and somewhere on the internet, they're both side by side. And it's kind of, you look at each of them and you think, okay, so if one is the leader here, it's obviously not Ryan, is it? Right. And if you look at Ryan, you go, so this guy is intimidating this other guy. Just the nonverbal signals that Bo sends says, you're not messing with me. He's got that really hard look about him that says, I'm going to give you as good as I get. In fact, I'm going to prove something. Whereas Ryan's got a much softer look and most people don't take good sort of mug-like shots. And Ryan doesn't look too bad in his.

Right. No, there's a lot to be said for the nonverbal signals that someone sends. And, of course, that doesn't necessarily say they're guilty or innocent, but it certainly gives you a sense of how they project to people. And, you know, most people, when they're having a mugshot taken, are not looking assertive. But Bo is. Exactly. I had confessed to many people. I don't think most of them believe me. And my ex used to

use it to blackmail me. Well, this is where I see that he is, I think, subtly but consistently introducing the idea that, you know, other people are just about as responsible because, gee, you know, here am I confessing to people. I'm confessing all over the place. Now I'm doing my best here to get this out, to do something about what I've done. And no one picked up the ball. No one did anything about it. What's a guy to do?

He's cleverly reducing his responsibility by sharing it with others. So he doesn't look nearly as bad because there are so many other bad people out there as well. Of course. No, he's kind of implying what's wrong with these people. Right. Is that a common thing that people do when they try to justify what they've done? I think what he's doing is a bit more subtle because generally when we're trying to minimize our own wrongdoings, we're tending to blame the other people that we interacted with around the wrongdoing. Well, you said this to me,

so then I said that, and then you looked at me sideways, so I hit you kind of thing. So this is more subtle because he's referring to people who weren't even there, you know, didn't take part in any of this. So this is far more subtle because it's really obvious if you say, well, you know, Tara was rude to me and she swore at me and whatever. Well, you know, that's the kind of minimizing that we expect, but this is much more subtle. Yep, exactly. It's mind-boggling that no one said anything. Because people talk. I mean, I live in a smallish country town, and all you have to do is go and walk into a store

and say hello to someone, and they're telling you all their business or somebody else's business. Right. And people, as we know, love to share a secret. So I simply can't believe that no one said anything unless there was something going on that intimidated the people who knew into saying nothing. It can't just be they didn't believe it or they didn't want to know. It has to be more because you just don't want to have that secret yourself.

You want to share it with someone so they can go, oh, come on, that wouldn't have happened. Yeah, you're right. No, don't go to the police. That would be ridiculous. I can't believe if he told lots of people that nobody told unless there was a compelling reason, some kind of intimidation that made them not tell it's not something you think about at 21 okay it's easy to be loyal when you don't understand how the world works. So on Monday, it just didn't

register. Well, that's really hard to believe when he's been told the night before, hey, this is what I, or this is what he's saying, that this is what I did. And then the next morning, someone's kind of confirming it's likely that that happened it didn't register no it did register if he said i was so frightened i was so shocked or whatever but it didn't register like he didn't put two and two together that's kind of what he's implying no he's just this ordinary guy not that bright no just couldn Just couldn't put those two pieces of information together. Because his mind works kind of slow, it took until Wednesday before he kind of

realized. And then it was really late on Wednesday, so he couldn't really do anything more about it because it was really late. And he said, I didn't want to believe it. Okay, well, that sounds pretty normal. And then he's talking about burning the body. It's not something you think about at 21. You don't understand the way the world works. Well, you know, he's a guy who obviously has got some kind of intellectual disability or something. He's a bit slow. But, I mean, Beau would not want us to think of him as someone who's slow because he boasts about how he used to call out stupid people. He had no tolerance for them.

And when he was talking on Twitter, he was not in the podcast part. He was talking about how, you know, need of intellectual stimulation and he likes smart women. He's not intimidated by them, et cetera, et cetera. So he certainly doesn't think of himself as a stupid person. But that's kind of what he's implying with this all, you know, time slowed down for me. Now, it almost sounds as like, well, you know, the next time I ran into Ryan, I sort of kind of checked in with him, which seems inconceivable for someone who's a smart, action-oriented person. So more about he had no choice.

He couldn't help himself on the message board. So again, he's promoting this idea that, no, he's just this ordinary guy. And sometimes just things happen. Like he just had to get on the message board and defend himself. But not, I was so angry or I was so upset or I couldn't believe what people were saying. It's kind of like, I couldn't help myself. And he couldn't help himself with helping Ryan, apparently,

because, no, he was scared of Ryan. He didn't have any choice. And then not being able to help himself of course happens when he's boasting sleeping with lots of women he couldn't control himself but now he's trying really hard to stop he's minimizing well he's giving away responsibility at the same time he's actually boasting that he's such a great guy that he's got lots of women anyway. So then when he says, after Tara, I thought the roof would fall in anyway, sensitive impending doom, and it makes you take big risks. So that's now just excused the fraud with the government.

Why? Because this is sensitive impending doom. It made him do it. It wasn't him. Yeah, he's happy to play the victim, but his pride won't let him do it for very long. He's really got to be the hero and in control. Pride won't let him keep playing the victim for very long. Yep, that makes perfect sense, which is why he said that Ryan threatened him,

but his pride said, well, not really. I could beat Ryan's ass. So then he blames his family for trying to protect their business, attacking him, not supporting him. You know what bad people they are because they should be loyal to him. He's not loyal to them, but that's okay. But they should still be loyal to him. So again, it's that double standard. And I thought it was lovely when he said, many of my actions have been for other people. Well, firstly, what does that really mean? But he's kind of playing that sympathy card.

And then when he said, I bet I sound like a sociopath, That's a really clever sort of negotiation technique is you call out the elephant in the room. And when you're saying it to someone who's trying to, this other woman who's trying to foster a relationship with him, it's designed to get her to say, no, not at all, I really understand, which is kind of the message she was sending him. So I thought it was classic

when she was talking to him about apologizing and he said, her family don't deserve my shame. The way I interpret that, because I mean, it's kind of a difficult sentence. It's almost as though he's feeling like, well, if he apologized to them, he would be putting a burden on them of they would start to worry about him feeling ashamed. And, and, you know, that would be added burden for them.

To me, it sounds like he's feeling sorry for himself. Oh yeah. Yeah. The way he's putting it is, of course they will be concerned about me. Right. That's interesting. Yeah. And also that sense of shame, I noticed that was a phrase that Brooke used over and over and Beau also uses. So it sounds like a phrase that they use to each other or he has used to her repeatedly.

Yep, shame. Yeah, so more of the victim mentality when she said, well, you know, why are lots of people saying it's you? Ryan got sympathy for his court appearance. It's my family, their political enemies. I'm a better story. I have a past. So it's completely disavowing that perhaps it's his behavior

that makes people think it's him. It's kind of like, no, it's all these other things. I'm just a victim of circumstances. Exactly. Oh, and then he's also, not only is he being threatened by Ryan, apparently he's also afraid of being threatened by his ex-wife and that's why he played along with what she wanted for a year. Goodness knows what that actually means

other than perhaps it means they didn't get a divorce. But it would be really interesting to know whether he had a history of abuse towards women or partners because that was my theory about Brooke when I first contacted you based on not a great deal of information, I have to say, but just a thought because a lot of the women that I've dealt with who are in abusive relationships

have told me that they have lied to police, they have lied to family, they will lie to almost anyone under instructions from the abuser. Right. So it wasn't inconceivable to me that Brooke, under instructions from Bo, might have come on your podcast because Bo's not going to come on your podcast and, you know, spun the sense of shame.

And really what she was saying was, and Bo's saying this as well, you know, who amongst us when they were 21 didn't make mistakes? Hey, you know, I made a mistake like everyone else. I was only 21. I was a kid. You know, and we've all been 21. We've all made mistakes kind of like this, just a bit different. Yeah, I didn't buy that.

No, it's really because he doesn't actually come out and say it in a really blatant way. It just creates a sense of, you know, minimizing and mitigating what he's done. However, when he was talking about actually burning the body, that's what I found really interesting, that he watched that body burn. Now, okay, we've got this scared kid, doesn't understand how the world works, frightened of going to jail.

So I got the impression he came up with the idea of burning the body, which is a really dominant behavior. You know, it's not let's hide it, let's bury it. Because generally people want it out of sight. Let's get it away. But in fact, it was almost the opposite. And he says, now again, can we believe him? Don't know, but why would you know about this? That he actually watched that body burn. So then he makes a virtue

out of it that, no, that was out of respect for her, that he watched her burn. And then he says, even her silicon implants. And I just wanted to leap through my iPad and just strangle the guy when he said that, because I thought you even burned this woman's body. And even all these years later, you're still twisting the knife. I mean, what an insulting, gratuitous, horrible thing to say. It's kind of like, oh, and let me just introduce another little thing about her that maybe nobody knew. Yeah. And let me put it out there. That is just so low.

It's disgusting. Yeah. And the fact that he watched speaks to me about his psychology. Because the average person, of course, they could never burn a body in the first place, but there's no way they could watch.

So that says there's a total disconnect between normal emotions. That he is watching a human body, someone that he actually knows burning. So for him to be able to do that, either he'd done a lot of working himself up to that in terms of doing gruesome things or really testing things or things that helped him realize, hey, I felt nothing when I did that. Hmm, let me see what else I can do that way.

You know, it kind of sets the bar for, gee, nothing bothers me. If that didn't bother me, nothing bothers me. Hey, that's amazing. So let me see what else I can do. After going over the conversation in great detail, there were several statements Bo made that really caught my attention. At one point, Sally asked Bo how often he talked to Ryan over the years, after what had happened.

Bo said they lived together for a few months, and then essentially, they ceased all communication. If Bo is telling the truth here, then he and Ryan never discussed what happened beyond the first few months of 2006. Bo also told Sally that Ryan was, quote, into serial killer movies. And he even goes on to list examples saying, quote, movies like Zodiac and Seven. The problem is, the movie Zodiac didn't even hit theaters until 2007, well over a year after Bo and Ryan had stopped talking. So, is that just a bold-faced lie? Later in the conversation, Sally asked Bo about the latex glove. Bo said, quote, I don't know about the glove. Ryan said he didn't wear any.

If Ryan said he didn't wear gloves, that means that beau asked him about wearing gloves meaning beau knew to ask about it the question is when did the latex glove become public knowledge was this information public in the first couple of months after her disappearance i called maurice gawen to get some clarity on this do you know when exactly the GBI released the information about the latex glove? Yeah, I sure do. They worked out a deal that they would do it on 48 hours in 2008. So they didn't publicly announce it until 2008? That's right.

48 hours. They let them have access to some of the pictures and some of the stuff like that, and that's when it was announced. How did Bo know to ask Ryan about the glove is the question, if he didn't know about it? I don't, that's a good damn question. There must be something wrong with that glove and Ryan. So what's the deal? Do you see what I'm saying? You've got a good one there.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. It seems like a plant, don't it? It sounds like a plant, which wouldn't be hard to do. Rothwell said the glove linked back to Tara. Ryan's not that smart, see? Bo's cunning, not that's me. I don't know of any tiffin paper or a silver paper

where it was ever mentioned until after the 48 hours in 08. That was 08. All right. Hey, I'm Tom Power. I'm the host of the CBC podcast, Q with Tom Power. I get to talk to artists from all over the world, writers, musicians, actors, directors, all kinds of creative people. I feel really lucky to have these conversations. Cue with Tom Power. Available now on Spotify.

See yourself buying a home one day? Do future you a favor. Open a Questrade first home savings account and help that future come faster. The FHSA is a tax-free account where all your investment gains are yours to keep and put towards your first home. With Questrade, you can open an FHSA online. No bank appointment needed.

It's easy and only takes a few minutes. The sooner you get started, the more time your down payment has to grow. Open an account today at questrade.com. The all-new Hyundai Kona all-electric SUV isn't inspired by the future. It's obsessed with it. Because we look forward and see more.

More beauty. More technology. And more possibilities. Welcome to the future of urban SUVs. The all-new Hyundai Kona. We made it more. Wah. A few weeks ago, A man reached out to me

Claiming that he had some very important information About Bo Dukes I called him back and he told me his story Okay now what I'm about to tell you Is probably gonna It freaked me out Actually when me and her had split up and divorced I moved into my brother's house

Which was my grandmother's home out in the country. And she had started fooling around on Tinder, dating sites, and putting a profile out there. And she ended up with this guy and went on a couple of dates. And she wouldn't tell me who it was. And I didn't know the guy from Adam, you know. Anyhow, she wouldn't, me and Ashley, we used to swing when we were married. And we experimented and did a lot of things. And she ended up tied up to a pecan tree in a pecan orchard.

She was blindfolded and took pictures. She showed me a picture that he took of her. and she said it was the creepiest fucking thing she got a weird feeling when she went whenever all this was going on but ashley told me that he said some things to her that really creeped her out and that's why she wanted him to stop. He started creeping her out, and she asked me to help take care of it. This guy, Bo Dukes, he told her that he was going to kill me, and he'd get away with it. He knew how. So I called Brooke, his girlfriend.

Ashley told me that he couldn't just leave her, or Brooke had something on him, his girlfriend. Ashley told me that he couldn't just leave her or couldn't just something, Brooke had something on him or Brooke had things, she knew things about him or something. And I said, hey, Brooke, do you know that Bo's, you know, kind of still trying to, is cheating on you and trying to see my ex-wife? And she like freaked out. We had some words. And she like freaked out. We had some words. He calls me.

I'm sitting at the house. My brother works at night. My friend, which is a Marine sniper, is in his room with his girlfriend and his brother in the living room with his girlfriend. I'm in the room. And Ashley's texting me at the same time. Like, what are you doing? Why are you safe? I said, you told me to take care of it. And I wanted to leave you alone.

Well, he said, give me your address. He said, I'll be over there. He said, I'll take care of you. She could hear Brooke screaming in the background that night. He was asking for my address, and word for word, give me that motherfucker's address. I'm going to take this gun that's in my lap and go kill his ass. I'm going to take this gun that's in my lap and go kill his ass. I was laying in my bedroom at my grandmother's home that we had inherited. I looked up and the bay window right there where the curtains are there was somebody standing there.

I saw the person standing there. I slammed the door shut for no shadow so they couldn't see me. And I backed up against the door and faced the window, and it was gone. I can't prove it was him, but it was in that time frame. The same pecan orchard that they showed on the news was the same pecan orchard that he took her to and said you could scream and no one can hear you for miles around. Thanks for listening, guys. Today's episode was mixed and mastered by Resonate Recordings.

If you want to improve the quality of your podcast or start a podcast of your own, go to resonaterecordings.com and get your first episode produced for free. This episode was recorded at Industrious Atlanta, Ponce City Market. For $250 off your first month's office rent, visit IndustriousOffice.com slash vanished. There will be a Q&A episode this Thursday. So if you have any questions for us, give us a call at 770-545-6411. The two-part season finale of Up and Vanish Season 1 will come out on Monday, July 31st.

And don't forget to check out our Up and Vanish live tour with exclusive documentary footage and audio, as well as a live Q&A with me and the rest of the Up and Vanish team. Thanks, guys. And I'll see you soon.