Up and Vanished - S3E11: Alibi

Episode Date: November 17, 2021

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At PainLindsay and at UpAndVanished. So it's like, from my point of view, it's like either Paul did it or you guys did it together. Yeah. And so... Catherine, good luck. I stayed with her on the 10th. And then I stayed at Jamie B. Valenzuela's that night. That's where I was on the 10th.

If this person can vouch for T being in Seattle those days, it would at least bring a little more credence to her story. Do you mind calling that friend of yours that you were with in Seattle? Okay. Hello? Hey, Katherine. Hey, T. I have the investigator here with me, and he wants to talk to you about something. Hello? Hey, Katherine. Hey, T.

I have the investigator here with me, and he wants to talk to you about the night I seen you at Emerald Downs when Paul left me. Okay. From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is Up and Vanished. I'm your host, Payne Lindsey. Emerald Downs is a thoroughbred horse race track in Washington. This is where T claims she was visiting during the time of Ashley's disappearance. As a reminder, Ashley likely went missing on June 11th, when she was supposed to be picked up by Paul Valenzuela.

T's friend is her alibi, so I called her. Hey, how you doing, Catherine? I'm doing well. My name is Payne. I'm working with Kimberly Loring, Ashley's sister, on a podcast, and we're just trying to ask as many people questions and just sort of piece together what may have happened. Really, I guess from you, I'm just curious when exactly T was in Seattle.

Do you want me to look up the date and everything, or do you have it there? If you don't mind, yeah. Hang on. I need. Find the calendar. Okay. Um... It was either the 10th or the 17th of June. I'd have to go back to look

and see when that race was. Emerald Down races in 2017 started on the 9th. Okay, so it would have been the 10th of June. The last day of Emerald Down races. And T stayed with you or what? Yeah, I had my relay team there, Umatilla Express, and it was Saturday night.

We had already raced. And we were sitting, the whole team was sitting there. It wasn't just me. There was a whole bunch of people there, and we were barbecuing. I have a living quarters horse trailer, which is, you know,

a Barbie with a horse trailer attached to it and saw one complete unit but she came and she sat there and ate with us, visited with us, spent the night there okay and when did she leave? that morning That morning. Sunday. I can't remember if she stayed and watched this race or not, but I know she was there Sunday morning. Because I helped her feed the horses.

She was looking for a ride because her husband had... It was really strange. She told me she was there with her husband. Nick got in a fight out there on the freeway, and he kicked her out of the car. And she said she couldn't believe how basically lucky she was that she was that close to that racetrack and there was all of the people there. I mean there was people from all over tribes all over the United States racing there. But how fortunate she was to be able to be that close and be even close to people at home too. Right and so do you know where Right. And so do you know where T went after that? Not really.

Okay. And I talked to her a few days. I think I was messaging with her probably. I think she spent a couple more days in Seattle. We didn't leave. We left Monday morning. Okay. You said you left Monday morning. Okay. You said you left Monday morning? Yes. That's all I needed to know. I appreciate that. Okay.

Thank you so much. Yep. Bye, Catherine. Bye, Gene. Bye. So that Sunday morning after you left, where did you go? I went out front. I told her that Jamie was going to come get me, I guess,

and that I'm going to go sit out front. And so I sat out there for maybe about an hour and a half. Okay. And it was too long to walk all the way back through to the gates because there's all these gates that go down on Emerald Downs racetrack and I think you need money to get back in so I was out stuck out there until his sister came and I kept calling him and asking him where she was but I guess she's a pharmacist so I had to wait until her lunch or something when she came and got me bring me to her house went downstairs and stayed there that

whole time you'd have to call them to ask them so who picked you up Jamie okay and that's Paul's sister in law yeah okay and then so you went back to her house yep and how long did you stay there for I'm thinking since tell the 15th 15th yeah why do you remember the 15th because that's when he Paul got paid his $6,000 he gets a month. And that's the only reason why he came back is because he needed dope. And he needed to pick up his kid. And let's not forget me. So...

Did you have any communication with Paul while he was in the car? A little bit, yeah. What did y'all talk about? Nothing. Like, no, love, nothing. Just, when are you going to come get me? And I'll be there soon and just nothing else. So you think it was the 15th that he came and got you?

Yeah. No, the 14th because he didn't have any money when he got there. And I remember him making fun of me because I was eating chicken with ranch in the morning. And he was just being a dick. a hurtful asshole so I don't know if I was pregnant then but I was hungry and I was sober so. T left her friend's house on Sunday morning June 11th the same day that Ashley went missing and she claims she went to stay with paul valenzuela's sister jamie i've tried reaching jamie several times but no luck so i can't confirm this according to t paul left for browning on saturday june 10th and he came back to seattle on june 14th

very strange time gap there for paul, considering Ashley went missing during that exact window. Whenever Paul left, there was plenty of time for him to get back to Browning. Exactly. Well, that's what I was saying. So, I mean, he made it all the time, like, he would go there for a run and make sure he was right back when we first started dating.

I never, I started catching on to his time. So then all of a sudden it started getting longer and longer. One thing I've had a really hard time understanding is why exactly Paul left T in Seattle that day. T's memory of this seems vivid and she brings it up a lot. But it just doesn't really make sense to me. It didn't make sense because that was out of character for Paul. I bring my boys out all the time while he was gone and he knew it and had bonfires. And we just trip out. We turn off all electricity and just wait and creep out over the beds, you know.

He never got mad. He would show up. What do you see and how does it unfold? I see I'm pulled up by AutoZone, and about two car spaces down, there is a Camaro, and it's blue, almost like my green one. And there's a Cadillac gentleman, and he's fixing his car with another gentleman. And I go, oh, hey, I'm feeling pretty good, buzzed up. I get to drink even though I'm not doing drugs. So I go, hey, what year is your, you know, I'm feeling pretty good, buzzed up. I get to drink even though I'm not doing drugs. So I go, hey, what year is your, you know, 96?

Or he's, I said, what year is your Camaro? And he said 96, but his had the toppers that come off. Mine didn't. And I go, mine's a 96 too. I was like, that's badass. And Paul was looking, I remember looking over and through the window, I could see Paul. His window was down and his son was in the back.

His son must have been on the phone. And I remember Paul looking down like this at his receipt and the part he had. And then he was watching me like this. And then he was like, are you? And he starts yelling in front of these men. And I'm like, whoa, what the fuck? What's he say? You're fucking talking to these other guys.

How are the guys reacting to this? They were laughing at him because it looks stupid. Like, he must have been really high. You know, he was allowed to get high, but I wasn't, you know, trying to conserve for a baby, I guess. So I'm looking at him like, what the fuck? You know, and I'm like, oh, fuck, whatever. And I didn't think he was serious. Like, serious here is like it's going to blow over, but it never did.

Oh, but it blew over after I got home. That never was brought up ever again. You know how a guy will bring up something like, you know, did you really like those guys? Or do you know those guys? You know, you'll get blamed over something that you did. Constantly, it'll be in that person's mind, but that wasn't, I never ever heard of it.

I'm the only one who talks about it. Never. I mean, he probably wouldn't even remember. I don't know. But when I talk about it, like to you, I've never, because he never talks about it. He never talks about when I, I was the one, exactly. I am the one who. Are you sure it wasn't something else?

No, it was. It had to have been something else. That't something else no it was it had to have been something else that's what I'm saying it had to have been there's that was out of character that was not Paul he did that for a purpose maybe this is the purpose why you think maybe it was something about getting back home and that was Ashley maybe you know he's been texting all day so maybe it's time to go home to her, you know? Let me get rid of this bitch for the- You didn't discover something about her, him and Ashley right there? I remember seeing earrings, but he told me, and perfume, but he always told me that they

were his sisters. Was that their auto zone? No, they were always, no, this was a couple weeks after that, I found him in the car and his daughters weren't around, his oldest. And Lexi don't wear stuff like that. She's this little girl. So I said, whose are these? And he goes, oh, they're Rose's. When I was waiting for him to say, oh, they're Ashley's.

It's after, before he hit the moose, after Ashley went missing. This doesn't really make sense to me why he would go off the handle like that in that moment. You would have to ask him. Was there something else that could have prompted it? I'm coming off a dope maybe? I'm a very grumpy bitch, but no. Well yeah, but still, like... I didn't ask him...

You were at a distance from him whenever he saw you talking to the guy, so it's not like you were acting all crazy or anything. No I wasn't, I was just acting like a normal person would ask... Which is why I'm confused as to why he acted the way he did. You're going to have to ask him. That's all I can tell you. Because when I, like, you know, I didn't ever bother to bring it up. Because, hey, Mr. Nice Guy's coming to get me. I want to go home. Will he remember this?

Yeah, he better. Well, no, I don't know. Maybe. Why would he not? Well, then what else would he tell you why he threw me off? I have no idea. I wanna know the reaction. I wanna know if I knew, and he's saying I knew, how was my response in the beginning? How did I act?

How did I look? What did I say? I wanna know that. I wanna know, cause I've never heard him say how I acted, what I say, what did I do? What did I do to him? You know, I wanna know that. Who else did I do to him you know I want to know that who else did I tell do you have any witnesses that seen me freak out like

this over you and her I've heard a lot of stuff I've heard that I killed her and I said you have to kill her too I've heard a lot of things I heard that I killed her and I made him help me kill her. Like I said, you have to shoot her too. And then I heard that I had a group of friends around down by Tamed, John Jarvis, Vernon, Rose Minnicki, I guess was one of them. And Cole, I think, I don't know who else, but I guess we're all standing there.

Cynthia Butterfly, Dragonfly, and we're all standing there. And I said, I killed her. You guys all have to stab her once that's what I told everybody I guess

that's a rumor going around and then one rumor is I caught them in bed together and I shot her and I had

made Paul help me bury her and the other rumor is I choked her and then I don't know

what others are out there but I know they're pretty gruesome yeah those are the main ones I know about but when you hear stuff like that about yourself it's really hard to defend yourself because of the fact that you're trying to defend yourself where somebody already believes it. So now my new question is, so what do you think then? That's my new question. I don't sit there and try to defend myself anymore.

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That's sunrisechallenge.ca. T and Paul were living in a trailer together right outside of Browning. The same trailer that Kimberly said T set on fire. When Paul came back to Seattle to pick T up on June 14th, this trailer is where they went back to. But when I asked T about this, she had a very bizarre story. So when you got there, walking through, what happened?

I jumped out. He started bringing in his daughter and stuff. And I was standing there. I went to the backyard and felt empty. It wasn't home anymore. That was my first home I ever really had of my own since I left here when I was a little kid. Why do you think you felt that way? Now I think because it had something to do with Ashley. I really do. I think there's, she's do with Ashley I really do I think there's she's somewhere maybe she might be out there I don't know but it was smelt like some really strong and it was close but it was like a dead smell and then I think Paul was saying it might have been the dog that died our dogs

died or something. Did you bring it up? Yeah, I said, what's that smell? And he said, I don't know. I think it's like the dogs. Our dogs are missing. They might be dead back there. But I never went back there.

Never did go back there at all. There was something dead behind the house. I could smell it. And so walk me through what you experienced. When I got out of the car or his Suburban, I stood on this side of the trailer and looked in my backyard for the longest time and it was empty. That wasn't my house anymore. It wasn't. It was empty and I started crying because thinking how somebody could just leave you on the side of the road like that and they say everything's okay right now and i'll buy you some horses to make you okay but it didn't feel like home anymore definitely something was telling me there's something wrong

where's that trailer now it It's still out there, I think. Pretty sure. Last time I seen it, it was out there. I lit it on fire. When? I think the second day of Indian Days on 2017. Just the kitchen. Why?

Because it was my trailer. Apparently, Paul was trying to kick T out of the trailer they were living in. So T decided to burn it. How did you light it? I went to cupping, and I bought myself some beer. And then I was filling up the gas, feeling sorry for myself. And then I looked at a water bottle. I was like, ooh.

So I dunked it on there on the front. And then I lit it on fire. And then I thought it would light if I threw a cigarette, you know, acting cool, but it didn't. It went up in flames when I lit it and it almost cut my eyebrows. And so I was standing there while it was going up in smoke and then I was screaming, fuck you bitches, come on, come down here, and they wouldn't. I just did the kitchen. I knew it wasn't going to be livable after that, but I was screaming, fuck you, bitches. Come on, come down here. And they wouldn't. I just did the kitchen. I knew it wasn't going to be livable after that, but I was pissed.

Everybody says I burnt it because Ashley's body isn't there. So they say I burnt it down, though. I was like, well, why didn't they find her yet then? Remember, T claims that Paul was having some sort of relationship with Ashley. So I asked her about it. What was the moment that you found out that Paul was doing anything with Ashley at all? When Kenny Berdue came to my old, our new trailer that I was staying in, well, I wasn't staying in it, and he asked me to go, you know,

if I could sit down and talk with him. Kenny Berdue is the Blackfeet police officer that T was having a sexual relationship with. He told me, you know when you told me that your husband had a whole different life? And I said, yeah. He said, well, it pretty much does. He's been dating Ashley for three months. He's been having an affair. And right then and there,

it was like a whole thing just went through my head, just like everything that happened to me. Fuck. And I didn't care about her at all at that point I didn't give a shit I figured you know she's gonna come home I don't know her you know nobody like goes missing you know forever I didn't think that then but and I called him and was fucking accusing him saying where the fuck is she at? You know, what the fuck's going on? You fucking, you know, been lying to me this whole fucking time? You know, he wouldn't answer me.

He would not answer me one bit. Do you think she's alive or dead? I don't know. I think she's dead. So what do you think? I mean, what do you think happened? I mean, it's, if Sam is excluded from this, which it looks like he is, for me, the next step, the logical step, is to talk to Paul. Hey, how's it going?

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And trust me, I've been looking for months, and the guy is just a ghost. But I haven't given up yet. Just a few weeks ago, I got a random message on Facebook. A man from Browning who asked me to urgently call him. All I know is emotionally that person was very shaken up when he told me this stuff. I don't know. They were like very scared. I don't remember the exact dates. I just remember getting a phone call.

They told me that they had this girl at their house. They was going to beat her up and kill her or something. That was all I knew. She was very shaken up, asked me if I could come and pick her up. To go pick her up. And then I get there. She's like terrified, crying, shaking, scared. I try to calm her down. She was freaking out. She said they actually killed that girl. The Astley Loring.

They? Who the hell is they? He didn't know either. All he knew was where they lived. Because he picked his friend up from that house. I didn't know either. All he knew was where they lived, because he picked his friend up from that house. I didn't know what to believe, but just her emotional state led me to believe that she was not lying. She was all freaking out, hysterical, claiming that she knows that they killed that girl,

and they said they put her down into the crawlspace. Logically, I'd say there's something there, but that's all I know. Well, you know where I'm going, to that house. And I'm bringing my friend Tracy Sargent and her cadaver dog. So there's a good chance they do not let me search this house.

But hey, we're gonna try. Who are you looking for? Hey, Payne. Are you the owner of the house? Yeah. I'm working with Kimberly Loring, Ashley Loring's sister. Ashley went missing a few years ago. Yeah, she's my cousin. Is she your cousin?

Yeah. We're here today because we have a search dog, and we're just eliminating different spots that have come up in our investigation. A rumor surfaced, probably not much to it, that she could have been here. Go ahead and search if you have to. Do you guys have a crawl space here? Uh, yeah. I have to get my life to unlock it.

Coming next week in the final episode this season. I just need you to be careful when you go out there. Because the first thing he's going to do, he might pull a gun on you. Why's that? Because it's his property, he'll say, and you're not allowed to be here. That's just how he is. And if he's selling drugs, he's going to. Or he's gonna release his dogs on you. But he's got another pit bull and I

think he's a dumb dog, but I don't know. So how would you suggest I approach him? Shit, I don't know. I would drive up there exactly what you're telling me and just go there. Do you live here? Cool. My name is Payne. I'm a journalist from Atlanta. Nice to meet you, man.

I was trying to interview this guy who lives up on the hill here. Do you know much about that guy? Never seen him? No, I just moved here. Did you? I just heard that he was kind of just one of those guys around here.

What does that mean? Watch out for, I guess. This bend will be an eyesight of this guy. Is Paul here? Uh, yeah, why? I'm a journalist. Up and Vanish is a production of Tenderfoot TV. Created, hosted, and edited by Payne Lindsey. Executive producers are Payne Lindsey and Donald Albright.

Original score by Makeup and Vanity Set. Our theme song is Ophelia by Ezra Rose. Sound design, mixing, and mastering by Cooper Skinner. Additional production by Cooper Skinner, Eric Quintana, and myself, Mike Rooney. Our cover art is by Trevor Eiler. Special thanks to Grace Royer and Oren Rosenbaum at UTA. Ryan Nord, Jesse Nord, and Matthew Papa at the Nord Group, Station 16, Beck Media and Marketing,

as well as Chris Cochran and the team at Cadence 13. Visit us on social media at Up and Vantage, or you can visit us at upandvantage.com, where you can join in on our discussion board. If you're enjoying Up and Vantage, tell a friend, family member, or coworker about it. And don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening. you