Up and Vanished - S3E4: V-Dog

Episode Date: September 22, 2021

Payne sits down with Sam McDonald To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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questions or concerns about your gambling or someone else close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor, free of charge. I hope he's a nice guy. I see him. Let's do it. Hey man, how you doing?

I'm paying. Who? Paying. Paying. Damn right. Yeah. I saw you guys get out of your truck. Fucking got cameras. I was watching you guys.

And I thought, what the fuck are they doing? So I went and looked at my cameras. And then I grabbed this. If I'd have seen a gun in your hand, I'd have raised it. If I'd have seen a gun come out, I'd have shot you. From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is Up and Vanished. I'm your host, Payne Lindsey. Yeah. Do you mind if we just sit down and chat for a few minutes? Is that cool? Kimberly said you would be down to talk.

I usually am for her, but we'll sit over here. Sure, yeah. This is when it starts to get really tough. Do I tell you as the listener how I feel about this person's guilt or innocence? How much do I read into his mannerisms his overall behavior i'm not anticipating anyone in this case dropping a full confession in one of our interviews though that would be really nice i gotta focus on being objective right now but we're all human aren't we things from this point forward in the podcast become something i've found exceptionally difficult to navigate.

And with complete transparency, I don't know who killed Ashley. At least not yet. Everyone wants to know what happens. Everyone's freaking out, you know? In this moment, right here, right now, I'm prepared to give Sam McDonald the stage. What's his side of the story? The fact that I'm even here and he's still talking to me seems like a pretty good sign.

A great sign, actually. And he's agreed to go on record with me. I should just keep playing my cool. He's starting to seem pretty benign. But his pistol is still sitting there on the table. I'm just being over paranoid

about the gun, right? But I don't have a gun with me. It's Montana. It's totally normal. Keep your eye contact. Relax. Let's just talk. We got to know each other for a little bit. Despite our scary first encounter there,

he didn't seem threatening. He seemed sincere even. But is he hiding something I don't know? It's pretty scary shit going on right now. It's scary right now. I don't know who to believe, you know. I've had threats through Facebook from fake people that don't want to show who they are. Just vigilante shit. That ain't gonna go, you know, without a fight. They might get me, but I'm gonna get two.

You know, they better be sneaky Indians, you know? Because I'm a sneaky Indian. It's just fucked up, man. They believe these people. They believe them. The whole reservation believes these rumors, you know? What were they saying? They were just like,

oh, you had four guys up there, raped her and murdered her? I'm like, fuck you guys. Holy shit. Man, you guys are fucked up. You believe rumors and shit too? I'm a religious man, you know? I don't live every day that I smoke weed. That's God-given shit.

That's God-given. But I was on a five-year bender. I went through a divorce. And next thing I started doing math, you know. Enough was enough, you know. I didn't get hooked up with no big fucking dealers or anything, you know. I wasn't no big dope dealer, fuck. Like they try to make me sound to be.

When I was younger, you know, and that's where everybody thinks, oh, Sam's this. When I was younger, I rode bulls. I fought men, you know. I don't fucking, I still fight. I'm 60 years old. Ain't nobody fight even, no, anymore. You know, I had my day.

Like any other man when I was young, any other Blackfeet, I abused my first two wives, you know? I was mean to them. I was a mean man when I was younger. You know, I admit to that shit. I haven't, my last- Why were you, do you think? And how'd you change?

Just the way you get raised. My- What do you mean? My stepdad beat my mom. You know, it's a fucking thing. It's a curse, you know, and you gotta stop it somewhere. And my last wife, I never laid a hand on her ever, you know? I was with her for 12 years.

Yeah, it's been a long haul. Over four years now, I think. June 11th. I cried my heart out. According to Sam, the last time he saw Ashley was on the morning of June 11th, 2017. This is nearly six days after the party at Vernon's house. How did he meet Ashley? Where did I meet Ashley?

I met her on a high, low basis once. And then I was at this guy's, Big Al's house. He's dead too. But I was there. That's how she followed me out when I left because she knew me somehow. And she said, Sam, where are you going? What are you doing? She said, I don't want to be here. I'm like, you don't have to be here. I didn't know her. I said, get in. I was with her for six days. We had fun, you know, when we got along. We were fucking high for a few days, you know. So he picks up Ashley from Big Al's house. They spend six days together at his cabin, getting high, according to him.

And on the sixth day, he claims he was ready to take her home. I wanted her to go kind of regroup, getting high, according to him. And on the sixth day, he claims he was ready to take her home. I wanted her to go, kind of regroup, go home, work on her truck and stuff, you know, meet her family. She didn't want to go home, she said. Why not? I don't know. She's like, Sam, I don't want to go home.

She disappeared on me a couple times. What do you mean, huh? Just disappear and then come back later. Saturday, we got so, I got so drunk. I passed out here. She headed out. She was gone like for seven hours maybe. It was five in the afternoon.

seven hours maybe. It was five in the afternoon. And at one in the morning, here she'd come right through here and walk in. And she was just like all fucked up. She wasn't on, it wasn't meth. And she'd come back and she was pointing in here and like that and stuff. And she'd sit in my cars and...

What was she on? I don't know what it was. She'd come back at one that morning and she was all fucked up and I'm like, fuck, I better get her home, you know? I didn't want to be responsible for her being that fucked up, you know? Mm-hmm.

And about nine that morning, she started kind of coming down and kind of being reasonable, you know? I said, well, let's go home. I'll bring you home. You can get clothes. I'll work on your pickup. I was just trying to get her home, you know? I said, I'll work on your truck.

I was with her this Sunday. I was bringing her home and she told me, she was texting all the way up the hill, up Divide. Headed to Badger Creek was our designation. I traveled Divide all the time. Every day I pray for her when I go over there. And it was a nice day like this. It was 10 in the morning, 9.30, 10, you know?

And she said, pull over up here. My ride V-Dog's almost here. And that's the only time I heard V-Dog. And if I had to do that day over, I'd have kept going, you know, because I was bringing her to the badger creek. And she told me to pull over up on top there because she had a ride coming. V-Dog. I leaned my chair back. Last thing we talked about, she said, Sam, where's that cabin up there? And I showed her a cabin on Divide. Way at the top of the smoke cabin. And she's like, oh yeah. She's like, how do you get to it? I said, I think there's a trail that goes down the back. And I laid in my

chair back like that and boom. You know, I was awake. I went to sleep. And I lay in my chair back like that, and boom. You know, I was awake. I went to sleep. And I wish I never... I wish... And nobody woke me up. I woke up myself. So when you woke up in your car, what were you thinking? What was the first thought that came to your head? I thought it was like two minutes when I woke up up there. I thought it was like two minutes,

but I figured it had to have been 40 minutes. Sleeping. In that 40 minutes that you were asleep, where do you think she went? She got her ride with Vito, because he was almost there. She said, pull over on top. She's like, Sam, I don't want to go home yet.

She's like, and then I just kept driving, and then we got almost top. She said, Sam, pull over up here. My ride V-Dog's almost here. I was so tired, and so I pulled over. I didn't know who V-Dog was. Thought maybe it was a cousin or something. Anyway, and I fell asleep. I woke up.

I told her to tell me before she left, and she didn't. She just left. And I woke up, and I'm like, fuck, I hope she didn't fucking walk up there. Yeah. That was my first thought. I led a search with all. There was like five different police departments, like the Homeland Security, FBI, the BIA, the Blackfeet. There was sheriffs, two sheriffs hiked up with us.

There was maybe even 12. And I said, this is my fear, that she walked up there and something got her, you know? Sure, yeah. And so we walked all the way to the bottom of the mountain, spread out. You know, I said, this is where I parked, and this is where I woke up. And we'll figure, what's the most obvious trail? Or most unobvious, you know? Sure, yeah.

She was kind of, she was like, oh, this is so beautiful, you know? So she was curious about it. Yeah, she loved it. It would have made sense for her to wander up there. Yeah, that was my fear when I woke up. I don't mind getting it out, you know? I want to know too, where the fuck she's at.

Obviously your name is in the mix because you're one of the last people to see too, when the fuck she's out. Obviously your name is in the mix because you're one of the last people to see her, right? It's called confusion. They created, the perpetrators created this confusion. It's a tactic. Sam seems to be a little paranoid about the whole thing. But I guess if he's telling the truth,

he's definitely got the right to be. I quit investigating because they threatened me But I guess if he's as you guys, you know? Investigative-wise, you know, it's fucking dumb. Somebody's gonna try to plant shit here. And it ain't gonna happen long as I'm... Are you fearful of that? Yeah. Really? Yeah, I am.

That's why I fucking guard my property. They ain't gonna try to fucking... I got cameras towards the lake, everything. You know, they ain't gonna plant nothing on me. You know, that's scary shit. I'm scared as fuck, you know? I'm scared of the cops, I'm scared of the people. You know, you guys can say that too, you know? It's fucked up.

Scared to the point of greeting strangers like this. What am I doing? I'm staying home, making a living. You know, I sobered up. I ain't gonna let these guys get over me. If I was still fucked up, they probably would have nailed me. They probably would have set me up somehow. Right at that point, I was like, fuck that. I got to sober up, you know? And it's been a hard road. Went through a divorce, you know, then got hooked on meth. Fuck that shit. That's a gateway to fucking another dimension.

What's it like? You know, you could see what it's like if you don't eat for a week. Don't eat for a week, see what you see. You don't need drugs. When you fast, they go up to you don't eat, you don't sleep, you don't do nothing, and you see this fucking vision. you don't eat you don't sleep you don't do nothing and you see this fucking vision You don't need peyote for that either you stay awake for four or five days You're gonna see shit. You're gonna see that shit. It ain't the drug I ain't kidding you if you don't believe me try. I believe there's another dimension here, you know Don't see it unless you stay awake for a long time.

And you will see it. I believe you. If you don't believe me, do that. You will see it. And your question will be answered. Ironic he's talking so much about staying awake when he fell asleep. I wanted to keep the conversation friendly before I asked anything too hard-hitting. So I let him ramble on about being high on meth. You see things, people, demons, angels, angels, bad and good.

I used to have a collection of pictures, which I burned because it's scary. Here's an example. My niece took a picture of me. We was having some beers on St. Patrick's Day. She took a picture of me. I was riding with her. And I had a black vest on, and right here on the arm was a big fucking black devil with big fucking teeth. It was monster more of a devil with big fucking teeth. It was a monster more of a devil because it was black.

And then on this shoulder was a little tiny clown sitting, kind of looking out the window. This is on a fucking film. You can film that shit. Why didn't you keep it? It's because back then it was scary shit. I didn't know what it was. And here's this little fucking clown sitting there looking out the fucking window. It was fucked up.

I fucking burned that shit, man. I get scared back then. I ain't going to hang on to it. It's like evil or something, you know? But then I sober up and I think back about all this shit. That's what I think. think back about all this shit. That's what I think. I hope I ain't leading you to disbelieve in my fucking ass,

because everything I'm telling you is true. She came to me in my dream, Ashley, and told me to turn it over. That's the only way I can help. When I wanted to help so much, but I couldn't, you know. And she came to me in a dream and just said the only way I could help was turn it over to Jesus, through Jesus. And that was two and a half years ago.

I just, I just remember waking up. That was what I had to do. It was in my heart. I didn't even go to work. I prayed and cried all day. And it was like, the truth will come through Jesus. I believe it. It's the only... It's the only positive thing I have, you know? Turn everything over to Jesus. And I try not to worry about it, you know.

But I pray every day for her. Every day. So did you have anything to do with her disappearance? No. I fell asleep. That's the only wrong thing I did. And I'll probably never forgive myself for it. Do you feel kind of bad about that? Yeah, what do you think?

You know? Yeah, I feel bad. I don't know what happened to her. You know? I feel bad for Kimberly and her grandma. So you're certain the last time you saw her was the 11th? I'm certain, yeah. So anyone who saw her after that is...

I've never seen her after that. Since I fell asleep, I have never seen her after that. I haven't. I have never seen her after that. I can't, I don't. I have never seen her after that. I can't, I don't know. I don't know what happened to her after I fell asleep. I can't say. I wish I could say, oh, yeah, I've seen her get in with these people.

But I fell asleep. Why would I? I can't lie. Not even for that, you know. That would be a God-given thing if I would have seen who she got in with, you know. I pray to Jesus for her family to have comfort, you know, so I can have comfort too. I need it too. Nobody knows my pain, you know. That girl put a place in my heart.

There's just so many people believe shit. I told you guys the truth. That's it. I got nothing to do with her. I have nothing to do with none of that. Fuck, man. All I did was party. And I made a call of concern, you know, on her behalf,

because it was fucked up seeing the poster, you know? Think of the last time you bought something to wear, something to decorate your house, something for your family or friends. What if each time you made a purchase, you got a little something back? With Rakuten, you can. You can earn cash back on just about anything you buy from over 750 stores. If you've ever bought electronics, home decor,

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Ready or not. Just because you stop believing in them doesn't mean they're gone. Here he comes. And they're angry you left. Imaginary. Now playing only in theaters. Imaginary, now playing only in theaters. Apparently, in the coming days after Ashley vanished in his presence, missing posters for Ashley were starting to circulate,

so he called Blackfeet Law Enforcement to tell them what he knew. I was with her, you know, six days. Six days I was with Ashley. You know, we talked a lot, you know. About what? Life. And I think she's up there happy. She's happy, I think.

I hope. She's a... I don't know. Yeah. It's just fucking fucked up telling you guys this shit, you know? Got to know, though. You know, I ain't scared to... I'm scared to let it out, but fuck it, you know? I'm alone in this, I think.

The more I know, the better. For everyone's sake, to be honest. I hope you guys believe me, because I got heart and soul into what I just told. There's nothing I can do. I'm waiting. Truth will come through Jesus, you know? I don't know. I don't know what else to do. There ain't nothing I can do. In this moment, there are tears running down Sam's face.

He's legitimately emotional about this. But the question is, where is that emotion coming from? I wish I knew. I wish I could fucking know what happened. But what about V-Dog? One, what kind of name is that? Two, is he a real person? According to Sam, he is. We figured V-Dog was that Paul.

Do you know Paul or no? No, I have never seen him or anything. But I know of him and what he does. You know, I hear things. Sam says that V-Dog is likely a man named Paul Valenzuela. He knows of him, but they're not close. One night, I come home at 2.30 in the morning. It was right after the poster.

Here's Paul's pickup at the end of this road down here, sitting there. I'm like, what the fuck, man? I come home, I was drinking in town at the casino. And by the time I whipped around, I had that red Monte Carlo right there. By the time I whipped around, they were fucking going. And I called the BIA that exact moment.

I had a number. So if V-Dog is Paul, then he's definitely someone I need to talk to. If Ashley was picked up by Paul that morning, then this literally changes everything. I'm Samantha Cole, host of the new season of Understood, The Pornhub Empire. Over the course of four episodes, I'll tell you how a horny YouTube knockoff in Canada came to dominate the porn world, only to shatter their cheeky reputation in a massive scandal. The Pornhub Empire is a new season of Understood from the CBC. The Pornhub Empire. Understood. Available Understood from the CBC. The Pornhub Empire.

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Sunday, March 24th at 8 Eastern on CBC and CBC Gem. After my meeting with Sam, we exchanged numbers and he agreed to keep talking to me throughout my investigation. It was time to decompress and go back to the drawing board. There's a lot of names now, and way too many suspicious characters. I caught up with Vernon again, the guy who threw the party Ashley went to on June 5th, before she ended up at Sam's.

But what he had to tell me was pretty alarming. My cousin, my cousin, come on, miss him. He's missing right now. Leo Wagner. A search is underway on the Blackfeet Reservation for 26-year-old Leo Wagner. According to his family, Leo was last seen on Tuesday, April 27th, in the Bab St. Mary area.

Since I've been investigating Ashley's disappearance, another person has vanished from the Blackfeet Reservation. Vernon's cousin, Leo Wagner. Me and Leo, we were first cousins, and, you know, I took care of Leo and stuff, and he was here every and, you know, I took care of Leo and stuff. He was here every day, you know. He was almost like a person like Ashley, you know.

You never see them, like, mad or nothing. They always had a smile on their face. You know, they were always happy, you know, just always checking in on everybody and stuff like that. And Leo and Ashley, they were both, they're almost like the same because they never had a bad day. You know, they always had smiles on their face. Leo, you know, he's my first cousin and everything. And, you know, he was here every day. Hard worker, you know, just a well-rounded guy.

And, you know, he had kids and a wife and all of a sudden he'd just come up missing. Heartbreaking. He was last seen on the banks of the lake. They've actually had to close off parts of St. Mary's to look for him. They do hope that this search brings closure, at least for Leo's family. Just like Ashley's case, rumors immediately began surfacing. And none of it sounded good. There's stories. Supposedly he got murdered.

I got a recording, though. There's a couple people talking about it. Supposedly what happened. There's a couple people talking about it. Supposedly what happened. It's a video though, but you know, they're secretly recording it. It talks about how my cousin fought these two guys for like 25 minutes or something. Supposedly he beat them both up, you know, because they were trying to pile him. And then, you know, I guess he was trying to catch his breath or something. And this other guy named Robert, I guess, supposedly shot him.

I got it on my phone. I could send it on Facebook. I don't know if it's true or not, you know, but I don't know. You just have to listen to it for yourself. Vernon sent me a cell phone recording of two unknown people talking about what sounds like Leo's murder. It's actually pretty damning. I know I could find a body. I told Uncle Steve, fuck, I could grab the juggy horse back and bring it right to that body. He told me where he took the body. I bet you it was Rob.

I bet you it was Rob. I put him on a fucking horse and tell him to leave the fucking way. I bet you Rob would bring me right to the body. Yeah. And he wouldn't even know. He's so fucking now fucked up. And he wouldn't even know. He'd be like, oh, I'm very nice.

Play dumb. He'd be like, oh, I'm sorry. Here. You know, know he just played dumb because he's so stupid you know what i mean i just gotta get morse back and bring him up kind of close there and he wouldn't even know that he told me where it's at he just fucking he played right up there oh he's right oh fucking he's late late away late away you know i just tell him or something fuck i bet you he'd ride us right up on that fucker and i know that who Who he told about it. That's how dumb he is. He told you right where he did with it. They pulled him in a slide for like two and a half miles. Left his slide, everything made fucking hard as they could back to the truck or whatever and jet into

the middle of the night. Rob's just like dumb. You put him on a horse and kind of took him in the man. Fuck, that's confusing. But, Rob's just, like, dumb. He put him on a horse and kind of took him in that country. I bet you he ain't ride right up on her, like, fuck, what we find him, fuck, you know? You know, like, he's stupid, you know what I mean? Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. And you think that, like, fucking, he didn't tell him what he did.

I shouldn't have let him see. But he framed himself or whatever, and I don't want to do that, dude. I don't know, but, fuck, if you kill somebody, you're, like, fuck you now. You gotta own up to your shit, man. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. But, like, yeah, he told me he killed him. He shot him right in the fucking head.

Like, he was just gasping for air. He already beat up Doug and Jeff. Not for 25 minutes or whatever. He was just catching air just to leave me alone. You know what I'm saying? Leave me alone or whatever. And Rob didn't give him a chance. Shot him in the fucking head.

So he pulled a gun on him first, and Rob just shot him right over him. He pulled a gun on me first or whatever reason. We fucking told the whole story and we didn't ask a question about it. And we didn't even know what was going on yet. He fucking told himself before and we're like, shut up, dude. What the fuck are you talking about? This is before we even knew Leo was gone. There's a serious problem in Browning, Montana and all of Indian Country. Too many missing people, and no one giving a shit about it.

As of today, both Ashley Loring and Leo Wagner are still missing. If you hear anything new on Leo's case, let me know, too, because I'm kind of, like, looking into all of them at the same time now. They're kind of like looking into all of them at the same time now. They're kind of thinking that Ashley and Leo, they're both kind of intertwined somehow

from the investigation to focus on MMIW and all the complexities associated with this widespread issue. To understand what happened to Ashley or Leo, it's imperative to understand why this problem continues to happen. Thanks, guys, and see you next week. Up and Finish is a production of Tenderfoot TV. Created, hosted, and edited by Payne Lindsey. Executive producers are Payne Lindsey and Donald Albright. Original score by Makeup and Vanity Set.

Our theme song is Ophelia by Ezra Rose. Sound design, mixing, and mastering by Cooper Skinner. Additional production by Cooper Skinner, Eric Quintana, and myself, Mike Rooney. Our cover art is by Trevor Eiler. Special thanks to Grace Royer and Oren Rosenbaum at UTA. Ryan Nord, Jesse Nord, and Matthew Papa at The Nord Group. Station 16, Beck Media and Marketing, as well as Chris Cochran and the team at Cadence 13. Visit us on social media at Up and Vantage, or you can visit us at upandvantage.com,

where you can join in on our discussion board. If you're enjoying Up and Vantage, tell a friend, family member, or coworker about it. And don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening.