Up and Vanished - S4E7: Let's Talk About This

Episode Date: March 22, 2024

Payne sits down with the producers of up and vanished for a round-table discusion about the lead up, planning, and eventual encounter with Oregon Jon in small bar in Ketchikan from episode 6. Follow the show on Instagram: @upandvanished Subscribe to Tenderfoot+ for ad-free listening, exclusive bonuses and early access. {apple.co/upandvanished} To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi there, my name is Alameen Abdelmahmoud. I am the host of the CBC podcast, Commotion. You need to drop by, okay, because that's where we talk about all things pop culture. We talk about what people are watching, what people are listening to, like how the Smiths got on a Trump rally playlist, or how Elmo became the internet's therapist, or how DadTV got so darn popular. Commotion with Alameen Abou Mahmoud, available now on Spotify. This is Neil Strauss,

host of the Tenderfoot TV True Crime podcast, To Live and Die in LA. I'm here to tell you about the new podcast I've been undercover investigating for the last year and a half. It's called To Die For. Here's a clip. All these girls were sent out into the world and they were told try to meet important men,

try to attach yourself to important men. The voice you're hearing is a Russian model agent telling me about spies sent out to seduce men with political power. The war in Ukraine is also being fought by all these girls that are all over important cities. For the first time, a military-trained seduction spy reveals how the Russian government turned sex and love into a deadly weapon. If you want to kill your target, it's easy. You just seduce him, take him somewhere, start having sex, and then he's very vulnerable, so you can kill him easily. I'm Neil Strauss, and from Tenderfoot TV,

this is To Die For, coming March 26th. Listen for free on Apple Podcasts. I'm April, And I'm Meredith. And we host the podcast, Rattled and Shook, a weekly show where we listen to and discuss scary stories. Scary stories kind of like these. Door opened, sliver of light, footsteps to the foot of my bed. Same as always.

They had disguised their voice and were saying things like, I can see you through your window. If you like to listen to podcasts with a lot of scary stories, this is for you. Rattled and Shook is available now. But for ad free listening, exclusive bonuses and early access starting next week, subscribe to Tinderfootplus at Tinderfootplus. Atlanta, I'm your host, Payne Lindsay, and this is Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun. Hey, it's Payne here. And this is Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun. Hey, it's Payne here. Today we're doing an episode that's a little bit different than we've done this season.

It felt like it was a good time to sit back and sort of analyze what we've recently heard pertaining to Oregon John and break down in the studio with some of the producers on this show what our takeaways were from my conversation with him. Since the very beginning we've heard Oregon John's name and slowly but surely we learned more and more information about this person and when I was finally able to see this person face to face and ask him some of these questions, in a lot of ways, his answers spawned even more questions. I'm in the studio today with Mike Rooney, Dylan Harrington, and Cooper Skinner,

who are all producers here at Tenderfoot. And they were there in the bar when we had this conversation with them. and they were there in the bar when we had this conversation with them. And today we're going to do something a little out of the box, out of the ordinary in terms of a traditional up and vanished episode. But I feel like it's very important to break this kind of stuff down before we get even deeper into the story. And I kind of want to hear the perspectives of even our own producers here on what their takeaways were. We were all for there when we were tracking John Down,

which was a journey of its own. And I remember vividly landing in Anchorage that one night. And at that point in time, the plan was to fly the next morning to Kodiak, Alaska, but that quickly changed whenever I was messaging him from my fake Facebook and learned that hey he's not gonna be there. And so we kind of had to think on our feet and decide if we were going to pivot and go try to talk to him right now and two who was gonna do it

me or my fake Facebook guy What was your guys take on just sort of when the plan started changing and us having to to create? Something new out of seemingly nothing. Yeah. I mean this one this one was tough I think it was tougher than anything else we've done because I've been working with you since Up In Vanish Season 2. And we've had times where we're like, hey, let's try and corner this guy or let's try and talk to this guy or meet up with this guy. And this one was like, we couldn't get close enough where we were like, kind of there. And then we just go and we get there in an hour or something like this. This was a long trek to get to where he was.

Kodiak, how long of a flight was that? And then how long of a flight we ended up taking. And it could have gone disastrously if we went to Kodiak. I know you talk about that, but if we went there and he's not there. So we really had to make sure on this. And there was no way to really make sure until you got to a

point where you were talking to him about that. My biggest fear the whole time was whether or not he was going to be on that boat because everything else lined up perfectly we could see his exact schedule that was posted publicly online it almost just felt too easy or something. All was going to work out perfectly unless for whatever reason he was not going to be on that boat. And just out of my own paranoia, I had messaged him again that night and we learned that he wasn't going to be, but then it kind of changed the dynamics of what we were doing in the first

place. Cause the plan originally was for me to find out where he was going to be and he was going to hopefully step off the ship and walk down that dock. And I would just be there waiting for him and just say, Hey, I'm Payne Lindsay. I want to talk to you about Florence Ocpialak's disappearance. But that changed rapidly as we had more and more conversations about it. And we ultimately decided that if we want to figure out what happened, if we want to actually get closer to that, then we're going to have to do something out of the ordinary here. And leaning into what was already happening and kind of organically evolving and growing

with John talking to this fake person on Facebook, it was a risk that I felt like could maybe yield more information. And I remember just walking into the living room of the Airbnb and looking at you, Cooper, and that clip is in there in the podcast. I go, I'm not from here. You, you're from Alaska. And you're looking at me like, oh God. But at the same time, you're like, hey,

actually what was going on in your head when I said that? Yeah, I mean, I was right there with you. It took a while to get to the location. Flights are really bumpy, everyone's tired, and then we all throw our bags down, and then we look at each other and like, all right, the journey's over and now the next one's about to begin. I mean, I said something along the lines of,

talk about a big favor, like me asking you to pretend to be this other person was, I put it, I think, a big favor to ask you. Yeah, yeah. But you were on board pretty immediately. I just kinda wanna talk about why, for those of you who don't know, Cooper is our sound engineer and does all the sound design, does all the mixing and mastering of the episodes. And he's also been on the ground as part of Up and Vanished since season three.

Traveling with us and doing a lot of investigative work with us when we're in Alaska. I would imagine this was the first time you'd done something quite like this and why'd you decide to just jump on board like that? Well, I mean, of course I had the edge because I grew up in Alaska. So I had the power of just like general casual conversation

if it came up. I wasn't just like a fish out of the water, you know, I could just kind of just like general casual conversation if it came up. I wasn't just like a fish out of the water. You know, I could just kind of like fiddle my way through the conversation if things got weird or I can bring up, you know, this and that about the culture. So that's why I thought, you know, it was a good idea. It was your idea that we kind of both collaborated where one of us was kind of leading the ship and then the other one could throw in effect here and there just to you know Calm things down if it got weird and you're you're from Alaska

Yeah, and also from a tiny town in Alaska even smaller than gnome Tell us about that actually because that's pretty unique in itself Yeah, I mean that's probably another reason why I was just comfortable talking to someone like John It's just because you know the place I grew up in is very similar to Nome. It's called McGrath, Alaska. They're like an Alaska native village. It's got a couple hundred people who live there. Most of the population there is native Alaskan, but you got all sorts of characters that live

there. It has a lot of similarities to Nome. It has a lot of the same culture and a lot of the same architecture. Places like Nome and McGrath are preserved, you know, in a very special way since it's so remote. You know, people who live in these kind of locations, they learn very quickly how to keep things running and, you know, use the land to their benefit. I felt very confident that I would pick up on some of his mannerisms or storytelling aspects of the town or other small towns around

Gnome. So I just had a lot of backup so that's why I felt like a little confident going in but of course you know it was crazy at the same time. So we quickly conjure up plan B and we immediately hop on another flight and we've already been on three flights at this point. And this day was gloomy to say the least. It was windy, it was cold, it was raining and it was just completely uncomfortable moving around and we're touching down in Ketchikan. And I've been communicating with Oregon John pretty much every 15, 30 minutes that day.

And I decided to tell him that I was going to be landing a little bit later than we really were. One, because he had offered to pick me up from the airport and we weren't gonna do that. I didn't want him to be around there or see when I landed if I gave him the honest answer. And I also wanted to go find a place that we could be at and potentially talk to him

that we've already scouted out, that is quiet enough, that doesn't have some DJ karaoke night going on, and that we felt was a safe place to talk to him. And so when we touched down, we immediately checked into the Airbnb and within that hour we were suiting up and pulling out our equipment and I guess Dylan and Mike kind of talked to me about next steps after we landed. It was a long way to get to even Ketchikan itself from the airport, right? Like it was a long way to get to even catch Ken itself from the airport, right? Like it was a long flight, but then you had to get on a ferry go across the water to actually get to the town We didn't know anything. There was no uber

We had to call taxis one taxi wasn't enough for both of us in all of our cases So we had to call a sec second cat taxi and it ended up being the same taxi that took you guys to the place we were going. And then yeah, it was a bit of a scramble to get everything together. But I think, you know, we've done this enough that it wasn't terrible to get it together. I will say that I'm not super jealous of Cooper being from Alaska. I'm pretty thankful he's from Alaska. So he was the one who was right next to you talking to him. And I got to kind of stand back a little bit with Dylan. And I know Cooper's also had his moments like in season three when he was talking to or

when he was in the car while you were talking to V-Dog. Yeah, if you remember season three, when I met his nickname was V-Dog. It was Cooper and I that flew out there to Great Falls, Montana and then drove about another hour outside of that town and just popped up on him, knocked on his door. And that was a spooky moment because when we finally got to the property, we had like a general address, but we didn't know what the house looked like. There's no Google Maps, there's no, you know, Street View. And it was literally up this big, huge hill that was bumpy.

Thank God we're in a SUV. And the first thing that comes through our minds is that there's no quick escaping of this place. You're gonna have to go six miles an hour down this hill to leave. Um, but if you remember season three, when I talked to this guy named VDogg, it was a very brief conversation. He didn't have much to say, but I don't think he made himself look very good either.

And actually since then he's been arrested by the FBI on other charges, but clearly they've been keeping an eye on him. This NBA season, make every three pointerpointer alley-oop and buzzer-beater even more exciting with FanDuel. Download the app today to see why we're North America's number one sportsbook. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. GamlingPOM, call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. or visit connectsontario.ca. If you're fascinated by the darker sides of humanity, join us every week on our podcast, Serial Killers,

where we go deep into notorious true crime cases. With significant research and careful analysis, we examine the psyche of a killer, their motives and targets, and law enforcement's pursuit to stop their spree. Follow Serial Killers wherever you get your podcasts and get new episodes every Monday. But yeah, so Cooper's been in situations like that before, where it's nerve-racking and I think that my main goal was to sort of pad my existence there one-on-one face-to-face with John

as much as I possibly could and even down to just the subtleties of two people talking and us looking back and forth. So I can even get a chance to look at him at all and reset and think of a question. You have to remember when we went into this, we were going under the guise of being interested in this job that he has. And we couldn't just jump right to Nome, Alaska and dig into the details of a missing person's case without looking super suspicious unless we really slowly worked our way there. And fortunate enough for us, he was pretty open and he just started talking about his past and it wasn't very long before Gnome Alaska came up on its own organically and Cooper and I had talked beforehand that if he

brings it up we need to say we've been there before and create a conversation about that. And once we started talking about Gnome Alaska and we got into Flo's disappearance and why he left there, that's really when he said some of the biggest and most important things I think he said in that conversation. And I kinda wanna just unpack some of those. When we were all there in the moment, it's kind of hard to completely digest it

as you're hearing it because I'm simultaneously focused on making sure I don't blow this somehow. And when he said stuff like, there's a podcast about this case and there's a podcaster, in that moment, I legitimately thought, well, jigs up, right? And I either showed that on my face or we double down right now. And I just doubled down and tried to ask more questions about it and played stupid.

But to me, personally, he offered up a lot of information in detail that I'd never heard of before. And if anything, it makes him in a more solid way the last person to be with her and not only just with her but in his own words, with her all night. And we can play a clip of that. And yeah, yeah, she passed out and in the morning I woke up and she was gone but I left

her shoes and her phone. He mentions that they went to sleep and when he woke up in the morning she was gone. He also mentioned that she wanted a place to sleep it off, which based on your interpretation of that, you know, either she was really tired or one could speculate that she was inebriated, right? We've all been through this tape. We were all there when we heard it the first time. But from you guys, what are your biggest takeaways from some of the statements that Oregon John

made in that bar? Well, I think for one, him basically stating exactly what was left in his tent the morning after, when she supposedly left his tent. I think that's important, because that whole thing was a little sketchy for me, how we even learned about, or how the family even learned about how he had the items,

how he returned the items to Blair, Florence's sister, and just that whole story seemed very strange to me, like why was there not much follow-up here? He just gave these items over to somebody when they came and questioned him because somebody saw her or there was rumor that she went back to his tent, went to West Beach, and he's just handing over her items in the morning. And it's like, I would love to just see that exchange and see him hand over these belongings of somebody who is never going to show up again. Maybe nobody knew that at the time. Obviously, no one expected that at the time.

But like, what was he like in that moment? And I've always, you know, we've always heard, we've heard the tape of people saying that he handed over these items, but now we have him saying it specifically and what the items are. And that's unprompted. He just said that out of nowhere. Like, yeah, we were talking about Gnome or you guys were talking about Gnome or Florence and the missing girl or however it was phrased, but he brought this up. He brought up what was handed over to whoever. And I just thought that was very interesting.

I mean, that's like hard evidence of, okay, he also has said in the tape, because people think I'm the last one to see her, right? Okay. And then you're also handing over her belongings, the last belongings we can find that were on her that night Well, he actually he he literally says because I was the last person to see her alive Besides the person who killed her right and I thought he said it twice. He does say it twice

He says it another time where he says like they think or maybe he's talking about they think I did it They think I'm the one who did it when he Said he couldn't return to the town. I might be mixing those up But yeah, that's super interesting that he he's saying he was the last one to see her But then like I don't know where she just left in the middle of night when I was sleeping It's like then maybe you weren't the last one to see her. What are you talking about? How do you know that for sure that you were the last one to see her? That's a strange thing to say he apparently also knows that the last person she was with is the person who killed her and she was put in this barrel under

a meth dealer's house But the way that he describes who this person may be who she was last with who killed her Kind of changes and shifts a little bit throughout our conversation. And we can play some clips of that too. He mentions something about a search and rescue guy. And then he mentions something about this meth dealer. Did you know that dude who did it? No, never met him.

He was friends with her meth dealer. They conspired together. That's the thing is up there is why would you need to kill a girl they put out like this? Then he brings up at one point that the gnome police are corrupt and they're the ones who are also in on it. And he starts describing for a second about how a Gnome police officer raped and killed somebody before. Gnome is corrupt. You have no idea. Three times in the last 12 years,

the law enforcement department has been shut down and taken over by the FACTS. They are so corrupt up there, dude. It's crazy. One of the police officers was raping and murdering all the girls. Yeah, I heard that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was basically loosely describing the murder of Sonya Ivanov from two decades ago that we had briefly touched on earlier in the season. Yeah, which is super weird to me because it's like, it didn't seem like he was unclear or hazy about what happened that night. It kind of seemed like he had a really good memory of what what was going on

That night and what you know that whole time period he seems to remember pretty well And then certain things like that where he's like tricking in Matthew Owens the police officer who the known police officer who did murder someone like 17 or 20 years ago before that You can almost take that as he's possibly muddying the waters there. Like what is he doing? Why is he suddenly not remembering these facts? And I know you might not remember every fact of everything, but like who did it and where they found the body is like a very important thing you wouldn't remember wrong. That's a strange thing to remember

wrong, but you remember what items you handed over to the people looking for And you remember her leaving and you remember the night before but you vaguely remember how it ended Like that doesn't seem you're gonna remember if there was a whole search and they found a barrel under somebody's house That's that's gonna stick him, but he seemed very non-committal to those details, but he was saying him openly again But he seemed very non-committal to those details, but he was saying them openly again He's also the only person who's saying anything remotely similar to that besides Kelly which is the pseudonym we gave her who is also the person that he presents in our conversation as Somebody who would vouch for him who even told the FBI that hey it wasn't me who did it

it was this guy over here and if you look at her text messages that we read they kind of you could draw connections in her super vague theory, but the big difference is that John's claiming that her body was found and that Kelly took this to the FBI, meaning that it's a wrap, it's all over. This is a solved case. And I even mentioned that towards the end

of our conversation, kind of like why, he was talking about going back to Nome and if you went back to Nome, everyone would know who he was and people were still reaching out to him and I was like, why? And they're like, because they think I'm involved. And I said, but they caught the guy, didn't they? And he just responded that,

well, they still think that I'm involved. And so to me, it was just a very specific statement. It was very detailed. I mean, it's not like, like, where did he pull that from? In a barrel under someone's house. That's, that's just, that isn't true. Right, a friend of mine, she actually called the FBI in because she was working for the guy that killed her. She found the barrel under the house and called the FBI in. The FBI had to rescue me.

Under the dude's house, buried in a 50-gallon drum, that girl is telling you about it. And if it is true, then they never found her. Right? Or we haven't found her yet. You have to remember, too, that in this conversation, he doesn't know that we know anything at all about this case. So, he's saying stuff as if it's the first time we've heard anything. He would know that we could quickly disprove or know for a fact that flow has in fact not been found, right? And we just kind of played along with that.

To me, that's a key thing to remember when listening to John's conversation. And also that he offered all this stuff up on his own accord. I thought going into it that there was a chance maybe that we got absolutely nothing. And this lasted 15 minutes. He's like, send your resume to this website and that's how you get this job and the end. But I never had to bring up any sort of missing person for him to start talking about it. Which I thought was just, I mean, super coincidental. Clearly it's on his mind and when he thinks about leaving Gnome, this is a part of that. Right?

Yeah, it's strange because like I was saying before with the stuff he's being muddy on, it seems deliberate. It doesn't seem like he's being muddy on it seems deliberate it doesn't seem like he's just accidentally missing some facts also again he's he's bringing these facts to the table but if you were to believe and I'm not saying he did anything or was involved or anything like that we have no idea but if you were to believe him and what he's saying, his story is that they found the body in a barrel and the FBI didn't tell the family about this at all and they haven't told anyone about it. And they also, we haven't got to this tape, but he gets a cover-up story from the FBI,

kind of a witness protection type thing where they fly him out of there and protect him. kind of a witness protection type thing where they fly him out of there and protect him. That's a lot to believe. There's nothing he's mixing that up with, right? This is all some delusion he believes or a story he's told people or is telling himself. Yeah, to expand on that, I mean, I think the way you have to look at what Oregon John is saying

is through the lens of delusion. This story he's telling, he's telling to complete strangers that he thinks know nothing about what he's talking about. So everything he says isn't the truth. It's just whatever he's rehearsed in his head and maybe convinced himself is his truth. But it's him saying whatever he has to say really to shut the conversation down. To get you off his back and to make you look away, make you think, oh, he actually wasn't involved. Maybe he is a good guy. He doesn't want to tell the truth if the truth damns him, if it puts him

in prison for the rest of his life. He'll never tell you and he'll definitely never tell a stranger, but he will tell you a rehearsed story that he probably believes really deeply. but he will tell you a rehearsed story that he probably believes really deeply. Yeah, for, Oregon John has very little details when it comes to the most important things. The main one being, where'd she go after she left his tent? What was she doing there in the first place? Right?

Those are arguably the most important things if you're John, especially if you're innocent, especially if you're innocent. But he has seemingly endless stories and details about other elements of this case that go beyond him and point other directions. And they're not even really cohesive. And many of them are just completely bold-faced lies because we can prove that they're not true. It makes you kind of dig into the psychology

of this kind of person. And why would John be compelled to say stuff like this at all? Especially to a stranger who, in his eyes in the moment, knows little to nothing at all about this. Yeah, and we've all ran into people who can't help but lie all the time. It does seem like he tends to lie a lot, and that's just kind of maybe part of his personality. Maybe that's just how he is with strangers.

Maybe he just doesn't know you guys, so he's like, hey, I gotta show off a little bit. But some of them were very strange lies. Like you said, there's a lot of things we know for a fact he was lying about and a lot of things that I suspect he's lying about, but it's strange behavior all the way around for me. And I don't know, I would be... Even the way he talks about her and the whole thing, just how I would handle it, I would... If somebody was hanging out with me the night before and then they disappeared and Then I have some of their items in my tent, and I'm hitting them over I'd be asking people like in tents near me like hey Did anyone see where she went or who she went with or what's going on like or did they just really not know each other?

At all it was like passing in the night like we don't know the details of it So I just feel like I would ask around or maybe get involved in a search. But it seems like he kind of felt the need to get out of town when it all went down. Yeah, one comment that he made really struck me. He said something along the lines. I'm paraphrasing here, but we'll play you the quote. He essentially says that, The girls knew me, the girls in town trusted me, my tent was a safe place.

My camp was known as a safe place for people who'd come when they were drinking without any, and I swore I was never coming back to Alaska, and then I got this fucking job. But I stay out of trouble, I don't go into town, I don't mess around with girls, I got what you give me life. I don't, you know, I don't get in trouble. I don't mess around with girls. I got my beautiful wife. I don't, you know, I don't get in trouble. I used to ride around on my wheeler with a half gallon

of vodka just to get laid. But all my female friends that knew me were standing up for me, including my girlfriend that had rape charges on me. They don't knew me, you know, because I was really chill with the girls, you know? There's no reason why I do that. That just really stood out to me because it seemed like an overqualification of himself when it wasn't really necessary in the moment. And I wasn't really questioning whether or not he may have been involved. I was just nodding my head and believing him in the moment, right? But just pretending for a

second that I think that's true. I'll pretend for a second that sure, all the girls knew him, all the girls trusted him, his tent was a safe place. If that is true, then wouldn't this be the biggest fuck-up ever? For someone who outwardly, publicly states that people were safe around him, well, up until this moment then, because based on your story, Florence was not safe that night. Because as soon as she left your tent,

she was kidnapped and murdered, and these are his words, not mine. So you'd think that coupled with that, if you're qualifying yourself in that way and you're genuinely that person, you're a good guy and people trust you and your tent is a safe place, if those things are true, then I feel like simultaneously you also would be saying, I just feel so bad, right? I can't believe that after she left my tent, which is a safe place for people to be, she was kidnapped and murdered, you know?

I feel awful about that. He doesn't, or at least he didn't tell me he did. Yeah, also, I mean, we kind of know that his tent, well, I don't know if it took place in his tent, but we know that he wasn't the safe place, guy if you're a woman so claiming that is very Strange to me is especially if it's 100% provable that that's not true It felt like everything he was saying was really to throw you off the scent of a trail Right like it was always something that would just shut you down and immediately make you say okay He has a good answer for that

Let's just move on you know But when you start to add up everything that he was saying, being a friend of all the women, saying, oh, some other guy did it, they found her body. I mean, that's a huge red flag for anybody. And that's just, why would you do that?

If you're innocent, why would you do that? There's no good answer for that. And it was also clearly top of mind to him still. When he thought of Nome, it's the first thing he thought of. Yeah, you get what's crazy is you guys, um, one thing you were talking about before, like the logistics and preparation for it. And maybe Cooper, you can talk about this too. But you guys, I remember in the Airbnb in Anchorage, you guys were like rehearsing for hours on hours. Yeah, talking to each other, trying to get your stories, right?

Yeah, and you can, you should talk about that a little bit, but it didn't seem like it took much to, you didn't really have to stay in that much of character to get this out of them. But yeah, you guys were really preparing, right, Cooper? Yeah, so in the beginning, it was just gonna be Payne confronting John and Ketchikan, somewhere around the docks, but it slowly started to become a team effort

with me included just because I knew so much about Alaska that I could jump in the conversation if I needed to. If things got weird I could, you know, ask a question real quick about something about, you know, a common Alaska cultural event or something that, you know, people talk about, you know, like the weather, but it's like regarding Alaska. So, you know, we got some cred going again if the conversation got a little too spicy. And I also think, you know, just having the extra person there definitely extended the conversation with John. So we got a lot more material in the end. I remember sitting down at

the bar and just, you know, being super excited about the audio quality because the music, there was music playing in the background but it was super low and then, I'm not even joking, like right when John walked in, you know, the music went back up real loud and a whole bunch of people came in all at once. So it was the nice quiet dive bar with just the four of us and John the bartender, maybe like two other old people. And then, you know, just a few minutes after when John walked in, a whole bunch of people came in, the music turned up, everyone took all the pool tables.

It was chaos. So it got a little sketchy with, you know, the recording aspect of things in the end, but we definitely got what we came for. He slipped in, yeah, in the middle of the conversation, he mentioned the podcast for a second, and I quickly did a pivot to try to get out of that. And then towards the end, right before he left,

he brought it up again, and I firmly believe that in this moment, by that point, he truly believed us, that we were who we said we were, or that we had, or at the very least we have nothing to do with investigative journalism in this podcast he may be referring to. And if you listen to how he said it to me, it seemed like he was saying that with confidence that I thought that this you might be hooked up with those guys. And it bothered me that he knew about the podcast.

And as a listener, it's different right now hearing this for the first time because a lot of this stuff happened months ago. This particular conversation with Oregon John happened well before there was any public information that I or Tenderfoot up and vanished was investigating Florence's disappearance at all in any way shape or form, any of the family we had talked to

and friends. We kind of instructed them to to not say too much to people that they don't know and trust just to kind of keep it within the circle. So it bothered me as to why he knew that information so specifically that it was a podcaster reaching out to people. And the only thing I could think of because it was a finite number of places I think he could have learned that from was that the day before, one of the times actually the first time I tried to call Kelly was 24 hours before we met with him. And so I'm just guessing and trying to stick things together here, but it would make sense that maybe she mentioned

something about that to him and he just didn't really look too much into it, but it was on his mind when he met with me. Yeah, and some of the things he disclosed to you guys you should talk about where, like, we've heard other stories from other people about this guy. This guy who was names her with a J and he was a cab driver, right? And then what does he do when you're in the bar talking to him? He brings up that he was... That was one of the first things I think he says when you talk about Noam. He's like, yeah, I was a cab driver. And it's like, wow, this is really kind of lining up

with all these stories we've heard about you and this kind of legend that goes with you or this lore that goes with you. And it's, you're definitely the guy everyone's been talking about, right? And we heard those stories, right? I'm pretty sure we put that story in in that he was a cab driver, right? Yeah, oh yeah.

I mean, we knew that he was a cab driver, that that was learned early on. I think that to me, the biggest statement he made to us that was offered entirely on his own and in no way, shape or form was prompted by or Cooper, was the story about the rental car. And he mentions this story after I asked him if he was ever interrogated by the police. And he simply says, no, they never talked to me, which I believe him on that one. But he brings up after that just to sort of, I guess,

talk about why the police may or may not have been interested in him, even though they didn't interrogate him, according to John. And he brings up that rental car story. I had heard this story before from several people, but I had never been able to fully, you know, down to the papers of the rental car receipt and everything, prove it out definitively. So I hadn't brought it up publicly in the podcast yet. But if you listen back to it, it kind of doesn't even make sense as to why he'd bring it up. Like us hearing that knowing no other information, I would not quickly know the association to Florence's disappearance with that story he's talking about.

So much so that I had to break it down to the listeners, I felt like. Mike, Dylan, Cooper, in your eyes, what does that story tell you? The biggest thing for me is, again, it's like the cab thing. It's like we heard stories of him driving a cab, and then he talks about driving a cab

and tells us another terrible story he did while being a cab driver. And then this one, he volunteers it on his own. We heard from the family that he rented a car the day after she went missing, and it was suspicious. And why'd he rent a car when he has a car? And we were like, well, was this, you've talked to Andy about this, the private investigator,

and you were like, talking about this car, and they're like, well, did they ever do anything with the car, did the police check the car? And we're like, we don't know, right, we're not sure. And then he, yeah, like you said, unprompted just kind of volunteers this when you bring up the police, if they ever talk to him, he's like, oh yeah, let me talk about this car I rented the day after, but it wasn't for me, it was for my

friends who were underage, couldn't rent a car, they wanted to go fishing, so I let him use it, and then I just rode my four-wheeler around, and then I pulled up, and it's like, what is... Again, very good memory about this one part of this timeline, this series of events that happened here, very vivid memory of what happened with this this series of events that happened here very vivid memory of what happened with this unless he's just making all this up on the spot with the rented car but we've heard from other people who were in gnome that he rented a car the day after so now he's bringing it up is this some kind of important thing that needs to be followed up on like what it where

is this car now has anyone checked it have the police looked at this car have they not do they know about it did they actually question them or interrogate them I don't know yeah did that car disappear is it still there I mean unless that car went missing too it would have had to been destroyed somewhere or went missing somewhere in or around gnome shipped off somewhere on a boat, or it's still there, right? And if Florence's body was ever in a rental car like that, in theory, like Andy was saying,

there would likely still be some sort of physical DNA evidence in there to be investigated. And I don't know the answer to that question, whether or not they've done investigative work like that but Based on the people that I've talked to and some of the latest information I'm hearing out of the known police department is that it's Strongly possible that there isn't even a case file in existence in that building Which I think that would answer that question.

Right. I think we really need to put money towards getting that car processed by professionals. Even if it's no PD. Somebody needs to process that. Or they need to tell us that they have already processed it and nothing was found in the trunk or whatever. But somebody needs to process that and we need some type of a paper trail along with that, right? Some confirmation. You could also glean from John's statement there about the rental car that there are friends of his in Nome that he's close enough with that within 12 hours of Florence going missing, he's using his identification and his insurance

or whatever it takes to rent a car or a gnome, right, from that particular place for these people. And so it makes you wonder, okay, well, where were these people the night before, right? Did they also hang out on the beach with him as well? I've seen videos and pictures of some parts of the tent camps there on West Beach from Flo's friends. And this is within days of her disappearance.

And I've been pointed out by several people which one was John's tent. And there were tents pretty close together in a row. And so if anyone was hanging out outside, unless you were inside your tent, you'd see them. And so to me it kind of just painted a different picture a little bit. It wasn't like there was every 50 yards just a solo tent and it's just all you hear is wind. If people like were hanging out, they'd all be hanging out

unless it got super late and everyone was asleep or they went somewhere else besides that. And so if something happened to her there, someone could have seen something quite easily, I feel like. You know, it makes me wonder, did something happen there? Did they go somewhere else afterwards? Or these friends that John is mentioning, do they know something that they should be telling the police?

Well, I say police, but that they should be telling, period. If he had friends over that he gave a rental car to the day after or some time near the night she went missing. Were they not around the night she went missing? Did they get there that day? Mm-hmm. Right. And who were they? Yeah, who were they? And we would really like to talk to them. Just ask them some questions. So there's a lot of things happening in real time right now.

And there are other pieces to the puzzle that we have that we've not entirely unveiled yet either. So, having this conversation today is, I think, important for clarity for everybody. And it's also kind of one that we have to do pretty carefully. But moving forward in the rest of this season, we're going to chase down some of these new leads and challenge some of the statements that John has made. And leave the door open for anyone who knows anything to come forward and say something. And I think that in the amount of time that we've been investigating this case, I feel in my gut that we've got to the point where we're at the center of it. Whatever happened to Florence, the answer is somewhere among us right now.

And our plan is to stay on it, to keep the pressure going and press even harder. We didn't include it in there, but there was one point where I saw Payne went to the bathroom. So I ran in there too. And we had a little- Yeah, I was hoping one of you guys would meet me. I'm like, now's your chance. I'm like, yo, what the fuck do you think of this shit?

What is going on? That little mission, how were you feeling at that point, Payne, when I saw you in the bathroom? Do you remember that is it all blur? Do you remember the no I I remember that I definitely remember like being in the bathroom briefly and having like a chat with you because it was the the most relief I'd had and About an hour or so, but I just remember being so caught off guard at how quickly We were able to get into the discussion of Florence's disappearance, but then being

Anxious as hell about how I could keep bringing this back up Without it seeming so weird in that I needed to pad Every sort of deep question I had that was specific about her disappearance. I had to pad in between that some casual side conversation that had nothing remotely at all to do with that, or else it would just seem like a literal interrogation. And so I was kind of doing that balancing act

and seeing how far I could push it, knowing and feeling that each time I did that, that maybe this was the one time that he goes, why do you keep asking about that? I didn't have a good answer ready for that other than just trying to play it off even more. But then in that moment, really, it would kind of shut the conversation down

I feel like so I asked it again after that. It's like I just told you like I thought that's weird Why are you still saying that that's really why it was a two-hour conversation is because we spread out Everything to make it feel more organic and normal. I Don't know who is responsible for Florence Ocpialak's disappearance, but if you look at everything we've discovered thus far and everything that points back towards West Beach, back to Oregon John's tent, back to him having her things, all the other stories surrounding him and that scenario and that last night that she was

There on the beach and never seen or heard from again I think if you couple that with his behavior and how some of his stories don't add up and some of them are just Bold-faced lies it makes me personally wonder you know is this the one that's not a lie is the most important question, the most important answer we're all seeking, is this the one thing he's not lying about but he's lying about 90 plus percent about everything else? That would be a little weird I think, but you know there's no way to definitively know that. But I also think that, you know, there's no way to definitively know that. But I also think that, you know, we may be dealing with somebody who isn't going to come

out and just say something like that. My perception of him is that even talking outside of Flo's disappearance in this analogy, I feel like he's the kind of person just from my perspective from talking to him that would convince himself of something that wasn't true. Hey, it's Payne. If you haven't checked out Talking to Death yet, please go check it out. It's my new weekly show.

If you like Up and Vanished, then there's a good chance you might like my weekly show called Talking to Death. During this season right now, in the intro segment of every new episode of Talking to Death. During this season, right now, in the intro segment of every new episode of Talking to Death, we are unpacking the latest episode. Hey, Mike. Hey. Hey.

If you want to hear myself and the producers of Up and Vanished unpack episode six, go right now on your podcast app and look up Talking to Death and find the latest episode featuring Laura Norton. Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun is a production of Tenderfoot TV in association with Odyssey. Your host is Payne Lindsay.

The show is written by Payne Lindsay with additional assistance from Mike Rooney. Executive producers are Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay. Lead producer is Mike Rooney along with producers Dylan Harrington and Cooper Skinner. Editing by Mike Rooney and Cooper Skinner with additional editing by Dylan Harrington. Supervising producer is Tracy Kaplan. Additional production by Victoria McKenzie, Alice Konick Glenn, and Eric Quintana. Artwork by Rob Sheridan, original music by Makeup and Vanity Seth, mix and mastered by Cooper Skinner.

Thank you to Oren Rosenbaum and the team at UTA, Beck Media and Marketing, and the Nord Group. Special thanks to all of the families and community members that spoke to the team. Additional information and resources can be found in our show notes. For more podcasts, like Up and Vanished, search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app or visit us at tenderfoot.tv. Thanks for listening.

Imagine you're a fly on the wall at a dinner between the mafia, the CIA, and the KGB. That's where my new podcast begins. This is Neil Strauss, host of To Live and Die in LA, and I wanted to quickly tell you about an intense new series about a dangerous spy taught to seduce men for their secrets and sometimes their lives. From Tenderfoot TV, this is To Die For, coming March 26th on Apple Podcasts.