Up and Vanished - The Trial of Ryan Duke: Part 3

Episode Date: May 18, 2022

The Up and Vanished Team is on the ground in Ocilla reporting on the State’s case against Ryan Duke for the murder of Tara Grinstead. The long awaited audio of Ryan’s confession to GBI Special Agent Jason Shoudell is played in court.  For ad-free listening and for Payne’s exclusive Friday recap episode, subscribe to Tenderfoot+ on Apple Podcasts or visit www.tenderfootplus.com for more details. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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questions or concerns about your gambling or someone else close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor, free of charge. Hey everyone, I'm Eric Antana. Thanks for listening to the Up and Vantage Trial Series, The Trial of Ryan Duke.

This episode will be our most extensive when it comes to trial audio. We move more from evidence collection and procedural testimony to more testimony about things that happened around this case. You'll hear the calls left on Tara's answering machine, details about some of the people investigated, and finally hear Ryan Duke's confession. Here's Nina Enstead. As a missing persons advocate,

I am comfortable describing GBI special agent in charge, Jeff Rossler, as a missing persons expert. He's been with the Georgia Bureau of Investigation since 2000 and works on child trafficking, labor trafficking, and sex trafficking. In 2005, he was a special agent and crime scene specialist in the Region 4 office. His first efforts on behalf of Tara Grinstead took place on October 24, 2005, when he arrived at her home in Osceola. Now, Irwin County is not his area, but it was the start of hunting season, and he was covering for the usual agent who was off that week.

His testimony included a lot of explaining how and why he handles evidence in specific ways. His testimony is long and slow. We are listening patiently as he describes photographs, and more than 20 of them are entered as state's evidence in the case. If you've seen the diagram of Tara's house, Rossler was responsible for creating that. Then he gets to the good stuff. Fingerprints. That he printed several areas in Tara's home, including the front door, but found few usable prints. He printed lights, doors, and switches but didn't find anything good. He does tell the court that there is no crime scene tape

on Tara's house, which I find interesting. If her house was a crime scene, why wasn't it protected? Of course, the horse was already out of the barn. We know that when police arrived at Tara's home on Monday morning, both the four tiers and the Harpers had already gone through it, hoping to find Tara. As for Tara's car, Rossler did not touch it or process it in any way. We learn that Tara's car isn't looked at

as a piece of evidence for weeks. While we can hope for evidence from the vehicle, we learn that this is not going to happen. And the car, you did also go in Ms. Grinstead's car and you noted that the vehicle was unlocked? I did not go into her car. That was processed by Detective Vars and Detective Anderson, I believe. All I did was note in my overall photographs as well

that the windows were up and the doors were unlocked. Okay, so you ascertained that the doors were unlocked without actually going in the car? Yes. Okay, and did you process anything on the car? I did not. Someone else did. Okay. Our next witness is William Baudry Jr., better known as Bill. He started with the GBI in 2000 and in 2005 found himself at the home of Tara Grinstead.

When he arrived on October 24th, Dominic Turner and Jeff Rossler were also there. Bontree gives us a detailed look at Tara's phone, explaining how the cordless phone with its built-in answering machine and LCD display of caller ID works. Tara's answering machine and the messages on it became a vital piece of evidence in this case. The messages that you're about to listen to create a harrowing timeline of when those who cared about Tara started to realize something was wrong. But if you can, will you please play the messages that are on that extra machine for us? You have 30 old messages. Thursday, 6 6 22 p.m hey sarah this is perry i'm in for you about this just gonna check on you um just seem to be call later if you want to if you don't feel like it

that's okay i just want to check on you see you later bye-bye saturday 7.8pm Anybody have any more messages on how much I'm making? Okay, next feed. Friday 5.7pm. Hey Sarah, this is Tommy Griffin. I'm sorry about the event. I thought we might better catch Facebook tomorrow. If you give me a call 455043

Thanks very much. Bye. Sunday, 10.10am What? Hey, this car's taking more than 20. Give me five to check. Hey, it's called taking the most of the money. Maybe follow his church. Sunday, 12, 10 p.m.

Hey, hey, it's called, it's called TA, it's about to get started. It's been at church, it's been at worship. Let me explain. Sunday, 2,27 p.m. Hey, all of you.

Take me to the city and I might be home. If you're not home, let me know what's up. Sunday, 2.46 p.m. Sunday, 2.6pm Hey Just trying to Figure out what I need to do this afternoon Getting spaces, getting that call It's about 2.45

I'm getting all concerned I'm going to shoot over that way And I'm going to be there I'm not Making money that way. And I'm going to be there on Sunday 3rd, 15 p.m. So there's the cut.

I need to make a decision whether I'm going or not. I can see you today. I can see you. All right. I can see you today. It's a big... Alright. I don't know why I didn't hear from you today, but you can't stop me from talking. You make all these games.

But... Sunday, 3.30. 9.00 p.m. Hey, I'm in Austin today. I reckon I'm not going to answer the phone. I don't know what's going on. I'm kind of worried about this issue. I had a call me out there. They said call if I'm asked every time.

I reckon give me a call. I'll go get on the deer stand. Sure would like to see you this afternoon. I saw I told you yesterday I wanted to come see you. I just got. Anyway, hope you're alright. I may hear something. Okay, just let me know if you're alright. I think I hear something.

Okay. Sunday, 7.34pm. Hey, Terry, if you're there, please put your phone on. I'm starting to get worried about your neck. Okay, just let me know if you're alright. If you're there. Not like you, not I'm small all day. Please let me in, please.

Thank you. Sunday, 9.40 p.m. Please pick up the phone. Sorry, I'm not actually on the phone. I don't know what I'm doing? Oh, this is pickup. Please call me. Sunday, 10, Eva, GM.

Airway, please pick Eva, p.m. Can we please pick up the computer? Hello? Hello? Hello? Sunday, Eva, 25, p.m. And there's me. I'm not trying to do something. I'm just doing... It's me. And there's a snake outside of the door.

It's me. Sunday, July 44, p.m. First drive all the way down here, 12 o'clock tonight. And if you sit on the airfield, there's some, sit on the other side, and it's very considerate of you to do this. Monday, 12, 27 AM. Yeah, it's not, get this message, would you please call me back? I'm trying to call you all and all night. I'm worried. I'm gonna get this call done.

Monday, 12, 28 AM. Hey Terrence. Worried about you and I called your mom now. She said she can't get old over you either. She likes letting me know you're alright. I appreciate it. You know, just tell me you're okay. If you don't want to talk, that's fine. Let me know you're okay. Alright. Get this picture, Salvin.

Let me know. Monday, 12.58 AM. It's one in the morning. It's my last message. I'm leaving. I wish you'd call me, let me know you're okay. I got a phone up in there. Call me. Bye. Monday, 7, 19 a.m.

7.30, I hear a phone you made. Wait, you have to thank you, sir. Are you ready? We'll get to know you, all right? Monday, 7.30, 1 a.m. Hey, Tara, I'm just going to check on you this morning, dear. See you. Monday, 7. 38, AM. Cal, this is about 4 to 8, morning, morning. Please send me a call when you get home.

I'm really worried. Monday, 10, 19 a.m. Hi, this is Anita. Is anybody there? Will you please pick up? Monday, 9, 0, 2 p.m. Mr. Steele, this is Kayada. Will you give this message to this call today at 325-056?

And I'll message you. In addition to these messages of care and concern for Tara, we have this strange call that came in from a local payphone. North Coast Pay is what it said on the caller ID. And that particular one, why did that stick in your recollection? It is the first call on Sunday morning, the 23rd, and it came from a pay phone. Can you tell the jury what they're looking at on line 30? That is the first call to the telephone on the 23rd, which would have been the Sunday morning at 9.26 a.m., and it is coming from the North Coast pay. Okay. Now, you

mentioned earlier something about a pay phone. My question is how did you know that was a pay phone? Basically, North Coast pay. Yes, sir. And then at some point, records would have been obtained. And is that something that during the course of this investigation became a point of discussion amongst the agents working on the case? It was. Think of the last time you bought something to wear, something to decorate your house,

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charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to any operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. The prosecution believes that Ryan went to a payphone at the corner store, just a block from where we are sitting in court, and called information, or 411, to get Tara's home phone number and see if she'd answer. Their position is that when she didn't answer, she was badly hurt or dead, which prompted Ryan to return to the house with gloves and a quilt

so he could take her body from the scene. Listeners, this phone call was made at 9.30 or thereabouts on Sunday morning. Are we to believe that Ryan went to Tara's home in broad daylight, wrapped her body in a blanket, and carried her to a waiting vehicle around 10 a.m. and no one noticed? When it comes to removing things from Tara's home, Baudry says investigators took an item from Tara's bedroom, a photograph in a frame.

It's the picture of Tara in the cotton field. They used it for missing persons purposes to help people recognize and identify Tara. Baudry's testimony will resume after a lunch break, and he is followed by former GBI agent Larry Peterson. Peterson had a 30-year career with the GBI, and this ended with his retirement in 2008. In 2005, he was a microanalyst.

He did trace evidence work. He also supervised a team of analysts. Peterson is presented as an expert witness, and the judge explains to the jurors what an expert witness is. Ladies and gentlemen, the law recognizes two types of witnesses. Lay witnesses, which is just like an eyewitness that would come in and just testify something they saw. And then the law recognizes what are called expert witnesses. This witness has been defended by the state and accepted by the defense as an expert because of his training and experience in his field of forensic microscopic evidence analysis.

Things that are typically beyond the keen of the average juror are what expert witnesses are here for to help the jurors, okay? You're to give his testimony, whatever amount of credibility you believe it's entitled to, just as you would any other witness. Peterson is responsible for analysis of the latex glove found in Tara's yard. He oversees obtaining fingerprints and any DNA evidence, but he doesn't do the obtaining that's for his team to achieve. Like our next witness, Philip Prager. He's a latent print technician who explains we get evidence and we work with an examiner to get results from that evidence. He tells the court that at some point a decision is made to cut the glove into pieces. They are trying to get contact DNA and fingerprints. Prager is the one who cut up the glove.

He says that the knuckle part of the glove went to biology, and the fingers and palms stayed in latent prints. Prager is followed by Timothy Schmall. In 2005, Schmall was a print examiner for the GBI. He talks about some dry science-y stuff, how prints are made, how they are captured, some dry science-y stuff, how prints are made, how they are captured, ridges and valleys and oils and skin. He also talks about how he got the print from the glove. For me, Lisa Hobgood was one of the more engaging witnesses that afternoon. She's currently a forensic biologist for the Army Crime Lab, but in 2005, she was with the GBI as a forensic biologist, serologist, and DNA analyst. She tells the court that in 2005, this was the first case that involved touch DNA instead of DNA obtained from fluid like blood or semen. She says they wanted to maximize the amount of DNA collected, so they swapped both sides of the glove, inside and outside, which reveals more than one DNA profile.

There was Tara's DNA and another unidentified male profile. When you swabbed this glove, were you the actual person that did the testing to see if you were able to identify any DNA? Yes, ma'am. And can you tell us, when you swabbed the glove, item one, did it reveal any DNA? Yes, it did. And can you tell us was that of one person or more than one person? It was more than one. It was of two.

Okay. Were you able to tell anything about the other DNA? I did know that there was a male sample on there, but other than that, I didn't have any other identifying information at that time. Sitting here today, can you tell the jury how many different males you personally compared to that glove? I could tell you if I counted them up, but I would say dozens. Okay.

Remember Tara's now ex-boyfriend, Marcus Harper? He voluntarily submitted his DNA, as did her lover, Heath Dykes. They were immediately excluded as contributors to the glove. Although when they tested Tara's bedding, they would find semen from Heath Dykes as well as a small amount of blood, possibly menstrual fluid, from Tara.

They also collected and tested DNA from Tara's former student and possible love interest, Anthony Vickers, and he too was excluded. We've had so many scientists, investigators, and analysts testifying. It's nice to see a citizen take the stand. The state called Randy Hudson. Randy Hudson is a pecan farmer and the uncle of Bo Dukes. In my opinion, he doesn't have much affection for his nephew. Bo is the son of Randy's sister, Dixie. Randy tells the court of the property, a place called Fitzgerald Farms, where he has a pecan orchard, and he looks at and verifies several photos of the area. He also talks about getting a call from his neighbors out there, the Dickens family,

who were concerned that Beau and his buddies were coming out in the fall and having bonfires on the property. The weather has been dry and cool. These boys could start a larger fire. They are also upset because someone went into their barn and helped themselves to firewood. That firewood is special. The wood was put up by the husband for the wife to keep her warm in his absence. It's actually a rather sweet story.

Now, following you seeing the evidence of bonfires, did you speak with your nephew about that? Yes, I did. And what did you tell Bo D your nephew about that? Yes, I did. And what did you tell Bo Dukes about that? I told Bo Dukes that they had to stop building fires up there. Number one, because it was disturbing Ms. Dickens and Dr. Dickens. And because at a later point in time, they were burning some of Dr. Dickens' wood that he was cutting for Ms. Dickens. Now, you talked about some wood. Where was that wood kept?

It was kept in one of Dr. Dickens' barns there on his property. There's two barns, and one of the barns he had literally filled with pecan and oak wood for Ms. Dickens. Dr. Dickens was diagnosed with terminal cancer, and one of his last desires was to leave her some wood to keep her warm. And I certainly appreciated and understood what he meant by that. And that was really one of the issues that instigated what came later. Hudson tells the court that he had a come-to-Jesus conversation with Bo, and saying it was a conversation is putting it nicely.

Hudson made it crystal clear to his nephew there would be no more fires on the property or else. Our next witness is not nearly as animated as Mr. Hudson, but still has a lot of interesting information to share. It's now retired GBI agent Gary Rothwell. He was the special agent in charge in Perry in 2005. He admits to the court that in the fall of 2005, the Perry office was responsible for covering 10 counties and that the Perry office was short-staffed. Rothwell knew Heath professionally

and told the court how he investigated Heath. Was Heath Dykes someone who was investigated as possibly being responsible or involved in the disappearance of Tara Grunstead over the years? Yes. Was he ever uncooperative as it related to that? No. Was he advised or made aware of the fact

that he was someone who was considered a possible suspect? Yes, he knew that he was being considered as possibly being responsible. When asked about other suspects, Rothwell has a list. Can you tell the jury who at least some of those persons were? Anthony Vickers, Marcus Harper, Rhett Roberts. There were several along the way that we looked at. What about Jay Portier? Was Mr. Portier ever looked at as someone who could possibly have had either be responsible for or had a hand in the reason Tara was missing. Yes. When asked was there evidence in 2005 that a crime occurred, he isn't as convinced as other witnesses were.

Was there any true evidence back in 2004 that this was in fact a crime that had occurred at Tara's house? There were some circumstances that led us to believe it could have been a crime, and there was certainly that. We just couldn't rule out any other possibility. Rothwell does express his wonder and frustration with Tara's case. He never expected it to garner what he describes as a Natalie Holloway level of attention. He also knows that the names Bo Dukes and Ryan Duke were in the file.

These men were mentioned in the case file years before the arrest came in 2017. After that press conference, have you learned whether or not within the GBI's case file, prior to the defendant's arrest in February of 2017, whether or not there was a report with both Bo and Ryan Tang? Yes. It was another agency document within the GBI files. Are you familiar with whether or not any of your agent's summaries or reports that they did in this case included the names Ryan, Duke, and Bogut.

Yes. To your knowledge, was a follow-up ever done by GBI agents as to the document that was from another agency that had their names? No. To your knowledge, was a follow-up ever done in relation to their names being in one of your agents' summaries? No. Why? That is a question that has bothered me for years. And I have talked to other agents and reviewed the documents and come to a recollection of what happened,

but it's not an excuse for what happened. The information was received as if it had been addressed by local law enforcement as unfounded. That was a presumption that we should have never, ever made. But it happened, and it's my fault. On cross, the defense presses Rothwell about the conflicting reports about Tara's vehicle on Sunday morning. Did the GBI ever receive any information about whether or not Ms. Grimstead's car was present at her house on Sunday morning? Yes, we had conflicting information. We had witnesses saying that the car was there the entire time.

We had witnesses saying that they saw it leave. Did you have information that the car wasn't there until about 6 o'clock on Sunday night? That was one of the witnesses, and as I said, we had conflicting statements by somebody else, so it didn't really help us to have a conclusive idea of what happened. Well, would it be a significant investigative lead? Yes, and we absolutely took that into consideration. One of the focuses of the investigation was to determine whether that car left or not,

but we weren't able to make a determination. As I said, everything was ambiguous. We had conflicting information, so we didn't know what happened. So we were certainly pursuing the possibility that Tara left on her own. We were not able to— we ran that information as far as we could as far as trying to determine whether the car was there or not, but we couldn't draw a conclusion. We have an interesting closing note just before the jury is released for the day. I'm asking specifically, did you ever consider the thought that the squad had been placed there?

That was a consideration until we received the DNA analysis and found that we had male DNA and her DNA on the glove. We, at that point, concluded that that glove was associated with her disappearance. And with your long experience as a law enforcement official, you understand that sometimes criminals do things to try to throw the police off the scent, so to speak, correct? Oh, sure. Yes. And so if someone wanted to throw the police off the scent in this case, they could do that by planting a glove in the front yard in plain sight, correct? And you asked me that question.

I misunderstood your question. Yes, we did consider the possibility that the glove was planted. I do know that the DNA made it very unlikely that the glove was planted. I do know that the DNA made it very unlikely that the glove was planted because of the difficulty of putting two different profiles, including hers, on a glove. That was the inference we drew. I've said that we considered the possibility

of delay of discovery as if she had left in her car, was murdered, and then the offender brought her car back so that nobody would know she was missing for a longer period of time. So that's what delayed discovery means. So we certainly considered the possibility that she left on her own, something bad happened to her, somebody came back to delay discovery, clean up evidence, whatever, and that the glove was dropped then. Those were all possibilities. But in any event, the glove was involved in the disappearance.

On Thursday, we had a busy and long-awaited day in court as two things happened. Jason Shadel of the GBI took the stand, and we finally got to see and hear the confession of Ryan Duke. Shadel has been with the GBI for 15 years. Prior to joining the GBI, he worked for the Thomas County Sheriff's Department from 1999 through 2007. He was with the GBI in April of 2009 when Tara's case was assigned to him. He was likely the third agent responsible for this investigation. The case was considered cold or inactive when it landed on his desk. It was still an open investigation, but it was stalled. The case would languish until the summer of 2016

when Shadel had the opportunity to interview Bo Dukes at the Rochelle Police Department that June. It was at that point that he asked Bo Dukes for a buckle swab. I collected a sample, a buckle swab, which is like a Q-tip that we would insert into the mouth to collect a sample of his DNA. I have a voluntary consent waiver. He signed the waiver and provided that sample to me voluntarily.

Bo was not a match to the male profile taken from the glove in 2005. In early February of 2017, Shadell interviewed Brooke Sheridan. She was Bo's former girlfriend. This interview led him to re-interview Beau Dukes about two weeks later. At the second interview, Beau Dukes arrived with counsel. They ended up driving over to Ben Hill County to the pecan orchard on Fitzgerald Farms. When they arrived, they were met by Beau's uncle, Randy Hudson. Mr. Hudson consented to a search of the property and showed investigators the area that, in 2005,

was a cluster of pine trees and today is part of the orchard. After seeing the location of the burn area and completing an interview with Bo Dukes, Shadel and his team want to talk to Ryan Duke. They will go to the trailer he lived at in the Pleasure Lake area. Ryan lived on a property near his parents. When he came to the door, I didn't, obviously I didn't know him, I didn't recognize him. I had seen like a previous picture, like another picture that he had, and he looked significantly different, you know,

when I made contact with him than he did in the picture that I'd seen of him. So I asked him, you know, that's who I was looking for. He acknowledged that that was who he was, and then we stood outside of his front door talking about trying to arrange an interview. They tell him they'd like to talk with him at the police station. Can he come by tomorrow? And Ryan said it might be hard on his family because he doesn't have a car. At this point, his mom noticed that GBI agents are at her son's door, and she comes over to see what's going on. Ryan's mother agrees that she will take him to the police station. They decide to meet in Osceola

the next day. Here, I think Ryan and his family make a big mistake. Instead of contacting an attorney, they go in without representation, and listeners, do not talk to law enforcement without an attorney present. It's never a good idea. Ryan is led to an interview room inside the Osceola Police Department. It takes him only a couple of minutes to confess to his involvement in the death of Tara Grinstead. What makes you think it's about Tara? I was involved with it at my home. Okay. Tell me what happened. I used to break into people's houses just to steal money. I was a drug addict. I've been drinking.

I was high. I don't remember everything clearly. Okay. But I was stealing from a purse, and she snuck up on me, and I hit her. I didn't mean to. It's purely reactionary, but, I mean, I didn't know what else to do. You know, and that's the only reason I didn't come forward before. I mean, I just, I can't lie.

I can't live with myself. I'm so sick of this stuff. I can't lie. I can't live with myself. I'm so sick of this stuff. In 2017, Ryan Duke looks nothing like the clean-cut man sitting at the defense table. On the video, he is hunched over, shaggy hair, scraggly beard. He is almost mumbling at times, barely getting his words out. He says that he has a hard time remembering. I'm tired. My family's good people.

I didn't want to do this to them. I thought about this. It seems like my world's been loose by a thread, and I've been holding on to that thread for so long, I'm fucking wrapped up in it. Well, you're doing the right thing. No, sir, I'm not. Right now, you are.

If I'd been a man, I'd have done something else. It doesn't matter when. It does. Fear is fear. But you're doing the right thing now. I don't feel like it. Well, I'm telling you.

No. Having done this for a long time, this is very... I can see it on your face. I could tell yesterday that this was bothering you. All right. Slow down. Let's back up a little bit what night did you go to her house that exact night i can't remember i was so strung out i was working at a

factory working 70 something hours a week and it was in september i think later in the year the fall the exact year. I don't know. Everything's just been upside down since then. Okay. Okay. You went to her house. How did you get into her house?

It's easy. Pop a dead bull. You can pop a lot real easy. I mean, I broke into people. I never steal more than 20 bucks. I mean, just not proud of it. You know, I know this people. I never steal more than 20 bucks. I mean, just, I'm proud of it. You know, I know this is just for... He broke into hers, meaning Tara's. He used a credit card to pick the lock.

And listeners, as an aside, the Osceola police chief testified to the fact that this can be done because they used a card to jimmy the lock. Not the deadboltbolt but the lock i know that you've never been in real major trouble before i understand i'm going to prison and i'm not saying that i'm not saying that but what i'm saying is moving forward i want to make you aware of your rights i have to wipe my right to the lawyer at that point chadell stops interviewing him and gets out the miranda paperwork he advisesises Ryan of his rights and has him read over and sign the document,

even initialing it in different points, because Ryan has a story to tell. A story that is, for the most part, shared in court. The confession played to the jury is redacted. Much of the information referring to Bo Dukes is cut out or muted. The day of this interview is the same day that a DNA swab is taken from Ryan Duke. At the time of his confession, Ryan will admit to having taken a pain pill before coming into the station. In court, there is questioning by the prosecution about Shadel's ability to determine if someone is impaired, either by alcohol or by drugs.

I believe this questioning is done to reassure the jury that Ryan was capable of giving the confession and that it was not influenced by the medication. She went missing? Yes, sir. Okay. And part of what you did led into her being missing, right? No, sir, she died. Shadel probes here, trying to find out if he beat her or strangled her,

but Ryan says hit her and that he was scared and he ran. And she surprised you? Yes, sir. And you immediately turn around and you posture her, hit her, however you hit her. I don't know. That's one thing I can't remember is exactly what happened. Okay. I mean, could it be something other than a punch or, like, could it have been, like, a choking? Just scared and feared.

You know, that does happen. Is it possible? I'm not sure I'm able to say. Okay. Okay, that's fine. I know the difference. Yes, sir. Okay. So you hit her and she fell know the difference. Yes, sir. Okay.

So you hit her and she fell to the ground. Yes, sir. Was there any blood or anything? Not that I know of. I mean, I ran as soon as it happened. Okay. And then you said, how did you get there? That's what I have a hard time remembering because I had been drinking.

I got so scared on my own, but I didn't even go inside. I turned around and left and there wasn't no cops around or anything like that. I knew she was hurt. If you took this truck, you probably drove over there. Yes, sir. Do you remember where you parked at around in there? Just on the same street? I don't even know. And why her? Of all

the people, why her? I would ask myself the same question. I mean, did you know it was whose house it was before you got here? I don't think so. I mean, if y'all had a relationship or there was something else there, that's okay. She had relationships with lots of other people, including other students. That's not a secret. No, sir, I didn't. I never even had a conversation with her. Okay. So you hit her and she fell, and you think at that point she was probably gone?

I don't know. Because you had to go. Y'all both went back there, and she was still not moving. No, sir, I went back by myself. Okay. I said she would check her pulse and there wasn't one. Did you immediately, you said you left and you had to come back. So I'm assuming the door was still probably not locked. Did you have to break back in again or?

No sir, I mean I don't remember having to so I don't think I locked it. I mean I'm not even sure if I shut the door. Okay. You know, I don't know, locked it. I mean, I'm not even sure if I shut the door. Okay. You know, I don't know. It was fear and panic. Did you ever go back again? Did you ever make any phone calls to the house or anything like that? No, sir.

I mean, I... We know some phone calls got made to her house early Sunday. That's when I called. I wanted to... I hadn't got her at that point. Okay. I called. I wanted to... I hadn't got her at that point. I called. I was hoping she was okay. How did you call?

What did you do? I called the number. Eventually, after the infamous North Coast payphone call, he returned to the house with gloves and a blanket to wrap her in. And on the screen, you see Ryan make a cradling motion with his arms,

and he mentions how small Tara was. Do whatever afterwards you go, and you pick up her body. I'm assuming this is still in Bo's truck. Can you put it in the back, or can you put it in the front seat? Got a quilt, wrapped her up in there. He took her body to the pine stand near the orchard, to the place where they'd had bonfires, fires that were now forbidden by Randy

Hudson. That's where he dumped her body, and Tara will lay there alone in the woods for days until Bo Dukes and Ryan Duke return to burn her remains. So, I'm assuming this is Saturday night. Now, this is late Saturday night, early Sunday until Bo Dukes and Ryan Duke returned to burn her remains. After this portion of the confession video, the state lays out their case that Ryan possessed guilty knowledge about Tara's murder. Can you tell the jurors what we mean by guilty knowledge? Sure. Guilty knowledge is the facts of an investigation that the only people who know of that would be the person or persons who committed the actual act because they were there at the time and generally law enforcement because we have investigated

we have found out these leads we don't release a lot of that information we try to keep that information in-house so when we actually talk to somebody who was involved they're able to give us some of those details that only the person or persons who committed the crimes will have known that. In this particular case, when you became the lead agent, was it 2009? Did you become familiar with any guilty knowledge that had been held back in this case? Yes, a couple of facts, yes. And what were those facts? The first one was on the glove.

We talked about that there was an unknown DNA, male DNA on the glove. We talked about that openly, but what we never disclosed early on was that Tara's DNA was also on the glove. So that was a specific fact that how do we know that that glove was connected to Tara? Well, Tara's DNA was on it. We knew that, but we didn't release that initially. Will Tara's DNA was on it. We knew that, but we didn't release that initially. The second is a telephone call that was made to Tara's house the morning of that Sunday morning. There was a 411 call made to her house. This is before I had become involved in the investigation. I had learned this from other agents who had worked on the investigation. They disclosed to me after I became the case agent about that particular phone call, that that was a 411 call made to a residence from a pay phone at the G&G store.

So I knew of that phone call, and I know that that phone call, the 411, the store was used. I know that that was never made public to anyone throughout the course of the investigation. There may have been a handful of people at our office who actually even knew about that. To be fair, when you first asked him if he made any phone calls, did he deny that? At first, I think he kind of said maybe he did, and then he, yeah, yeah. And then I said, well, I know there were some phone calls. Because I came back and I said, I know there were some phone calls made. I just never disclosed the specifics of the phone call.

So that was my next question. At any point prior to what we were able to hear and see, did you ever tell Ryan Duke about a phone call being made to Tara's residence from a pay phone? No. Did you ever tell Ryan Duke about a phone call being made to Tara's residence in which someone used directory assistance or 411? No. He said that he called to, in his words, I think he wanted her to answer the phone or somebody to answer the phone like her to answer the phone that she would not actually be dead. Nobody answered the phone and then he went directly to the house. Throughout the course of this interview, do you recall the defendant telling you how exactly he killed Tara

Grinstead? He said that he hit her. Do we later on hear you trying to, I guess, flesh that out about how that occurred? Correct. One time we even hear you kind of make somewhat of a joke, like harder than he may, about him not being the Hulk. Can you explain to the jury the purpose of continuing to ask questions about that? Sure. At the time that he's saying that he struck her, he's saying he struck her the one time

during the interview he said he struck her and that's what killed her. And so you can hear during the audio and the video what I'm asking him to describe.

I'm not saying that that's not possible that that couldn't happen. It absolutely can. He was in the military. He's got military training at the time that all that happened.

I'm not saying that that wasn't the possibility. But trying to elaborate if there was other possibilities, other things that he had done, like choking or some other form or fashion that he had done to try to kill Ms. Grinstead. The state then presents additional footage from Ryan's interview with Shadell. Like I said, the only thing that I, you know, we were coming to today was, I understand the whole, you know know you punched her and hit her and knocked her out

I'll be honest with you I've never seen that happen a lot of it's clear I mean just to act itself yes sir it's I don't know if it's the adrenaline or fear or what ever happened I just it's not clear I can't see it you know and every other part of this I can't see it, you know. And every other part of this, I can pretty kind of remember a lot better than, say, you asked me what I did two weeks ago. I can't fucking tell you, you know. If I wasn't sitting at home, I wouldn't fucking know. And this is pretty traumatic.

You're going to remember that traumatic event. Yes, sir. And I guess that's really, you know, the whole thing. I know you're saying, but, you know, you're cloudy on that part, but you're not. I mean, obviously, you know, when you cremate a body, you know that you're the one responsible for that. Yes, sir. I killed her. I mean, it's my fault she's gone. I have no illusions about that. You know. Yeah. I didn't know getting as far gone on the dope and the drugs is just hoping

somebody, you know, show up, you know. Part of you was hoping to get it behind you? Yes, sir. Just because I wouldn't, like I said, I wasn't strong enough to do what I wanted. Willingly cause harm on my family. And I know that's a cowardly ass act on my part. There's coming. I deserve it. Been beating myself up for years, man.

It ain't a switch. Well, man, I've seen your like, I've seen your yearbook photo. I didn't recognize you. I mean, this has been really killing you and beating you up for the last 10, 12 years. There ain't a second that goes by that I don't think about her or a million questions. What if I could have, would have, should have, I could have done the right thing then and there and I didn't. That's the shit that bothers me. Well, I mean, you were scared, weren't you?

Yes, sir. I still am. I've got no illusions about where I'm going, either. Shadel then drove Ryan to the pecan orchard so he could help them locate the site of Tara's remains. On the drive, Shadel asks Ryan to clarify specific details about the circumstances surrounding Tara's murder. Let me ask this. Do you remember if there was any light?

Were there any lights on in the house, or or were there when you went into the house? I don't think so. You don't remember seeing any? I don't remember seeing any, no, sir. Do you know about from the time you got to the house the first time until you got her out to out here where you dropped the body do you know about how long how many how many hours it may have been at least six but you made the phone call and then drove you went pretty much almost to the house directly after that yes sir when nobody answered i mean

basically my worst fear right so you said you kind of drove down that way kind of check the area make sure you parked and then no sir i just i drove straight there okay so you think about so maybe an hour after you get, put her body in the truck, it takes you to do all that you got to do out here. So about five hours before the phone call, then you're thinking if the whole incident was five or six hours, then maybe four or five hours before the phone calls when everything happened. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. That phone call was, went up, went and got her and brought her out here.

And just looking back, I know you don't quite remember, but if you were going to dump her keys in her purse, would you have done it before or after dumping the body, do you think? I guess after. I mean, I said I didn't even, I hadn't even thought about that. Like getting rid of the body was paramount at that point. Yes, sir. Out of the fear. Yes, sir. And then the purse and the keys.

But, I mean, you didn't take anything else from the house, no jewelry or anything like that. And you said you don't remember seeing any jewelry on her. No, sir. And once again, I'm just saying this, if there was any type of relationship or friendship before, it's okay. There wasn't, sir. Okay. So completely random. Yes, sir. Okay. When they arrive at the pecan orchard, Ryan points out the area where he left Tara's body before she was cremated. Okay. So it's a lot thicker than it was. I mean, did you know when, after you'd gone into the house, did you know whose house it was?

No, sir. Or did you know, like, after she was, after you'd done what you did, then you knew who she was? After I could see her, I kind of knew. I mean, I thought. I mean, you had to know her to get the call 411 to know to call her house. Yes, sir. Like I said, I seen the pictures on the wall. Yeah, that was just a question I had with the whole, you would have had to have known who it was. You know, that's why when I say, when you say that it was kind of random, going there was random.

I mean, you just were basically taking a chance that there was nobody else there? Yes, sir. taking a chance that there was nobody else there? Yes, sir. That was the best hope, was nobody was home. I said the only reason I could even possibly be that stupid is I was fucked up. Right. You know, it wasn't a rational thought, because if I'd been rational, I'd never went in. Right.

Do you still have the credit card that you used? No, sir. Right. Do you still have the credit card that you used? No, sir. Okay. But as far as you know, you can't think of anything you took. I mean... No, sir. You went to get money. I mean, you clearly said you never got the money.

You just kind of basically threw the whole person keys away? Yes, sir. Okay. Do you think that maybe part of, in your mind, was... And this... As you think about it a little more, do you think that maybe getting rid of the clothes that it may have had some, you were thinking at the time, may have had some kind

of evidence to link you to it? And maybe you had, you know, you had removed her clothes and then wrapped her in the blanket? I don't think so. I mean, so I just don't remember taking her clothes off. I don't. And we've already established, I mean, this isn't anything, you know, sexual or relationship-wise or anything like that. Yes, sir. I'll say this, though. You do seem a little, I know it's all rough and it's been a rough day, but you do seem like it's kind of been a relief to get this out of you. I ain't no telling what kind of toll that's hit. You can't keep something like that locked up.

If you can, you're a fucking monster. Well, we're going... I know you said you're not going to hurt yourself, but I'm going to tell them to put you on suicide watch. I understand. My concern at this point is definitely for your safety. Thanks again for listening to the Up and Vantage trial series, The Trial of Ryan Duke. We've got bonus coverage coming your way in the form of a casual conversation

between Nina Enstead and Phil Holloway discussing the trial. That comes out tomorrow. Tune in Thursday as we cover the first days of the defense and Ryan Duke taking the stand. Did you see Ms. Grinstead's body after she died? I did. Who took you to the body? Bo Dukes. Up and Vanish is produced by Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta with production support by Core TV. Created by Payne Lindsey. Executive producer, Donald Albright. Produced by Thrasher Banks, Meredith Stedman, and Eric Quintana. Edited by Thrasher Banks.

Hosting and field production by Nina Instead. Music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Sound design and mixing by Cooper Skinner. Original artwork by Trevor Eiler. Special thanks to Beth Hemphill, Julie Grant, and Philip Holloway. Check out the discussion board at upandvantage.com. If you have any questions, leave us a voicemail at 770-545-6411. For ad-free listening and Payne's exclusive Friday recap episode,

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