Up and Vanished - Trial Discussion - Live from CrimeCon

Episode Date: May 5, 2022

The team discusses the trial recorded live at CrimeCon 2022 with Julie Grant from CourtTV. For ad-free listening and for Payne’s exclusive Friday recap episode, subscribe to Tenderfoot+ on Apple Podcasts or visit www.tenderfootplus.com for more details. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone else close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. you Hey guys, the trial for Tara Grinstead's murder has officially begun. This week, they're conducting jury selection. And when they normally just have lists of jurors, in this case, they have binders. We've been told that this part of the trial may take some time, but our field producer, Nina Enstead, is in the courtroom every day providing updates. This past weekend, the Up and Vantage team and I went to a conference called CrimeCon, and I spoke on a panel with Maurice Godwin, Philip Holloway, and Julie Grant from Court TV about what to expect from this trial. I also get a surprise FaceTime right in the middle of it.

I hope you enjoy it, and we'll see you next Tuesday for the first official trial episode. Sitting here today, right on the eve of trial for Ryan Duke, what story is really in your mind when somebody asks you like about Tara Grinstead's disappearance and death? What would you say to them is the story of that? Honestly, it's, I mean, since Tara Grinstead's case, I've done several other podcasts about other unsolved cases and, you know, submerged myself into an unsolved case. There's something still just completely surreal about Tara Grinstead's case. Actually, it's kind of weird. The first CrimeCon was, I think, like five years ago,

and it was right after season one of Up and Vanish ended, and Kevin, the guy who runs it, called me. He was like, you should come out to CrimeCon. I was like, CrimeCon? I was like, cool, let's do it. And then we came out and it was us three and we had a panel

about Tara Grinstead's case in season one. That's awesome. Five years later, this is how long it's taken, we're here again and they're just now doing the trial. And like, you know, a part of me had to sort of

compartmentalize this case to a degree because, you know, it was, I couldn't really do much more. It was, it was in the legal system and it was stuck. And until something started moving again, it was like, I can only do so much. And just kind of going back and just thinking about it and every part about this case, it's like, you know, how does this case end? How does this story end? I'm just thankful that anyone was even arrested and that they have evidence at all. And to your point, people say, oh, yeah, you solved it. And then the Twitter guys are like, you didn't solve anything. I'm like, I know I didn't say it.

Yes, you did. They said it. But I think that the real power of it is, I think that if you keep a case alive, if you keep talking about it, it's just way harder to keep a secret when everyone around you is talking about it. So I think that, to me, that's all that I did.

All I did was basically put it in the spotlight again, and everyone was just invested in it just like I was. And I think that that ended up mattering. And that's the unique part about podcasts and true crime. I know it's a business and entertainment and all that stuff, but I think that the listeners really feel connected to the cases, and if they could do something to help solve it, they would. Absolutely.

And I truly feel that way. You know, and for those of you who may not be familiar, you've got this beautiful beauty queen, Tara Grinstead, who's beloved. She's a teacher at the high school there. Everyone in the small town knows her, loves her. Super sweet, super bright. And she up and vanishes. Hence the brilliant name these guys picked for the podcast. And without a trace. And all these years go by. 12 years go by and nothing until up and vanished, cracked this case wide open. The GBI finally wound up charging two men in connection with her death and disappearance.

One man is facing charges for the murder. That's Ryan Duke. He's going on trial next week. They're picking the jury. They think it's going to last about two weeks. That's the inside scoop. Probably mid-May, this case is going to begin, and the trial will start. And then Ryan Duke's former best friend and roommate named Bo Dukes, plural, no relation,

but it doesn't make it so hard to talk about this case when you have Duke and Dukes and their roommates and best friends. But he's charged with the aftermath, the burning of Tara Grinstead's body and the cover-up. So, with those facts being said, let's begin with the guy who's going on trial, Ryan Duke. Payne, do you think the right guy is going on trial for her murder?

Just off the rip, you're going to ask that? I know, right? The tough questions I ask. I mean, to be honest, I really don't know. I don't. But here's my problem with everything, right? The state is saying that Ryan Duke woke up in the middle of the night, drove 15, 17 minutes to Tara's house to rob her and he broke into her house and he ended up killing her.

And then he got his friend Bo Dukes to help cover up the aftermath. And so my main problems with that are, one, she's a high school teacher in Osceola, rob somebody else. Like that doesn't really make sense to me. And two, I've done the drive myself and it's like 15, 17 minutes at night. You have to very intentionally go there. You don't just, you don't drive by it. You have to want to be going to Tara's house. And maybe he did wake up in the middle of the night and say, Hey, I'm going to Tara's house, but there's no way he did that thinking I'm going to go steal something from her house. Nothing was even missing. So that's my biggest problem. And so therefore I don't understand why

they ever linked up. And until I understand that, I don't like the way that this looks and feels. Right. I'm with you, my friend. So I do not have the expertise on this case as these three gentlemen do. I just have a big interest in it like so many people do. And for those of you who don't know me, I used to be a prosecutor.

I am actually a trial advocacy teacher. And to me, this case stinks to high heaven. Dr. Godwin, do you think anybody besides Ryan Duke, allegedly, we know these are just allegations with respect to Ryan Duke that he did the murder, but do you think anyone else is also allegedly responsible for killing Tara Grinstead? Um, yes, I think that Bo Dukes is heavily involved in this case. But this case was planned out. The murder was planned.

Why would you say that? Well, for one reason, somebody went to the conscious act of getting those latex gloves. the conscious act of getting those latex gloves. When you consciously getting two latex gloves where one of them is missing, the other one was laying on the ground outside

of her house with Ryan's DNA on it. Right. And Tara's DNA on it. So that took planning to get gloves, not just up in the middle of the night to drive over there and do that.

He had to think about using gloves and then actually go get them. But I think Bo Dukes is considering his past criminal history and his violent criminal history for sexual assault, I think that he's involved in this case. Bo Dukes, I have a little background information on him.

So he has what we call in the law crim and falsity. When you commit a crime of deceit, prosecutors love this, let me tell you. Philip, I know you know all about this, doing criminal defense work. If you have somebody with crim and falsi, it's like, well, maybe you shouldn't take the stand because prosecutors are going to wave this right in front of the jury. But he was convicted in 2019 of making a false statement, hindering arrest, punishment of a criminal, and concealing a death. punishment of a criminal and concealing a death.

So that was in Wilcox County. That was also part of this case, you know, the false statements and the concealment. And then he's got pending charges in Ben Hill County, stemming from the alleged disposal of Tara Grinstead's body on his family's pecan orchard, might I add. Pecan. Oh, pecan? Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. Is that how you say it I add? Pecan. Oh, pecan? Yeah.

Oh, I'm sorry. Is that how you say it in Georgia? Pecan. Oh, forgive me. Pecan or? Pecan. Pecan. The pecan.

I still can't figure that one out. Right? You can tell, yeah. Pecan. Thank you. Thank you, my girl. Yeah, she was like pecan. Pecan.

It's like. Yeah, I hear from Ohio. So, yeah, in Ohio. Yeah was like pecan. Pecan! It's like, ugh. Yeah, I hail from Ohio, so, yeah, in Ohio, yeah. Say pecan. All right. Love you all. So the other thing he's got, and this is so horrible in, I'm not sure if it's Houston or Houston County, Philip, in Georgia? Houston.

Houston, thank you. This is an unrelated case. We'll get you educated on Georgia talk. Let's just keep doing that for every word we say. Yes, exactly. Philip will check me. This is an unrelated... We'll get you educated on Georgia Talk. Yes, exactly. Phillip will check me. This is horrendous. He's accused of rape, aggravated sodomy, false imprisonment, and firearm possession by a felon. So that's a little bit about Bo Dukes' background. I want to go back

to the glove because this is so key. And in the podcast, you touched on this. I'm sure many of you heard that episode where, Payne, you're talking about how there are two different colored gloves you're hearing people talk about. What's up with that? I think in hindsight now, the glove was such a big deal in the case because Tara is just missing. And it's like she literally vanished. There's no clues anywhere. But there is this obscure latex glove in the yard. And that's pretty concerning when someone's just gone, right? Right.

And I think that just people's memories just kind of got distorted. You know, to be honest, I still don't know what color the glove even really was. But everyone has a different memory of exactly where it was or how it looked. Bill, you're itching to talk about a glove, I can tell. Yeah, yeah. If it's okay. The glove thing started out, like Payne said, as being like a, you know, kind of a rabbit hole that we all went down together. And as it turns out, I think the glove is going to be fairly irrelevant because they're not contesting. The defense is not contesting that Ryan Duke participated in the cover-up, the concealment of the death, and the burning of her body.

So the presence of the glove, if it was Ryan's, and I'm going to tell you this also. And before we finish, I promise you I have some additional breaking news, new information that might turn this trial on its head. I'll get to that later. What? Well, let me finish with the bill. No, you got to break the news, Bill. If you can't do that, you got to spit it out.

I'll finish with the glove. The glove just means that if it was Ryan's, it just means that Ryan participated in the cover up. It doesn't mean that he killed her. It doesn't mean that the glove her. It doesn't mean that the glove, Heath Dykes even said when he went there to do his welfare check, he didn't see any glove. So the glove, when it got there, it could have just as easily been dropped there accidentally or whatever when whoever was there, whether it was Ryan or not, when they were at her house to remove

her remains. So it doesn't mean that the killer left the glove. It just means that somebody left the glove at some point, maybe after somebody else killed her. So the glove, as it turns out, is not going to be nearly as relevant as the prosecutor is going to have you believe in this trial. Think of the last time you bought something to wear, something to decorate your house, something for your family or friends. What if each time you made a purchase, you got a little something back? With Rakuten, you can. You can earn cash back on just about anything you buy from over 750 stores. If you've ever bought electronics, home decor, fashion and beauty, or booked a trip, well, you could have got cash back. But don't worry,

it's not too late. It's free and easy to use, and you get cash back deposited into your PayPal account or sent to you as a check. Earn cash back at stores like Sephora, Old Navy, and Expedia. It's the smartest way to shop, plain and simple. Start your shopping at Rakuten.ca or get the Rakuten app. That's R-A-K-U-T-E-N.ca. Philip, I wanted to clarify something with you, please. So the defense team representing Ryan Duke is conceding he was involved with the removal of Tara Grinstead's body from the home and the burning of her body. Yeah, I don't think that part is in the scene. No, and this, what this is, this is basically, this is turning into Duke versus Dukes, uh, and, and whether or not the roles were reversed. I don't think there's much question that,

that they got the right two guys that were involved in this. The real question and the truth that we all want to get to is who killed her and why? Was it Ryan or was it Bo? The state has three things that it says, at least three things that they're going to say are the smoking guns. The glove being one of them, irrelevant. It's not a smoking gun. That doesn't prove that Ryan killed her. I'm not qualified to explain DNA, but I will just tell you, it's a mess. It's a hot

mess. It's been litigated in some pretrial motions. Whether Ryan's DNA is on that glove and whether Tara's DNA is on that glove, I'm not a hundred percent sure. Well, I will say this in pain, I think this is probably a good thing to share, because I bounced this off of you when you came on Court TV Live, and obviously I'm thinking like a trial attorney, right? And so I said to Payne, okay, I remember learning from your investigative work that Ryan Duke said that he was intimately involved with Tara Grinstead, and they had this intimate relationship and we know she had a dog.

He also uncovered that she would use latex gloves to pick up the dog waste in the yard. My theory, if I was representing Ryan Duke, my theory about the DNA on the glove, I would embrace it. I would acknowledge that it's his. I would not concede that he was involved in the disposal of her body.

But I would say, look, if he was dating her, it's very possible that he used the glove to pick up the dog's waist and it had his DNA on it and hers. Simple explanation. That's what I would do. What do you think? The pain, you like it? I can't disprove it.

It's a good legal theory. I'm just saying as an advocate, that's what you do. Yeah, they're not going to concede much. I mean, they may concede. You said they're going to concede that he was involved in the after. They may concede the glove. Yeah, you might see that happen. The glove was really important to the first part of our podcast in season one.

It's not going to be so important in the trial. Well, and I want to make sure I'm very clear, Philip, yes or no. Is the defense team going to concede that he was involved in removing her body, concealing this death, the burning of her body? I believe so. Okay. I believe they are. Actually, hold on one second.

I'm actually not kidding. My grandma is FaceTiming me. Yes! Yes! Oh, wait. Oh, I missed it. Hold on. Let me try her back.

She doesn't even know where I'm at, so I'm... Hold on. This is so great. Wait, we'll have know where I'm at, so I'm... Hold on. This is so great. Wait, we'll have to be real quiet, and then maybe you can turn the phone around. What's up? Like, what are you doing? Hold on.

Can y'all hear this? If she calls back, then I'll answer. Yes, yes. We're going to try to get Grandma on to say what's up to all of you. She is so cute. Yeah, we're going to have Payne and Grandma back on.

Court TV went up and vanished, and Court TV are working together on this one. Um, okay. So big time out. Philip has breaking news. What is the breaking news that's going to turn the trial upside down? Do you want it now or at the end? Quit beating around the bush, Bill. So here's the thing. There's two more smoking guns that I, Bill. So here's the thing. There's two more smoking guns that I, and that's my word that the state's going to point to that say, you know, it's gotta be Ryan, not Bo, not anybody else. And there are people other than Ryan and Bo that I think if I were a prosecutor again, based on the evidence, I could, there's other people I could convict on this evidence. So there's many, many ways to look at this. One of the things that the state says, and they've said it before at press conferences,

and they're going to say it at trial, they're going to say that Ryan Duke went to, we call them Swifty Marks in South Georgia. Okay. It's a convenience store with a pay phone. And back in those days, some of you maybe are old enough to remember that you could dial 411 and say, hey, can you connect me to Tara's house and that kind of thing. And it goes to like a landline, right? So they're saying that Ryan made a phone call after he killed her, allegedly. He went to the, why would you call somebody's house to see if they're dead if you killed them? But anyway, so he goes, he calls at 411 from this pay phone. And they're saying that when he confessed, and I'm going to get to that in a

minute too, that, you know, that phone call, the knowledge of that phone call is something that only the killer would know. That's bullshit. Because look, if someone goes to, let's just say, somebody goes to Ryan and says, hey, something bad's happened to Tara. Okay. Ryan says, well, let me call and check on her. Okay. That, what that means is that he could be calling to check on her. It's an equally plausible explanation. So when they say that only the killer would know that, that's not true. There's another plausible explanation, but here's the thing that you don't know that I'm going to tell you right now. And I have seen Tara's phone records to her home phone. That phone call is not there. What?

That's made up. It's not, it's not there. Who made that up? It came from the old school home phones in the infancy of caller ID had caller ID on it. It's not like our smartphones that are way more accurate. That number appeared, and by the way, the timing of the phone calls and all that, that's another hot mess that we don't have time to get into. But it's enough to create reasonable doubt. So there was some, Payphone's number showed up on her caller ID. And during the interrogation of Ryan Duke, they browbeat him into saying that, you know, he knew something about that. But the times don't match up.

Okay. Yeah. But here's the thing. saying that, you know, he knew something about that, but the times don't match up. Okay. So, but here's the thing. If you take that phone and you unplug it from your home phone jack and you plug it in somewhere else and it receives a phone call from that pay phone, you know, that's how that, that's how that could show up on the caller ID, but it didn't come into Tara's house. but it didn't come into Tara's house. That pay phone, it's not on her official records.

So if- But would it show up if it was 411? Yeah, but when the call came, they traced that number back to that phone at the Swifty Mart. The Swifty Mart phone did not call Tara's house. So somebody made that up then, right? I'm not accusing anybody of anything. I want to see what comes out at trial.

We're not accusing, we're just analyzing. So what are you doing exactly, Phil? But I'm just telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you that's not a smoking gun. An important legal point. That's not a smoking gun. It doesn't prove that Ryan is the killer. And that fact alone is enough to create reasonable doubt, in my view.

So one important legal point, I know you're aware of this, Philip, but I think it's important to understand, too, and I get asked questions about this. When police are doing an interview or an interrogation, they're allowed to say things to a suspect that just aren't true. Yeah. And many of you are nodding, yes, you get an A for the day. You know that's how criminal law can work.

And so it's possible the GBI, right, could have said, hey, we got this call you made. Dude, we know you made it. We got the records. And here they don't have the records. And that's how sometimes confessions are listed. The GBI has been lying about that because they said it happened around midnight. There was a call about midnight. And what does that tell you, Dr. Godwin? Well, he says it's not on her records. So how would a GBI know midnight?

Yeah. Well, Pants on fire. Is that what we're saying? Yeah. We can say it. We're among friends here. There's all, the whole thing about the payphone, he was, in my view,

from what I understand about it, was kind of browbeat. At first, maybe denying any knowledge of it, but, but finally said, yeah, but now Ryan Duke was on a lot of painkillers at the time. He was in renal, he was in renal failure. Right. Okay. So the, the third smoking gun is, they're going to say is the confession. And I'm just going to call it an incriminating statement. they're going to say is the confession. And I'm just going to call it an incriminating statement. False confessions, y'all are real. There's a lot of people in our prison systems across the United States that have been exonerated, released, uh, provably dishon, uh, you know,

exonerated, even though they confess to something they didn't do. Most of the general public, probably not a lot of you in this room, but the general public doesn't understand that. It's counterintuitive. Why would you confess to something you didn't do? They're way more nuanced here. You guys are like a false confession. They know this stuff fell off. You guys are super smart.

I am so impressed. Most people are like, why would you say something if you didn't mean it? Right, right. And like I can rationalize that. I'm like, yeah, you're right. Why would you? But then you see all these other cases where that's actually happening. Yeah, I know for a fact, I have talked to people on my own podcast, Sworn, that, you

know, were exonerated and had confessed. So it happens. It's real. It's a phenomenon. This case has a lot of the hallmarks of a false confession. a false confession. The facts that are known, the provable facts,

physical evidence, Ryan's statements don't match those things. We don't even know what the statements are because they've kept it sealed. There have been just little pieces. I know what some of them are.

Phil actually knows everything there is to it. Tell us, Phil. I know, yeah. Why are the rest of us here? I need to ask you some questions. No, the GBI,

Beau fed information to the GBI that the GBI then would ask Ryan about, which he would deny. No, I don't know. No, I don't know. No, I don't know. But then finally, you know, okay, whatever. Tell us this.

What was the most incriminating thing he said? If you've seen this, what was the most incriminating thing Ryan Duke supposedly said to the GBI? If you say, if I say, okay, you know what, Julie? I went over to Tara's house and I broke in there and I killed her. No, no, no. What did he say? Not an example. What did he say?

Because we want to know. I'm not going to tell you that. Oh, that's not how this works, Philip. No, no, no. But if you. Okay. You're going to say it or we're moving on from this point? But if I kind of say.

The clock is ticking. If I kind of say, okay, maybe. They wanted him to admit that he strangled her and he never did. He never admitted that. What did he admit to doing? He admitted to, well, and I use the phrase loosely, going there and attempting a burglary, which makes no sense. That's what we knew. Yeah. That's the little bit we knew that he's saying he went there, tried to look for drug money, that he clocked her when he realized that she discovered

it was him and that the punch was what led to the death. Payne, okay, let's talk about something you did when you, and that Oxygen documentary with Up and Vanished, oh my gosh, was that phenomenal. When you interviewed his mom and she's telling you about the drugs he was on and saying he didn't do this and he was high as a kite when they talked to him. Tell us about that, please. Yeah. I mean, if you look at the idea of a false confession, even if you're just the biggest skeptic, when you throw in the fact that whether it's true or not, his mom telling me that he stole some of her morphine before he went to go talk to the GBI that day, then at the very least you have that he's high when he's doing his confession. And if you're going down the false confession route, that's kind of some supporting evidence, I feel like, in my mind. Right. So I don't know.

Right. Well, you're absolutely right. Yeah, they're going to have an expert witness on that. Confessions need to be knowing, intelligent, and voluntary. I'm sure all of you know that. And I am shocked this is coming in. But our Query TV team was there, and there've been all these pretrial motions and there's a ruling from the judge that it is coming in. You know what else is coming in? An expert is going to educate this jury on false confessions and why this has all the classic earmarks.

Yeah, I'm sure they know that. This audience knows they're going to have to explain that away because if it's coming in, it's part of it. Dr. Godwin, what I want to know is what you think happened. When I think about this beautiful woman, and it's so heartbreaking what happened to her, and what's so unclear is how she died, right? Like, does anyone else feel like that is so unclear? What happened? Do you think there was a struggle? Like, does anyone else feel like that is so unclear? What happened? Do you think there was a struggle? Like, when you think about the story, what comes to mind?

Tell us about what you uncovered, please. Well, I think there was a struggle in her bedroom. What led you to think that? Well... I'm sorry, breaking news, guys. My grandma is here. Hey, hey. What are you up to?

Well, let's see what I do. Well, I went to church today. I know it's not Sunday, but, you know, I can go to church on Saturday. Whenever you want. I like to go. Well, I like to go because it's not crowded. And so then after that, I went by a friend's house, and we had a glass of wine. We had maybe a glass and a half of wine.

As you should. And so anyway, I'm just now getting home. So I had a nice evening, and I had a couple telephone calls that I had to return. So I'm good. I'm glad you returned my call because I want to introduce you to some of my to return. So, I'm good. I'm glad you returned my call, because I want to introduce you to some of my friends real quick, if that's okay. Do what?

I want to introduce you to some of my friends. Oh, okay, good. Are you ready to meet them? Okay, I'm going to turn the camera around, okay? Okay. Hi Grandma! Hi Grandma! What were you saying? This is weird, but I'll do it. Okay, honey. She's like, what are you doing?

Yeah, I'm in Vegas, and I'm at CrimeCon, if that makes any sense to you at all. I love you, and I miss you, but I wanted you to meet them because they were dying to meet you. Can I have your cookie recipe? And they're begging for the cookie recipe, and we're not going to give it to them. I'm not going to let it slip.

I'm going to stay with her when I go to the trial. No, you're not. No, you're never going to give it to them. I'm not going to let it slip. I'm going to stay with her when I go to the kitchen. No, you're not. No, you're never going to stay with my grandma. All right, well, I love you. Okay, talk soon. Love you! Oh my gosh, is that for sweetos? I love that when I FaceTime my grandma,

it's always like this part of her face. Yeah, so cute. And it makes me want to do that. I'm like, oh my God. I'm always like, but she's just like, does she see that there's a, like she can see herself in the top right? Anyways, thank you guys for playing. I'm sure she's going to like call my parents and be like,

you won't believe what happened. Your relationship with her is the sweetest. We should all be so lucky to have a grandma like that, who can enjoy this and all of your tremendous success. I'm sure she is so proud of you, Payne. Wow. Where were we? Sorry. No, no, no. It's all good.

Dr. Godman was saying the struggle and how Tara was killed. He thinks the struggle in the bedroom. Yeah, the black piece of plastic that was covering the light bulb was found under her bed. I found it. Do you feel like it was actually a struggle, though, or that it just was altered just enough to maybe look like there was before they left? It was actually snapped off in two. Really? And that's the reason why that I question

how good did the GBI look in that room? She was studying to get in the PhD program so her GRE, Graduate Records of the Seven Nations book was under her bed, still under her bed with dust on it.

Really? And then I found that piece of plastic broken off from the lamp where the light bulb was at. And I figured, I mean, why didn't they bend over and at least look under the bed? I mean, I found a whole box of letters from her ex-boyfriend under there too.

So they didn't touch under that bed. Do you think the investigation was sloppy? Absolutely. Absolutely. That's the reason why that I have been living for rent-free in their head for 12 years. Yes, Dr. Godwin. Yes. Preach. I mean, you all are independent from the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, obviously, but it was your mission to find the truth that cracked this wide open.

They were going after Dr. Godwin's phone records, even, to see what he was doing, right? Because they were afraid of you poking around down there and what you would find. I thought y'all were friends. They what? I thought y'all were friends, you and the GBI. No.

Can I say something about the GBI? Yeah, Philip, go ahead. Jump in. And it's full of fantastic men and women in law enforcement. It's a truly professional organization. I've got immense respect for the GBI. But there's this thing about this press conference that y'all remember. They came out after they arrested Ryan and said, you know, these guys were never on our radar.

That's bullshit. They were. Because a good friend of mine who I've known for a long time was a deputy sheriff in Irwin County. Had the name of Ryan and Bo Dukes. And he had the information that she may have been taken after she was murdered to a field and destroyed out there. So he went out and he looked and he didn't look, I guess, in the right place, didn't find it, but he wrote a report and that report was sent to the GBI and it was in their case file. Now, maybe they just misplaced it, but it's a giant case file, and I can see how it might have been overlooked.

But they were on law enforcement's radar in the days and weeks following her disappearance. That's number one. And now we know that the summer before, I guess Payne was digging digging around and under people's houses, literally, with the reporter. Unrelated. You know, they had interviewed Bo Dukes, and that's why Bo Dukes was convicted of lying to the GBI about the facts of this very case. So now, if he's going to be their star witness, even if they do decide to call and we don't know, they're going to be their star witness, even if they, if they do decide to call him, we don't know. They're going to be in the unfortunate position of saying, yeah, we convicted him. We sent him to prison for 25 years because he's a now convicted felonious liar who lies about this case, but you should believe him now. All right. So they had been talking to Bo. They had been,

deputy sheriffs had been looking into this since, uh, the early days of it. So it was not true when they came out with this press conference and said, this was never on our radar. I don't think it was a lie, but I think that it was false and somebody didn't do their homework. So there was a lot of sloppiness and that sloppiness can be enough to raise reasonable doubt in a case. Sure. We may never know the truth about exactly what happened. I don't know what the outcome of the trial is going to be. The defense has a lot to work with. Should we do Q&A for like a few minutes? Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's talk here. Okay. Who has a question? Find a microphone nearby. Ask away. We want Let's do it. Let's talk here. Okay, who has a question?

Find a microphone nearby. Ask away. We want to know what you all have. And we've got a virtual Q&A too, don't we? After the meet and greet. I think so, yeah. We're doing that as well. And so we really want to hear from you all.

We're so delighted you're all here today. Yes, hop up to the microphone. So I can't help but think about Casey Anthony and how they, like, threw all the charges all at once. Is that going to happen here to where, I don't know, like, are they going to, like, try to throw all the charges at once to where we can't go back once more information is learned and charge them with something? So charge who? Who do you mean? Bo Dukes? The Dukes, yes.

Are you talking about Bo Dukes? Yes. Yes, so, and this is one of those things. I mean, I said to Peyton when you were on the show, I think this guy, what, is he the unluckiest guy in the world that his best friend uses his truck to move the body of the person he claims his best friend killed and then her body is burned on his family's pecan orchard?

Those are some pretty horrific ones. It's one thing being that unlucky, but then being that shitty at the same time is like a really... Right. That's really like a really... Right. That's really... Right. Yeah, it's weird. No, it's very weird.

And they've made a charging decision. You know, I think to answer your question, they've decided that according to the way they see this case, and they, I mean, the state of Georgia, they're saying that these two guys were involved. They're claiming that Ryan Duke did the murder and that Bo Dukes helped him with the cover-up. But we know that at trial, Ryan Duke is proclaiming his innocence. He's being defended on innocence grounds. And Bo Dukes' testimony could either make or break it. If he gets up there and says, I'm his alibi.

I was his roommate. I was with him. Neither of us did this. State's case goes. But if he gets up there and says, look, I helped him. I did X, Y, and Z, you know, he could solidify it. So he's really kind of a wild card. And he's, we, from what our intel, our court TV team has learned, he's going to take the fifth from what we understand it and not going to say anything. And we think the state is going to try to introduce statements

Bo Dukes made to other people. And I will tell you, it is hearsay without exception under the rules of evidence. And it's reversible error. And by that you mean on appeal. I mean that if there's a conviction based on illegal hearsay being introduced, then they may have to do the whole thing over again. I'm not sure he's going to take the fifth. I think that Bo Dukes may have a surprise in store. I don't know, but we'll see.

Hi. First of all, I loved your podcast. I am a true crime fan, and my friends that didn't even like true crime loved your podcast. It was very, we couldn't wait till the next episode. So thank you for making my workouts awesome back then. That's awesome.

But my question is for Phillip. I'm actually a prosecutor, and we are very tight-lipped about any cases, really, that are for trial. And I understand how the discovery works. My question is, do you have an inside source at the DA's office? You seem to know a lot of information that, for instance, the phone records and other discovery that I know would not be public record. You seem to have access to that. And number one, I'm concerned if that's leaked. And number two, is it not fair to say that there's a possibility that there is evidence that

you don't know anything about? Oh, yeah. I don't know at all. I've never claimed that I do. I'm not going to tell you. I've got a lot of sources. I was in law enforcement for a long time, most of it in South Georgia. People in law enforcement have been telling me stuff about this case off the record for years. So, you know, there's, I don't, I don't possess anything that is illegal to possess. I'm not, and I certainly don't know all of the things that are going on, but I have followed the pretrial proceedings. And a lot of this stuff, by the way, has already been introduced into the record in pretrial matters and things like that. Yeah. Now, I haven't been following it lately, so I'm interested to know whether or not the expert

that you were speaking of on the false confessions, has there already been a hearing to determine whether or not that is going to be admissible at trial? Yes. Okay. And he's going to testify. So the judge already ordered that his testimony is admissible. Okay. Interesting. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Next question, please. It's so great to see you all. This is fantastic. This is like my Super Bowl. This is my first CrimeCon, and I'm with my tribe, and I love it. But I wonder if you could tell us just a little bit about the learning curve for you, Payne, starting a podcast. I can imagine how overwhelmed you might have felt, and just that learning curve,

because there's probably some budding podcasters in here to include me and just considering how do you start a project like that? That's a really good question. I mean there is no magic answer that I could just say

hey if you do this you're good. I don't think it works that way. It's definitely a constant learning experience for me, just an evolution. But to be honest, I listen to very few podcasts, even still today. And my mantra in making Up and Vanished in the very beginning was just wanting to make a podcast

that I wanted to listen to. And that's all I knew. It was like, okay, if I'd listened to it, and I don't really listen to podcasts like that, then maybe other people would like it too. But I always cared about how I delivered the information. I'm one of those people who gets easily lost in a documentary or a podcast. Like, wait, wait, what's going on? And so if I force myself to tell this story, I try to parse it out in a way that is easy to understand without making you feel dumb while I do it.

Well, I helped you with the learning curve on Up and Vanish. You said what? I helped you with the learning curve with Up and vanish He said what I have to do with the learning curve on with up advantage. Oh you help with yeah Yeah, we had some pretty big fights sometimes Yeah, I can't see that happening you can't see it but am I is it true it's true it's true you were like breaking up with me every three weeks, I was like Marie so it's like I It's true. You were like breaking up with me every three weeks. I was like, Marie. So I was like, I found something and you're back. We're good. So cute. You guys are awesome. Thanks for the question. Next question, please.

Hi, my name is Lisa from Texas. I just want to say that I feel very fortunate being on the receiving end of the knowledge, the wealth of knowledge that your big brains spew out. I just really appreciate that. Followed this case for years. My question is, there was an issue about the funding for Ryan's case when he had the court appointed attorney and then another attorney took over to do it pro bono and then they were trying to withhold that funding. Was that ever resolved? Yeah.

Can I answer that one? Sure. So yeah, that went up to the Georgia Supreme Court on an interlocutory pretrial basis. There's no doubt that he's indigent. He's been in jail for a number of years. Even before he was in jail, he was broke as a joke. So he was able to take advantage of the assistance of some pro bono lawyers that have volunteered to represent him. But they still need tools. The prosecutor who just spoke, I'm sure she would agree, any lawyer, whether you're a prosecutor or defense lawyer, you need tools. You can't do it all yourself. You need investigators, you need expert witnesses, and those things cost money. So the judge was like, I don't dispute that he's

indigent and maybe what he should do, but he gives, he didn't think he had the power to order the state, uh, public defender agency, if you will, to, to spend their money when they weren't actually representing him. Supreme court said, uh, he, you know, we, y'all got to figure this out. He's indigent. He's got a right to a lawyer. And that means he's got the right to the effective assistance of a lawyer. And a lawyer without the tools that they need can't be effective. Thank you. Great question. Thank you all.

And we see the cue card saying that's the last question. But fear not. We've got a virtual Q&A coming up after the meet and greet. So just want to say on behalf of Payne Lindsey, Philip Holloway, and Dr. Maurice Godwin, thank you all for spending part of your afternoon with us. We love you. We appreciate you. And we look forward to connecting with you after this with a trial of Ryan Duke. See you soon.

Thank you, guys. Thank you. This is it. The final chapter of Up and Vanish season one. Check in with us every week until the end of trial for ongoing coverage. There will be new trial coverage episodes every Tuesday and Thursday.

If you join Tenderfoot Plus, you can also get exclusive Friday recap episodes hosted by Payne. To join Tenderfoot Plus, go to also get exclusive Friday recap episodes hosted by Payne. To join Tenderfoot Plus, go to Apple Podcasts or tenderfootplus.com. Up and Vanished is produced by Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta. Created and hosted by Payne Lindsey. Executive producer, Donald Albright. Produced by Thrasher Banks and Meredith St Albright. Produced by Thrasher Banks

and Meredith Stedman. Edited by Thrasher Banks. Additional hosting by Nina Instead and Meredith Stedman. Music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Sound design and mix by Cooper Skinner. Original artwork by Trevor Eiler. We'd like to give a special thank you

to Court TV. Check out the discussion board at upandvanish.com. If you have any questions, leave us a voicemail at 770-545-6411. Thanks for listening.