Up and Vanished - What the Body Reveals

Episode Date: May 30, 2025

In this episode we go over Jessica's polygraph test results and analysis. Join our Discord: https://discord.gg/upandvanished To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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The names of survivors have been changed for anonymity purposes. Testimony shared by guests of the show is their own and does not reflect the views of Tenderfoot TV or Odyssey. Thank you so much for listening. From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun. I'm your host, Payne Lindsay. I'm Mike Rooney, and I've been helping Payne create Up and Vanished since season 2. I usually prefer to be behind the scenes, but Payne is currently dealing with some things,

and he really wanted to get these results out. So, here goes nothing. For this episode, we wanted to follow up with our polygraph expert, Jessica, and go over all of the charts from John's polygraph test. This was an interesting day. of the charts from John's polygraph test. This was an interesting day. I was actually in the room next door with the door closed, hiding so that I could record the test with a hidden mic and not affect his answers in any way. We wanted to ensure that John felt comfortable and that he was alone in the room with her, while maintaining everyone's safety.

and that he was alone in the room with her, while maintaining everyone's safety. Anyways, here's our follow-up with Jessica. Normally when I test somebody, you know, a real test, not for some TV show or something, we do what we call a throwaway test. Before we actually do the test, we'll say, these are the questions we're going to ask. So that they're not jumping with surprise. So I did a total of three charts. You've got to remember, a polygraph machine does not directly detect lies, but rather measures

the physiological responses to questions, which are then interpreted by the examiner. It's known worldwide as a lie detector test. It actually doesn't determine someone's life. We're reading physiological responses to questions. And then those are interpreted by me or whoever the examiner is. For the accuracy of the interpretation

and the effectiveness of polygraph tests in detecting deception. I mean, obviously that's still an ongoing debate, but they use them in law enforcement agencies across the US. You can't become a police officer without passing a polygraph test. Then 20% of the candidates fail. So we know that they are effective,

but you have to remember that these are physiological responses. So here's the thing with his breathing, there were questions that I asked and he would almost hold his breath for a second. When it flatlines, that's also a sign of deception. And his blood pressure would shoot up. You can elaborate later, like you just have to answer yes or no right when that question is fired off to you. That gives you immediate response. Any delays or any movement after that, we're taking that first 15 seconds

and that's what we're measuring. That's what we're looking at on the polygraph. So did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? He said, no. That showed he was telling the truth. No deception was indicated. So in other words, did you tell the truth

about law enforcement about everything you know? He said no, and that one showed deception. First he said yes, and then he said no. Did you tell the truth about law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? No. First he said yes and then he said no. But that was on the last one he said no and that did show he was telling the truth. He said yes and then he said no. But when he said no it showed he was telling the truth. It showed he was being forthright and honest.

So did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? No. That right there sets him up for everything because he said no and that showed he wasn't being deceptive. So in other words, he's held back on a lot of things probably with law enforcement and with you guys as well. Because he already said no, he didn't tell law enforcement everything he knows about Florence's disappearance. Did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? And he said, no, he's admitting already that he's holding back, that he didn't tell everything.

That showed he was telling the truth. His body had no reaction regarding deception because he was clearly saying, no, I didn't tell them everything. He knows more than he's willing to say. Then he also was asked, have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked? That also sowed deception because he answered no. But the problem is it's complete conflict with the other question, did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance?

No. So he's saying, no, I didn't tell them everything. And that showed he was telling the truth, right? So this other question, have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked? When he says no, it showed deception. So this other question, have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked? When he says no, it showed deception.

And you could almost understand that it's going to show deception because in the previous question he already said he didn't tell law enforcement everything about Florence's disappearance. The other one about have you ever had sexual contact with Florence? Oh, p-luck. He said no. And he was like really adamant. The other one about, have you ever had sexual contact with Florence Oak-Pilup? He said no, and he was like really adamant. His physiological responses in his body exploded. So not only was it just the skin conductor, but the blood pressure and the breathing, all just exploded on the chart. So I don't know what he did. I don't know if he had sex. I don't know if he had sex and it was

consensual or not consensual. I don't know if he touched her. We don't know any of this, but we do know that when he was asked that question, this was the probably the most dominant question regarding his reaction and these physiological changes in his body. So everything on the chart exploded. His breathing, his blood pressure, and the GSR, the galvanized skin response, the skin conductivity. It showed deception. Because remember, we're measuring physiological changes in his body with these things hooked up to him. The breathing apparatus, the skin conductivity

does run his fingertips and with the blood pressure cuff on his arm. But this one was the most dominant of everything that was asked of him. So again, we don't know if he actually had sex with her. We don't know if he did, if it was consensual or not. But the question was, have you ever had sexual contact with Florence?

So, you know, it doesn't have to be sex. It's sexual contact was the question that pain had given me. And when he was asked that his body exploded. And he said no, and he was adamant about it, but his body exploded. So something occurred between them, but we don't know what because we weren't there. But it definitely showed deception. Is Florence Opiluk alive? He was like squirming on this one. Remember, yes or no questions, he has to answer with his mouth only with no movement. So any movement can show deception because that raises things. It can raise your blood pressure, it can change your breathing,

and it can also shoot microscopic changes to sweat to the fingertips. So on this one, he was like, I don't know, I don't know how to answer that, blah, blah, blah. And he was squirming. He said he didn't know, right? So that right there is an indication of deception.

I mean, is she alive? He wasn't able to answer that. Then there was, do you know what happened to Florence? And he said no, and there was deception indicated. Definitely the strongest one for me, my favorite out of all of these physiological changes are the ones to the sweat because some people can control their breathing a little. Even blood pressure, you know, some people can be calm.

And I think he started out thinking because so much time had passed, it's been like five years, right? My feeling regarding him and watching his responses to these was I believe that he felt like so much time has passed he would easily pass a polygraph. I truly believe that. You heard all of the things he was saying to me before we even started the test. He protects women and he's, you know, he was just trying to go overboard on his innocence and what a good guy he is. And pain had forewarned me about him.

When we asked, do you know what happened to Florence? Deception was indicated when he said no. So he definitely knows more than he's saying. Also are there other people involved in her disappearance? That was the other one that he squirmed on. You know, he didn't know how to answer that. So obviously this is a sign of deception. Did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's

disappearance? He said no. That showed he was telling the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? He said no. That showed he was telling the truth. Right there he's saying that he's holding back information. And then the other one was, have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked? And that one showed deception because he obviously said no. So based on the federal guidelines

and readings of this polygraph test, it clearly shows deception overall, with the exception of did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance. He said no, that showed he was telling the truth. That right there tells you that this guy is holding back. But based on the guidelines on all the other questions, it did show deception.

I mean, I believe he definitely knows more than he's willing to say, and he's definitely not being forthright about it. And he's definitely not being forthright about it. He's, I think he's possibly a bit of a narcissist. There's three different types of narcissism and he falls into a certain category of narcissism. And I think he definitely does not believe his own lies. His body react is so dominant and sharp. And I have a feeling that he has probably changed his answers. If he was asked these by law enforcement or anything, he's probably changed his answers with them many times as well. But I think that

he has a problem telling the truth. He will not be forthright. I think he knows more. He knows more than he's telling. So, yeah, he's overall, the guy is very deceptive. And such a long time has passed. Five years is a long time. And his body still reacted.

On the outside, he acted very, yeah, I want to clear my name, let's get this over with. But I believe that this guy truly believed that so much time had passed, he would be able to pass a polygraph, no matter what the questions were. His body told a different story. The only question that he told the truth on was when I asked him, did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? And he said no. That showed he was telling the truth. Everything else showed signs of

deception. That was on everything else showed deception from him. His heart rate, his blood pressure, his respiration and his skin conductivity, all if they didn't just fluctuate, they, they shot up so much. That happens when a person is stressed or, you know, excited. And his body was doing that after, after five years. That's what his body was doing. You know, when he was asked these questions, was doing, you know, when he was asked these questions, which is signs of deception. I asked questions in between to keep to keep a baseline. So I asked him questions in between like have you ever read the McDonald's because that shows what his body does when he's telling the truth, right? And then you ask a relevant question after that and then his body would explode. So he definitely had very serious signs of deception. He was being deceptive. This guy is,

I think he's deceptive. I think he knows a lot more than he knows. I think that he thought that after all this time, he truly believed that he would have this easily. And it just, it didn't happen. He passed one question and that was, did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? When he said no, that showed it was telling the truth.

So out of these questions, that was the only one he passed. If you or I were hooked up to this polygraph instrument, and we know that we were telling the truth about all the questions that were asked. I can tell you this. When I, when I trust my polygraph from the law enforcement agency I was with, I didn't get up and say, I hope I passed or did I pass? I knew that I'd pass. I didn't ask them, Hey, how'd I do that? pass? Because I already knew I was telling the truth. If somebody would have told me, hey, you didn't pass, I would have said, then your machine is broken. Your instrument needs to be recalibrated. But why would an innocent person ask, hey,

so did I pass? Would an innocent person, you can ask your listeners. If you told the truth on a polygraph test, why would you have to ask, did I pass? We asked you, did you rob the bank last week? And you said, no, you wouldn't turn around and ask, did I pass? Because you know you didn't rob the bank, the examiners take, and Payne's working on what comes next. But now you know what we know as far as the results. From here, we're going to pivot a little bit. Not that long ago, another tip came in regarding Joseph's truck.

This individual reached out to Payne to let him know that someone close to her saw someone else in Joseph's truck around the time he went missing. She saw someone in the same area where Joseph's vehicle was parked. And she thought that it was strange that he ended up missing. I'm probably one of the only people that she's told.

I asked her, well, why haven't you said anything? And she got quiet. I'm a little bit nervous to say anything to her because so much bad things have happened to people in Nome. And I believe that she doesn't want to get involved because maybe she could be targeted. She's the only one with that kind of information. And I told her, you're the only one who knows.

You should say something. And she got quiet. I think she was afraid to get involved. This person ended up missing. And I said, so you saw him out there and driving a vehicle? And she totally denied everything. I want to say his name is the Piscoya. The only person that they were talking about was him.

She saw him. She saw him out there. And I think... Who's him? Jake. We've heard a lot of stories about Joseph's truck moving, other people driving it, to the point where it seems like it was almost teleporting that weekend. It's messy. It's hard to know which tip to follow.

But we've never stopped talking to witnesses who may or may not have seen the truck moving that weekend. Sometime last year, Payne called Nick Gray, Kim's ex-husband. Hey, this is Payne. Are you aware of the disappearances of Florence Okpialik and Joseph Balderas? Uh, Joseph Balderas other than what's been on the news. That's all I know. Just whatever was reported. But uh, anything else I can help you with? I remember you, I know.

I don't need to talk about anything with you at this point. We're done talking. Thank you. Phone ringing Your call has been forwarded to voicemail. The person you're trying to reach is not available. At the tone, please record your message. But then something unexpected happened. Nick's sister called Payne and what she said flipped everything.

Hey, is this Nick? Speaking, correct? Yeah, I wanted to talk to you about Joseph's truck. Oh, is this that, uh, what's his name? Doing a, uh... The podcast? The podcast. Yes.

Where do I start? Um, what about his truck, like? What do you move? I was told that she thinks that you moved his truck. I didn't touch his truck, no. Why would I? I don't even know the guy. I wouldn't even feel comfortable touching it.

Why would she say something like that, you think? You would have to ask her. I don't know. Is that surprising to you? I haven't talked to my sister in a while, so. Did you know Kevin? I knew Kevin, yes. I know Kevin. Correct. I used to be married to Kimberly Piscua at the time she was my girlfriend.

We were driving on the Council Road heading back to Nome, and I noticed Joseph Boulders' truck. I seen Joseph Boulders in the car. I couldn't recall who was with him. I don't recall. And they were heading towards council. What day would that have been? Well, man, it's been so long I don't even know. But it was that weekend he went missing?

It was before he went missing though. That Saturday or Sunday we took a ride towards council right where his truck was parked. I noticed it right there. As we passed that truck, we ended up stopping at East Fork because they were there to herd the musk ox. At East Fork Bridge,

one of the lonely killing twins was at the, underneath the bridge, in the river. Mikey and John, I don't know what they were doing. I don't know if they were fishing or whatnot, and then we went about our way. Yeah, the bridge is a little bit further past, right where Joseph O'Hirson's truck was parked.

The bridge is, I don't know, about half a mile from where his truck was parked, I'd say. I don't know too much about it. I tried to stay out of it. My main focus, my main focus, because I have kids with Kimberly and Descoria, my main focus is my three kids. name is D'Sclair. My main focus is my three kids. Were these kids of yours the ones that were supposed to be on the beach with Christine that day? As we were driving out of town Saturday, I didn't notice my

kids on the beach, but I wasn't really paying attention. At the time, me and Kim were having a difficult time focusing on what's in the best interest for our kids. Today, now, we communicate very well for the best interest of our kids. Right. You said that you saw someone in Joseph's truck with him. Yes, yes. Male or female? Yes. Oh, definitely a male.

I just don't know who. I can't remember who. Even my current wife doesn't remember me talking about it. I just can't picture the face. I don't know who it was. When all that was going on, my communication with the Pascua family was very, very minimal. Payne hit a brick wall when he tried to call Nick back. So he came up with a plan.

Hello? How are you doing? I'm doing, how about you? I'm doing pretty good. the plant. From my perspective, it looks like he has something to hide or he knows a particular detail. He's not being truthful about that because every time I had him, I would ask him about it. You know, when it was about pain, he always gave me that cold shoulder and not give me that. He's not going to talk about it. These were his words that he would say to me, I'm not going to get into this with you. He knows that I can get it out of him, but when he tells me that, I don't want to interfere with what they have going on because their babies, I mean, their kids are thriving, they're doing good. But you also have Joseph Balderas's family

going on 10 years, not knowing what happened to their son in about one month. I know. I would be doing anything and doing everything if it was you in that situation. one month. I've heard and from working at the police department for almost five years, you kind of catch on that, you know, a loud question, but you want something out. I feel in the bottom of my heart he's not being fully honest about it. He knows something. I always felt like that about him.

So here's my idea. I think that you should call him right now on three-way. I will be on mute and you just tell him that I called you. I just called him. I would just be curious as to how he even reacts to it. I don't feel comfortable talking to him. He just kind of worried me when he called and said, hey, I talked to your brother earlier, and I automatically went for fucking going on, you know? I only know him from the podcast. Mm-hmm. And, you know, I, you know...

What happened? Stop. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. And, you know, I, you know, what happened? Hold on, hold on, hold on. No, I... This guy is really, really, really going on. Block him, just block him. Block him. No! I have nothing to hide. I don't want to talk about the guy.

I don't, I don't want to talk about the guy. I don't want to talk about him. He's a truck. I'd like to be just being your sister. I'm concerned. Ah. I don't want to talk about him. Do I have anything to be concerned about? No, I think you have nothing.

Do I need to defend my brother in any way? There's nothing to be concerned about with me. I'm safe at the safest gift. Okay. I'm more than safe. I'm beyond safe. I've been taking care of an entire community, me and another individual for the past six, seven months. I'm not, yes, I know that. It's seven months. Okay? I'm not, yeah, I'm not gonna talk. I can't speak on it. I wasn't there. I wasn't there.

So I can't speak on any of that. And I'm not going to. You keep mentioning the truck. Yeah. Stay tuned. And remember, you can follow us at Up and Vanished on Instagram and be sure to follow Payne Lindsay at Payne Lindsay on Instagram. And if you want to discuss any season or any episodes, feel free to hop on our Discord.

Thanks for listening. Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun is a production of Tenderfoot TV in association with Odyssey. Your host is Payne Lindsay. The show is written by Payne Lindsay with additional assistance from Mike Rooney. Executive producers are Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay. Lead producer is Mike Rooney along with producers Dylan Harrington and Cooper Skinner. Editing by Mike Rooney and Cooper Skinner with additional editing by Dylan Harrington. Supervising producer is Tracy Kaplan.

Additional production by Victoria McKenzie, Alice Konick Glenn, and Eric Quintana. Artwork by Rob Sheridan. Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Mix and mastered by Cooper Skinner. Thank you to Oren Rosenbaum and the team at UTA, Beck Media and Marketing, and the Nord Group. Special thanks to all of the families and community members Rosenbaum and the team at UTA, Beck Media and Marketing, and the Nord Group. Special thanks to all of the families

and community members that spoke to the team. Additional information and resources can be found in our show notes. For more podcasts like Up and Vanished, search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app, or visit us at tenderfoot.tv. Thanks for listening.