Up First from NPR - BONUS: Trump facing federal charges

Episode Date: June 9, 2023

Former president Donald Trump has been indicted on federal criminal charges related to classified documents found at Mar-a-Lago. He's expected in federal court in Miami on Tuesday.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

This is a special bonus episode of Up First on the federal criminal indictment of former President Donald Trump. I'm Ami Martinez. And I'm Asma Khalid. Trump faces charges related to classified documents found at his Florida resort. Some of those allegations include conspiracy and false statements. He's due in federal court in Miami on Tuesday. NPR Justice Correspondent Carrie Johnson has been following this story and she joins us now to help us understand the latest. Carrie, it's great to have you with us. Thank you. Happy to be here. So how is Donald Trump himself reacting to this indictment? Trump told the world about the FBI search of his Florida home back in August 2022, and he told the world again last night that he had been notified about the indictment.

Trump says he is a, quote, innocent man. He says it's a dark day for the U.S. And he called these charges political interference because they're coming in the middle of his campaign for the White House in 2024. So what happens next? What's the sort of next step in this legal process? Donald Trump has been summoned to show up at the federal courthouse in Miami at 3 p.m. on Tuesday. His lawyer, Jim Trustee, told CNN last night that Trump will not be arrested, but he might go through processing at the courthouse and deal with other red tape behind the scenes. Over the next few days, the U.S. Marshals Service and the Secret Service are going to do a lot of planning to make sure that courthouse is secure. All right. That's NPR's Carrie Johnson. Thank you so much.

My pleasure. Joining us now is NYU law professor and former Defense Department special counsel, Ryan Goodman. Ryan, why do you think prosecutors sought an indictment in Florida instead of Washington? It's a great question. It basically boils down to, I'd say, two factors. One is it's definitely true that the jury poll is not as favorable to the prosecutors in Florida, but place in New York because there are more Republican voters there, it's just not a factor that the law is going to recognize as legitimate for the prosecutors either. So they can't really take that into account. And then the second is the law basically requires the prosecutors to bring the case in the jurisdiction where the criminal conduct occurred,

a bunch of this criminal conduct that's alleged occurred in Florida. If they try to bring it in D.C., they might succeed, but if they got it wrong, there's a good chance that the entire case gets thrown out just on that basis. So even if the documents went from D.C. to Florida, it's better to file those charges in Florida. Yes, and there's also this quirk within the legal system that in D.C. there's odd case law, it's not representative of the rest of the country, that says if it's actually for an obstruction charge, they say do not bring the charge in the place

where the obstruction was targeted, like the National Archives or the grand jury that was meeting there. You have to bring it where the conduct of the obstruction occurred. The bulk of that is obviously in Mar-a-Lago. So, I think that- So, Palm Beach County, possibly, instead of Miami? That's right. So, that would be an open question as to which part of Florida, but that's right. It would at least, at a minimum, need to be in that state. Trump is expected to appear in court Tuesday in Miami.

How is that process going to go? How similar might it be to what we saw in New York? I think it's going to be very similar to the process in New York in the sense that they want to be showing that Trump is treated like other defendants, but at the same time with hyper heightened security. So he's unlike other defendants in that sense, and other defendants, but at the same time with hyper heightened security. So he's unlike other defendants in that sense, and other defendants don't come with a secret service. So I think that's the only unusual part that we'll probably see, and then he'll have his opportunity to plead. Now, many others have faced similar charges, but the circumstances in this case are very unique. Does that help or hurt the defense? So I've actually looked at every single case that the Department of Justice has ever brought in the last like 20 plus years for the Espionage Act into this particular provision.

And I have to say, the alleged conduct for Trump is in the top quartile of the most egregious cases. So I think it's going to, that's why it's a very strong case for the prosecutors to bring. I think that in a normal situation, the person would plead and try to get a very minimum sentence, which that can also happen with the way in which our system works. All right. NYU law professor Ryan Goodman, thanks a lot. Thank you. For more now on the political implications of this indictment, let's bring in NPR senior political editor and correspondent Domenico Montanaro. Good morning, Domenico. Hey, Asma.

So Trump is running for president, to state the obvious. He is the leading Republican candidate to possibly get his old job back. And thus far, I will say not much has affected his trajectory. So why would this moment be any different? Well, we can't know for certain what's going to happen, but we know what's already happened. And amazingly, this is not Trump's first indictment. You know, after the one in New York stemming from those hush money payments to women he'd allegedly had affairs with, his hand only got stronger in the GOP. That was also true after the FBI searched his home in this very case. And even after he was found liable for sexual abuse and defamation of the writer E. Jean Carroll, who was awarded millions of dollars. You know, Trump has spent years, almost a decade now,

undermining the Justice Department and the FBI, saying they're politically motivated and out to get him. That's been amplified by conservative media, and it's insulated him somewhat in this GOP primary fight. So what's been the reaction from the, and it's insulated him somewhat in this GOP primary fight. So what's been the reaction from the Republican rivals who trail Donald Trump? Some, some have been critical of Trump. You know, former Arkansas Governor Asa Hutchinson put out a statement last night saying that Trump has become a distraction and should end his campaign. Before this came out, of course, his former vice president, Mike Pence, said of Trump that anyone who puts themselves over the Constitution should never be president of the United States. Probably the most hotly critical of Trump has been former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie.

Here he was in New Hampshire at his kickoff event. who never admits a mistake, who never admits a fault, and who always finds someone else and something else to blame for whatever goes wrong, but finds every chief rival, and South Carolina Senator Tim Scott both sided with Trump. They called what's happening the, quote, weaponization of the Justice Department and said that they believe there's been a double standard. Vivek Ramaswamy, the tech entrepreneur who's also running, even vowed to pardon Trump if he wins. And I think we can expect to hear more of that. Republican strategists I talked to think that in the short term, this could actually help Trump again in the primary. But in the long run, maybe, maybe if candidates make this argument, he could start to be seen as too chaotic and too weak a candidate against Biden. But we're not there right now. You know, Domenico, I realize that it is impossible to fully assess how this all could shape the 2024 election, but it is truly unprecedented. So I'm curious what

your analysis is. I mean, how do you think this might shape what voters think about him? Well, you know, take a step back. It's really remarkable. I mean, we have a candidate, a former president who's now under a pair of indictments with trials potentially stretching into next year, or at least legal proceedings. And these aren't even the only potential charges Trump is facing. You know, there's still the case in Georgia about Trump's scheme to overturn the election results and another federal one into his role into the January 6th riot at the Capitol. And if Trump is convicted and faces any jail time, he can still run for president and remain on the ballot even if he's convicted of a felony. He wouldn't be able to vote in Florida, though. This is a very strange place for the country to be in and not one I think most expected that we would be.

Very strange indeed. NPR senior political editor and correspondent Domenico Montanaro, thanks so much. You're welcome. A number of Republicans have been quick to react to the indictment of the former president, House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, jumped to his defense, calling it a, quote, grave injustice. But some key Republicans, like Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, have been noticeably silent thus far. So the key question here is how will the broader GOP deal with the fact that its 2024 frontrunner is facing federal charges? To help us unpack

that question, we are joined now by conservative columnist Jonah Goldberg. Good morning. Good morning. So Trump is now the first former president in U.S. history to face federal charges. He is also, though, running for re-election. So what does this all mean for that election campaign? Oh, it means everything is going to be uglier and stupider for a little while. You already saw that, you know, sort of the canary in the coal mine of American political dysfunction is, of course, Twitter. And so you saw that last night with an enormous number of people

getting way ahead of the facts, you know, as Kevin McCarthy did. And the only two Republican presidential candidates to actually take a different tack other than this is a political, you know, witch hunt and all that nonsense were Chris Christie and former Arkansas governor Asa Hutchinson, which I think is at minimum a good sign, right? I mean, because what you need is you need some oxygen out there to actually have an argument. And if the entire GOP rallies around this idea that this is a political prosecution against Biden's leading political opponent, it leaves no room for any

Republican to have to defend their position, to have an argument, to deal with uncomfortable facts in internal conversations on the right. And so I'm all in favor of anything that smashes up that sort of intellectual or ideological monopoly. So I want to ask you a little bit more about what the indictment means for Trump's Republican primary challengers, you know, specifically for Florida Governor Ron DeSantis. He seemed to be Trump's biggest rival for the GOP presidential nomination. He put out a tweet decrying what he called the, quote, weaponization of federal law enforcement. Yeah, so I think it's very interesting. We have three different major Republican candidates running who are critical of Trump. One is Chris Christie, who's going all in, Trump the man, Trump the legend, everything about Trump, Trump's family, all is fair game for Chris Christie.

Mike Pence says that the administration that he worked in, he just won't call it the Trump administration, was super terrific, awesome. Right, which he was vice president of. His administration was great, but January 6th was very, very bad. That's Mike Pence's position. And Ron DeSantis is going after the administration, but not the man. He's saying that Trump's record fell short on what he promised and DeSantis can deliver the things that Trump only promised, a wall, immigration stuff, all that kind of thing. And so the different strategies have to do with the fact

that they're going after different voters. DeSantis wants to get about half of the coalition that is in favor of, that is, likes Trump, is not the diehards. They're the ones who are like, they rally to him when the press picks on him. They rally to him, you know, after that Mar-a-Lago search, but they're, they're not that hardcore shoot them on Fifth Avenue base. And that's the question is how many of those voters can these guys pick off during a rally around Trump moments? All right. That's conservative columnist Jonah Goldberg. He's editor in chief of The Dispatch. Thanks so much.

Great to be here. This has been a special bonus episode of Up First on the federal criminal indictment of former President Donald Trump, along with Asmahalad Amin Martinez. You can stay with NPR.org for continuous coverage of this story as it develops. And of course, join us again on Monday for Up First here in this feed or wherever you get your podcasts.