Up First from NPR - China's Counter-Tariffs; CEOs Respond to Market Uncertainty; Trump's Deportations

Episode Date: April 12, 2025

China's 125 percent tariffs will hit U.S.-made goods today. We'll look at the view from China on President Trump's trade war. Plus, we'll hear from American business leaders dealing with this uncertain economy. And we'll hear the latest on the deportation cases of foreign nationals who were in the U.S. legally.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

China's response to President Trump's massive tax on their exports, a tariff of 125% on US goods. China's countermeasures go into effect today. I'm Scott Simon. I'm Ayesha Roscoe and this is Up First from NPR News. The raging tariff war between the US and a key trading partner China is escalating. We'll give you the view from China. Also, if you're feeling a little anxious about the economy, you've got something in common with some of America's most powerful CEOs. We'll tell you what's making them nervous.

Plus a look at the Trump administration's efforts to deport foreign nationals who are in the US legally. So please stay with us. We have the news you need to start your weekend. This month, Shortwave is diving into the science of psychedelics. Chances are, you've heard of drugs like LSD and magic mushrooms or psilocybin. Now some researchers are making new drugs inspired by psychedelic compounds with a key difference. They're taking out the trip. We just move things around a little bit here and there.

Hear about how it works on Shortwave, the science podcast from NPR. The world's two largest economies are in a pitched trade battle. The US and China have ratcheted up their tariffs on each other's exports into dizzying triple digits. And, Piers, John Rewitz joins us from Beijing. John, thanks for being with us. Happy to be here. How did things get to this point? Well, it started with those reciprocal tariffs on Liberation Day.

Trump imposed tariffs on countries from around the world, of course And China was hit with a 34% levy Beijing was less than pleased about it So two days later China matched that with a tit-for-tat 34% tariff on US imports Trump didn't like that. He added 50% on top of it China responded with 50% Trump added more China responded with 50%. Trump added more. China responded. So by the end of the week, the base tariff on Chinese imports into the United States was 145%. And US products entering China now get hit with a 125% tariff. It was a dizzying upward spiral.

And these are crippling numbers. And a lot of people are certainly wondering any end in sight. Yeah there's no end in sight to the acrimony at the moment but Beijing did something kind of interesting on Friday when they increased tariffs that last time to 125%. They said they were done playing the tit-for-tat game so with tariffs at that rate they said US products are no longer competitive in China and if Trump continues to raise tariffs on Chinese goods, it would be a quote joke. And China just wouldn't match them. Now China is not going to roll over. Officials in Beijing said they will continue to protect their rights and interests. So perhaps it's a dual signal, you know, restraint

on one hand on the tariffs, but also kind of a don't mess with us signal. Experts do say there does come a point, you know, when raising tariffs further just doesn't do anything. And these tariffs are already sky high. Victor Gao is with the Beijing-based think tank, the Center for China and Globalization. In my best judgment, it means China-U.S. trade will grind to a complete halt, meaning there will be no more trading between China and the United States. John, is that what you hear from companies and exporters too? Well, there's a lot of confusion and caution now.

Things have been moving at such a high speed. A few weeks ago, your colleague, Morning Edition host Steve Inskeep was here. He went to a city called Iwu, which is famous for trading, and talked to a woman there named Nicole Zhang, who sells hairpins and claw clips for the hair. We caught up with her. So she's saying that she had an order from February, which she previously told us was for Target. The deposit still hasn't been paid on that.

Everybody's just waiting to see what happens. She's putting on a brave face though. She thinks this whole thing is gonna be temporary. Will it be? I mean, do we know where we go from here? We don't. It's hard to imagine the world's top two economies not doing trade with each other.

Trump says he's willing to talk and that China wants to do a deal, but hasn't called him. China says it's open to talks, but they have to be conducted on the basis of mutual respect. And so it's unclear where things go from here. It doesn't seem like conditions are right for talks or a breakthrough.

Maybe it'll take some economic pain from these terrorists before either side decides they want to get together and have these conversations. And Piers Johnrowich in Beijing. Thanks so much, John. You're welcome, Scott. ["The New York Times"] Welcome Scott. President Trump's sky-high tariffs on Chinese imports are making many Americans nervous.

Might have noticed some people stocking up on things, fearing price hikes are just around the corner. Or maybe like the CEOs of top American companies, you've been watching the convulsing stock market wondering when things will settle. And to our business correspondent, Maria Aspen joins us now. Maria, thanks for being with us. Good morning. Please catch us up.

Well, it was, as you noted, a pretty turbulent week. As everyone tried to figure out what's going to happen with President Trump's tariffs, by Wednesday, the stock and bond markets were freaking out, to use the technical term. And then Trump abruptly backed down on some of his steepest tariffs, announcing a 90-day pause. But he did continue escalating a trade war with China.

And even with the pause on some tariffs, investors and businesses soon realized that they still have to face new taxes of 10% on almost everything they import. So as all of this was happening, CEOs of the country's biggest companies had to go out and talk about all of it in public on their previously scheduled earnings calls with analysts. Here's one example of how that went from Wells Fargo CEO Charlie Sharpe yesterday. It is a volatile time. It is a time of unknowns. Again, we're trying to be as clear as we can about what we think today.

So to quote the late defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld, businesses are facing a lot of unknown unknowns. As is everyone right now. How does this ripple through the business world? Well, first of all, we'll probably just buy less stuff. And that has a direct impact on consumer facing businesses. Take airplane tickets, for example. Scott, if you or I get worried about a recession, we might decide not to buy tickets or to not

take that summer vacation. And in fact, that seems to be what's happening. Delta Airlines, for example, it had a great start to 2025. In January, it told investors that this would be its best financial year ever. But by Wednesday, Delta canceled that forecast. And this is what CEO Ed Bastien told CNBC. We're in uncharted, unprecedented uncertainty when you look at what's happened and the pivot so quickly to this self-inflicted situation.

Now Bastien said some of that uncertainty is affecting consumers, but Delta also sells a lot of tickets to business travelers. And when businesses don't know what to expect, they also tend to pull back on spending. And those business spending decisions affect us all, don't they? Yeah, in a lot of ways. I mean, some are obvious. When businesses don't want to spend money in a lot of ways. I mean, some are obvious. When businesses don't want to spend money, they don't hire. They don't open new offices.

Maybe they have layoffs. And of course, that's a big deal. But there are also these more hidden decisions that still trickle down to consumers. For example, if big companies and private investors get worried about the future, they're going to take fewer risks. They'll cut back on investing with startups

or lending to small businesses. And if those startups and small businesses can't get money, they can't grow and produce new products and services we all might use. So these are the sorts of business decisions that can affect consumers and the entire U.S. economy months or years down the line, which means that all of this vague uncertainty

can lead to a lot of potential long-term consequences. And there's Murray Aspen. Thanks so much for being with us. Thank you so much. The Trump administration's move to deport immigrants who are in this country legally is getting a lot of legal pushback. This week the case of Mahmoud Khalil came into focus in a Louisiana courtroom. The pro-Palestinian activist and Columbia University graduate student is being accused

of anti-Semitism. His is not the only high profile case getting attention this week. NPR's Adrian Florido joins us. Adrian, thanks for being with us. Thank you, Scott. What did the judge say? Well, she said that the Secretary of State Marco Rubio had the authority to order someone deported based on his determination that that person is a threat to essentially the foreign policy interests of the United States and that she had no authority to challenge that decision. This is based on a rarely used law enacted during the 1950s red scare that allows the Secretary of State to order someone personally deported if that person's presence in the

US puts the nation's foreign policy goals at risk. The Trump administration has said that fighting anti-Semitism around the world is one of its goals. So when agents from the Department of Homeland Security came to Rubio with a file on Mahmoud Khalil's activism, Rubio said he determined that his protests were anti-Semitic. And he said if he allowed Khalil to stay in the country, it would send a message that the U.S. tolerates anti-Semitism, which would then undermine its attempt to fight it everywhere else in the world. And that is why he said Khalil had to be deported.

And what did Mahmoud Khalil's lawyers say? Well, that accusation was absurd. In court they said that Khalil is not anti-Semitic and they questioned what facts Rubio relied on to decide that his protests were anti-Semitic. But the judge said that the statute is very clear. As long as Rubio makes the determination himself, she cannot question it. What about Khalil's rights to due process and freedom of speech? Well, those are some of the big questions in this case. The only thing the

Secretary of State has to do to kick someone out of the country is to determine that their presence harmed US foreign policy in some, you know, undefined way. This is one of Khalil's lawyers, Bahar Asmi, after the ruling yesterday. There's no stopping at Mahmoud Khalil. There's no stopping at just pro-Palestinian protesters. Next, it could be LGBTQI activists under some pretext that interferes with our foreign relations with Russia, racial justice activists, anyone.

He said it's a very aggressive strategy that if left unchecked could become very dangerous. And that's why he and the rest of the legal team from Mahmoud Khalil are fighting so hard to appeal this decision. If they have to, they're going to go all the way up to the federal court system through the federal court system, excuse me, to prevent Colleal's deportation. For now, he's still in detention though as his lawyers figure out their next steps. And briefly, Adrian, the Supreme Court ruled on the case of Kilmer Abrego-Garcia, who was mistakenly deported to a Salvadoran prison.

How does this fit into the question of executive power? Well, legal experts are asking, if the government is allowed to get away with something like this, what is to stop it from rounding up other people who, like Abrego Garcia, had legal authorization to be in the U.S. and expelling them without due process. That's why his lawyers are trying so hard to force the government to bring Abrego back. And here's Adrian Florido. Thanks so much. Thank you, Scott. Thank you, Scott. And that's up first for Saturday, April 12, 2025. I'm Scott Simon.

And I'm Ayesha Rasco. Martin Patience produced this podcast with help from Fernando Nara Roman and Jordan Marie Smith. Deepar Vaz edited along with Melissa Gray, Raphael Nam, Vincent Nhi, Miguel Macias, and Martha Ann Overland. Andrew Craig is our director with expert support from technical director Andy Huther, and engineers Jay Sizz, Zach Coleman, and David Greenberg. Our senior supervising editor is Shannon Rhodes, Evie Stone is our executive producer, and Jim Kane is our deputy managing editor.

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