Up First from NPR - Dave Chappelle on free speech and the purpose of comedy | NPR’s Newsmakers

Episode Date: April 15, 2026

In this bonus episode of Up First, we’re sharing the latest episode of NPR’s Newsmakers, featuring comedian Dave Chappelle. The provocative comedian and architect of Chappelle’s Show is one of the biggest names in comedy. Now in arguably the most successful chapter of his life and career, he views himself not just as an entertainer -- but as a professional processor of events and experiences. He describes comedians as 'the nation's kidney' -- an essential organ for processing the raw experiences of life. Chappelle believes that function is one shared by comics and journalists -- they both process events and help audiences make sense of the world. That conviction is why he recently invested $15 million into the infrastructure of WYSO, the public radio station in his hometown of Yellow Springs, Ohio.  In this conversation, Chappelle tells host Michel Martin why free speech is so important to him, and why he refuses to let public expectations dictate his art. NPR's Newsmakers is where you'll find NPR's biggest interviews. Follow the show wherever you listen to podcasts or subscribe and watch on NPR’s YouTube channel.See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Hello, this is Michelle Martin with a special episode of Up First, a conversation from our sister's show, NPR's Newsmakers, where we interview some of the most influential people of our time. You can watch the show on NPR's YouTube channel or search for newsmakers wherever you get your podcast. Our guest today is comedian Dave Chappelle. My favorite part of my evolution was when I quit. Do you feel like your job is to be? provocative? No, I don't, I don't court it. I just don't flinch from it. But if you're a person that's very angry or passionate about something and you feel like you have to police comedy to get your point across, you should assess your point. Dave Chappelle is one of the most influential

stand-up comedians of our time. He's known for pushing the boundaries of what it's okay to say in public. He also uses his influence to advance the causes he believes in, in his art, and in his community. Now, you probably know that, but what you may not know is that he lives here in Yellow Springs, Ohio, and that's where we begin our conversation. Thank you for having us. Oh, man, what an honor. What an honor. Tell us where we are. Well, this is my future offices for my production company in what they call the old union schoolhouse in Yellow Springs, Ohio, which we have just completely renovated for our local NPR. affiliate, WISO.

Is it too strong to say that you saved the station? Save the station, no. I think the station would have survived and hopefully thrive without me. But what I did achieve is I kept them here in Yellow Springs. So our NPR affiliate has a very special relationship with the community. It's like our lifeblood. It's a connective tissue for our community. So if they had left, we would still listen, but it would have been demoralizing for us if they were to have to do that.

And they had reached an impasse where they had got independence from the university. They used to be affiliated with Antioch. And they wanted to stay in town, but there was nothing available. The building was in disrepair. This place was in. This place was a shambles. But, you know, when I was growing up, this building was vibrant. like a municipal building.

You know, they would do, people would come here to pay their power bill and stuff like that. And then as the years went on, it had a few other purposes, but it just kind of, you got run down.

Like most of the Midwest, it just kind of was looking for a new purpose. It was not an expensive building to buy. It was an expensive building to fix. Oh, yeah.

But it was worth every penny. Like, remind us if you would, because some people know your story, but everybody doesn't. Why Yellow Springs is so important to you? And you live here now. I live here. I've been living here since like 2000. And you live, live here. This is not your summer place. Like you live live here. Yeah, like my only homes are here. But I have many homes here. I'm from D.C. Both my parents are. But before I was born, my father worked at Antioch University. My mother worked at Wilberforce. They came

back to D.C. I was born. And then maybe two years into my life, they separated. And my father moved back here. So I don't have many memories of them married, but he was very present in my life, and I would spend holidays and vacations here with him. So I guess I've always associated this place with relaxing. And around 90, 98, he passed. He was ailing for a while. So for a year, I would drive back and forth from New York to Ohio. And at that time, there wasn't a hotel here.

There was nowhere to stay. And so I ended up buying a house. It was a small place. And so I could see my dad out. And then when he passed, I left New York and moved into the house. and kind of packed up show business and didn't go back to New York until I did Chappelle's show.

But that's, I've just been here ever since. Yeah, but you could live wherever you want. This is like a heart place for you? Yeah. Well, I think early at that time in my career, I didn't know that I'd do as well as I did. And I figured I should build a lifestyle for myself that I can afford for a while

so I could be more adventurous with my career. Hmm. And, uh... Well, I've also heard you say, that you can feel normal here. Without question. What is that? Tell me what that means.

Nobody here really pays attention to what I'm doing out in the world. It's hard. I don't know what that's like for them, but I'm just a local here. In a small town, everyone knows everyone anyway. And they knew me poor. They knew me rich.

They knew me at all these different incarnations of myself. So there's just a baseline of normalcy. You know, everyone kind of grew up together. You know, we watched our kids grow older together. And we all kind of segue in life together. Oh, did you hear me so-and-so past? Did you, you know, you look after each other. It's a real feeling of community here.

And you can just go to the store and get your whatever without. I was grocery shopping before I came. Is that right? Yeah. You didn't bring us anything. What did you bring us? Oh, I didn't bring no groceries here. But, I mean, really, you can just go to the store and get a milk and don't have to worry about somebody putting a camera in your face or...

No, people... No disrespect to cameras, but I'm just saying you can just go do your thing without feeling like you have to get dressed up or put on face. I'll take it even further than that. I feel like locally, my privacy is something people feel they need to protect. Like, if someone comes up, like, hey, where's Dejapel? They're not going to... They just look out for me. They look out for my kids.

They look out for my life. I know their families. If they need stuff they can cause. No one here is a complete stranger. That happens very rarely. The town is a tourist town. So there's always people around that I don't know. But I like that as well.

I love people. I'm not living a hermit's life out of here. But the rest of my life is so chaotic and so large and dramatic and palace intrigue and whatever it is that happens to show business. I connect with the simplicity. I do have time to think. I have time to read. I'm time to hang out with my friends.

It's a nice, you know, it's a nice life. It's a nice balance for what my life is in total. In your recent Netflix special, The Unstoppable, you were talking about Yellow Springs, and you said, I'm not a public servant. I'm a capitalist. But you're a capitalist, and you came in to give a major boost

to a public radio station. So is that an investment? Is it a service? Is it a philanthropy? Is it... Maybe all the above. You know, when you think about what a comedian does for a living, people, I'm successful because people take care of me,

because they believe in me, because they buy tickets and get babysitters and go through trouble to come see me. And so I treat it like it's reciprocally special. I love being there as much as they love being. in there. And I think it's important for an artist like me, I'm not putting this on all artists, but for an artist

like me, that relationship is something I'm true to in the sense that it's good that I demonstrate that I don't take it for granted that people are protective of my privacy and my community or that we have a radio

station that tells our stories. Like my son interned at WISO, and it ignited things in his mind and gave him aspirations that he didn't have before. I want to talk all about what his dreams are, but I'm just saying here, this station really does touch our lives. It's not just radio here. Which, you know, there have been major figures, major, okay, I'll just say, rich people who have wrapped their arms around media organizations before, and it has gotten inconvenient for them, or it's misaligned with their other business objectives, and they've changed,

what the organization is. So do you feel confident that if this place becomes inconvenient to you, you're not going to, I don't know, cut the water off or? Oh, here? Yeah. It's church and state. Look, in fact, the only reason I'm doing press around it is because I think the ethical community needs to be amplified.

And I think that the importance of public broadcasting needs to be amplified. But other than that, I like talking I'm a filthy nightclub comic since I'm a kid at my core. That's all I see myself is. And I don't want to say anything that gets them in trouble. I don't want their brand than necessarily be affiliated with me. I don't believe everything they say. They don't believe everything I say.

And that's fine. But I like that NPR exists. Let's say, for the sake of argument, they cover a story involving some of your business interests in town in a way that you don't like. What are you going to do? Across that bridge. I mean, you know, it's happened before. Well, I've heard them say things or criticisms of my work on the station or on NPR.

I mean, it's just, that's part of my job. But the relationship that this place has with our community pre-exist my career. You know what I mean? I'm not, I can't really take that. personally, but in fact, the more separate we are, I think the more comfortable we feel,

but at the same time, you know, it's familial. Do you see journalism and comedy being related in some way? Incredibly. How so? Well, first of all,

journalists determine what the baseline reality is. You guys, there's been times where I could write an act there's just a rebuttal to reporting. Right. Now there's cable reporting, which is a lot more editorializing.

What I like about NPR's reporting is fact-based, but you'll cut the meat. The journalists will ask the question I'm thinking, well, what does that mean? Tell us what that means, and the person will explain something. In the last three, the last 10 years, watching the news is like taking a civics class. because there's so many things that are happening in politics and whatever that are unprecedented. And you have to explain to a person, well, this is why this is unusual. And, you know, whatever the case may be, this contextualization is what comedians do. We're like a nation's kidney.

We help everyone metabolize not just facts, but feelings around facts or ideas. in the last 15, 20 years, our culture and our media has been an avalanche of facts and ideas. It's very difficult to sift through. And at that time, you've seen comedy rise up to the top of all genres because it does help people contextualize. See more about that, about comedy being like the nation's kidneys. I've heard you say this before. You use some language I can't use, but it involved. you know, as you put out, let's put it, how can we put it in ways that won't jeopardize my license?

I'm like, I'm scared, what did I say? We're like, we're helping people process all the, oh yeah, we, and you. We really do. Get it out of your, but say more about that, because the implication then is that you're engaged with the. Dick Gregory wants to describe Richard Pryor's work as brain surgery. or if, you know, I don't want to get on to the specifics of the things I say on stage, but there's a lot of big ideas that people have feelings about, and there's no real context to conversate or rebut them,

and jokes are just a shorthand for all of that. And sometimes it could be as simple as just laughing at something, or making light or something just makes it feel less daunting. Do you feel like your job is, to be provocative? I'm just thinking about the adjectives that are applied to you. Provocative, controversial,

polarizing, any of that? No, I don't court it. I just don't flinch from it. Because at the core, man, again, my core, I'm a filthy nightclub actress. I started in smoky rooms in D.C. And, you know, and black crowds

and white crowds. And people had drinks, and they just would gruff and said, what they said back then. And it was never a big deal. And then as the time went on, people, you know, the culture started trying to renegotiate itself. And that's a great time to be a comedian.

When you say, I'm thinking about the role that a lot of black comics have played for, particularly for black people. A lot of times it's a release. It's too, because a lot of times I think a lot of black people feel the way they have to navigate the world is to keep things stuffed down, right? To be fair.

So I think that a lot of black comedians, their role has often been to give people a release, to let them say the things that they can't say when they're going to their job or whatever, whatever. But now you are international.

I mean, people all over the world watch you, listen to you, certainly not just black audiences, listen to you, and I wonder, do you feel like your job is different now? Well, no. The mechanics are the same.

Now I'm an ambassador of a genre more than I was. I'm an ambassador of American culture more than I was. If I put a show up in Berlin or Vienna and people come and see me, they're coming to see me as an American voice as much as a black one. Even though in the States, they might not see it that way overseas. You know, I got all that flak for doing that festival in Saudi Arabia. But in Saudi, you know, I don't think that festival would have been legitimate if I wasn't there.

Say more about that. Say more about that. I'm not the biggest comedian, but my voice is sought after. In Saudi Arabia, for like the last 20 years, they've been doing, really maybe 15 years,

they've been trying to do comedy shows in Saudi Arabia, underground shows. The jokes were like contraband. These shows would happen in people's homes. They would happen in embassies. You know,

Comedians like Mars Gibrani and guys like this. They've been going over there for years and doing these shows. But privately? Quietly. Quietly. It wasn't, yeah, close to being private. Whatever, I don't know what their laws are. But for the elites, basically, people who...

Not for necessarily the elites. But, yeah, for people who could have a house like there. I don't know what those shows were like because I didn't do those shows. The first time I can remember doing a big show in the Middle East, My opening act was a guy named Mo Amber, who's Palestinian-American, you know, from Houston, but, you know, originally from Kuwait, but he's Palestinian. And Mo was probably on that circuit during the secret shows in Saudi. And, man, the thing that was remarkable was the crowd reaction. Right, right before I went on stage, it was actually funny.

Right before I went on stage, they gave me a list of all the things I wasn't supposed to address. It was like right before I went on stage. So I took the list on stage, and that was the show. I just did the list. Don't talk about the royal families. That's y'all and not just made fun of them. Man, they were screaming. Screaming.

Then after the show, I'm backstage at a meeting greet, and there was all these young comedians from all over the Middle East. They were looking at me, like, I wouldn't even know that they'd know who I am. They couldn't believe I was there. They kept saying, you just say that? You just say that stuff? Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's not a big deal with my mind. But I never forgot that.

And that was in Dubai. Man, in Riyadh, that crowd watching that comedy, the first time the government let them even see something like this, it was like a baby tasting sugar. If I had choked a tiger out, they couldn't have been more impressed. They were screaming.

You think you're creating space for them? I mean, at the very least, and this is not nothing. That must have felt incredibly cathartic if you can't say everything you want to say. But you see somebody model that behavior. Oh, man, you're going to want it. So if you think of all the violence and all the things we export to the Middle East, I think our culture is the best export we got. I didn't feel wrong being up to.

Yeah, I know we were talking about the comedy festival 22.5. You did get a lot of fall. You did get a lot of, I don't know, what you'll pushback or criticism for going among other people. Okay. The intelligence, U.S. intelligence did make it clear that they believe that the Saudis killed Jamal Khashoggi and the embassy in Turkey. You knew that when you went, right? Oh, absolutely. Now, I should tell you.

You had no qualms? I'm going to say that. They asked me to go years before that. And I said, no. for that very reason. Since that time, the United States government does business with the Saudis.

Netflix does business with the Saudis. Everyone, Saudis financed tons of movies. All these things, I know I see them financing boxing matches and all these things. And none of these things were an issue until I went there. Now, why is that? As soon as a black man

can make money off the plantation, they try to tell you that the money is dirty. Well, okay, I'll go home and spend the money with actual slave on it. Where is this clean money you're talking about? But you said you hesitated for years to go, the years you didn't go. So what made the difference for you? Time. Time and circumstance. Time and the wheels of commerce kept turning. You know, if you want to be that pure about money, then stop driving your car, stop eating, don't use your cell phone. Everything is tethered to something

that's just terrible. And I can make a million excuses or reasons to deprive you. To deprive you. that crowd or that show. But man, when I was standing in front of them, I feel like I did the right thing. Our governments are going to ruin everything for us. We'll never get to know each other if we just do everything that they want to do or function on the terms that they want us to function.

And we don't even really know what's going on. Not for sure. Well, artists have always made these decisions. I mean, there were decisions in South Africa under apartheid. You know, there were decisions about whether artists should go there or not go. And then the question is, are you validating the system? or are you resisting it with your presence?

I mean, look, in the middle of apartheid, if I went and played Sun City, I'd say I'm a bad person. But if I went and played Soweto, why would I not do that? You know, okay, I'll give me another example. It's not a good example. I'm doing a show.

There's a police officer killed a black person, and the black community asked me to cancel the show. We don't want artists to come. We want to boycott. Was that in Ohio? Was that in Cincinnati? Yeah, it was exactly what it was. Yeah.

And I respected their wishes. But it's like, or we could have got together and talked about it. You know, and I like, I mean, I'm going to say I like doing it. But I do that often when Minneapolis was going through. And maybe when they, I was in Paris when they killed Alex Pretty. and, man, I booked this show in Minneapolis right after they kill that guy. Like, man, they're going to need talk about this.

And that was nerve-rigging. Another situation was Topps Market in Buffalo. Man killed like 10 black people. 10 black people unprovoked in the grocery store. That happened right after I got tackled in L.A. at the Hollywood boat. But, man, I went to Buffalo, you know. It's not that I think that jokes help, but you can console certain communities with your presence

or just acknowledging that you see them and that you heard with them. You feel like you're lancing the boil in a way for people? Or just what, giving them a place to feel their feelings? Okay, well, one is mutual. The Tops Market thing would be so upsetting that I want to be there. You know, like I have a friend from Buffalo who's, that's their local grocery. So his mother shops there.

Like, thank God she was all right. but it just, it hits close to home. But what about people who feel like you're punching down? Like you're not, you are not a trans person. And there are people who feel like it's different when you are part of the group that has been attacked, hurt, demeaned, et cetera. And then if you're outside of that group and you're having commentary about it, it causes feelings. And what do you say to people who feel that in some occasions you're punching down? Well, okay, this is a conversation that I'm, you know.

You're bored by? Sick of. Yeah, well, not sick of it. I don't want to be dismissive to that sentiment, but I don't know. That's a tough one for me because so much of that was a media phenomenon. What was happening in actual life versus how the media was reporting on my show. I feel like the way they were put on that show was rage baiting to some degree. And there's so many different branches to talk about it.

But I would say that, you know, not everything is for everybody. I don't tell country artists to sing about it if I'm not going to go see a country show. You know, if they bought tickets ever, maybe I'd listen. I don't know. They just never there. I don't even know who's telling them I say these things. Do you feel like your jokes are miscellaneous? represented or you think they're misrepresented

for a purpose which is to get clings whatever? They almost reported on it as if I was doing something other than a comedy show. You know, I could go on and on about this, but I got to be... Interesting. So like you're saying, look, I'm a comedian. Everybody knows that I'm a comedian. So if you

don't like my humor, don't buy a ticket. Reading a joke is a line. different than sitting in a room and hearing it and part of the sitting in the room part part of one of the reasons comedy works is because everyone they bought a ticket clearly they want it to work

they want to have a good time they want to have fun but if you're a person that is very angry or passionate about something and you're afraid that you're going to be misrepresented or misconstrued and you feel like you have to police comedy

to get your point across. You should assess your point. I heard you say at your, when you received the Mark Twain Award, which is a very big honor, and congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. I mean, it's really the highest recognition

that this country really gives somebody in your field. And one of the things that you said that struck me was that if you go to a comedy club somewhere in America, your feelings and thoughts are represented. Every opinion. as a champion. Say more about that, though. Why do you think that matters? Because it's important because every opinion that you could think of is championed in a room.

I don't silence your champions. In fact, I make space for your champions to have a voice. But I'm not your champion. And I am someone else's. You can't silence the team that you don't want. like what they're saying, but you do have the opportunity to go on after them, say your peace. You know, man, this has happened to me so many times my career, where I will say something. I'm like, oh, I don't feel away about it. Yeah, I don't think that they should be silenced, but I can't wait. They're going to put me up next.

And I'm going to have what I have to say about it. I got, you know, I got you. And then afterwards, we go upstairs. We might talk shit, but we, you know, we have, we're fairly cordial. There's people who say things that don't like on time. I go to their kids' birthdays. I go to their funerals. Like, these are the comedians I came up with.

And if I see these same people throughout my life, then clearly they're part of my community. And everyone's in it. There's, you know, trans stand-up comedians. There's every sexuality. every kind of identity, and we support one another. You know, it was interesting, though, you know, we are in a time when, I know you talked about comedians as being like the nation's kidney

who process like all the things that people feel, like all of it, right? The president of the United States says everything. I mean, we are in a moment where the president of the United States expresses things in a way. He expresses things that many people find deeply offensive, He expresses them in a way that many people find deeply offensive and hurtful. And I'm just wondering, does that change your work?

Because it's one thing to be a person who articulates the rawness when the rest of the world is buttoned up. But what about when the rest of the world isn't buttoned up? And I just wonder if that changes things for you. You know what I'm saying? No. And he's a bad example because he has a dismissive short. short-hand about people. Like a comedian who flew up there talking,

it's a much, it's a way different type of interface than, say, being president of the United States because... Oh, it's a totally different job. I credit that, but I'm saying... No, I'm talking about not just the job, the actual interface, how we actually are communicating to people. Well, say more.

Well, the presidency is the presidency. Like, you know, if you vote for the person or not, that's your president. This is an authority figure. This is the top law enforcement. He's the top, you know, he's the executor of all of America's affairs. And I just have to move my crowd. You know, you can opt out of my crowd.

But you shouldn't have to leave America because the president's making the block too hot for you. So, you know, and I did resent that the Republican Party ran on transgender jokes. You know, I felt like they were doing a weaponized version of what I was doing. I didn't, it's not what I was doing. I give an example. This is before I learned the phrase I respectfully declined. And I was on Capitol Hill and everybody ran up to take pictures with me from every congressional office. And I just take pictures with whoever I asked.

I didn't ask how they voted, what their voting record is. And everyone, at first it was like CBC people. And then here comes Lauren Bobert. And she said, can I get a picture? And I'd already taken 40 pictures. I didn't want to say no for everybody. But I didn't know the phrase I respectfully declined. So I just took the picture.

And then she posts a picture before I could even get from there to the show and says something to the effect of just two people that knew that is just too gender. She instantly like weaponized it or politicizing. So I got to the arena and I lit her ass up for doing that. And she should never do that person like me. But now she knows. Now she knows what's up. Yeah.

You do whatever it is you do, but don't get me out of the splash zone of your. Some people think the president's funny. I've had people say this to me. Like I've interviewed people to say, well, what do you like about him? They say, he's funny. Do you think he's funny? Maybe if he wasn't president, I think that was funny. Or maybe at times.

I mean, I do think, you know, that's wearing thin. There are funny things about him. Like if I were to talk about him, it would be funny. But I think what he does is so consequential. And so much of these things, you know, in my lifetime, I've never really seen anything, a phenomenon quite like him. I'm not trying to be political, but it's remarkable. I don't know. I don't know how funny it is.

Do you feel, given the platform that you now have and the fact that people seek you out, does that change your sense of responsibility for the work? No. No. No. For my work, no. I mean, listen, I could personally say, I don't want to ask a tough question. There is a thing that happens when an, when an art. artist gets bigger, that

the platform gets bigger, that there's an expectation that you behave a certain way. And that's kind of the box that I felt for in Chappelle's show. Well, I don't fall for it, but I was overwhelmed by that idea.

It's a lot of responsibility. But I've come to the understanding that, you know, you got to be true to your work. That's the job. And if that makes you big, so be it. But But then you don't, but then what happens is you get big and then you start being true to being big. And that's a mistake.

Stay true to your work. Say what you have to say. If being big informs me in such a way that I feel like I don't want to step on any hands or any blades of grass, I don't want to hurt anybody, then so be it. That's what I decide. But I have yet to make those types of decisions. I don't feel like anything I do is malicious or even harmful. And I think if I did hurt somebody with my husband,

where, boy, they would have been laid that at my feet. I just, it's not doing that. If you feel like your life has had chapters or your career has had chapters, I mean, there was the chapter when you were trying to make it, and then there's the Chappelle Show chapter where you blew up and became like this big cultural figure, and then you took this break and kind of did your own thing. You became known as the guy who walked away from $50 million.

It's like a, you got some of it later, I understand. But, you know, there was that chapter where you took a break and kind of, recalibrated yourself. What do you think this chapter is? What would you say this chapter is? Well, that's a good question. Man, it's a really good question. Okay, for context, like I started doing stand-up when I was 14. So, okay, you think about it a couple ways, right? Your evolution artistically, right? Your evolution professionally, but also just your evolution is like a man. As a funny 14-year-old is so much different than what I've become,

but so much of that was because of life experiences. So the chapter where I'm trying to make it, right, that early chapter, I'm in high school. And then the first big hurdle is the decision to defer going to college. I'm going to go to New York and try to, you know, So then there's like the New York years, right? And there's all the professional milestones and television deals and high hopes and heartbreaks and all that. And then, you know, you meet a girl and they fall in love and then, you know, we have a kid and then I moved back to Ohio and I wouldn't expect them. There's all these personal.

So my favorite part of my evolution was when I quit. And it was the hardest part. I mean, quitting was one part of heart, but then the years after that was another kind of heart. But artistically, and as a guy, there's certain things that I became in that time that I love about myself. And I didn't realize until COVID,

when I was just sitting in the house trapped with all my choices. And I said, these were not bad choices. It was like, you know, it could have been better, but boy, it could have been worse. I like my kids. I like my wife. I like where I live. I like my friends.

I like my community. And I have recourse. Thank God. That was the best. Like 2020 was the first time that I realized that that time had molded me into something that I love. So this time of my life, I feel like I'm like this. I feel like I'm paying my bills for that time of my life. Well, before we let you go,

I noticed that you've been doing shows around the country. I know I went to the one in D.C. And you close by telling your audiences to keep your wits about you and you stay together, will stay sane together, and take care of each other. That's right. And tell me why. You kind of end with a group hug.

Because I feel like, you know, a lot of Americans that don't travel overseas don't really know what it feels like to be an American. You know, you could think you feel somewhere about somebody, but man, when Americans see each other overseas, we give each other like this fight club look, especially if you're overseas or an expat or something like that. There's something we know about the broth that living in this place feels like

that only we really know. and at that time and even more so since that time that I did that set information and the types of things we're hearing every day in the news and seeing around us it's almost like a psychological torture what we're collectively going through the amount of animosity we have for one another and and the anger I can get stuck So that show That night I think I said that because

It did feel so good to be together And because at that time the National Guard I was in D.C. And there was a lot of like local uncertainty Which why I came. It's like you know my hometown is going through it And man the joy And being together

Now you have a fight for that to just sit in a room and not be afraid to get murdered like Charlie Kirk or or or get you know stampeded or trampled or it takes so much courage sometimes just to come see a show and they come and we're together and I feel like the exercise of doing that show it's like people actively trying to stay sane together like let's just stay at it like remember how good it feels will be together, take care of one another, even a smile if that's all you can muster is charity. But man, as much goodwill as you can put out there, it's priceless right now.

And it will get us through this time. It's just terrible, terrible weather. But you don't want you resolve to get so weak that you accept this time as a normal way of being and being together and laughing through things and all these are active steps to healing and getting past it. So I promote that. Deschapel, thank you so much for talking to us. Thank you for talking to me. For more of NPR's Newsmakers, search for the show wherever you get podcasts or watch it on NPR's YouTube channel. Newsmakers, like Up First relies on listeners who value independent journalism and a free press.

Join NPR Plus today to support our work and get perks from the podcast you trust. Go to plus.npr.org. I'm Michelle Martin. Thanks for listening to Up First from NPR.