Up First from NPR - The Future of Ukraine ... and a US Consumer Agency. More on Black Hawk Crash

Episode Date: February 15, 2025

Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskyy appeals to Europe for support as President Trump changes U.S. foreign policy. A tumultuous week at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. More details about the Jan. 29 aerial crash near Washington, D.C.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

World leaders meet in Munich to discuss the fate of Ukraine. Now that President Trump has abruptly changed U.S. foreign policy toward that country's war with Russia. I'm Aisha Rasca. And I'm Scott Simon, and this is Up First from NPR News. Ukrainian President Vladimir Zelensky calls for security guarantees and any peace agreement. Right now Ukraine's army, supported by global aid, thank you so much, is holding back Russia. But if not us, then who will stop them?

We'll have more on that. Plus a tumultuous week at a federal consumer protection agency. And more on last month's fatal plane crash outside of Washington, D.C. So stay with us. We have the news you need to start your weekend. Public media counts on your support to ensure that the reporting and programs you depend on thrive. Make a recurring donation today to get special access to more than 20 NPR podcasts. Perks like sponsor-free listening, bonus episodes, early access, and more. So start supporting what you love today at

plus.npr.org. President Trump has called for a speedy end to Russia's war in Ukraine and is pressing Zelensky for concessions. And here's Ukraine correspondent Joanna Kokissis joins us from Kyiv. Joanna, thanks for being with us. Thanks for having me, Scott. And this has been a very important few days, the Security Conference in Munich, hasn't it, for Ukraine?

Yeah. Scott, it's given Zelensky an opportunity to publicly advocate for his country surrounded by European allies who want to see Ukraine in the strongest possible position going into any negotiations to end the war. And Scott, this is important because the U.S., Ukraine's strongest single ally, is now speaking directly to Russia, the country that invaded Ukraine and continues to attack it. President Trump says he plans to visit Russia. His defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, has poured cold water on two of Ukraine's most important goals, joining NATO and getting back all of its territory occupied by Russia.

And these developments have really unsettled Ukrainians. I've spoken to many who say they feel like the U. US, the country they most admire for its democratic values, is betraying them. And what's President Zelensky's response been? Well, Zelensky admitted that he has a lot of work to do to convince President Trump and his team that Russia is dangerous. Speaking in Munich today, Zelensky said he will not give up pushing for Ukraine to join NATO. He sees this Western alliance as Ukraine's strongest security guarantee against Russia, though he did question why NATO is so cautious around Russian President Vladimir Putin. Right now the most influential member of NATO seems to be Putin because his wings Because his whims have the power to block NATO decisions.

And that's despite the fact that it was Ukraine's army that stopped Russia, not a NATO country. Now the US and other NATO member states are cautious about Moscow because they don't want this war to escalate. Russia is indeed a nuclear power. So Zelensky has tried to use the moment as a call for unity in Europe. And why is unity in Europe such an important theme for Mr. Zelensky? Well, you know, Ukraine is in talks to be a European Union member state. Zelensky wants to tie the EU's fate with Ukraine's, reminding Europeans that it's

Ukraine's army that's holding back Russian troops from further aggression into Europe. And he told them, look, Russia takes advantage of perceived weakness and Europeans must be strong and united. Zelensky echoed President Trump's call for Europe to take the lead in its own security. Europe must decide its own future. We need confidence in our own strength so that others have no choice but to respect Europe's power. And without European army that is impossible. Now European army is not something that can be pulled together very quickly of course.

And you know negotiations are moving very quickly. Talks about how to end this war, this three-year war, set to continue next week when the U.S. Special Envoy to Ukraine, Kyiv Kalach, is expected in Ukraine. And here's Joanna Kokissis in Kyiv. Joanna, thanks so much for being with us. You're welcome, Scott. The Trump administration continues its efforts to shrink the federal workforce. This past week it has taken aim at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.

That's an agency set up after the 2008 financial crisis to make sure banks stick to rules about credit cards, home loans, and other forms of debt. And Piers Laurel Wamsley has been following all the twists and turns at the Bureau. Laurel, thanks for being with us. Hey there, Scott. Catch us up. What's been happening with this agency? Well, there's been a lot of layoffs this week. That's part of Trump's plan to massively reduce the federal workforce. At CFPB, some 150 employees lost their jobs. That's about 9% of the staff. Those cuts were largely folks who'd been at the Bureau for less than four years. One of the employees who lost her job this week was Johanna Hickman, who was an attorney in the Bureau's Enforcement Division. She received her termination notice

at 9 p.m. on Tuesday. And because her work email had already been turned off, it came to her personal email. You know, it's heartbreaking. I think we do exceptional work at the Bureau and I have been honored to serve in this role for the last, you know, over a year and a half. I expected to be here for another 15 years and it's shocking. It's unlawful for one thing and extraordinarily disappointing. And right now essentially all of CFPB's work has been halted. Employees have been locked out of the building and told they can't do any work. And Elon Musk's team, meanwhile, has been given access to the building and to its systems. And where does that leave events now this weekend?

Well, staff are bracing for even further cuts. According to a legal complaint by CFPB's union, they're expecting that perhaps 95 percent of all employees could be fired. A reporter asked President Trump on Monday whether his goal was to have CFPB totally eliminated, and Trump said yes. But for now, a federal judge ruled yesterday that they can't conduct layoffs at CFPB at least through March 3rd, when a hearing is scheduled, and they can't delete any agency data either.

Laurel, remind us, the Bureau was created in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis, but what does it do? That's right, that's when millions of Americans lost their homes due to lax lending standards, and it brought the global economy tumbling with it. The Dodd-Frank Act established the Bureau to prevent such a disaster from happening again.

At a high level, what the Bureau's supposed to do is that it's been tasked by Congress to regulate consumer financial products and services, like credit cards, mortgages, et cetera. So consumer protection responsibilities are now unified under one agency that's tasked with being on the side of the consumer against big banks and financial services companies. And it's really done a lot. I mean, just in recent months, it's made rules capping credit card late fees and overdraft fees. It sued the payment app Zelle and the banks

that operate it saying they didn't protect consumers from fraud. And it sued Capital One for advertising a high-yield checking account that paid close to zero in interest. Why has the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau become such a target for some now? Well, all those actions I just mentioned have made it unpopular with some Republicans as well as big banks and Silicon Valley.

They say the Bureau's too heavy-handed in its regulation, and they argue it's overstepped its authority. And you know, if it wasn't so politicized, CFPB would be an unlikely target for cost cutting. Since its launch in 2011, it's returned more than $21 billion to Americans by means such as returning fees, canceling debt, reducing loans, and it's done that on a pretty small budget for a federal agency. Pete What kind of opposition against this is going on now?

Emma Yeah, there's a lot of legal action happening against these moves, as there is with other actions that Trump has taken. A union representing CFPB employees says the stop work order is unlawful, and it filed a second suit arguing that Musk's team's access to CFPB systems violates the Privacy Act. A key idea they're arguing is the executive branch can't just get rid of an agency created by Congress with all the work it's required to do. So a lot of this is going to play out in court. But for now, there's just no real financial cop looking out for consumers in this country.

And here's Laura Wamsley. Thank you so much for being with us. Take care. You're welcome, Scott. Members of the National Transportation Safety Board have been sorting through black box data for the past two weeks. They're trying to figure out why a Black Hawk military helicopter crashed into a commercial jet above the Potomac River two weeks ago. 67 people were killed.

Now investigators say the helicopter's pilots may not have heard a critical instruction from air traffic control. Aviation reporter David Schaper joins us now. David, thanks for being with us. My pleasure, Scott. I gather this latest information offers some detail on what the Blackhawk helicopter pilots may not have heard. Right.

The National Transportation Safety Board investigators outlined the exact paths both aircraft were flying that Wednesday night. One important thing to note about aviation, which is the safest mode of transportation, is that even experienced skilled pilots often undergo training and retraining and they are tested on their skills. So, the Blackhawk helicopter was on what they call a checkride in which the crew is being tested, other use of night vision goggles and flying by instruments. And they were flying along this familiar corridor along the Potomac while the American Airlines CRJ regional jet was approaching for a landing at Reagan National Airport. Investigators say cockpit voice recordings indicate that an air traffic controller seemed concerned that the helicopter was flying toward the path of the incoming plane

and asked the Blackhawk pilots to fly behind it. Here's NTSB Chair Jennifer Homendy. So the instructions from ATC were to pass behind the CRJ, that transmission was interrupted, it was stepped on. Homendy says the mic in the helicopter cockpit was keyed open for just a second or two, transmission was interrupted. It was stepped on. How many says the mic in the helicopter cockpit was keyed open for just a second or two, but the pilots may have missed the key words passed behind the, that's critical instruction that had the pilots actually heard and followed, this disaster might have been averted.

We've also heard that the helicopter may have been flying too high at an altitude that put it near the path of the plane. Any new information on that? John Sussman Yes. You know, Hamade says the helicopter pilots might not have been receiving correct information about their exact altitude. Hamade says a radio altimeter, which uses radio waves bounced off the ground to measure the aircraft's altitude and information gleaned from a flight data recorder were in conflict and showing different altitudes. We are looking at the possibility of there may be bad data.

We're looking at were they seeing something different in the cockpit that differs from the FDR data, which was radio altimeter. Amandie says it's still not clear why there was erroneous or conflicting data, and the investigation is still in its early stages, but she says this is definitely something the NTSB is focusing on. We've also heard about the speculation that the two pilots just may not have seen each other's aircraft. The crew of the helicopter in particular may have mistaken another plane for the one into which they crashed. What do investigators say about that now? Well, investigators did say that the crew of the American jet did pull up aggressively

just before the impact, indicating that they likely saw the helicopter at the very last moment. In addition, they did confirm that Blackhawk crew was likely wearing night vision goggles, and they acknowledged there is some concern in an area with a lot of aircraft lights and city lights that it could have been difficult to see the airplane. Chair Homendy says the MDSB will conduct a visibility study to try to determine what the pilots could and could not see. Aviation reporter David Schaper, thanks so much. You're welcome, Scott. And that's up first for Saturday, February 15th. I'm Aisha Roscoe.

And I'm Scott Simon. This podcast was produced by Martin Patience with help from Fernando Naro, Samantha Balaban, Elena Twork, and Gabe O'Connor. Our director, director, director is Danny Hensel. He keeps us on track. Our editors were Miguel Macias, Dee Parvas, Nick Spicer, Rafael Nam, Russell Lewis, and Matthew Sherman. Our technical director today, David Greenberg.

Engineering support from Stacey Abbott, Simon Laszlo Jansen, and Arthur Halliday-Lorent. Evie Stone is our senior supervising editor, and Sarah Lucy Oliver is our executive producer. Jim Kane is our deputy managing editor. Tomorrow on The Sunday Story, how advocates for homeless people devise the housing first strategy and why conservative lawmakers oppose it. And for more news, interviews, sports and music you can tune into weekend edition Saturday and Sunday. Why don't they do it Monday and Tuesday too? It's such a good show. On your radio go to stations.npr.org to find your local NPR station.

But on Monday and Tuesday, it's not me and you, Scott. It's other people. You answered it. Okay. They're nice. They're nice. Okay. Thank you. you you you you you you you you..